Why Such Bitterness?

[Mythra]

This is something that I had a great struggle with as a christian also.

 

My dad's still alive and doing well. But, when I tried to evangelize him, he would say -

 

"If there is a God, he gave me this brain for a reason. And this brain tells me much of what's in the bible is not true"

 

He was not going to budge from this position. Ever.

 

And my choice was whether or not to continue to believe a religion that would send my father (a very good man - who has done nothing but mind his own business all his life) to eternal suffering.

 

For God so loved the world. Right.

[dibby]

[The trigger for all of this was attitudes towards my parents deaths. Dad was a dyed in the wool ex-catholic atheist, Mum was a christian. When Dad died there was sympathy and a careful avoidance of any mention of an afterlife, but when Mum died lots of rejoicing about her being in heaven now etc. I got to wonder how a supposedly loving God could condemn anybody non-christian to 'hell'. Sure my dad had his faults, but no more than mum.

 

Sounds like you are developing more compassion than god......Welcome mate; maybe its the damnation issue that causes the most initial doubts? I know that to believe in hell , when I was a christian fundamentalist, meant I had to close my heart to all sorts of people, beautiful friends, and relatives........I was already in hell....it was called evangelical christianity.

[nightflight]

edit

[Ouroboros]

So, out of curiosity, what is causing you to question? If you have any questions for us, we'll be happy to answer them honestly

It's human to have questions.

 

Are you sure you actually could answer the questions we have? That's a pretty big bite to swallow. Are you talking about religious questions, or other kinds?

 

Just for the fun of it, here are some religious questions for you to ponder:

 

For instance, who created God? If the world and the universe is so beautiful and perfect (as religious people claims), and that proves that someone must have designed it, wouldn't God be more beautiful and more perfect, and by the same standards have to have a designer?

 

If God interacts with nature and people, why does he intentionally make some people evil and doomed to hell, by planting a cancer in the frontal lobe of the brain, causing the executive module to stop working, when he just as easily could remove the cancer and make the person a good person and go to heaven? Who's fault is it that a person is evil? The person that have no control of nature, biology and physics, or God that caused the cancer from start?

 

Another question, if Evolution is not true, but we all were created, why did God give men nipples and milk glands? Evolution can explain this phenomenon, while the Bible and Creationism can not.

 

And another question, how can we be so sure the Bible is true, when people wrote it, and people voted on the books to be in it, and we don't even know these people? Who can vouch for their reliability and honesty?

 

Since then the questions have come thick and fast, one leading to another. So I used 'ex-christian' as a search and came up with this site amongst others. I'm still a long way from deconverting, just have lots of questions and looking for answers.

The answers are usually extremely simple, and sometimes that's what scares us. The simple answer is that we don't know. And we have a hard time living with that, so we invent elaborate ideas to explain the things we don't know anything about.

 

Sorry to those people who have thought me judgemental and patronising. I didn't mean to come across like that. My experience of church hasn't been bad but reading through some of the posts I realise that lots of you have cause to be angry.

Well, it sounded like that, but I tried not to take it that way. You'll notice that the people on this site are of a wide variety. Don't make a broad generalization of people, based on the experience of the few. And this is a lesson even many of us need to learn. (It happens to me too!)

[Brutal Brian]

I've been searching the net looking for views from people who are ex-christians because I'm not sure where I stand anymore. What I keep finding is that the views expressed are full of negative attitudes such as bitterness, sarcasm and are often downright insulting to anyone who dares to challenge. On the other hand most of the genuine christians I meet are welcoming, approachable and kind.

You're not doing yourselves any favours. I have issues with the validity of chritianity but would prefer a reasonable, civilised debate.

Any takers?

 

Well when followers of a big sky thing, aka Gawd or All-Ahhhh, do things like this: Committing Violence over Cartoons or Spout off BS they think is what Gawd would defend, then I get vicious.

 

But if someone comes in and calmly or reasonably, preferably both, asks intelligent and thought provoking queries, I will be happy to return them with a response as such.

 

And for the record, we might not be doing any favors with returning hositility with sarcasm(even though it yields humorous results), but you're not doing yourself any either by making assumptions.

 

Having said that, you can draw your own conclusions.

[Guest Pagan Chris]

I am probably repeating some of the responses already posted here, but I would like to give my two cents.

 

The reason why you think ex-Christians are bitter is because you have been conditioned by your Church to believe that Athiests are angry, hateful people. Therefore, whenever you come across an atheist, all you see is the negative and not the positive.

 

Yes, you may find a lot of Christians who appear welcoming on the outside, but as someone already mentioned, it is often a mask. Once you crack through that exterior there is usually something totally different underneath. I find that this is especially true with the "born agains", as they have often turned to Christianity to "cure" some deep seeded anger or unhappiness. They may feel that the Church has made them better, but the problem that drove them to seek salvation is usually still there and eventually will rear its ugly head again. I look at Religion as someone taking aspirin for a chronic illness - the pain may temporarily be gone, bu the illness is still there.

 

The other reason you might see this perceived "bitterness" is because we are severaly outnumbered and often have to be on the defensive when it comes to explaining our positions and beliefs.

 

Lastly, talk about bitterness, but what is it that has caused the most wars over history? Religion, right? When was the last time you saw or heard of a pack of Atheists roaming the country side blowing themselves up or spewing hatred about some other group, like homosexuals? So who are the bitter ones?

[Antlerman]

I've been searching the net looking for views from people who are ex-christians because I'm not sure where I stand anymore. What I keep finding is that the views expressed are full of negative attitudes such as bitterness, sarcasm and are often downright insulting to anyone who dares to challenge. On the other hand most of the genuine christians I meet are welcoming, approachable and kind.

You're not doing yourselves any favours. I have issues with the validity of chritianity but would prefer a reasonable, civilised debate.

Any takers?

Overcoming rape and betrayal by a loved one (the Church) is a process. Anger is part of that process. Everyone here is at different stages. This site is about a support community for people coming out of that, so you should expect to see that. To say we are not doing ourselves any favors is missing the whole point. This site is NOT about convincing people to deconvert. It's a place for ExChristians to find support from one another.

 

However, I do wish to point out that the majority of fundamentalist Christians who do come in here are extremely arrogant and rude to us, almost without exception. We could at a snap of our fingers provide you with link, after link, after link of such displays by a host of said Christians.

 

Your desire to have a discussion with me or anyone else about questions and views are entirely welcome. I would be absolutely happy, in fact would find a great deal of meaning in having a discussion with you about these things - but not a debate.

 

Please ask what ever is on your mind, but if you're looking to debate to prove some ideological position, I'm really tired of the same old rhetoric and closed mindedness that most fundamentalists who come in here offer. But otherwise, welcome!!

[BlueGiant]

Sawitch, I am sorry for your loss. My condolences.

 

Stepping back from the faith and questioning it, that is exactly what led to my deconversion. Questioning and finding the answers that satisfy you is definately a long, tricky, and can be a rather scary process and it sounds like you have a lot of 'em. Can't promise that we have the answers you're looking for, unless you want info on our own experiences, but even if we don't know, someone here will probably be able to point you in some direction that will prove helpful.

 

So, good luck and hopefully you'll find what you're looking for. Seems that the critical thing is to ask in the first place, often times, the answers aren't as important as that.

 

So, ask away.

[Anakin]

The trigger for all of this was attitudes towards my parents deaths. Dad was a dyed in the wool ex-catholic atheist, Mum was a christian. When Dad died there was sympathy and a careful avoidance of any mention of an afterlife, but when Mum died lots of rejoicing about her being in heaven now etc. I got to wonder how a supposedly loving God could condemn anybody non-christian to 'hell'. Sure my dad had his faults, but no more than mum.

 

My father died when I was a teenager. At the time I attended an Assemblies of God church

with my best friend. My father never went to church. I don't remember him ever taking a

stance on it. I don't think he even cared about it. But he was a good man. Loved his

children. Very funny guy. He had his flaws like the rest of us. I was upset and asked my

best friend if he thought dad was in heaven. He told me no. Because my father drank

beer, did not attend church, yada, yada. Needless to say he is not my friend anymore.

 

Stuff like that accumulates over the years and eventually one gets to the point of asking

questions. When the answers finally quench one's fears, the spell is broken and it's over.

That's what it was like for me anyway.

 

I really hope you find the answers you're looking for.

[Rosa Mystica]

I've been searching the net looking for views from people who are ex-christians because I'm not sure where I stand anymore. What I keep finding is that the views expressed are full of negative attitudes such as bitterness, sarcasm and are often downright insulting to anyone who dares to challenge. On the other hand most of the genuine christians I meet are welcoming, approachable and kind.

You're not doing yourselves any favours. I have issues with the validity of chritianity but would prefer a reasonable, civilised debate.

Any takers?

 

Hi sawitch!

 

You know, you remind me a lot of me. Currently, I am also questioning the validity of my faith. And yet, I really don't like it when people go around slamming religions. Yes, this also goes for Christians who do this.

 

If you ever wanna talk, I'm here for ya.

 

And for any CFers who are wondering, I post on that forum by the same name I have there.

 

Rosa

[thunderbolt]

^^^^^

 

Hi Rosa

 

Welcome here. It’s understandable for you to feel that way, especially if you are emotionally invested in any religion. I know I hated it when I was a Christian, because I felt attacked personally instead of viewing it as satire against my beliefs. Hope you find what you are looking for, and also here for ya …

[Anakin]

Hello Rosa M.

 

What is a "CFer"?

[thunderbolt]

Probably ChristianForums.com.

[Asimov]

You know, you remind me a lot of me. Currently, I am also questioning the validity of my faith. And yet, I really don't like it when people go around slamming religions. Yes, this also goes for Christians who do this.

 

I'll stop slamming religions when they stop sucking....hows that for a compromise?

 

 

A CFer is someone from ChristianForums.com

[Rosa Mystica]

^^^^^

 

Hi Rosa

 

Welcome here. It’s understandable for you to feel that way, especially if you are emotionally invested in any religion. I know I hated it when I was a Christian, because I felt attacked personally instead of viewing it as satire against my beliefs. Hope you find what you are looking for, and also here for ya …

 

Heya Thunderbolt!

 

If you don't mind my asking, are you also a Christian Forums member? For some reason, your name sounds vaguely familiar to me. Or is it just my imagination?

 

You view Christian-bashing as a satire against the religion? That's...ummm....a view I've never heard before. Not sure what to make of it...

 

Personally, I hope I find the answers I'm looking for as well. I'm kind of in the same boat as sawitch seems to be- seriously doubting my beliefs, but not sure what to do about it. Mind you, it's looking more and more to me that my crisis of faith is going to end in deconversion (though maybe I'm wrong about this).

 

There. I said it. That was really hard to say.

 

I'm here for you as well.

 

Rosa

 

te]

 

I'll stop slamming religions when they stop sucking....hows that for a compromise?

 

 

A CFer is someone from ChristianForums.com

 

Hmmm...well, to me, "sucking" is in the mind of the beholder. Things that may suck to one person may not necessarily suck to another (and vice versa).

 

If I may ask, why do you think that religions "suck"?

 

Doggone it, I am just no good at this quote thing!

[thunderbolt]

Rosa

 

I am registered there, but not as thunderbolt, and I just didn’t bother to ask someone to change my “faith.” I was never a fan of those forums, even as a Christian.

 

I guess my point is, it’s always a sensitive subject when it’s your own religion that’s been slammed. Although I am not an atheist, I have to say, that the atheists on this forum have no problem taking slams from Christians and other people on atheists. I believe the call it “laughing at yourself.”

 

Also, if you want a serious debate, then try the Colosseum – you will find very serious discussion there on any question you may have. We do get the occasional troll that think us complete idiots, and as such, they get ridiculed for their nonsense. BUT, there are Christians on this forum that is treated with the utmost of respect - as Open_Minded for instance. It’s not difficult, just be kind and respectful and the favor will be returned to you. So go ahead, make use of that section for your questions.

 

I am trying to tell you that it’s hard to fathom, but we have all been where you are at, and right now things looks a lot different from where you *might* ultimately end up. So, don’t be shy …

[Rosa Mystica]

Rosa

 

I am registered there, but not as thunderbolt, and I just didn’t bother to ask someone to change my “faith.” I was never a fan of those forums, even as a Christian.

 

I can understand that. Some people there are extremely intolerant. I'm actually thinking of taking a hiatus from that forum, as it can be poison for the mind.

 

I guess my point is, it’s always a sensitive subject when it’s your own religion that’s been slammed. Although I am not an atheist, I have to say, that the atheists on this forum have no problem taking slams from Christians and other people on atheists. I believe the call it “laughing at yourself.”

 

I guess it really depends on the nature of the "slam". For instance, the tv show "The Simpsons" includes many lines that border on blasphemy, and yeah, some of those are funny. But I don't see stuff like that in the same light that would a remark like "Christians are brainwashed sheep" or something like that.

 

Also, if you want a serious debate, then try the Colosseum – you will find very serious discussion there on any question you may have. We do get the occasional troll that think us complete idiots, and as such, they get ridiculed for their nonsense. BUT, there are Christians on this forum that is treated with the utmost of respect - as Open_Minded for instance. It’s not difficult, just be kind and respectful and the favor will be returned to you. So go ahead, make use of that section for your questions.

 

Debating isn't for me. After spending enough time on CF's General Apologetics forum, I've basically said enough's enough when it comes to debates.

 

I am trying to tell you that it’s hard to fathom, but we have all been where you are at, and right now things looks a lot different from where you *might* ultimately end up. So, don’t be shy …

 

Heh, I am painfully shy! Especially when it comes to talking about my doubts. I don't know where I'll end up. It will likely be in some theistic system (atheism is not for me). Which one it'll be, I really don't know yet.

 

Rosa

 

I am registered there, but not as thunderbolt, and I just didn’t bother to ask someone to change my “faith.” I was never a fan of those forums, even as a Christian.

 

I can understand that. Some people there are extremely intolerant. I'm actually thinking of taking a hiatus from that forum, as it can be poison for the mind.

 

I guess my point is, it’s always a sensitive subject when it’s your own religion that’s been slammed. Although I am not an atheist, I have to say, that the atheists on this forum have no problem taking slams from Christians and other people on atheists. I believe the call it “laughing at yourself.”

 

I guess it really depends on the nature of the "slam". For instance, the tv show "The Simpsons" includes many lines that border on blasphemy, and yeah, some of those are funny. But I don't see stuff like that in the same light that I would a remark like "Christians are brainwashed sheep" or something like that.

 

Also, if you want a serious debate, then try the Colosseum – you will find very serious discussion there on any question you may have. We do get the occasional troll that think us complete idiots, and as such, they get ridiculed for their nonsense. BUT, there are Christians on this forum that is treated with the utmost of respect - as Open_Minded for instance. It’s not difficult, just be kind and respectful and the favor will be returned to you. So go ahead, make use of that section for your questions.

 

Debating isn't for me. After spending enough time on CF's General Apologetics forum, I've basically said enough's enough when it comes to debates.

 

I am trying to tell you that it’s hard to fathom, but we have all been where you are at, and right now things looks a lot different from where you *might* ultimately end up. So, don’t be shy …

 

Heh, I am painfully shy! Especially when it comes to talking about my doubts. I don't know where I'll end up. It will likely be in some theistic system (atheism is not for me). Which one it'll be, I really don't know yet.

[thunderbolt]

^^^^^

 

You don't have to just debate there, you can ask your questions there as well. (I believe.)

 

This forum have not only atheists, but a numer of deists as well. Although, I don't think Deisim is "theistic" by definition.

[Rosa Mystica]

Rosa

 

I am registered there, but not as thunderbolt, and I just didn’t bother to ask someone to change my “faith.” I was never a fan of those forums, even as a Christian.

 

I can understand that. Some people there are extremely intolerant. I'm actually thinking of taking a hiatus from that forum, as it can be poison for the mind.

 

I guess my point is, it’s always a sensitive subject when it’s your own religion that’s been slammed. Although I am not an atheist, I have to say, that the atheists on this forum have no problem taking slams from Christians and other people on atheists. I believe the call it “laughing at yourself.”

 

I guess it really depends on the nature of the "slam". For instance, the tv show "The Simpsons" includes many lines that border on blasphemy, and yeah, some of those are funny. But I don't see stuff like that in the same light that would a remark like "Christians are brainwashed sheep" or something like that.

 

Also, if you want a serious debate, then try the Colosseum – you will find very serious discussion there on any question you may have. We do get the occasional troll that think us complete idiots, and as such, they get ridiculed for their nonsense. BUT, there are Christians on this forum that is treated with the utmost of respect - as Open_Minded for instance. It’s not difficult, just be kind and respectful and the favor will be returned to you. So go ahead, make use of that section for your questions.

 

Debating isn't for me. After spending enough time on CF's General Apologetics forum, I've basically said enough's enough when it comes to debates.

 

I am trying to tell you that it’s hard to fathom, but we have all been where you are at, and right now things looks a lot different from where you *might* ultimately end up. So, don’t be shy …

 

Heh, I am painfully shy! Especially when it comes to talking about my doubts. I don't know where I'll end up. It will likely be in some theistic system (atheism is not for me). Which one it'll be, I really don't know yet.

 

Rosa

 

I am registered there, but not as thunderbolt, and I just didn’t bother to ask someone to change my “faith.” I was never a fan of those forums, even as a Christian.

 

I can understand that. Some people there are extremely intolerant. I'm actually thinking of taking a hiatus from that forum, as it can be poison for the mind.

 

I guess my point is, it’s always a sensitive subject when it’s your own religion that’s been slammed. Although I am not an atheist, I have to say, that the atheists on this forum have no problem taking slams from Christians and other people on atheists. I believe the call it “laughing at yourself.”

 

I guess it really depends on the nature of the "slam". For instance, the tv show "The Simpsons" includes many lines that border on blasphemy, and yeah, some of those are funny. But I don't see stuff like that in the same light that I would a remark like "Christians are brainwashed sheep" or something like that.

 

Also, if you want a serious debate, then try the Colosseum – you will find very serious discussion there on any question you may have. We do get the occasional troll that think us complete idiots, and as such, they get ridiculed for their nonsense. BUT, there are Christians on this forum that is treated with the utmost of respect - as Open_Minded for instance. It’s not difficult, just be kind and respectful and the favor will be returned to you. So go ahead, make use of that section for your questions.

 

Debating isn't for me. After spending enough time on CF's General Apologetics forum, I've basically said enough's enough when it comes to debates.

 

I am trying to tell you that it’s hard to fathom, but we have all been where you are at, and right now things looks a lot different from where you *might* ultimately end up. So, don’t be shy …

 

Heh, I am painfully shy! Especially when it comes to talking about my doubts. I don't know where I'll end up. It will likely be in some theistic system (atheism is not for me). Which one it'll be, I really don't know yet.

 

 

Whoopsie! I double posted!

 

^^^^^

 

You don't have to just debate there, you can ask your questions there as well. (I believe.)

 

This forum have not only atheists, but a numer of deists as well. Although, I don't think Deisim is "theistic" by definition.

 

Deism isn't theistic? I thought it was.

[thunderbolt]

Deism isn't theistic? I thought it was.

In what way?

 

Theism by definition seems to revolve around a “personal” God, and personally (haha) I have not met a Deist that believes in a “personal” God. I.E. a cosmic buddy you can chat to that solves your life issues through prayer, meditation, etc.

 

BTW - Half the week I am a deist, and the other half of the week I am agnostic. Still working out many things for myself as well.

[Ouroboros]

Sorry for stepping in into your little discussion here, but from what I understand the big difference between theism and deism is that theism believes there's a god that created the universe and us and continues to interact with the "creation" through miracles, revelations etc, while a deist believes more in the anonymous god that created everything but then pretty much let it be and take its own course. (Somebody, correct me if I'm completely wrong here.)

[thunderbolt]

^^^^

 

That's my understanding too, and how I "practice" it three days of the week.

[godlessgrrl]

Oh wow, sawitch...

 

Originally I'll be honest, I was a bit put out by your initial post too... a lot of the bitterness you might find is, I think, well-earned by a religion that's treated many of us here as something less than human (myself included here).

 

I have to say though that your post about why you're here - questioning your faith after the death of your parents - really really strikes a chord with me.

 

It was the death of my father's parents that got me questioning my former Xian faith. My mother told me that because they weren't believers they were in hell; but I had a serious problem reconciling that statement with the reality that my dad's parents loved and cared for me more than my own parents ever did. It just didn't match up, the idea of a god of love condemning the people who really loved me because they didn't say the right magic words. It was insulting to their memory, at best.

 

Here I am today, a much happier agnostic. I don't believe in Biblegod anymore. I have good reason not to. What more can I say?

 

Some of the things Xians and Xianity have done to me, said to me, taught me, and so on, well - I'm certainly angry about a lot of them. I will not say I'm not sometimes very bitter about it. The faith earned it with its dishonesty, in my book. I feel how I feel. I won't apologize.

 

At the same time I think I understand some of where you're coming from. And I will say that I appreciate very much your overall attitude. You don't actually strike me as the kind of totally arrogant fundie jerkoff who really tends to get our wrath here.

 

I'm also sorry for your loss too. That's hard any way you cut it. It doesn't surprise me to see people question their faith when loved ones die. I figure that if your faith is worth it, it'll stand up to any questioning you can throw at it. If it falls away, it isn't worth keeping. But that's just me...

 

At any rate, welcome. I hope you find some interesting discussions and debate here.

[SkepticOfBible]

I guess it really depends on the nature of the "slam". For instance, the tv show "The Simpsons" includes many lines that border on blasphemy, and yeah, some of those are funny. But I don't see stuff like that in the same light that would a remark like "Christians are brainwashed sheep" or something like that.

 

Have you ever watched Family Guy? they take on Jesus and christians full on, and my christian fundy friends love it.

 

Theism by definition seems to revolve around a “personal” God, and personally (haha) I have not met a Deist that believes in a “personal” God. I.E. a cosmic buddy you can chat to that solves your life issues through prayer, meditation, etc.

 

Errr I would come in that category, and I consider myself sort of a deist.

[Ziggy]

I have issues with the validity of chritianity but would prefer a reasonable, civilised debate. Any Takers

 

Hi sawitch, You and I have much in common (I saw your update in my 'Confused believing agnostic' thread)

 

For the record I have found this site to be very helpful in a positive sense I agree there are a few posts here that could possible be described as negative / bitter but this is usually in response to a fundamental Christian post (who's agrument is 'because it says in verse...') or because there is some real valid hurt that people have to work through. I do think that the US has a bigger problem with fundamental Christianity than here in the UK.. but thats a personal view not based on fact!

 

I - like you - have not been hurt badly by the Church or an individual in the Church. But have found that there are some huge fundamental questions that need to be asked regarding Christianity as a whole.

 

If it helps my view is this;

 

Raised evangelical Christian

Still attend Church

Not sure if I call myself a Christian (hence confused believing agnostic)

Still have a sense of my own spirituality (whatever that is)

Wanting to find some spiritual truth but strip out the religious trimmings (any religion)

 

I do not think about / believe in Hell

IF there is a heaven (which I don't think about too much either because I can't visualise it / understand it) then it is NOT limited to people who accept Christ as saviour. IF it exists it is open to all who have an honest searching heart irrespective of their background faith or lack of faith

 

This is not a Christian view ... so why do I still go to Church..?

 

Because..

1 - I still have a sense of own spirituality and want to try and understand it

 

2 - I have found that in quiet conversations with Christians I know well that they do not believe in Hell either - or not in the literal sense that everyone who is not 'saved' is going there

 

3 - That many people (outside the Church) have a sense of a spiritual side and that this is important for them but they cannot understand it because they cannot relate to a 'religion' Can the Church encompass these people without preaching hell?

 

4 -What is the difference between a spiritual person and a Christian who does not believe in Hell?

 

5 - That some Christians acknowledge that the bible cannot be read literally and that looking at its history in an open minded way throws doubt on a huge amount of what it says

 

 

If I was being preached Hell and dinosaurs did not exist and catholics/muslims are the anti-christ etc then I would be a definate deconvert

 

But as it is I think there is a grey area.. in between traditional Christianity and a persons sense of spirituality. Its a positive train of thought - not an all or nothing approach.

My church at the moment acknowledges this (although not officially yet..!)

 

Many teachings of Christ in the bible are seem to make sense in what they teach about the human condidtion and how to live your life. So from that view point you could say i was was a follower of Christ even if i don't believe in the hell thing.

 

This is where I am now... I am sure it will change though! I am not offering it as the truth in anyway shape or form but its where at the moment I can be who I am

 

And many people on this site have helped me cope with thinking this through - No one gave me answers... only opinions offered/debated and some fantastic links which helped me understand myself more I did not know enough that is clear!

Much more than I got on the Christianforum which does not easily welcome open questions (although again I found there are some on there that are sympathetic with my view)

 

Sorry bit long that post... PM me if you have any questions.