Astreja Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 #5 I try not to attack Atheists, I try to attack only Atheism. How is calling an atheist's worldview "evil" not an attack? I find it extremely offensive, even slanderous, that you would judge our morality as substandard simply because we don't believe in gods. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fschmidt Posted October 14, 2015 Author Share Posted October 14, 2015 How is calling an atheist's worldview "evil" not an attack? I find it extremely offensive, even slanderous, that you would judge our morality as substandard simply because we don't believe in gods. I will answer with your own words: "I do not attack believers, I attack their beliefs. If they cannot differentiate between themselves and their beliefs, that is not my problem." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Those are not My words. I judge people on their behaviours, not their beliefs. I also do not issue blanket condemnation of entire systems of belief simply because they fall under the same label. You, on the other hand, have taken atheism -- which is merely lack of belief in divine beings -- and arbitrarily labeled it as evil. Why? Don't be lazy here -- Spell out exactly where the evil is, because I for one am not seeing it. What is evil about not believing in something for which one sees no evidence? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fschmidt Posted October 14, 2015 Author Share Posted October 14, 2015 Those are not My words. I judge people on their behaviours, not their beliefs. I also do not issue blanket condemnation of entire systems of belief simply because they fall under the same label. You, on the other hand, have taken atheism -- which is merely lack of belief in divine beings -- and arbitrarily labeled it as evil. Why? Don't be lazy here -- Spell out exactly where the evil is, because I for one am not seeing it. What is evil about not believing in something for which one sees no evidence? You are right, those are Daffodil's words. I also don't care about beliefs as my website makes very clear, I care about actions. My problem with Atheism is the kind of actions that Atheism promotes. What kind of actions? Basically liberal behavior including feminism. So promiscuity, inconsideration for others, general lack of respect, and lack of rituals which are moral exercises needed to maintain morality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOutsider Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Fine, then, just one question if you will? how do you feel about the catholic church? Also, that ebook covers the Sunni branch of islam? I have a low opinion of the Catholic Church. Historically, it did many evil things. And the Pope is effectively a king of the religion, something that the Old Testament clearly opposes as seen in 1 Samuel 8. The ebook isn't really related to Sunni versus Shia. What happened is that Islam evolved from a basic practical religion into an intellectual religion and then there was a fundamentalist backlash. Modern Islam is the product of that fundamentalist backlash which rejects reason. Hey, what do you know, the Temple of Satan sympathizing atheist/Pastafarian Cthulhu cultist and the staunch hipster-jew agree on something. If you will forgive my sense of humor. Not to mention the child rape, and harboring child rapists, and at least threatening to punish anyone that leaks information about them with jail time... I figured it was an overview of the history, more or less, I was just curious if it favored one over the other, and after a second glance I noticed there where chapters for both. I simply cannot agree that there is anything worth respecting in Islam, sure their contributions to math and stuff where profound. But like you said, that was during an era where fundamentalism was weak, they where shedding what makes Islam, Islam. It was becoming cultural, more or less. Funny huh? Religion wains, technological/scientific advancement waxes. Imagine where we would be if the dark ages never happened... Now you have people abusing the authority of a nonexistent god to encourage/force people to do horrible things, or at least be complacent in the commission of horrible acts, because there is nothing in their holy texts to support opposing the radical sects, as far as I'm aware. For the promise of potential paradise, or under the threat of a horrible death and potential hell. That's the core of your beliefs third act, where the barbaric actions of the Israelite's where most likely entirely myth, or at most inflated by myth. Factions like ISIS/L are actually committing acts like that on a comparable, if not larger scale to the myths in your book. Though I'd assume as far as sheer destruction of life is concerned, the catholic church holds first place. I'm not attached to that assumption though... I think I'm digressing... Do you really think Sharia law is a good thing? With the consequences for breaking any of it usually being some form of brutal execution/beating/maiming/general barbarism depending on the "crime" committed? What is so appealing about some hyper-authoritarian sky fairy holding a sword to everyone's neck, lest they stray merely a fraction of an inch from it's will? Basically living like a prisoner to some abusive, sadistic maniac that doesn't let you go after he kills you/has you killed. You must see that the god of the Abrahamic trio is a vile monster at best, right? Or is that what you believe is necessary to keep humanity in line? Whatever the hell that line might be. You do realize it's mostly perceived divine authority that has caused most of the horrible, large scale acts of violence throughout history, right? Including, but not limited to, everything the catholic church has done since it's beginning. And every act of violence committed in the name of Islam. I know, you believe your god is just some nebulous natural force or whatever. But as far as the basis for your personally modified mythology is concerned, Yahweh is a god of war, consider the sheer amount of blood-lust he demonstrates throughout the OT, his eagerness to order the murder of anyone not of Israeli decent, regardless of who they are. And even those of Israeli decent if they offend him in the slightest manner, or step ever so slightly out of bounds. You claim satanism and atheism are evil, atheism is just the rejection of the assertion that god/s exist. Satanism, depending on the flavor, is at least in my previous example, about personal freedom, growing as a species, being better people, being better to each other. No threat of eternal punishment, no promise of eternal reward, just, at best, a good life for yourself and those around you. Is that really so vile? So distasteful? Satanism is basically edgy humanism with an emphasis on personal autonomy, and a thirst for real, untainted by superstition and mythology, truth. No matter where it may lead. There is no truth in ancient myths created by ignorant barbaric humans. Personally, I think your priorities are a bit messed up, and so is your understanding of atheism. I know, you won't discuss morality with me, this isn't for you. It's for those reading this thread, and for me. Your response doesn't matter. And sorry for going a little overboard, bad habit. Also, just to be clear, when I say I'm an atheist, I mean I don't believe in the existence of any gods, and as an extra, anything supernatural, regardless of their origin. That's all atheism means, for the n'th time. Doesn't mean there couldn't be any, I just find it highly unlikely, near impossible even, that any humans have ever had any insight into what it/they might actually be/want. I don't believe Yahweh is anything more than a figment of ancient Canaanite tribes collective imaginations, passed down through bloody stories of divinely authorized war and rape and murder against fellow humans deemed evil, for no other reason then they were in Israel's way. Over the many years since it's conception. It's a fluke it made it this far, nothing more. Though Romes employment of the mythology didn't hurt it's chances. If you will forgive any errors, or ramble-y bits, I really should have gone to sleep by now.... And remember kids, Heil Satan! Not that he cares, he doesn't exist. Now go learn something useful. Like astrophysics, or whatever... This is how I know I need sleep... Ohhh shit... Yeah, I've been up too long, my jacket is breathing, and I'm - not - in - it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 14, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted October 14, 2015 So, what is your view of Jesus? Was he God? No, my view is just that Jesus was a very smart man who understood the Old Testament very well. Everything that Jesus said, as recorded in the first 3 gospels, is consistent with the Old Testament. Here's what jesus had to say about one's parents: If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26 Here's what the old testament had to say about one's parents: Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. Exodus 20:12 Leaving aside your confusion as to the nature of atheism and morality (which we'll deal with later), please explain how what jesus had to say concerning hatred for one's parents is consistent with what the old testament had to say about honoring one's parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 What is your favorite vegetable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fschmidt Posted October 14, 2015 Author Share Posted October 14, 2015 Here's what jesus had to say about one's parents: If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26 Here's what the old testament had to say about one's parents: Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. Exodus 20:12 Leaving aside your confusion as to the nature of atheism and morality (which we'll deal with later), please explain how what jesus had to say concerning hatred for one's parents is consistent with what the old testament had to say about honoring one's parents. The Old Testament is full of stories which make clear that one's dedication to God (representing morality) must take precedence over one's dedication to family relations. The commandment to honor one's parents normally applies, but when it conflicts with God (morality), then God must take precedence. This was Jesus's point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fschmidt Posted October 14, 2015 Author Share Posted October 14, 2015 What is your favorite vegetable? brussel sprouts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 14, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted October 14, 2015 Here's what jesus had to say about one's parents: If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26 Here's what the old testament had to say about one's parents: Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. Exodus 20:12 Leaving aside your confusion as to the nature of atheism and morality (which we'll deal with later), please explain how what jesus had to say concerning hatred for one's parents is consistent with what the old testament had to say about honoring one's parents. The Old Testament is full of stories which make clear that one's dedication to God (representing morality) must take precedence over one's dedication to family relations. The commandment to honor one's parents normally applies, but when it conflicts with God (morality), then God must take precedence. This was Jesus's point. So then, killing your firstborn child for no other reason than the belief that "god said so" would be morally justifiable? Keep in mind that we have yet to define the word "evil" as you apply it to atheists and as we might apply it to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted October 14, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted October 14, 2015 This is some of the most extreme cherry picking we'll see. Enjoy it while it lasts, folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 The Old Testament commands that you do not allow a witch to live. God commands that when a woman marry and she is not a virgin that you stone her to death. Anybody who works on the Sabbath must die. Have you been obeying? Other people the Old Testament commands you to put to death include: psychics, any woman who was raped in the city and did not scream, prostitutes who are the daughter of a priest, adulterers, anybody promiscuous, those who curse parents Basically you are suppose to kill most of our population. My question is, do you plan to continue to ignore these commandments? I sure hope so. I'm glad you are more ethical in deed that the God of the Old Testament. But if you can figure out on your own that God's commandments are unethical then why not realize that God is unethical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffodil Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 I smell a troll. I leave fschmidt to those with more patience than myself. Adios! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deidre Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 welcome to the forums. i was brought up in a Christian home, left the faith a few years back, identified as an atheist...then came back to the faith now. My question for you is...do you follow Judaism, then? whoa whoa whoa there sweetheart....because you are an intelligent young lady, you don't get the authentic Christian label. Good god sexism is alive here at EX C. Every one of you should be ashamed.....ASHAMED!! Haha No worries…when I registered here, I was an ex-c…now, I’m back to the faith. It’s no biggie to me. Not necessary to wear a big banner, tbh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Duderonomy: Atheism is a conclusion, not a religion. ... Deidre, is atheism a conclusion? As in 'final answer' ? Or do people move back and forth between atheism and religion, even though they may have learned and now cant 'un-know' the bible inconsistencies and logical arguments against it? Atheism's not a religion...exactly...getting there though.... http://www.christianpost.com/news/atheist-church-sunday-assembly-opens-in-35-more-towns-127190/ http://www.theblaze.com/blog/2013/09/24/headline-of-the-day-an-atheist-church/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 If you cannot bring yourself to discuss matters with all of us, regardless of what we believe, perhaps you should take leave of this place altogether. See my previous post. There is no point discussing morality with someone whose morals are opposite to mine. Our morals are our own, Faceshit. Ours come from within, and yours seem to come from the depths of whatever. Uh oh, he's Faceshit now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Hang on a second. Post #1 "Traditional Christianity produced the Enlightenment." -Actually, it produced the Dark Ages, and considered any scientific/medical discovery to be blasphemous against the word of god. Your religion has set humanity back 1500 years in the medical and scientific fields. Post #35 "Everything that Jesus said, as recorded in the first 3 gospels, is consistent with the Old Testament.” Post#39 "I don't accept the Gospels. I don't believe in miracles or in the resurrection. I just think that the comments by Jesus as recorded there are very insightful. I think the best way to understand Jesus is to spend a few months attending Orthodox synagogue. Then you will understand who Jesus was debating with and why he was right. -You're contradicting yourself, not to mention confused. You accept jesus as being consistent with the O.T. Yet you don't accept the the very gospels you claim are consistent with the O.T.? Your logic doesn't make any sense. -You don't believe in miracles or the resurrection, but you say the comments by jesus as recorded there are very insightful? The comments jesus made were about miracles and his resurrection, so how, if jesus is insightful as to miracles and his own resurrection, why do you reject it? You're not making any sense whatsoever. Post#42 "I don't want to push my beliefs here. Post#1 "After studying religion and history, I realized that Atheism is evil and that throughout history, decaying cultures lost respect for their founding religion and became atheistic which led to immorality. I now follow the Old Testament. -You again contradicted yourself by claiming your not here to push your beliefs, post#42, yet you pushed your beliefs in post #1. "I just hope that ex-christians choose another moral religion." -Atheism is not a religion. Please educate yourself as to what Atheism actually is. "That could be Judaism, Islam" -Judaism and islam are the two most immoral religions we have. Please educate yourself as to what the O.T. actually teaches. In other words, read it, before you preach it. "I am against evil" -So am I, that is why I no longer believe in god, especially the Old Testament as well as the New Testament. Post#79 I also don't care about beliefs as my website makes very clear, I care about actions. - Then why are you here pushing your Old Testament beliefs, as well as your beliefs about atheism? "My problem with Atheism (I thought you were not here to push your beliefs on us) is the kind of actions that Atheism promotes. What kind of actions? Basically liberal behavior including feminism. So promiscuity, inconsideration for others, general lack of respect, and lack of rituals which are moral exercises needed to maintain morality." -So now we're getting down to why you're really here. You have an agenda against what you think atheists believe and act like. You could not be more wrong. You are here to promote the Old Testament as a moral compass, when the Old Testament is anything but moral. Quoted Example (link follows example) In Genesis 7:21-23, God drowns the entire population of the earth: men, women, children, fetuses, and animals. In Exodus 12:29, God the baby-killer slaughters all Egyptian firstborn children and cattle because their king was stubborn. In Numbers 16:41-49, the Israelites complain that God is killing too many of them. So, God sends a plague that kills 14,000 more of them. In 1 Samuel 6:19, God kills 50,000 men for peeking into the ark of the covenant. In Numbers 31:7-18, the Israelites kill all the Midianites except for the virgins, whom they are allowed to rape as spoils of war. In 2 Kings 2:23-24, some kids tease the prophet Elisha, and God sends bears to dismember them. God’s Atrocities in the Old Testament Post#83 "The Old Testament is full of stories which make clear that one's dedication to God (representing morality) must take precedence over one's dedication to family relations. The commandment to honor one's parents normally applies, but when it conflicts with God (morality), then God must take precedence. This was Jesus's point. " -Uhg. So the word god represents morality to you, yet the god of the bible as indicated above, is anything but moral. People have a conflict with god because he is immoral. -Quoting jesus again? For someone who claims they don't believe in the new testament or what they have to say about the jesus myth, you sure do like to keep using jesus and his person as a proof for your O.T. points of view. In conclusion, yes, welcome to this site, blah blah, I see you as nothing more than a cherry picker. All in all, you have proven yourself untrustworthy and a liar, as your posts have contradicted themselves at every turn, i.e. you're not here to push your beliefs, but you are here because your beliefs have you believing we are all evil atheists who need to be steered in another direction (that is pushing your beliefs on us). I also know that you were never truly an atheist. You may have considered yourself one at one time, or even didn't believe in god in a generic sense, but you lack any knowledge as to what atheism really is. Based on your posts, i also see that you have absolutely no knowledge as to what the Old Testament actually teaches nor the evil god it puts on display. Welcome to the Lion's den. Thank you for stopping by. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 What is your favorite vegetable? brussel sprouts I don't like those... I used to secretly feed them to our schnauzer until one day he vomited them onto the living room carpet. I got in trouble for that... What's your favorite color? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 If you cannot bring yourself to discuss matters with all of us, regardless of what we believe, perhaps you should take leave of this place altogether. See my previous post. There is no point discussing morality with someone whose morals are opposite to mine. Our morals are our own, Faceshit. Ours come from within, and yours seem to come from the depths of whatever. Uh oh, he's Faceshit now. Well, I thought he ought to have a nickname so he'd, you know, feel welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fschmidt Posted October 14, 2015 Author Share Posted October 14, 2015 So then, killing your firstborn child for no other reason than the belief that "god said so" would be morally justifiable? Keep in mind that we have yet to define the word "evil" as you apply it to atheists and as we might apply it to you. The reasoning behind the sacrifice of Isaac is never explained. My personal explanation is that God was testing Abraham to see if he would have the independence to question God about this command, as Abraham questioned God about the killing of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorra. Abraham failed the test by not questioning God, so not all his descendants became Israel. But regardless of the explanation, one thing for sure is that God did not accept human sacrifice, doing away with a rather nasty common practice at that time. As for defining evil, this isn't possible since morality is relative. But I can give an approximate description of my morality which is that those behaviors that are good for society, and therefore generally found in rising cultures, are good (moral), and those behaviors that are bad for society, and therefore generally found in declining cultures, are evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fschmidt Posted October 14, 2015 Author Share Posted October 14, 2015 The Old Testament commands that you do not allow a witch to live. God commands that when a woman marry and she is not a virgin that you stone her to death. Anybody who works on the Sabbath must die. Have you been obeying? Other people the Old Testament commands you to put to death include: psychics, any woman who was raped in the city and did not scream, prostitutes who are the daughter of a priest, adulterers, anybody promiscuous, those who curse parents Basically you are suppose to kill most of our population. My question is, do you plan to continue to ignore these commandments? I sure hope so. I'm glad you are more ethical in deed that the God of the Old Testament. But if you can figure out on your own that God's commandments are unethical then why not realize that God is unethical? I do generally agree with these Old Testament commands and I follow them. But as I already mentioned, I am against the death penalty in modern times. On the other hand, from a strictly evolutionary point of view, the human gene pool would benefit enormously from killing the people who violate these commands. Most of humanity today is pretty bad and the human gene pool would be better off without their genes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fschmidt Posted October 14, 2015 Author Share Posted October 14, 2015 I smell a troll. I leave fschmidt to those with more patience than myself. Adios! Hasta nunca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deidre Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Duderonomy: Atheism is a conclusion, not a religion. ... Deidre, is atheism a conclusion? As in 'final answer' ? Or do people move back and forth between atheism and religion, even though they may have learned and now cant 'un-know' the bible inconsistencies and logical arguments against it? Doubtful anyone will believe me, but I had no desire to 'return' to Christianity. Wasn't reading the Bible, wasn't praying. Became indifferent to Jesus, or the concept of Jesus. I didn't feel much, but there was always a part of me that had hope in something else, that we don't know. We don't know what we don't know, kind of thing. Then, one day recently ...I had an experience of faith. A feeling of the Holy Spirit. This didn't happen 'to me' when I was a Christian the first time 'around.' That said, it changed a lot for me, and gave me a great sense of joy and peace. Not that people can't have joy and peace sans faith, anyone can. But, for me, this sense of joy transcends the type of peace I've experienced after deconverting. Idk. It might not make any sense to anyone else, but not everything in life has a logical understanding. I still have misigivings about the Bible, but I'm of the opinion that the Bible isn't the sum total of Christianity. It's about a relationship with God. Anyway, that's how I feel about things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 14, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted October 14, 2015 So then, killing your firstborn child for no other reason than the belief that "god said so" would be morally justifiable? Keep in mind that we have yet to define the word "evil" as you apply it to atheists and as we might apply it to you. The reasoning behind the sacrifice of Isaac is never explained. My personal explanation is that God was testing Abraham to see if he would have the independence to question God about this command, as Abraham questioned God about the killing of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorra. Abraham failed the test by not questioning God, so not all his descendants became Israel. But regardless of the explanation, one thing for sure is that God did not accept human sacrifice, doing away with a rather nasty common practice at that time. As for defining evil, this isn't possible since morality is relative. But I can give an approximate description of my morality which is that those behaviors that are good for society, and therefore generally found in rising cultures, are good (moral), and those behaviors that are bad for society, and therefore generally found in declining cultures, are evil. I didn't ask you for your explanation of the myth, nor for you interpretation of the moral of a faery tale. I asked you if killing your firstborn child for no other reason that that "god said so" would be morally justifiable. Please pay attention to the conversation you are involved in; it will make communication easier. We'll get into how you truly define "morality" and "evil" a little bit later on. For now, answer the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fschmidt Posted October 14, 2015 Author Share Posted October 14, 2015 I didn't ask you for your explanation of the myth, nor for you interpretation of the moral of a faery tale. I asked you if killing your firstborn child for no other reason that that "god said so" would be morally justifiable. Please pay attention to the conversation you are involved in; it will make communication easier. This is a meaningless question to me since I don't think God literally speaks. If someone told me that he killed his kid because God told him to, I would think he is crazy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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