Former Atheist, Ask Me Anything

[mymistake]

 

 

 

Do tell.  How does atheism lead to immorality?  The more details you include in your answer the better.

 

 

We can never be sure how X leads to Y in history.  This is because we cannot apply the scientific method to history.  We cannot perform controlled experiments for a theory of how/why X leads to Y.  We can come up with hypotheses and argue about them all day long, but that seems pointless.

 

What we can do is to observe that X generally precedes Y in history and therefore X may cause Y.  This is the case here.  Loss of respect for religion is generally followed by moral decay and then the collapse of the affected culture.

 

 

 

Oh wait, I call bullshit.

 

From your link:

 

http://www.mikraite.org/Atheism-td103.html

 

 

"If you can convert an atheist into a nontheist, you will have made a big positive change in that person.  You will have changed him from being evil to being neutral.  But be careful of those who insist on atheism.  These people may not have a bad heart and their atheism may be due to ignorance, but there can be no doubt that they are evil and harmful to our world." 

 

 

How can there be no doubt if we can never be sure?  You just contradicted yourself.  You are full of bullshit.

[fschmidt]

"ETA" means edited to add. Plus, nuts to your linky. I want to hear what you have to say about what I said in your own words, if it's not too much trouble.

 

My linky is to my own words, I wrote the thing I linked to.

 

And regarding your ETA, the answer is yes.  But of course people with a similar view to mine, however few they are, are likely to prefer my beliefs.  I would push people towards whatever religion is best suited for them as long as it isn't evil.

[Astreja]

You would push people towards religion?  How dare you interfere in their lives!

 

As I clearly stated, the very best religion for Me is none at all.

[fschmidt]

 

some secular branch of Buddhism is about the only morally acceptable religion in that list, besides Satanism. Clearly you know nothing about Islam. Like dude said, atheism isn't a religion, it's a conclusion from lack of evidence, and/or reason to believe in the existence of god/s. And I guess Hinduism varies depending on how seriously you take it.

 

http://thesatanictemple.com/faq

Added: http://thesatanictemple.com/about-us/tenets

 

I have a hard time finding anything to criticize with that. A bit inflammatory on the imagery, but hardly offensive to me at least.Though I'm not in the market for a religion, secular or not. Though the other half of me is a devout pastafarian and secretly a Cthulhu cultist, the noodly one is Cthulhu's public persona... Shhh, don't tell anyone.

 

 

Modern Islam is pretty bad, as is modern Christianity.  But traditional Islam created a very productive culture in the Abbasid caliphate, responsible for inventing algebra, optics, and many other things.  You can read about a good form of Islam here:

 

http://www.mutazila.net/

 

I am not going to discuss morality with someone who supports Satanism, such a person is beyond hope.

[TheOutsider]

 

 

some secular branch of Buddhism is about the only morally acceptable religion in that list, besides Satanism. Clearly you know nothing about Islam. Like dude said, atheism isn't a religion, it's a conclusion from lack of evidence, and/or reason to believe in the existence of god/s. And I guess Hinduism varies depending on how seriously you take it.

 

http://thesatanictemple.com/faq

Added: http://thesatanictemple.com/about-us/tenets

 

I have a hard time finding anything to criticize with that. A bit inflammatory on the imagery, but hardly offensive to me at least.Though I'm not in the market for a religion, secular or not. Though the other half of me is a devout pastafarian and secretly a Cthulhu cultist, the noodly one is Cthulhu's public persona... Shhh, don't tell anyone.

 

 

Modern Islam is pretty bad, as is modern Christianity.  But traditional Islam created a very productive culture in the Abbasid caliphate, responsible for inventing algebra, optics, and many other things.  You can read about a good form of Islam here:

 

http://www.mutazila.net/

 

I am not going to discuss morality with someone who supports Satanism, such a person is beyond hope.

 

 

Fine, then, just one question if you will? how do you feel about the catholic church?

 

Also, that ebook covers the Sunni branch of islam?

[duderonomy]

 

"ETA" means edited to add. Plus, nuts to your linky. I want to hear what you have to say about what I said in your own words, if it's not too much trouble.

 

My linky is to my own words, I wrote the thing I linked to.

 

And regarding your ETA, the answer is yes.  But of course people with a similar view to mine, however few they are, are likely to prefer my beliefs.  I would push people towards whatever religion is best suited for them as long as it isn't evil.

 

 

I understand. 

 

 

 

some secular branch of Buddhism is about the only morally acceptable religion in that list, besides Satanism. Clearly you know nothing about Islam. Like dude said, atheism isn't a religion, it's a conclusion from lack of evidence, and/or reason to believe in the existence of god/s. And I guess Hinduism varies depending on how seriously you take it.

 

http://thesatanictemple.com/faq

Added: http://thesatanictemple.com/about-us/tenets

 

I have a hard time finding anything to criticize with that. A bit inflammatory on the imagery, but hardly offensive to me at least.Though I'm not in the market for a religion, secular or not. Though the other half of me is a devout pastafarian and secretly a Cthulhu cultist, the noodly one is Cthulhu's public persona... Shhh, don't tell anyone.

 

 

Modern Islam is pretty bad, as is modern Christianity.  But traditional Islam created a very productive culture in the Abbasid caliphate, responsible for inventing algebra, optics, and many other things.  You can read about a good form of Islam here:

 

http://www.mutazila.net/

 

I am not going to discuss morality with someone who supports Satanism, such a person is beyond hope.

 

 

Amen, my brother. Where do you get your idea of Satanism from?

[Astreja]

I am not going to discuss morality with someone who supports Satanism, such a person is beyond hope.

 

If you cannot bring yourself to discuss matters with all of us, regardless of what we believe, perhaps you should take leave of this place altogether.

[fschmidt]

 

 

Actually, fschmidt, IMO what you are doing here is pure evil.  You are asking that we lie to ourselves about what we believe.

 

To lie is to KNOWINGLY tell a falsehood.  If a person honestly believes something, then that isn't lying no matter how false the belief may be.

 

In the case of religion, nothing can proven, so no religion is a lie since anyone can honestly believe any religion.

 

I happen to have an aversion to the supernatural, as you seem to.  There are non-supernatural religions.  For example, what do you have against Confucianism?  My interpretation of the Old Testament is also free of supernatural beliefs.

 

Anyone with morals will find some things good and some things evil.  I don't see why anyone should take offense if I consider their religion (Atheism or Satanism) evil.  I would assume that people with morals opposite to mine would find my religion to be evil, and I wouldn't take offense to that.

[fschmidt]

If you cannot bring yourself to discuss matters with all of us, regardless of what we believe, perhaps you should take leave of this place altogether.

 

See my previous post.  There is no point discussing morality with someone whose morals are opposite to mine.

[Astreja]

 

 

 

Actually, fschmidt, IMO what you are doing here is pure evil.  You are asking that we lie to ourselves about what we believe.

 

To lie is to KNOWINGLY tell a falsehood.  If a person honestly believes something, then that isn't lying no matter how false the belief may be.

 

That's My point!  I do know that it's a falsehood.  Literally every attempt I have ever made to believe in a god has been just that -- An attempt -- And every attempt has failed.  I have never been able to suspend disbelief long enough to cultivate actual faith.

[duderonomy]

 

If you cannot bring yourself to discuss matters with all of us, regardless of what we believe, perhaps you should take leave of this place altogether.

 

See my previous post.  There is no point discussing morality with someone whose morals are opposite to mine.

 

 

Our morals are our own, Faceshit. Ours come from within, and yours seem to come from the depths of whatever.

[mymistake]

 

 

 

Actually, fschmidt, IMO what you are doing here is pure evil.  You are asking that we lie to ourselves about what we believe.

 

To lie is to KNOWINGLY tell a falsehood.  If a person honestly believes something, then that isn't lying no matter how false the belief may be.

 

In the case of religion, nothing can proven, so no religion is a lie since anyone can honestly believe any religion.

 

I happen to have an aversion to the supernatural, as you seem to.  There are non-supernatural religions.  For example, what do you have against Confucianism?  My interpretation of the Old Testament is also free of supernatural beliefs.

 

Anyone with morals will find some things good and some things evil.  I don't see why anyone should take offense if I consider their religion (Atheism or Satanism) evil.  I would assume that people with morals opposite to mine would find my religion to be evil, and I wouldn't take offense to that.

 

 

 

Uh no.  Bullshit.  You can't get out of lying by deluding yourself.  If you try to delude yourself then you are lying to yourself first before you lie to others.

 

As for religion many things can be disproven.  For example the genital mutilation, slavery, rape and genocide found in the Old Testament disprove that the God of the Old Testament is moral or ethical character.  But we don't have to stop there.  Archeology disproves much of the Old Testament "history".  And the first several books are complete myth.  So if you are following a pack of lies how are you going to end up with truth?

[fschmidt]

So, in keeping with Leviticus, you believe homosexuals and adulterers (among many others) should be killed?

 

Regarding homosexuals, no, see:

 

http://www.mikraite.org/Homosexuality-tp9.html

 

Regarding adulterers, not exactly.  I am personally against the death penalty because it is no longer needed in modern time since we can afford to maintain prisons.  This was not the case when the Old Testament was written, so the death penalty was justified at that time.  However adultery should be considered one of the worst crimes, comparable to murder, and should be treated similarly, just as the Old Testament says.

[fschmidt]

Just a general note:  When someone insults me, I will no longer respond to them.

 

[Fweethawt]

What is your favorite vegetable?

[Astreja]

 

If you cannot bring yourself to discuss matters with all of us, regardless of what we believe, perhaps you should take leave of this place altogether.

 

See my previous post.  There is no point discussing morality with someone whose morals are opposite to mine.

 

 

I think it was Stephen Covey who said "If two people have the same opinion, one is unnecessary."  What are you afraid of -- That the opposing party might actually make sense and disturb your worldview?

[mymistake]

 

So, in keeping with Leviticus, you believe homosexuals and adulterers (among many others) should be killed?

 

Regarding homosexuals, no, see:

 

http://www.mikraite.org/Homosexuality-tp9.html

 

Regarding adulterers, not exactly.  I am personally against the death penalty because it is no longer needed in modern time since we can afford to maintain prisons.  This was not the case when the Old Testament was written, so the death penalty was justified at that time.  However adultery should be considered one of the worst crimes, comparable to murder, and should be treated similarly, just as the Old Testament says.

 

 

 

Ah yes, back when the Old Testament was written all they had was the power of an all knowing, all powerful God.  So they needed to kill people to keep them in line.

 

But now with modern technology we have become refined, sophisticated and civilized so human innovation trumps God's power.

 

It all makes sense now!

[duderonomy]

Just a general note:  When someone insults me, I will no longer respond to them.

 

Are you refering to me, Faceshit? If so, how would I know?

[mymistake]

Just a general note:  When someone insults me, I will no longer respond to them.

 

 

Well now we know your kryptonite.  Thanks for the tip.

[TheOutsider]

Er, never mind the question about what branch of Islam that book covers, apparently it's both... I'm running on fumes...

 

Still, if you don't mind, how do you feel about Catholicism? I know you said you respect fundamentalist Christianity, I'm just not clear on where Catholicism falls in, considering many protestant christians don't consider catholics to be true christians.

[fschmidt]

Read your long explanation and a number of items stood out to me.

 

1. You seem to claim that atheists don't know their bibles or haven't read them. I am the daughter of a preacher, went to church regularly from birth, and studied and memorized scripture in depth for the last 28 of my 47 years. I know my bible.

 

2. I do not call eastern religions atheist. I call them superstitious.

 

3. Atheism and nontheism are interchangeable. A- and non- both mean "without" or "lacking". Call me a nontheist if you want, I really don't care.

 

4. I cannot "hate" God because I cannot hate something that does not exist. I don't "hate" leprechauns, either!

 

5. I do not attack believers, I attack their beliefs. If they cannot differentiate between themselves and their beliefs, that is not my problem.

 

6. I do not blame all the worlds problems on god, because there is no God. I blame all the worlds problems on human nature.

 

7. I take full responsibility for my human nature and do the best I can to live peacefully with others and help them to live a good life. I don't blame anything on "Satan" or on the whims of a fickle God - THAT is failing to take responsibility!

 

8. You claim that this "long explanation" takes care of the question of atheists being evil. I did not find that to be the case. Please elaborate.

 

Lastly, you invited us to "ask anything". I asked a question earlier that you have failed to respond to. Did you not mean what you said?

 

 

Responding to your points:

 

#1  No, I don't claim that Atheists don't know the Bible.

 

#2  Most eastern religions are actually not fundamentally superstitious.  The superstition as actually an add-on.  I was in Tibet talking to some Buddhist monks there and I asked them if they believed in the gods whose statues filled their temples.  They said no.  So I asked why these statues were there.  They said because these statues and beliefs in gods helps average people follow the right path.  This makes perfect sense to me.

 

#3  I simply disagree as explained in my post.

 

#4  One can certainly hate a fictional character.  Many movies have a bad guy that you hate even if he isn't real.

 

#5  I try not to attack Atheists, I try to attack only Atheism.  So we are on the same page here.

 

#6  I blame the world's problems on lack of moral guidance, and I believe that moral guidance comes from moral religions.

 

#7  I also take responsibility for my actions.  I am only willing live peacefully with those who allow me to live peacefully.  When others try to impose their values on me, they lose all moral rights as far as I am concerned.  And this is the case with virtually all Atheists, liberals, and other members of modern culture.

 

#8  Please be more specific.

 

I answered your earlier question.

[fschmidt]

You would push people towards religion?  How dare you interfere in their lives!

 

As I clearly stated, the very best religion for Me is none at all.

 

There is a big difference between influencing someone and imposing one's beliefs on someone.  I would never impose beliefs on anyone.

[fschmidt]

Fine, then, just one question if you will? how do you feel about the catholic church?

 

 

 

Also, that ebook covers the Sunni branch of islam?

 

 

 

I have a low opinion of the Catholic Church.  Historically, it did many evil things.  And the Pope is effectively a king of the religion, something that the Old Testament clearly opposes as seen in 1 Samuel 8.

 

The ebook isn't really related to Sunni versus Shia.  What happened is that Islam evolved from a basic practical religion into an intellectual religion and then there was a fundamentalist backlash.  Modern Islam is the product of that fundamentalist backlash which rejects reason.

[Astreja]

In light of religious indoctrination, fschmidt, the difference between "influencing" and "imposing" is very small.  I was extremely fortunate to have parents who were not overtly religious and who were not regular churchgoers.  I did not have to overcome the profound obstacle of having mythology presented to Me as truth, at an age where I might have accepted the mythology as truth because an authority figure said it was true.

[fschmidt]

In light of religious indoctrination, fschmidt, the difference between "influencing" and "imposing" is very small.

 

Then we just disagree.  In my opinion, there is a huge difference between influencing and imposing.  In the case of my children, my goal is to maximize both their critical thinking and their knowledge.  I encourage them to debate and I have taken them to both church and synagogue so that they can see how the various religions are.