More Specific Questions For Liberal/universalists Christians

[NotBlinded]

It is a deeper understanding that everyone is the same and we are all part of a larger consciousness. Hawkins relates this consciousness to a huge electromagnetic field that holds everything together. The love that generates from understanding the 'wholeness' of everything, is what this love is. With this understanding, love comes from inside you and it no longer matters whether anybody else loves you or not. You will still feel love regardless if they fall out of love with you.

Wow! NBBTB... that reminds me of something someone else said... something along these lines, and when mankind reaches collectively a certain level of what you spoke of here... it will put us in a higher 'vibratory' level! It seems that once an idea starts going, it does seem to take on a life of its own... and the momentum of it and its effects seem to naturally become a presupposition and therfore deeply ingrained... putting us on a higher vibratory level! I don't know much about this... have you or anyone else heard and understand this?

Yes...here is a pretty good, small article: You Make A Difference

[NotBlinded]

I have inclinations to both, but I guess probably out of self-preservation and past experience, I lean slightly more towards placing confidence in rationality.

 

To address the questions of “intuition” and whatnot: This is one of those things I see abused as something “mystical”. I do not accept that these “intuitions” come from some force outside ourselves – even if we define in some fashion that the force is “within us”. Intuition is really just people responding to “triggers” that the collective experiences are “picking up on”, even though they cannot rationally explain why they are getting a particular “impression”.

 

Many times for myself I am presented with a situation where I can’t really “explain” why I have a “feeling” about something not being “right”. I’ve learned to trust that when I get these sorts of “impressions”, there is a good percentage of the time I am in fact picking up on something and it turns out to be a correct impression.

 

Is this mystical? NO. People’s minds can become very “tuned” to these verbal, non-verbal, visual, etc. cues. Shamans and other “ESP” type phenomena are largely individuals with hyper-aware senses that “see things” that others are less tuned into. I write music. Some people can look at me as some sort of vehicle of divine inspiration, but that is just heaping mythology onto it. Nothing magical, nothing mystical, except in the eye of the beholder – and that’s my point.

 

Is ESP, and all those other Oooh, and Ahhhh sensational “phenomena” something outside the *real* natural 5 senses? I doubt it. Animals know to hide from storms, and the popular culture likes to exploit these things on a mystical level to sell books and whatnot. But really, it’s just a learned behavior that gets passed down through societies and genetics. We as humans tend to have lost this “hyper” awareness through disuse within modern society, but it remains no indication of anything greater than what we already know about the natural. I see making something “mystical” about these things as just candy for popular culture that has no substantive value for genuine nourishment.

I think that rational people would recognize that what you said above in the area I bolded (not the latter that you bolded) and what I say, is the same thing (said teasingly ). Of course it's perfectly natural...the transcendant is perfectly natural also. They only need to be separated as parts of the whole collective because one can be described by words and the other (the transcendant) can only be understood by intuition. The whole is greater than its parts, IMO.

[NotBlinded]

Hey guys, feeling much better now.

 

I want to bring up evolution of humans in regards to humanity...don't you all believe it's gotten worse and not better?

But a rainbow appears after the storm passes... And, I'm glad you're feeling better.

 

Edit: I decided I need to add a little to that warm and fuzzy thought...

 

Now is the time for an awakening to happen or humans won't survive. We go through our lives just thinking that we are who we think we are and others are separate from us so we can destroy them without any thought. I believe this hell we create has gone on long enough and many people are becoming aware that hell is on earth, not somewhere else. This awakening, IMO, will save humanity.

 

It is much more detailed, but I just can't seem to do coherent thoughts today...

[NotBlinded]

I decided to paste an excerpt from Eckhart Tolle in order to explain what I wanted to say. There is more meaning if you wish to read the whole interview here.

 

"But there's a shift happening in humanity, a shift in consciousness, happening now because it has to happen now. Because if it doesn't happen now, mankind probably won't survive. The dysfunction of the human mind and its condition is becoming more and more intolerable to the planet, and to humanity. People can't live with themselves much longer. The planet cannot live with humans much longer! The dysfunction has become so magnified through technology.

 

Whereas before, a human could kill a few hundred with a sword---if he was a warrior--- now, the same dysfunction is magnified. So we have the weaponry, destruction of the planet, pollution, destruction of forests, countless manifestations of humans using their intelligence in the service of the dysfunction, the madness. It's a strange juxtaposition. Humans are intelligent, but if you look at history or even watch TV, they're also incredibly stupid.

 

JM: Speaking of weapons of mass destruction; what do we do about that? What do we do about countries which wish our country great harm? What's an alternative if the other side is bent on suicide, as the men of 9-11 were? If you have a vast Army at your disposal, what do you do?

 

ET: I don't know what I would do, because I can only know what is right in an actual situation which demands a response. It's very hard when you look at hypotheticals. What we can do is look at the dysfunction in its collective aspects that we're witnessing now.

 

We can see, for example, what's happening in the middle East with the eternal insane conflict between Israel and Palestine. We can see how each faction is totally convinced that their mental position is the correct one. Each faction sees itself as the victim of the other. There was a writer I read last year who said each side cannot recognize any narrative other than their own; that's also true. Narrative means the story through which you interpret reality.

 

People have collective stories which are mental perspectives and mental positions. Of course, when they explain it to you, it sounds absolutely right. Then you go to the other story, and they explain it to you, and that sounds absolutely right. Both are so entrenched in their narrative, their mental positions and their identifications with mental positions that they cannot see anything else. That really symbolizes the very thing that lies at the core of human dysfunction.

 

There you see it expressed collectively. An inability to hold truth in your consciousness. To rise above polarities, and say, here's this perspective which is ours, and I can also see the other perspective which is yours. If both could do that---even if one party could do that---there would be an end to the madness. It only gets perpetuated by two. You can see the same in personal relationships, you can see the same in marriages that exist in a state of warfare. Both are entrenched. There is this ongoing need to be right. What that really ultimately means is they are identified with the thinking. They have not stepped out of the structure of thought---their mental position, their thought position. The way out of the madness is to recognize thought as just thought. To see your own stream of thinking, to see that no thought can encapsulate the entire truth in any situation. You have to step out of thought to see that. To become the awareness outside of thought. Some people are driven out of thought out of suffering, others can step out of thought because they see that thought is dysfunctional. So we see then that terrorists that inflict suffering on innocent people, kills thousands, blows himself up---how is it that he cannot see what he is doing?

 

He cannot see because he has reduced other human beings around him to a mental concept. He puts a mental label on other human beings or groups of humans or whatever he calls them---infidels, evil. Once you have conceptualized another human being, covering up their essential aliveness, you also do it to yourself. You become identified with your own self concepts of who you are, because you are right, you are the believer, you are in possession of the truth. You can then inflict acts of violence on other humans without feeling anymore because you've already desensitized yourself, you've deadened their aliveness. So violence becomes very easy when you only operate from the level of thought. Thought plus very destructive emotion that accompanies those destructive thought patterns. That's what drives the terrorist. He truly, as Jesus puts it on the cross, "They know not what they do."

 

In spiritual terms, they are completely unconscious. Unconscious means identified totally with thought. You reduce reality to a conceptual reality. A lot of violence arises in that way.

 

Terrorists are not the only ones who are unconscious. The United States manufactures an enormous amount of totally senseless weaponry. Biological, chemical. They manufacture the most fiendish weapons---if they ever used them it would be hell on earth. Why are they working on this? They are intelligent scientists, thousands of them, the Government sponsors itself sponsors it. What is the purpose in creating such weapons if the use of such weapons would create hell on earth? Haven't they got enough weapons already? So it applies; "they know not what they do." You can see human unconsciousness in so many forms. You can see it very clearly in the terrorists. Sometimes it's easier to see the madness in others---but we also have to see it in ourselves."

[Antlerman]

To address the questions of “intuition” and whatnot: This is one of those things I see abused as something “mystical”. I do not accept that these “intuitions” come from some force outside ourselves – even if we define in some fashion that the force is “within us”. Intuition is really just people responding to “triggers” that the collective experiences {of that particular individual}are “picking up on”, even though they cannot rationally explain why they are getting a particular “impression”.

I think that rational people would recognize that what you said above in the area I bolded (not the latter that you bolded) and what I say, is the same thing (said teasingly ). Of course it's perfectly natural...the transcendant is perfectly natural also. They only need to be separated as parts of the whole collective because one can be described by words and the other (the transcendant) can only be understood by intuition. The whole is greater than its parts, IMO.

I added something in red to my original quote that I should have paid even closer attention to detail in spelling out. I'm being careful to distinguish that I am speaking of the collective experiences of the individual that lend itself to "responding to cues" on a "gut" or "intuitive" level. I should also have added that when I have "intuitions", after the fact when I analyze what I was "picking up on", actually can be explained quite rationally and naturally.

 

In other words I disagree that, "intuition" exists outside rational thought and can only offer insights that rational thought can never access. "Intuition" has its entire being rooted inside the individuals collective experiences, and is a "cue" for the mind to pay attention to something that's bubbling up from that persons collective experiences.

 

The only point I'm citing "intuition" and ESP, et al, as indications of some alternative sphere of knowledge, are pop culture gimmicks. They are not "transcendent" anything. It's the mind reacting to itself. Making a selling point of it to speak of some "higher understanding" is to me like pointing to the minds ability to tie a shoe lace without consciously thinking about it, as an indication of a new level of conscious awareness.

 

Sorry if I'm displaying my cynical side so glaringly. I've just seen so much made of these sorts of sensational things, where it's really hardly worth mentioning. I do recognize great similarities in thought between you and me, and perhaps I am over reacting to this out a knee-jerk response. If so, I apologize.

 

Could you clarify if I'm misunderstanding?

[NotBlinded]

To address the questions of “intuition” and whatnot: This is one of those things I see abused as something “mystical”. I do not accept that these “intuitions” come from some force outside ourselves – even if we define in some fashion that the force is “within us”. Intuition is really just people responding to “triggers” that the collective experiences {of that particular individual}are “picking up on”, even though they cannot rationally explain why they are getting a particular “impression”.

I think that rational people would recognize that what you said above in the area I bolded (not the latter that you bolded) and what I say, is the same thing (said teasingly ). Of course it's perfectly natural...the transcendant is perfectly natural also. They only need to be separated as parts of the whole collective because one can be described by words and the other (the transcendant) can only be understood by intuition. The whole is greater than its parts, IMO.

I added something in red to my original quote that I should have paid even closer attention to detail in spelling out. I'm being careful to distinguish that I am speaking of the collective experiences of the individual that lend itself to "responding to cues" on a "gut" or "intuitive" level. I should also have added that when I have "intuitions", after the fact when I analyze what I was "picking up on", actually can be explained quite rationally and naturally.

 

In other words I disagree that, "intuition" exists outside rational thought and can only offer insights that rational thought can never access. "Intuition" has its entire being rooted inside the individuals collective experiences, and is a "cue" for the mind to pay attention to something that's bubbling up from that persons collective experiences.

 

The only point I'm citing "intuition" and ESP, et al, as indications of some alternative sphere of knowledge, are pop culture gimmicks. They are not "transcendent" anything. It's the mind reacting to itself. Making a selling point of it to speak of some "higher understanding" is to me like pointing to the minds ability to tie a shoe lace without consciously thinking about it, as an indication of a new level of conscious awareness.

 

Sorry if I'm displaying my cynical side so glaringly. I've just seen so much made of these sorts of sensational things, where it's really hardly worth mentioning. I do recognize great similarities in thought between you and me, and perhaps I am over reacting to this out a knee-jerk response. If so, I apologize.

 

Could you clarify if I'm misunderstanding?

No...I was misunderstanding Antlerman. I now understand where you are comming from and I do agree...mostly . The shoe tying analogy made me understand. But, (those darn buts!), I wonder about the child that can play music without ever being taught a note. And I once had an experience with intuition that I can't explain even with your insights. I have posted it before, but I will post it again. I was at work and me and this guy were throwing paperballs back and forth to each other. He was sitting behind and to the left of me. We had our fun and we turned around to get back to work. Well, he must have thought it would be fun to sneak a throw in on me and nail me in the back of my head. Out of nowhere, I reached up by my right ear and caught the paper ball that he threw at me. I turned around and his face must have been a reflection of my own because his mouth was open and staring at me with a clueless look on his face. It freaked me out also to say the least. I don't know how I did it and I probably never will. I never saw him throw it or had any reason to believe he was going to throw it and I most certainly never saw it comming! He probably thought I was a witch or something after that!

[dibby]

Hey guys, feeling much better now.

 

I want to bring up evolution of humans in regards to humanity...don't you all believe it's gotten worse and not better?

 

It can look that way. However, I don,t know if watching the news gives us a very balanced picture of what is going on. In a world of polarities it,s always gonna be both good and bad. But our general direction seems to be edging upwards but it could tilt the other way so easily. Europe for instance has, on the whole, been at peace for the longest time in it,s history. It was always at war for hundreds of years before. Sexism, racism, homophobia are becoming less tolerated.

I think we need to stand up for our liberal, tolerant values otherwise we could lose them. Especially because of the pushiness of the religious fundamentalists of all persuasions.

[Open_Minded]

What I'm trying to say - is that I recognise that there is a rational concrete reality to love, in the fact that 'love is a chemical reaction' - I also believe that 'love is transcendent and full of spiritual power. I suspect at times that my romantic beliefs in something transcendent and spiritual are delusional - but these incredible sensations and emotions I 'experience' - are all the more powerful in my hope that they are something more than 'chemical' reactions.

 

SAA - can I ask you, do you think that 'real' love exists? What does this question 'mean' to you? Do you believe in a transendent spiritual quality to love, or is love just a 'chemical' reaction that can be diminished or increased by altering the chemical functioning of the brain?

 

These are questions that to me seem utterly linked to any discussion of spirituality - I hope that they make sense.

 

Ahhh.... now I can jump in with some thoughts. It's wonderful to read what you are all thinking. It'll be fun to add a bit of spice to the mixture.

 

Alice ... what you've said is fascinating and much along the lines of research into classic mystical experiences.

 

Scientists have been studying monks from many different traditions. Wiring them up during meditation to study what is happening in the brain. Comparing brain activity between experienced meditators and novice meditators. This type of thing. What they are finding is that there are in fact changes in brain activity, etc... the longer someone has been meditating. They are finding that there are concrete reasons for the mystic experience.

 

Now does this make it any less delightful, no

 

But, it does show that the experience is a natural expectation of exercising ones brain in specific ways.

 

The way I've come to look at it is something like the perception of music. Some humans can naturally perceive more depth to music than others. Some humans can perceive music, but with training and exercise they are able to perceive more depth. Then there are humans (like myself) who really have no natural ability to perceive what others can in music, but who are still able to appreciate music in their own way.

 

I think the human brain is quite capable of perceiving more depth to reality than we normally give ourselves credit for. Spirituality is the pursuit of deeper perception. There is not one "right" spiritual path - nor one "right" way to perceive the infinite reality.

 

Knowing that there is a physical/biological explanation for the perception - doesn't make the perception any less of a wonder.

 

To address the questions of “intuition” and whatnot: This is one of those things I see abused as something “mystical”. I do not accept that these “intuitions” come from some force outside ourselves – even if we define in some fashion that the force is “within us”. Intuition is really just people responding to “triggers” that the collective experiences are “picking up on”, even though they cannot rationally explain why they are getting a particular “impression”.

 

Like you, Antlerman, I feel that words like "mystical" and "intuition" are overused and abused. Humans want so much to understand things that we immediately label our experiences. Sometimes I think we work too hard to make all the puzzle pieces fit in place.

 

That is why I asked earlier if it really is necessary to reconcile rational "knowing" with spiritual "knowing"? I do have labels for myself, we all do. But... how much do we cling to the label rather than just simply accept what "IS" in our lives without trying to "fit" it into a puzzle in which some major pieces are missing?

 

On another note....

 

I do, however, find it fascinating that human beings can and do arrive at common discoveries or inventions without communication. I can rationally attribute this to collective human knowledge - that of course as humanity reaches one level of knowledge there will always be those who are pushing ahead to the next level of knowledge and who will arrive at about the same time with essentially the same "invention", "understanding" whatever. But... it is still fascinating to me.

 

It is particularly fascinating in the area of ancient human awareness. How common the mythology was between cultures that could never have communicated with each other. Books like "Oneness" which show common spiritual principles shared across culture, religion, world view and history. This fascinates me... to me it is a sign that at its core ... humanity leans towards the search for goodness and wholeness. I don't feel the need for a concrete answer... it is possible to accept the reality of something like this - to find it fascinating - without need of a concrete explanation (one way or the other).

 

About SAAs question on evolution.

 

I want to bring up evolution of humans in regards to humanity...don't you all believe it's gotten worse and not better?

 

In many ways it does appear to be getting worse, doesn't it? I try to remain optimistic though, SAA. I do believe humanity is moving towards a culture of oneness and unity. I think that is a major reason for fundamentalism and war. Those who fear pluralism react in violent ways. They know - deep in their hearts - that the world is becoming smaller. That humans can no longer go off to their own little corner of the earth and cling to their own LITTLE version of truth. And this scares the bejeebers out of them. So... the response is what we see in the world today - nationalistic attitudes, exclusivistic attitudes in regards to religion and culture. "We presuppose we are right and the rest of you are going to fry in hell .... point blank"

 

But, underneath all this violence and anger I see fear of the movement forward. And so... I guess my response would be that I believe it is getting better. Right now the growth is violent - but humanity (like most animals) has a deep desire for survival. To survive we are going to HAVE to learn to live with each other.

 

 

BTW ... SAA ... I'm glad you're feeling better

[Alice]

Wow.

 

This conversation is great.

 

Thank you all.

 

Lots to think about.

[Amanda]

Yes...here is a pretty good, small article: You Make A Difference

NBBTB, That was a very interesting article on our 'vibratory level'... and from a well established source. Your site attributes this research to Dr. David Hawkins...

 

Dr. Hawkins once had the largest psychiatric practice in New York City, in the 1960s.

 

I had no idea our vibratory levels have been that scientific for so long now!

 

BTW, it's a good thing Open Minded is doing all that meditation for us!

[Antlerman]

I was at work and me and this guy were throwing paperballs back and forth to each other. He was sitting behind and to the left of me. We had our fun and we turned around to get back to work. Well, he must have thought it would be fun to sneak a throw in on me and nail me in the back of my head. Out of nowhere, I reached up by my right ear and caught the paper ball that he threw at me.

You did pick up on it through something like hearing/sensing it coming on any one of a number of cues, such as subtle sound waves being broken rapidly from that direction. You reacted on an instinctual level, and that surprised you. It would surprise most people. I see something like that as an animal response, but we are so out of touch with this it seems unnatural, like magic when it happens.

 

Like you, Antlerman, I feel that words like "mystical" and "intuition" are overused and abused. Humans want so much to understand things that we immediately label our experiences. Sometimes I think we work too hard to make all the puzzle pieces fit in place.

 

That is why I asked earlier if it really is necessary to reconcile rational "knowing" with spiritual "knowing"? I do have labels for myself, we all do. But... how much do we cling to the label rather than just simply accept what "IS" in our lives without trying to "fit" it into a puzzle in which some major pieces are missing?

I appreciate your comment earlier about “The ONLY way the tree can comprehend the forest is to participate in the forest.” You also said, “So... for me ... it's completely OK to comprehend the infinite simply by participating in it. Our only responsibility in the process is to be honest and recognize that our participation is individual and subjective." I also recall myself having said in an earlier converstaion with you, “There is a time to analyze, and there is a time to live.”

 

I very much respect that approach still, as I did before. What my resistance you are seeing is to how certain words or concepts cause incorrect assumptions and misconceptions. I think first demystifing everything in order to be reasonably clear is key for me to “let go”. I do not want to “let go” to some misconception about a pink unicorn holding the secret keys to peace and harmony in the world. I don’t want to go spiralling off down fairytale, pop, pseudo religious, quasi-scientific, trendy fad religions.

 

I guess I’m looking to the core of what makes a human tick spiritually, and with a reasonably rational understanding, to allow experience to follow that aren't glossed up in fanciful theologies. I have no room for that in my life. Honestly, most of what you say holds my attention and garners my sincere respect. That is no small thing OM. I do owe you chocolates.

[Open_Minded]

I appreciate your comment earlier about “The ONLY way the tree can comprehend the forest is to participate in the forest.” You also said, “So... for me ... it's completely OK to comprehend the infinite simply by participating in it. Our only responsibility in the process is to be honest and recognize that our participation is individual and subjective." I also recall myself having said in an earlier converstaion with you, “There is a time to analyze, and there is a time to live.”

 

I do remember that conversation, Antlerman. It had a very strong impact on me as well as you .... a "wonder"ful impact.

 

I very much respect that approach still, as I did before. What my resistance you are seeing is to how certain words or concepts cause incorrect assumptions and misconceptions. I think first demystifing everything in order to be reasonably clear is key for me to “let go”. I do not want to “let go” to some misconception about a pink unicorn holding the secret keys to peace and harmony in the world. I don’t want to go spiralling off down fairytale, pop, pseudo religious, quasi-scientific, trendy fad religions.

 

I guess I’m looking to the core of what makes a human tick spiritually, and with a reasonably rational understanding, to allow experience to follow that aren't glossed up in fanciful theologies. I have no room for that in my life. Honestly, most of what you say holds my attention and garners my sincere respect. That is no small thing OM. I do owe you chocolates.

 

Antlerman, even before you showed me that clip when we were discussing different understandings of words like "spiritual", "mystical" etc... I could see why resistance to certain words would be an issue for all of you. In reading your testimonies and what you regularly discuss on this board educated me to a resistance to this language. Then I saw that clip.... and - well - we won't go there again.

 

I too have a resistance, but for different reasons. I saw overuse of this language in the new age movement. Sometimes I still see it. Sometimes when people find out I practice meditation they start acting like - well - I don't even know how to explain it. But, it irritates me. Meditation is a discipline - the discipline includes (but is not limited to) regularly using the mind in specific ways - exercising it so-to-speak. The results of this discipline are natural and no more "special" than the results of practicing the discipline of music for several years. (That is just an example because you are a muscian. There are other disciplines as well.) But - at any rate - my resistance to that kind of language is when I here people use it in a way that isn't appropriate.

 

So... on one level I do understand your resistance to misuse of spiritual language. But - I also know I don't have a clue. That clip really showed me how little I comprehend of the misuse of spiritual language in general - and the misuse of Christian language as well.

 

What all of you have overcome is mindboggling, to say the least. And still - in all of it - you continue on - finding your own inner path. These discussions have been so insightful for me - I've learned so much. Thank you.

[NotBlinded]

I was at work and me and this guy were throwing paperballs back and forth to each other. He was sitting behind and to the left of me. We had our fun and we turned around to get back to work. Well, he must have thought it would be fun to sneak a throw in on me and nail me in the back of my head. Out of nowhere, I reached up by my right ear and caught the paper ball that he threw at me.

You did pick up on it through something like hearing/sensing it coming on any one of a number of cues, such as subtle sound waves being broken rapidly from that direction. You reacted on an instinctual level, and that surprised you. It would surprise most people. I see something like that as an animal response, but we are so out of touch with this it seems unnatural, like magic when it happens.

You know, I think we only disagree on specifics because I too think it is something that is perfectly natural. I just don't know everything that 'natural' entails. To me...god/whatever force is perfectly natural. The forces that holds matter together are perfectly natural. But what is it? No...I'm not filling in the blanks with god, because that would cause me to stop wondering. I think it is profound the way the universe operates and the way matter can't pass through other matter simply because of an opposing static charge. This energy or whatever is the power that I refer to when I say god...we are all filled with energy aren't we?

 

Yes...here is a pretty good, small article: You Make A Difference

NBBTB, That was a very interesting article on our 'vibratory level'... and from a well established source. Your site attributes this research to Dr. David Hawkins...

 

Dr. Hawkins once had the largest psychiatric practice in New York City, in the 1960s.

 

I had no idea our vibratory levels have been that scientific for so long now!

 

BTW, it's a good thing Open Minded is doing all that meditation for us!

I have only got to listen to a little bit of Hawkins, but he is pretty interesting. Something else I just discovered today is that the heart has neurons and communicates with the brain. The electromagnetic field the heart produces can be felt from 8 feet away and is 5,000 time more powerful than the brain. It is old news, but it was fascinating for me!

 

I too have a resistance, but for different reasons. I saw overuse of this language in the new age movement. Sometimes I still see it. Sometimes when people find out I practice meditation they start acting like - well - I don't even know how to explain it. But, it irritates me. Meditation is a discipline - the discipline includes (but is not limited to) regularly using the mind in specific ways - exercising it so-to-speak. The results of this discipline are natural and no more "special" than the results of practicing the discipline of music for several years. (That is just an example because you are a muscian. There are other disciplines as well.) But - at any rate - my resistance to that kind of language is when I here people use it in a way that isn't appropriate.

I guess I should read up on this new age thingy because what I understand about it has been around for thousands of years. What is so new about it?

[Antlerman]

I think it is profound the way the universe operates and the way matter can't pass through other matter simply because of an opposing static charge. This energy or whatever is the power that I refer to when I say god...we are all filled with energy aren't we?

Actually what fascinates me is graviton particles. Why is gravity such an incredibly weak force? String theory holds that they are actually distributed across multiple branes, existing in parallel universes. They were actually building a particle accelerator over in Europe somewhere that will be large enough to possible witness a graviton particle escaping our universe. Now that's trippy stuff, IMO. Imagine we harness the graviton particle to communicate with God's Plasma Angels, right next door, sending mathematical codes using graviton particles! That's it!! First Chuch of the Holy Graviton!

I guess I should read up on this new age thingy because what I understand about it has been around for thousands of years. What is so new about it?

Most religions try to create a history to add credibility to it, just as Christianity did. New age is really modern and has no real true ancient history, just as some other very popular groups also claim but can't verify. Even one founder of a modern alternative religious movement disavows the history that she herself put forth, yet followers still claim it really happened despite that. Oh well, whatever inspires faith.

 

New Age Info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Age

 

BTW, the music I write often gets lumped into that marketing term "New Age Music", but needless to say, I shudder just a little hearing that. I don’t put crystals or spirit stones on my piano. For one thing, they’d just fall off when I really got jamming on it!

[NotBlinded]

I think it is profound the way the universe operates and the way matter can't pass through other matter simply because of an opposing static charge. This energy or whatever is the power that I refer to when I say god...we are all filled with energy aren't we?

Actually what fascinates me is graviton particles. Why is gravity such an incredibly weak force? String theory holds that they are actually distributed across multiple branes, existing in parallel universes. They were actually building a particle accelerator over in Europe somewhere that will be large enough to possible witness a graviton particle escaping our universe. Now that's trippy stuff, IMO. Imagine we harness the graviton particle to communicate with God's Plasma Angels, right next door, sending mathematical codes using graviton particles! That's it!! First Chuch of the Holy Graviton!

I guess I should read up on this new age thingy because what I understand about it has been around for thousands of years. What is so new about it?

Most religions try to create a history to add credibility to it, just as Christianity did. New age is really modern and has no real true ancient history, just as some other very popular groups also claim but can't verify. Even one founder of a modern alternative religious movement disavows the history that she herself put forth, yet followers still claim it really happened despite that. Oh well, whatever inspires faith.

 

New Age Info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Age

 

BTW, the music I write often gets lumped into that marketing term "New Age Music", but needless to say, I shudder just a little hearing that. I don’t put crystals or spirit stones on my piano. For one thing, they’d just fall off when I really got jamming on it!

HA! (to the crystals falling off)

 

 

You know, I really don't understand how it is described as new when what they believe is ancient. If the philosophy is ancient, how can one descibe it as new? Maybe it should be seen as getting back to the original concepts.

 

Now, the first church of the holy Gravitron could be seen as new age!

 

I think that with modern understandings of the way things work only reinforces what the philosophy stands for and the religion of today that stands for literal happenings are only misunderstandings of this ancient philosophy.

 

I'll list some parallels from the new age description to the ancient philosophy of the ancient Toltec Wisdom:

 

Toltec: The Toltecs teachings say that life can be a dream of heaven on earth, an expression of every possibility and opportunity. A dream filled with abundance of peace, happiness, grace and love.

 

New Age: The individual has a purpose here on earth, in the present surroundings, because there is a lesson to learn. The most important lesson is love.

 

Toltec: Knowing that there is only one force or energy in the universe (intent) gave the Toltecs the impetuous to move beyond the illusion of separation within the dream and embrace their true divinity.

 

New Age: All humanity, indeed all life, everything in the universe, is spiritually interconnected, participating in the same energy. "God" is one name for this energy.

 

Toltec: The Toltec philosophy is about taking action in your life and traveling your path with awareness.

 

New Age: We learn about ourselves through our relationships with other people by getting to see what we need to work on ourselves and what strengths we bring to the other party in order to help them in their life.

 

Oh well...I didn't even know about this New Age stuff but I find many of their beliefs to be old. Heck...I don't know!

[Antlerman]

Oh well...I didn't even know about this New Age stuff but I find many of their beliefs to be old. Heck...I don't know!

Well, one things for sure. They've got really nifty paraphernalia you can buy at any of 20,000 gift stores, and even in Walmart! Buddha in a box. Yes, that's it: the path to divine wisdom – trendy, conspicuous consumerism!

[NotBlinded]

Oh well...I didn't even know about this New Age stuff but I find many of their beliefs to be old. Heck...I don't know!

Well, one things for sure. They've got really nifty paraphernalia you can buy at any of 20,000 gift stores, and even in Walmart! Buddha in a box. Yes, that's it: the path to divine wisdom – trendy, conspicuous consumerism!

Ohhhhhh.....I see, the crystals and all that stuff. Heck, I bought those when I was younger...as I said, it's ancient!

[Amanda]

Now, the first church of the holy Gravitron could be seen as new age!

Yeah NBBTB, didn't you know that is probably how we are going to fly up into the air, to be raptured with Jesus when he comes back? It can happen after all! Yep, Antlerman of the Holy Gravitron Church is the new movement, preparing our way.

I'll list some parallels from the new age description to the ancient philosophy of the ancient Toltec Wisdom:

 

Toltec: The Toltecs teachings say that life can be a dream of heaven on earth, an expression of every possibility and opportunity. A dream filled with abundance of peace, happiness, grace and love.

 

New Age: The individual has a purpose here on earth, in the present surroundings, because there is a lesson to learn. The most important lesson is love.

 

Toltec: Knowing that there is only one force or energy in the universe (intent) gave the Toltecs the impetuous to move beyond the illusion of separation within the dream and embrace their true divinity.

 

New Age: All humanity, indeed all life, everything in the universe, is spiritually interconnected, participating in the same energy. "God" is one name for this energy.

 

Toltec: The Toltec philosophy is about taking action in your life and traveling your path with awareness.

 

New Age: We learn about ourselves through our relationships with other people by getting to see what we need to work on ourselves and what strengths we bring to the other party in order to help them in their life.

 

Oh well...I didn't even know about this New Age stuff but I find many of their beliefs to be old. Heck...I don't know!

 

Wow NBBTB... I loved that! I don't even know who the heck Toltec is, but what I'm seeing... I like him/her. That's why I like this saying...

 

I am not one who was born in the possession of knowledge; I am the one who is fond of antiquity, and earnest in seeking it there. -Confucius

[Open_Minded]

I'll list some parallels from the new age description to the ancient philosophy of the ancient Toltec Wisdom: <Snip>

 

NotBlinded... please do not take my earlier comments....

 

I too have a resistance, but for different reasons. I saw overuse of this language in the new age movement. Sometimes I still see it. Sometimes when people find out I practice meditation they start acting like - well - I don't even know how to explain it. But, it irritates me. Meditation is a discipline - the discipline includes (but is not limited to) regularly using the mind in specific ways - exercising it so-to-speak. The results of this discipline are natural and no more "special" than the results of practicing the discipline of music for several years. (That is just an example because you are a muscian. There are other disciplines as well.) But - at any rate - my resistance to that kind of language is when I here people use it in a way that isn't appropriate.

 

.... to be a run down of the entire new age movement. The new age movement is like many other movements ... a lot of it is very valid. However, like other movements, a lot of it is questionable.

 

For instance .... I am your classic WASP American, with a reserved German ancestory. Some people have tried to apply titles to me because of the work I do in teaching meditation and leading interfaith dialog. Titles that are not appropriate and "new age". Some have even applied titles that should only be applied to teachers TRAINED in Native American spirituality. That irritates me... just because they read some word or title in a book does not mean it can be tossed about without discretion.

 

I have learned much from many "new age" books. I just think - overall - it's a pretty "loose" movement with very few parameters. That can be good, but it can also lead to a lot of abuse of language and tradition.

[NotBlinded]

I'll list some parallels from the new age description to the ancient philosophy of the ancient Toltec Wisdom: <Snip>

 

NotBlinded... please do not take my earlier comments....

 

I too have a resistance, but for different reasons. I saw overuse of this language in the new age movement. Sometimes I still see it. Sometimes when people find out I practice meditation they start acting like - well - I don't even know how to explain it. But, it irritates me. Meditation is a discipline - the discipline includes (but is not limited to) regularly using the mind in specific ways - exercising it so-to-speak. The results of this discipline are natural and no more "special" than the results of practicing the discipline of music for several years. (That is just an example because you are a muscian. There are other disciplines as well.) But - at any rate - my resistance to that kind of language is when I here people use it in a way that isn't appropriate.

 

.... to be a run down of the entire new age movement. The new age movement is like many other movements ... a lot of it is very valid. However, like other movements, a lot of it is questionable.

 

For instance .... I am your classic WASP American, with a reserved German ancestory. Some people have tried to apply titles to me because of the work I do in teaching meditation and leading interfaith dialog. Titles that are not appropriate and "new age". Some have even applied titles that should only be applied to teachers TRAINED in Native American spirituality. That irritates me... just because they read some word or title in a book does not mean it can be tossed about without discretion.

 

I have learned much from many "new age" books. I just think - overall - it's a pretty "loose" movement with very few parameters. That can be good, but it can also lead to a lot of abuse of language and tradition.

 

Ohhhh...it was you was it? (just teasing!)

 

You know, I was thinking on the way home yesterday that maybe what people are finally realizing about the commonalities amongst religions is termed New Age by the people that don't understand this understanding...understand? They see them as taking and twisting verses to mean something other than has been traditionally understood. Traditional doesn't equal correct. I see it more of getting back to what it was meant to be. What the natural inclination of people lean towards...spirituality! Maybe it should be called Revived Age?? Like I said though, I haven't looked too much into it, but I agree with many aspects of what they say and can also see how they arrive at other aspects. Such as ESP and spritual healings (which are also ancient).

 

Wow...I swear I did not know I had this link in my bookmarks (I found it while looking for a link for Amanda below). I don't recall reading it, but I must have saved it for later. I guess now is later huh? Check this out: The Roots of The New Age

 

My grandfather was German...he couldn't speak English when he started school.

 

Amanda,

 

I learned about the Toltec Wisdom by listening to The Voice of Knowledge and The Four Agreements by don Miguel Ruiz. After listening to them, I visited a couple of websites to learn more. Here is one that I haven't looked through all the way yet, but it does look interesting. Toltec and don Miguel's site: Toltec Teachings

[Amanda]

NBBTB... I loved this...

Check this out: The Roots of The New Age

 

And this...

Here is one that I haven't looked through all the way yet, but it does look interesting. Toltec and don Miguel's site: Toltec Teachings

 

And everything you post!

 

Right now I stumbled onto this guy, Ernest L. Norman, that I don't know what to make of him. Too bad Saviourmachine is not familiar with this guy, I suppose he's not. He is an author, poet, and scientist and his first works were published in 1956. He was very much into the metaphysical, spiritual, and scientific. His book The Infinite Concept of Cosmic Creation he states...

 

the true mission of Jesus was one wherein He lucidly explained the Interdimensional Cosmos and eloquently denounced the Jehovan god-worship and attempted to replace this religous edifice with a true comprehension of the ever-regenerative, ever-present, creative Priciple of Infinite Intelligence which He called, "The Father Within". The nomenclature used was tailored to the mental level and in the idiom of the times.

 

This guy seems really insightful, suggesting then present theories similar to the string theory which he calls radiant energy and has diagrams that look very similar to strings and gravitons. His ideas of space and time are similar to the concepts we have today. Additionally he speaks of parallel worlds, cosmic consciousness, and quantum solar mechanics. However, he also gives credibility to the notion of homosapaien aliens, I think much like the Raeleans, channelinig, and reincarnation. He's very diverse, and very questionable. I'm trying to see if there's any meat to the message, however I don't really know why I bother. His site is here. Your sites look much more interesting!

[NotBlinded]

 

the true mission of Jesus was one wherein He lucidly explained the Interdimensional Cosmos and eloquently denounced the Jehovan god-worship and attempted to replace this religous edifice with a true comprehension of the ever-regenerative, ever-present, creative Priciple of Infinite Intelligence which He called, "The Father Within". The nomenclature used was tailored to the mental level and in the idiom of the times.

 

Thanks Amanda...I love your posts also. You have helped me a great deal!

 

That quote makes so much sense to me, but yet, I hesitate to go any further. I have read about theosophy and some others that claim that we can control reality, this is something that I can't believe right now. Some claim that we could live forever if we could access this power. I say okay, but what about animals and such. That leads me to reincarnation and afterlife kharma. It gets a little too much for me to swallow. I am not saying it is not true, but I don't like to believe in something that I can't see results of or have evidence of here. Maybe I am missing the evidence? I can see philosophical truths come to play in my own life.

 

It is said that if you can access this consciousness that is inside us, we can actually envision a parking space and one will be there for us. I tried once the day before yesterday and there actually was a parking space. But, I may have to test it a little more! The problem is is that you have to believe it first, which makes sense. But then this would mean that Jesus actually could walk on water and that blows my whole allegory!

[Amanda]

That quote makes so much sense to me, but yet, I hesitate to go any further. I have read about theosophy and some others that claim that we can control reality, this is something that I can't believe right now.

 

NBBTB, Thanks AGAIN for the insight! I didn't even know about 'theosophy'! I told you it has some things that were a bit too wierd for me, but I didn't know it was about controling reality! I thought it was just trying to figure it out! However, I did stumble across a few books of his, and since I am going out of town... I might find time to read a few sentences here and there to see what is going on here. He comes from an electronic engineering background... and I think it is obvious in his work.

 

[NotBlinded]

That quote makes so much sense to me, but yet, I hesitate to go any further. I have read about theosophy and some others that claim that we can control reality, this is something that I can't believe right now.

 

NBBTB, Thanks AGAIN for the insight! I didn't even know about 'theosophy'! I told you it has some things that were a bit too wierd for me, but I didn't know it was about controling reality! I thought it was just trying to figure it out! However, I did stumble across a few books of his, and since I am going out of town... I might find time to read a few sentences here and there to see what is going on here. He comes from an electronic engineering background... and I think it is obvious in his work.

 

No Amanda, for some reason I thought that this was what this guy was saying. I don't know why I thought that because I haven't read the site yet! I'm sorry! I think it was the 'cosmic consciousness' mention that threw my mind into what I have previously read. I will go look at the site now.

 

I did go and read some articles and I can go along with most of their ideas, except when it comes to the part about the woman, the co-founder, that was Mary Magdalene in her past life. I know there are some great works out there that are written be people that claim they are channeling people that have past, but I just can't buy that yet. It may be my understandings are not allowing me to see what they mean. Maybe they mean they are receiving information from this consciousness and this is just how they interpret it..I don't know. I can't totally say they are wrong, because I like to think that there is something after we die. It's just when it comes to being so specific is when doubts arrise in me.

 

There is a lot I like about theosophy and agree with just as this site you posted. I hope I don't sound too critical, it's just my skepticism showing. It could be true though!