More Specific Questions For Liberal/universalists Christians

[NotBlinded]

SAA, you asked how we can know this god that is within us is a god of love? My answer would be because it is the natural state of everyone. We are born in this state. It is not only love but joy and peace also. It is our integrety. What person desires to be in pain and to be unhappy all the time? We can look at children and see that they only want to play and have fun...to be happy.

 

Now, if I were to believe that everyone is born evil, then I would expect to see all children clawing and screaming as their natural state. I would expect to see people going home to get uptight instead of wanting to relax. It is only by living and not understanding that we are all one is where the harm enters. It is this dualist nature that we adhere to that causes evil to exist in the first place. It does not exist without us being a cause of it. It is something that it observable, IMO.

 

NBBTL... What a great ANALOGY!!!

Thanks SAA...I often times find it hard to put into words what I want to say...so thanks again!

[NotBlinded]

Ohhhhhhh....I just remembered an email my sister sent to me last Friday. It is soooo perfect to put here!

 

I don't know if it is true or not, but there has been cases where human "nature" (or Christ-nature, buddha nature, etc) has shown through. And this is what I am trying to convey exactly:

 

Here it is:

 

Two Choices

 

What would you do? You make the choice! Don't look for a punch line;

There

isn't one! Read it anyway. My question to all of you is: Would you have

made the same choice?

 

 

At a fundraising dinner for a school that serves learning disabled

children,the father of one of the students delivered a speech that would

never be forgotten by all who attended. After extolling the school and

its

dedicated staff, he offered a question:

 

 

"When not interfered with by outside influences, everything nature does

is

done with perfection. Yet my son, Shay, cannot learn things as other

children do. He cannot understand things as other children do. Where is

the

natural order of things in my son?"

 

 

The audience was stilled by the query.

The father continued. "I believe,that when a child like Shay, physically

and mentally handicapped comes into the world, an opportunity to realize

true human nature presents itself, and it comes, in the way other people

treat that child."Then he told the following story:

 

 

Shay and his father had walked past a park where some boys Shay knew

were

playing baseball. Shay asked,"Do you think they'll let me play?" Shay's

father knew that most of the boys would not want someone like Shay on

their

team, but the father also understood that if his son were allowed to

play,

it would give him a much-needed sense of belonging and some confidence

to

be accepted by others in spite of his handicaps.

 

 

Shay's father approached one of the boys on the field and asked if Shay

could play, not expecting much. The boy looked around for guidance and

said, "We're losing by six runs and the game is in the eighth inning. I

guess he can be on our team and we'll try to put him in to bat in the

ninth

inning."

 

 

Shay struggled over to the team's bench put on a team shirt with a broad

smile and his Father had a small tear in his eye and warmth in his

heart.

The boys saw the father's joy at his son being accepted. In the bottom

of

the eighth inning, Shay's team scored a few runs but was still behind by

three. In the top of the ninth inning, Shay put on a glove and played in

the right field. Even though no hits came his way, he was obviously

ecstatic just to be in the game and on the field, grinning from ear to

ear

as his father waved to him from the stands. In the bottom of the ninth

inning, Shay's team scored again. Now, with two outs and the bases

loaded,

the potential winning run was on base and Shay was scheduled to be next

at

bat.

 

 

At this juncture, do they let Shay bat and give away their chance to win

the game? Surprisingly, Shay was given the bat. Everyone knew that a hit

was all but impossible 'cause Shay didn't even know how to hold the bat

properly, much less connect with the ball.

 

 

However, as Shay stepped up to the plate, the pitcher, recognizing the

other team putting winning aside for this moment in Shay's life, moved

in a

few steps to lob the ball in softly so Shay could at least be able to

make

contact. The first pitch came and Shay swung clumsily and missed. The

pitcher again took a few steps forward to toss the ball softly towards

Shay. As the pitch came in, Shay swung at the ball and hit a slow ground

ball right back to the pitcher.

 

 

The game would now be over, but the pitcher picked up the soft grounder

and

could have easily thrown the ball to the first baseman. Shay would have

been out and that would have been the end of the game.

 

 

Instead, the pitcher threw the ball right over the head of the first

baseman, out of reach of all team mates. Everyone from the stands and

both

teams started yelling, "Shay, run to first! Run to first!" Never in his

life had Shay ever ran that far but made it to first base. He scampered

down the baseline, wide-eyed and startled.

 

 

Everyone yelled, "Run to second, run to second!"

Catching his breath, Shay awkwardly ran towards second, gleaming and

struggling to make it to second base. By the time Shay rounded towards

second base, the right fielder had the ball, the smallest guy on their

team, who had a chance to be the hero for his team for the first time.

He

could have thrown the ball to the second-baseman for the tag, but he

understood the pitcher's intentions and he too intentionally threw the

ball

high and far over the third-baseman's head. Shay ran toward third base

deliriously as the runners ahead of him circled the bases toward home.

 

 

All were screaming, "Shay, Shay, Shay, all the Way Shay"

Shay reached third base, the opposing shortstop ran to help him and

turned

him in the direction of third base, and shouted, "Run to third! Shay,

run

to third" As Shay rounded third, the boys from both teams and those

watching were on their feet were screaming, "Shay, run home! Shay ran to

home, stepped on the plate, and was cheered as the hero who hit the

"grand

slam" and won the game for his team.

 

 

That day, said the father softly with tears now rolling down his face,

the

boys from both teams helped bring a piece of true love and humanity into

this world.

 

 

Shay didn't make it to another summer and died that winter, having never

forgotten being the hero and making his Father so happy and coming home

and

seeing his Mother tearfully embrace her little hero of the day!

 

 

AND, NOW A LITTLE FOOTNOTE TO THIS STORY: We all send thousands of jokes

through the e-mail without a second thought, but when it comes to

sending

messages about life choices, people think twice about sharing. The

crude,

vulgar, and often obscene pass freely through cyberspace, but public

discussion about decency is too often suppressed in our schools and

workplaces.

 

 

If you're thinking about forwarding this message,chances are that you're

probably sorting out the people on your address list that aren't the

"appropriate" ones to receive this type of message. Well, the person who

sent you this believes that we all can make a difference. We all have

thousands of opportunities every single day to help realize the "natural

order of things." So many seemingly trivial interactions between two

people

present us with a choice: Do we pass along a little spark of love and

humanity or do we pass up that opportunity to brighten the day of those

with us the least able, and leave the world a little bit colder in the

process?

 

Here is my reply:

 

That was just awesome!

 

We are all perfect and loving in our nature and the ability to recognize

that the one essence we all have is inside everyone and that is what

life

is really all about. We are not really separate from each other. It's

the

belief that we are is what causes all the pain and suffering because if

we

are separate, someone has to be better than someone else, as the story

alludes to.

 

I love you!

 

Wow...is there harmony in the universe or what?

[Amanda]

The spiritual thread that OM and amanda talk about is their view on what i see see as their battle (maybe not the right word) against inner negativity and negativity they see in the outside world - including among Christians. They are focusing on the positives which takes a big effort and is more than just thinking good thoughts - its being able to feel good feelings which is not straight forward

 

Thanks Robert (UK) for your input, and I think there is a LOT to be said by NBBTB also... who can usually explain things better than I. It is not so much the 'battle' against negativity... because the repercussions of the 'negativity' itself will eventually drive us into a direction that gives the ultimate love, joy, and peace. Spritual teachers, IMO, tend to teach us to be proactive and corrective in these regards.

 

 

 

Wow NBBTB... that was a great story!!!!!!!

[Open_Minded]

Wow... go to work a few hours and look at what happens to the discussion... it goes on wonderfully well without you.

 

Anyway ... I'll jump in and add my .02 while I'm on lunch. This has to be quick ... so I'll appologize before hand at the brief responses.

 

SAA, you asked how we can know this god that is within us is a god of love? My answer would be because it is the natural state of everyone. We are born in this state. It is not only love but joy and peace also. It is our integrety. What person desires to be in pain and to be unhappy all the time? We can look at children and see that they only want to play and have fun...to be happy.

 

Now, if I were to believe that everyone is born evil, then I would expect to see all children clawing and screaming as their natural state. I would expect to see people going home to get uptight instead of wanting to relax. It is only by living and not understanding that we are all one is where the harm enters. It is this dualist nature that we adhere to that causes evil to exist in the first place. It does not exist without us being a cause of it. It is something that it observable, IMO.

 

NBBTL... What a great ANALOGY!!!

 

Yes... NBBTL.... you summed it up better than I ever could. Thank you. Sometimes I say too much and what I'm trying to convey gets lost in the details:)

 

BTW ... I like the way you think.

 

_____________

 

QUOTE(Serene Agnostic Atheist @ Feb 13 2006, 06:35 AM) I feel like even though you are kind people that basically it's "Well, you may not believe you have god within, and that's okay, you still do whether you acknowledge it or not." It grinds me in the same way as a fundy who says, "Well you may not believe in eternal hell, but your going there regardless" I probably feel grinded because for so long Christianity has said, this is how it is! Believe it or not!

 

Or how about another gem? The atheist says, "I don't believe in god", then the Christian replies, "That's alright. He believes in you."

 

That one always makes me roll my eyes and gag.

 

I do appologize if this is the way my wording is coming across. It is not my intent, neither is it the way I feel inside.

 

What I am saying is that when I glimpse (no matter how minutely) the vastness of reality, the utter wonder of it. When I am touched by the realization of how interconnected we all are ... the only words that come to mind are:

 

Wonder

Joy

Wisdom - knowingness - awareness

LOVE - MOSTLY LOVE (All mixed in with WISDOM)

Utter and wonderful Power

ONENESS - ISness - Order (purpose)

Silence - Stillness - Peace

 

And when I grasp this infinite - vast - reality for a timeless moment I am intensely aware of ITs presence within all, through all and beyond all. I am in utter awe of IT and the only word I can put to it is "God".

 

(Open_Minded @ Feb 12 2006, 05:11 PM) Jesus is very real to me. There is no way of proving whether he walked the earth, or not. But, it is not the historical Jesus (which by the way no one will ever fully define) that I feel connected to. It is Jesus - THE WORD MADE FLESH. It is the Alpha and the Omega, the I AM, the LOGOS that I feel connected to, and that I experience ... daily I experience this.

OK, I was thinking about this some more. How do you experience this Jesus? What is that nature of this experience? I know it's hard to explain these things, but please try, as it might clue me in some more about how it's different for you.

 

OK... a few disclaimers to start.

1. I recognize that my experiences are entirely subjective
   
2. I recognize people who are something other than Christian can and do have parallel experiences. In fact one of the most fascinating areas of dialog for me is between people of different cultures who have these types of experiencs.
   
3. I do not think everyone should desire to pursue the same path that I have pursued - nor that the path I have chosen is the only legitimate path.
   

When you say, "How do you experience this Jesus?" Please understand that when I think of Jesus I think of the Alpha and the Omega, the I AM, the LOGOS. So... how do I experience this.

 

This is quite difficult to put it to words..... so please do be patient.

 

Right now... I am sitting here looking out my window... it is winter and cold. The trees are bare and the wind is blowing. My home is quiet, the family is off for school and work... and the house is just simply quiet.

 

There is space between me and the windows and space beyond, filled with the cold, windy, winter day. But... in all this. In the space, in the silence, in the cold winter outdoors, in the trees without leaves, in my living room, in the silence is an sacred stillness or vastness. An eternal infinite ONENESS. PURE Energy within all, through all and beyond all. A ONENESS of Wisdom/Love infinitely creating.

 

It is now something that I am aware of the same way one is aware of time - or of space. It is a part of my daily life ... this infinite interconnectedness, this oneness. I cannot separate myself from it - anymore than I can separate myself from time, or space.

 

Please do understand that I recognize the subjectivity of these experiences. I also recognize that I interpret this part of my life through a language (for me the language of Christianity).

 

But... also recognize that I am not alone. That these experiences can be found in all cultures - across all recorded periods of history and across world view. These ONENESS experiences are foundational to all the mystic traditions. My experiences may be odd to many of you, but they are not without historical context.

 

Everyone... I wish I could write more. But... I really do have to get back online for a work session with a client.

 

I will rejoin you when I can.

 

Thank you for your patience with my inept wording. But there are some things in life that are quite beyond language.

 

So... if the words trouble you, or cause you pain, I do appologize. In no way do I intend to convey that the way I experience life is somehow "better" than the way you have experienced life. Please remember... I came here to learn from all of you. From the get go ... you all had knowledge that I wanted. I do not consider my life experiences better than yours, only different. And I am grateful that you have all been willing to educate me a bit, with your own life experiences.

 

In Peace:

Open_Minded

[NotBlinded]

There is space between me and the windows and space beyond, filled with the cold, windy, winter day. But... in all this. In the space, in the silence, in the cold winter outdoors, in the trees without leaves, in my living room, in the silence is an sacred stillness or vastness. An eternal infinite ONENESS. PURE Energy within all, through all and beyond all. A ONENESS of Wisdom/Love infinitely creating.

I like the way you think too O-M!

 

This is very profound because everything that happens happens from this silence and space. Any sound that arises soon disappears back into silence. All forms come into existence in/from space. It is a oneness that is always present, but usually not noticed.

[dibby]

The best analogy for this stuff I know is an experience we all have. Dreaming.

When we dream at night we think we are the character we appear to be in the dream. But this is only our apparent nature, which is separate from every other character and thing in the dream world. All sorts of things can happen in the dream world...nice things, bad things etc. When we wake up we realise that although we were a character in the dream world, actually the dream world was in us! Becoming conscious gives us a perspective we never had before.

 

The same is happening now. We are people , apparently separate, living in our shared world. But our true nature is the one awareness, within which, this "dream" of life is arising! We are characters, personas of god (awareness, consciousness, whatever you wanna call it!) in the process of waking up to who we really are.

 

This one philosophy is found in all spiritual traditions. Buddha said, "I,m awake" when asked to describe who he was. Above the temple of the Oracle of Delphi were the words "Know thyself". The gnostics (pagan and christian) talk of the need to awaken and rouse ourselves from the world of appearances.....(remember: "Be ye in the world, but not of it?")

Hope this helps...if even a little.

[scotter]

Thanks for sharing the intimacy, OM.

 

I would like to add two cents:

If readers find OM’s experience somewhat abstract and difficult to grasp, I recommend the following that articulate and elaborate OM’s in the various context:

 

Theoretical perspective:

William James “The Varieties of Religious Experience”

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679640118

 

Technical perspective:

Marghanita Laski “Ecstasy in Secular and Religious Experience”

(link not available, perhaps you will find it in your city library)

 

Spiritual Perspective:

Lucinda Vardey “God in All Worlds” particularly “Spiritual Experience” and “The Struggle with Evil” par this thread.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679745432/

 

btw OM, I am having the book “Mystic Heart” in my hands, checked out from library. See how the reading experience goes.

[Antlerman]

I don't know why but I just blurted this out yesterday on another thread. See if it makes sense to this conversation:

 

Curious? What makes truth the truth and a lie a lie? Why are so many people willing to base their beliefs on something they believe is true?

"Truth" is what serves us best. "Lie" is what doesn't. Good=Truth, Bad=Lie. God=Good, Evil=Bad. "Truth" is a mythology. "God" is "Truth".

 

(sorry, just processing out loud there )

 

God is a symbol of human aspiration. God is not a real reality outside that. I agree with Grinch about the Universe being impersonal. Back to what I tried to state yesterday, human nature is such that we benefit through cooperation. We all operated on all levels through self-interest. At the same time, we all have greed inside of us, but that GREED works against our own best interests in harming the greater benefits that comes through cooperation. Pursuing peace promotes cooperation. Demonizing Greed, promotes cooperation. We call things that promote cooperation "good", and we demonize greed calling it "evil".

 

God is our symbol of "good". So yes, there is in that one sense, a "characteristic" of humans that we have inherited through race memory that could be called "natural" that leans us toward functioning in society through cooperation. And as in all genetic inheritance you have aberrations such as two heads, tails, and Osama Bin Laden.

 

We promote the ideal of Love, Peace, Patience, Compassion, Selflessness, etc, because it benefits us. Pure and simple. Greed only benefits the one. Both systems work effectively to get humans what we want, but only one works for the majority. Impatience leads to Greed, leads to... etc. Our ancestors learned this and passed socialization down to us, genetically and culturally.

 

So these "leanings" towards a god system, are probably part of this inheritance. "God" as a symbol and promotional mechanism of theses aspirations, as defined by societies back in history, did in fact work for them for that purpose. But that "God" is outdated and is broken. "God" needs to be updated to address modern thought. The struggle we see today I believe stems around this growing pain.

 

Words like Good and Evil are holdovers from historical understandings of God. Long and short of it, calling "good" "God" would sort of still be valid - in certain contexts - because the idea is to promote cooperation. But we are too acutely aware of the relativism of morals in today's world for terms like to be spoken with the connotation of absolute qualities. People like SAA and Grinch (and me), will of course find exceptions to point out.

 

I'll leave it there for now; for one thing, I had to leave....

 

P.S. I’m sort of processing out loud, but thought I’d throw this out there

 

 

Edit: I did want to add something to everything I said, to put things in a little more balanced perspective: A god system is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact I think it can be very beneficial for many people (excepting fundamentalism of course). I like the eyes wide open approach to embracing mythology. I have no disrespect whatsoever for that, and in many regards I admire it.

[thunderbolt]

Thanks Antlerman!

 

Just what I need to hear, and like SAA, I agree with what you said.

[Amanda]

The same is happening now. We are people , apparently separate, living in our shared world. But our true nature is the one awareness, within which, this "dream" of life is arising! We are characters, personas of god (awareness, consciousness, whatever you wanna call it!) in the process of waking up to who we really are.

 

This one philosophy is found in all spiritual traditions. Buddha said, "I,m awake" when asked to describe who he was. Above the temple of the Oracle of Delphi were the words "Know thyself". The gnostics (pagan and christian) talk of the need to awaken and rouse ourselves from the world of appearances.....(remember: "Be ye in the world, but not of it?")

Hope this helps...if even a little.

Hi Dibby! You're fairly new to these forums. Welcome! I like your post! Hope you do more of it!

[Open_Minded]

Amanda and Open_Minded.... maybe I just don't understand spirituality but I certainly understand that both of you are great people who believe differently than I do when it comes to humanity. Despite our differences I believe that we certainly have the same goals towards everyone and every living thing in this world that we live in....I cannot fault you for that. Your views are not from fear but come solely from love within you, much like me. I'm so much better a person without the Christianity that I had only known. Perhaps I'll never be able to see the Abrahamic religions in a positive light but as mentioned elsewhere, there are many other philosophies presented in other books and such.

 

Thanks for your time and patience with me in this discussion.

 

Oh... SAA ... you understand spirituality. You just understand a different side than the side Amanda and I are acquainted with, that is all. You start a thread like this? How much have we all learned in this thread? I have learned a great deal in my ongoing search.

 

Scotter mentioned a book (by Wayne Teasdale) that I'd recommended before:

 

btw OM, I am having the book “Mystic Heart” in my hands, checked out from library. See how the reading experience goes.

 

I'm going to quote Wayne Teasdale a bit, I think we can all learn from him.

 

In defining Spirituality

 

The spiritual person is committed to growth as an essential, ongoing life goal. <Snip> A genuinely spiritual person passionately commits to this inner development. He or she knows that life is a spiritual journey, and that each one of us must take this journey alone, even while surrounded by loved ones.

 

How we make this journey is what spirituality is really about. No manual for the inner life fits the needs of all people.

Finding our own path is part of what it means to have a measure of independence and

inner directedness

.

 

Spirituality is NOT about some "special" insight that some people have and others don't have. Spirituality is about an inner search that everyone of us is on.. Every one involved in this discussion is seeking answers. That inner seeking IS spirituality. We all have insight to bring to the larger picture. As I said in another post .... I came here looking to learn... to grow my own inner search. Our lives have given each of us wisdom of our own. It is in the sharing of that wisdom that we all grow. SAA you share that wisdom in starting such a thread and in being so open and honest about your own perspective.

 

Antlerman: God is a symbol of human aspiration. God is not a real reality outside that. I agree with Grinch about the Universe being impersonal

 

I understand that you (and many others) experience the universe as impersonal. Please understand that I (and many others) experience ultimate reality as VERY personal. Here... is the key. In a concrete - scientific sense of "Knowing" none of us really knows. As my grandmother said to me once, "Well I don't know and you don't know - but someday we'll all know". Or maybe we won't

 

Another way to look at this goes back to yet one more quote from Wayne Teasdale.

 

The curiously interspiritual metaphor of the blind men and the elephant - a story claimed by the Hindu, Jain, and Buddhist traditions - helps us understand the trajectory of interspirituality in terms of this larger universal responsibility. As the story has it, some blind men stumble ACROSS AN ELEPHANT. Each tries to describe the elephant by touching it. One feels its trunk, and proclaims the elephant to be solid and wide. Another feels its tail, and describes it as thin and spindly. A third pats its ears, and assumes it is flat and floppy. A fourth touches its side, and concludes the elephant to be a rather nondescript, rough-textured being. On and on it goes. Each man knows one aspect, but none can comprehend the whole.

 

The religions find themselves in a similar predicament in attempting to describe the nature of ultimate reality. The Christians, Jews, and Moslems say the elephant is a personal being with a head, eyes, ears, nose, mouth, and trunk. The Hindus say its nature is expressed in its feet, tail, size, and weight, thus a suitable beast of burden. The Jains and Buddhists chime in that the elephant is basically nondescript because they can only feel its sides and skin.

 

In the end ... what we are discussing is ultimate reality ... completely beyond the full grasp of any one of us (or of any particular philosophy, religion, science, etc...). I think we owe it enough reverence to admit that - in the final analysis - none of us have a clue.

[Antlerman]

Antlerman: God is a symbol of human aspiration. God is not a real reality outside that. I agree with Grinch about the Universe being impersonal

 

I understand that you (and many others) experience the universe as impersonal. Please understand that I (and many others) experience ultimate reality as VERY personal. Here... is the key. In a concrete - scientific sense of "Knowing" none of us really knows. As my grandmother said to me once, "Well I don't know and you don't know - but someday we'll all know". Or maybe we won't

Alright, I'm might throw you for a loop with this: But I didn't say I don't experience the universe as personal. I simply said the universe is impersonal.

 

Allow me ask you this question: Would it make sense to you how someone who views the universe as impersonal, might be able to experience a personal connection with it, or put another way view it as personal on a spiritual level, without romanticizing it?

 

Edit: BTW, If you can answer this question for me, then I will owe you a bottle of champagne!!

[Open_Minded]

Alright, I'm might throw you for a loop with this: But I didn't say I don't experience the universe as personal. I simply said the universe is impersonal.

 

Allow me ask you this question: Would it make sense to you how someone who views the universe as impersonal, might be able to experience a personal connection with it, or put another way view it as personal on a spiritual level, without romanticizing it?

 

Edit: BTW, If you can answer this question for me, then I will owe you a bottle of champagne!!

 

Hello Antlerman

 

You're going to have to unwrap that question for me a bit.

 

Keep in mind that a hate champagne. You'll have to make the stakes a bit more interesting.

 

 

Off to meditation group ... talk to you all later.

[Amanda]

Would it make sense to you how someone who views the universe as impersonal, might be able to experience a personal connection with it, or put another way view it as personal on a spiritual level, without romanticizing it?

 

Antlerman, I think one way to view the universe, and more easily the world and this solar system much more personally is to see us as part of this living organism. We need plants to breathe, they need us to breathe, every breath we breathe has been inhaled and exhaled by just about every other creature, we all die and disintegrate and used as nourishment for plants and something eats the plants and we eat that. We are ALL recycled together, containing bits and pieces of everything. It is even said that all life could have only existed because of an impact or material imparted from an asteroid or such. We all initially came out of the Big Bang together, evolved from basically the same decendents, etc., etc., etc.. We may be the last thing to evolve in this chain reaction, however I think we will eventually see it as our duty to take care of it all here on earth. Maybe that's not the emphasis of spirituality, yet isn't all that and more a somewhat personal bond to ALL things?

[Antlerman]

Antlerman, I think one way to view the universe, and more easily the world and this solar system much more personally is to see us as part of this living organism.

Well, yes indeed. This was my big moment of post religious awakening when I realized the wonderful connection to all of life my existence was. This is very much my how I feel a personal connection with life as part of it. Absolutely. Having realized human beings are not some special 6th day creation apart from all other animals and put over them as their superior, was my moment of awakening.

 

But where I have to get OM to help me out a little here is that old dichotomy between rational knowing and spiritual knowing. Rationally, I know there is no romantic ideal of a loving universe. Yet emotionally/spiritually we react to a simply biological/sociological programmed response to the world that suits our needs best. Now that meaningfulness that we assign to it is what mythology is all about.

 

Is there anything wrong with just embracing these meanings? Well yes and no. Yes, IMO, if we build all sorts of structures around that meaning to support it which flies headlong in opposition to rational thought. But No, I would suggest, if there is an acceptance of the universe on a non-romantic, rational level, since it appears that is where the puzzle pieces fit best without strange actions to force fit them, then to simply take that "response" to nature and life on an emotional, non-rational level and embrace it as meaningful, without defense of reason.

 

Damn. Did that make any sense? Am I answering my own question, or am I circling around myself again OM?

 

BTW, if you don't like champagne, do you like good beers? I'm going to open a bottle of St. Bernardus Abt 12 tonight. Probably the best beer in the entire world. So... incentive for you???

[Open_Minded]

Would it make sense to you how someone who views the universe as impersonal, might be able to experience a personal connection with it, or put another way view it as personal on a spiritual level, without romanticizing it?

Antlerman, I think one way to view the universe, and more easily the world and this solar system much more personally is to see us as part of this living organism.

 

Wonderfully said, Amanda, wonderfully said.. (I use the word "wonderful" intentionally) And what a true wonder it is to realize ourselves as part of a living organism.

 

Well, yes indeed. This was my big moment of post religious awakening when I realized the wonderful connection to all of life my existence was. This is very much my how I feel a personal connection with life as part of it.

 

OK... so far I'm tracking with both of you..... And I agree completely.

 

But where I have to get OM to help me out a little here is that old dichotomy between rational knowing and spiritual knowing. Rationally, I know there is no romantic ideal of a loving universe. Yet emotionally/spiritually we react to a simply biological/sociological programmed response to the world that suits our needs best. Now that meaningfulness that we assign to it is what mythology is all about.

 

Is there anything wrong with just embracing these meanings? Well yes and no. Yes, IMO, if we build all sorts of structures around that meaning to support it which flies headlong in opposition to rational thought. But No, I would suggest, if there is an acceptance of the universe on a non-romantic, rational level, since it appears that is where the puzzle pieces fit best without strange actions to force fit them, then to simply take that "response" to nature and life on an emotional, non-rational level and embrace it as meaningful, without defense of reason.

 

Antlerman ... I am really trying here... but I am afraid that I'm a bit lost. I'm going to go for it ... and if I go way off track... just pull me back in, OK?

 

What I think you are asking is how one reconciles rational knowing and spiritual knowing in regards to ultimate reality?

 

I guess my answer is a question?

 

Why must we reconcile it? Why can't we honestly recognize that we are in fact dealing with puzzle pieces?

 

On the one hand the puzzle has very dark pieces. On the other hand it has very light pieces. Some are vibrant and "fit" easily into the bigger picture. Some of the pieces we can't find a place for, and yet we know they can not be thrown out either. And some pieces we simply do not have. We are left with a partial picture.

 

On the one hand the universe is in fact very impersonal - on the other hand we can experience it in very personal ways. Why must we reconcile this?

 

To me ... the minute human beings try to reconcile things that are ultimately unknowable (at least in this lifetime) is when we start creating theology and religion. And ... well we all know where that has gotten us.

 

Theology has its place ... and so does religion. But, they are partial answers - we are finite beings trying to figure out the infinite living organism - of which we are only a puny participating portion of. It's like asking the tree to define and comprehend the forest. The ONLY way the tree can comprehend the forest is to participate in the forest.

 

So... for me ... it's completely OK to comprehend the infinite simply by participating in it. Our only responsibility in the process is to be honest and recognize that our participation is individual and subjective. And that we've no right to expect others to experience (or participate) in this infinite reality the way we do.

 

I'm starting to run off at the mouth here... and so I'm going to let it go. Amanda and NotBlinded are much more concise than I am....

 

Antlerman... I hope this helps answer your question. If not just - pull me back on track - and I'll try to catch up.

 

If it does answer your questions, forget the champagne and beer. A nice box of chocolates will do.

[Alice]

Amanda and Open_Minded.... maybe I just don't understand spirituality but I certainly understand that both of you are great people who believe differently than I do when it comes to humanity. Despite our differences I believe that we certainly have the same goals towards everyone and every living thing in this world that we live in....I cannot fault you for that. Your views are not from fear but come solely from love within you, much like me. I'm so much better a person without the Christianity that I had only known.

 

I wondered if this would help in terms of 'understanding spirituality'. To me, spirituality goes way beyond discussions about God ... If we take apart the whole 'God is love' thing and drop the 'God is' bit and just talk about love for the moment ...

 

One of my pet interests is neuro science behind psychology ~ I'm very much the dilettante when it comes to this subject, so my 'understanding' is a muchly simplified one

 

I am fascinated by the chemical functioning of the brain and the fact that many of the emotions we experience appear to be simply 'chemical reactions'. It seems the 'love' we feel for others is just a rosy romantic term for a chemical reaction ...

 

Remember those fairy tales - where someone is given magic potion and they 'fall in love' with the first person they see?! - We are now only a few steps away from this possibly being a possibility - we are certainly close to having the ability to manipulate brain function so that we continue to 'feel' love. One of my favourite discussion questions at the moment is 'if there was a drug that would keep you in love with your partner - would you take it?' and this then often leads on to questions like 'should such a drug be prescribed to parents for the duration of their children's minority?' ...

 

In case you are wondering - my answer is NO, (eventhough I can see that a HUGE amount of heartbreak could be avoided for many by a yes vote) you see - whilst I accept that brain function and chemicals is the tangible concrete reality of that loving feeling - I believe in a spiritual transcendent quality to love. This belief uplifts me and sustains me and nourishes me. I have a 'romantic' belief that if somehow I was given a drug that altered and diminished my 'love hormones' for those I love - that somehow - magically, spiritually, wonderfully, I would be able to overturn what was happening and that real love would win the day .....

 

Although if I suffered terrible brain damage in some kind of tragic accident ... I guess it wouldn't - I guess my capacity to love would be gone .... (but I don't like this particular 'truth' and I only like stories where there is a way for the communication of love to continue somehow)

 

What I'm trying to say - is that I recognise that there is a rational concrete reality to love, in the fact that 'love is a chemical reaction' - I also believe that 'love is transcendent and full of spiritual power. I suspect at times that my romantic beliefs in something transcendent and spiritual are delusional - but these incredible sensations and emotions I 'experience' - are all the more powerful in my hope that they are something more than 'chemical' reactions.

 

SAA - can I ask you, do you think that 'real' love exists? What does this question 'mean' to you? Do you believe in a transendent spiritual quality to love, or is love just a 'chemical' reaction that can be diminished or increased by altering the chemical functioning of the brain?

 

These are questions that to me seem utterly linked to any discussion of spirituality - I hope that they make sense.

[Open_Minded]

What I'm trying to say - is that I recognise that there is a rational concrete reality to love, in the fact that 'love is a chemical reaction' - I also believe that 'love is transcendent and full of spiritual power. I suspect at times that my romantic beliefs in something transcendent and spiritual are delusional - but these incredible sensations and emotions I 'experience' - are all the more powerful in my hope that they are something more than 'chemical' reactions.

 

SAA - can I ask you, do you think that 'real' love exists? What does this question 'mean' to you? Do you believe in a transendent spiritual quality to love, or is love just a 'chemical' reaction that can be diminished or increased by altering the chemical functioning of the brain?

 

These are questions that to me seem utterly linked to any discussion of spirituality - I hope that they make sense.

 

Excellent Post.... Alice.

 

This is why I am fascinated with these types of discussions. It never fails ... someone will pull some "rabbit out of the hat" and the discussion takes an absolutely blissful turn.

 

I've some thoughts of my own, but am really interested in hearing SAA's response and the feelings of others first .

 

[Alice]

Ditto! Alice's post was wonderful. I won't be on much today for discussion, I have a nasty headcold and DH took the day off to care for me. Not like I'm dying or anything but, he insists

 

Open_Minded, Alice's post hit home even moreso because yesterday I received the oneness book. I cannot tell you the strange and overwhelming feelings of happiness that swept through me as I could not put the book down and went chapter to chapter. I know this sounds like a cliche' but I was uplifted. Reading such wonderful bits like that all positive and all how I already feel people should be treated, it almost brought me to tears and not because of a belief in "god" but more probably along the lines of what Alice is saying.

 

Alice...I wouldn't take that drink/pill to make me stay in love either.

 

Sorry guys, my head hurts, my nose is stuffed, my ear itches....can't concentrate on a making a more thoughtful reply. I'll be reading here today, just not posting. You guys have a super day! Happy Valentines!!

 

 

What oneness book ...... give me details now ... I must have a copy ... tell me tell me ...

 

I mean - please could you give me some details when you have time and not until you are better

 

Sometimes labels are so limiting ...

 

I'm off to a funeral now. I'm really glad you posted before I left SAA - I'd been hanging on to see if you would.

 

I'm going with a friend - I do not know the person whose funeral it is (I don't even know her name!) I'm going to support my friend. Its complicated. Its another cancer death in one too young and a strikes a terrible cord at the moment because my friends own sister is dying from cancer and will leave a young family behind.

 

I do not know why I share this other than it was in my mind when I posted. I guess I'm really looking for and hoping for the transcendent today.

 

Sometimes being part of the human race is both the best and worst of things at the same time.

[Antlerman]

Alice is wonderfully correct in how she stated this, and I fully agree. What you posted is exactly what I have been driving at this whole time. There is that romantic ideal I have about the Universe which I experience on a deeply personal level, yet I am also keenly aware that all the edifices we create to support that are ultimately artificial from a tangible, rational analysis. I’m going to run with this a little to flesh out some thoughts.

 

The conflict that occurs for people it seems, is when the romantic ideas or mythologies are defended rationally, or tried to be explained using rational terms. These are non-rational “truths” on an experiential level. Everything that follows using rational human language is unable to communicate concepts outside rational thought.

 

I am seeing that the problem is in having a discussion of these things using our common language of daily life. When someone hears “Love is everywhere”, well clearly this is not true rationally. Yet “Love is everywhere” spoken in a moment of emotional/spiritual inspiration is an expression of a valid internal sense using rational language.

 

I’m beginning to see why music has so much meaning for me. It allows my spirit to visualize meaningful concepts of a transcendent nature through a language that to me in my cultural experience has no other conflicting meanings associated with it! (Music can also be a tangible form of communication, such as a call to battle, etc – but those associated meanings have no place in my experience and do not interfere with the music as a vehicle of transcendent experience to me.)

 

Does the heart of the problem lay with people trying to use language that has little to no significance elsewhere in the real world to them, but to others has tangible meaning that conflicts with the romantic, expressive use of those terms? “Love is everywhere”, “No it’s not!” The latter response does not mean that person is non-spiritual, but is simply lacking either an appropriate language to express it, or an appropriate language that would allow them to explore those intangible, irrational, transcendent meanings without a conflict.

 

“God” worked until science came along. Now “God” can be reached an analyzed by us, and religion must now move him out further to a newer more distant plane out of our reach where the rational can’t touch him again. Symbols of the Transcendent must be outside the temporal to have power. We need a new language that can’t be touched. Is this the source of the whole problem?

 

OM, I’m still getting you a box of chocolates! Truffles Ok?

[Amanda]

Antlerman, you seem to me to have strong inclinations towards an objective, scientific kind of perspective... may I ask what you think of 'intuition'? Intuition as it is defined here as the power or faculty of attaining to direct knowledge or cognition without evident rational thought and inference. I'm just curious what relative value you give this phenomenon.

[Open_Minded]

What oneness book ...... give me details now ... I must have a copy ... tell me tell me ...

 

I mean - please could you give me some details when you have time and not until you are better

 

 

Hello Everyone:

 

Just a quick jump in here... then back to work.

 

ONENESS: GREAT PRINCIPLES SHARED BY ALL RELIGIONS

By Jeffrey Moses, with an Introduction by His Holiness The Dalai Lama

 

http://www.onenessonline.com/

 

 

SAA ... I hope you feel better soon.

 

 

I'm off to a funeral now. I'm really glad you posted before I left SAA - I'd been hanging on to see if you would.

 

I'm going with a friend - I do not know the person whose funeral it is (I don't even know her name!) I'm going to support my friend. Its complicated. Its another cancer death in one too young and a strikes a terrible cord at the moment because my friends own sister is dying from cancer and will leave a young family behind.

 

I do not know why I share this other than it was in my mind when I posted. I guess I'm really looking for and hoping for the transcendent today.

 

Sometimes being part of the human race is both the best and worst of things at the same time

 

Alice... yes... sometimes life truly does suck.

 

I'm sorry for your friend. Our extended family is dealing with cancer now, too. There is nothing good to say about it.

 

More later... back to work ...

[NotBlinded]

...Nice post!...

Alice,

 

I was listening this morning to Dr. David Hawkins and he was speaking about love. There is the love of the ego, which can be lost, and then there is the love that is within us that can never be lost.

 

This is my take on it...

 

When we feel romantic love, we are experiencing a love that can be lost. Either one of the parties can fall out of love. This is not the love that spirituality speaks of, IMO. It is a deeper understanding that everyone is the same and we are all part of a larger consciousness. Hawkins relates this consciousness to a huge electromagnetic field that holds everything together. The love that generates from understanding the 'wholeness' of everything, is what this love is. With this understanding, love comes from inside you and it no longer matters whether anybody else loves you or not. You will still feel love regardless if they fall out of love with you.

 

I think the love we feel in romantic situations, initially, begins with these chemical reactions and then our mind (egos) likes this feeling so we continue to believe that we are truly in love. This is the love of the mind. I am not saying that this love will not progress to spiritual love because I believe it can, but only by knowing that you and your other are one in the same spirit. This is the love the world needs, IMO.

 

I probably didn't do Hawkins justice, but I hope it makes some sense.

[Amanda]

It is a deeper understanding that everyone is the same and we are all part of a larger consciousness. Hawkins relates this consciousness to a huge electromagnetic field that holds everything together. The love that generates from understanding the 'wholeness' of everything, is what this love is. With this understanding, love comes from inside you and it no longer matters whether anybody else loves you or not. You will still feel love regardless if they fall out of love with you.

Wow! NBBTB... that reminds me of something someone else said... something along these lines, and when mankind reaches collectively a certain level of what you spoke of here... it will put us in a higher 'vibratory' level! It seems that once an idea starts going, it does seem to take on a life of its own... and the momentum of it and its effects seem to naturally become a presupposition and therfore deeply ingrained... putting us on a higher vibratory level! I don't know much about this... have you or anyone else heard and understand this?

[Antlerman]

Antlerman, you seem to me to have strong inclinations towards an objective, scientific kind of perspective... may I ask what you think of 'intuition'? Intuition as it is defined here as the power or faculty of attaining to direct knowledge or cognition without evident rational thought and inference. I'm just curious what relative value you give this phenomenon.

I have inclinations to both, but I guess probably out of self-preservation and past experience, I lean slightly more towards placing confidence in rationality.

 

To address the questions of “intuition” and whatnot: This is one of those things I see abused as something “mystical”. I do not accept that these “intuitions” come from some force outside ourselves – even if we define in some fashion that the force is “within us”. Intuition is really just people responding to “triggers” that the collective experiences are “picking up on”, even though they cannot rationally explain why they are getting a particular “impression”.

 

Many times for myself I am presented with a situation where I can’t really “explain” why I have a “feeling” about something not being “right”. I’ve learned to trust that when I get these sorts of “impressions”, there is a good percentage of the time I am in fact picking up on something and it turns out to be a correct impression.

 

Is this mystical? NO. People’s minds can become very “tuned” to these verbal, non-verbal, visual, etc. cues. Shamans and other “ESP” type phenomena are largely individuals with hyper-aware senses that “see things” that others are less tuned into. I write music. Some people can look at me as some sort of vehicle of divine inspiration, but that is just heaping mythology onto it. Nothing magical, nothing mystical, except in the eye of the beholder – and that’s my point.

 

Is ESP, and all those other Oooh, and Ahhhh sensational “phenomena” something outside the *real* natural 5 senses? I doubt it. Animals know to hide from storms, and the popular culture likes to exploit these things on a mystical level to sell books and whatnot. But really, it’s just a learned behavior that gets passed down through societies and genetics. We as humans tend to have lost this “hyper” awareness through disuse within modern society, but it remains no indication of anything greater than what we already know about the natural. I see making something “mystical” about these things as just candy for popular culture that has no substantive value for genuine nourishment.

 

But… despite all that cold-hearted assessment I don’t have a problem with some forms of spiritual leaps of faith. I just do not care for taking what has perfectly reasonable, natural explanations and trying to force it through faith to mean something transcendent. To me it is unavoidable to feel like it is shutting my brain off against the most tested approach to knowledge we have in order to accept this “mystical” explanation of natural phenomena, in the hopes that it provides some sort of “indication” of the transcendent. As a vehicle to take my spirit from the natural to the transcendent, it can never work because it strongly impresses me as being accomplished by ignoring all the reasonable evidence. To rational people, it is maddening to see the lengths people will go to make things fit this approach to finding transcendent meaning. That whole “evidence” approach is a broken system in today’s world, IMO.

 

Again, the motives behind all these things is the search to find a new or better mythology to stick "God" into. IMO, this approach fails to do so. Everything we are seeing is people moving God from Gap to Gap in knowledge, and those gaps are getting narrower and narrower. I think there actually is an answer. Find the ultimate answer of “consciousness" in Quantum physics? Go ahead, it may work and be popular for a little while, but it too will fail as all other God in science approaches have. I guess I would approach trying to find a mythology that has nothing whatesover to do with the natural, and stick with that.