The Soul Vs The Brain.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

 

Ask yourself, did you physically exist prior to the genome produced by your biological procreators, I know that I didnt'.  Then ask yourself this, if man is simply mass, then what is the different between a corpse and a living body if life itself is soley the result of matter having mass.  

 

 

 

If a TV is simply mass then what is the difference between a TV that is off and one that is playing a show?  They both weigh the same.

 

Your question ignores the fact that there is more than just hardware.

 

 

Edit:

And before you go Spirit World on us, remember the software you TV runs on is not from the Spirit World.  All known software is real.  None is imaginary/spiritual.

 

 

Is the TV connected to the electric outlet?

 

Actually I believe my question emphasizes that there is more than just hardware.

 

Justus,

 

Please substantiate your assertion that... Ex-Christians refuse to even consider the possibility that they might have misinterpreted the scriptures ...with evidence.

 

Is your interpretation that Moses cast down a rod at Pharoah's feet really didn't turn into a serpent?

 

 

Please substantiate your assertion with evidence, Justus.

 

You are the one making the assertion and so the burden of proof falls upon you.

[mymistake]

 

 

 

 

Ask yourself, did you physically exist prior to the genome produced by your biological procreators, I know that I didnt'.  Then ask yourself this, if man is simply mass, then what is the different between a corpse and a living body if life itself is soley the result of matter having mass.  

 

 

 

If a TV is simply mass then what is the difference between a TV that is off and one that is playing a show?  They both weigh the same.

 

Your question ignores the fact that there is more than just hardware.

 

 

Edit:

And before you go Spirit World on us, remember the software you TV runs on is not from the Spirit World.  All known software is real.  None is imaginary/spiritual.

 

 

Is the TV connected to the electric outlet?

 

Actually I believe my question emphasizes that there is more than just hardware. 

 

 

 

Soul and spirit are imaginary.  Electricity is real and we know exactly what it is and how it works.  You can't force religion and science together and expect it to work.

[Justus]

 

 

 

 

 

Ask yourself, did you physically exist prior to the genome produced by your biological procreators, I know that I didnt'.  Then ask yourself this, if man is simply mass, then what is the different between a corpse and a living body if life itself is soley the result of matter having mass.  

 

 

 

If a TV is simply mass then what is the difference between a TV that is off and one that is playing a show?  They both weigh the same.

 

Your question ignores the fact that there is more than just hardware.

 

 

Edit:

And before you go Spirit World on us, remember the software you TV runs on is not from the Spirit World.  All known software is real.  None is imaginary/spiritual.

 

 

Is the TV connected to the electric outlet?

 

Actually I believe my question emphasizes that there is more than just hardware.

 

Justus,

 

Please substantiate your assertion that... Ex-Christians refuse to even consider the possibility that they might have misinterpreted the scriptures ...with evidence.

 

Is your interpretation that Moses cast down a rod at Pharoah's feet really didn't turn into a serpent?

 

 

Please substantiate your assertion with evidence, Justus.

 

You are the one making the assertion and so the burden of proof falls upon you.

 

 

What, you can't answer a question?

 

But try this, as an Ex-Christian, you must have believed the scriptures were true since you claim to have been a Christian, so are you as an ex-Christian saying that you didn't misinterpret the scriptures since you now say they are untrue?  Never mind you won't answer.

[Justus]

 

 

 

 

 

Ask yourself, did you physically exist prior to the genome produced by your biological procreators, I know that I didnt'.  Then ask yourself this, if man is simply mass, then what is the different between a corpse and a living body if life itself is soley the result of matter having mass.  

 

 

 

If a TV is simply mass then what is the difference between a TV that is off and one that is playing a show?  They both weigh the same.

 

Your question ignores the fact that there is more than just hardware.

 

 

Edit:

And before you go Spirit World on us, remember the software you TV runs on is not from the Spirit World.  All known software is real.  None is imaginary/spiritual.

 

 

Is the TV connected to the electric outlet?

 

Actually I believe my question emphasizes that there is more than just hardware. 

 

 

 

Soul and spirit are imaginary.  Electricity is real and we know exactly what it is and how it works.  You can't force religion and science together and expect it to work.

 

 

What's the atomic weight of 'Electricity"? since you know exactly what it is and how it works.

 

The Bible and religion are not the same, do you even know what true religion is?

[mymistake]

 

What's the atomic weight of 'Electricity"? since you know exactly what it is and how it works.

 

Electricity has no atomic weight.  Electricity is energy, not matter.  You know, energy like falling, heat and so on? 

 

 

 

The Bible and religion are not the same, do you even know what true religion is?

 

I know what religion is.  The Bible is a subset of religious texts set.  When you put "true" in front of religion that makes me suspect that you are about to use a fallacy.

 

 

 

I will take this question too:

 

 

But try this, as an Ex-Christian, you must have believed the scriptures were true since you claim to have been a Christian, so are you as an ex-Christian saying that you didn't misinterpret the scriptures since you now say they are untrue? 

 

My answer would be "no".  Misinterpreting the (Bible) scriptures isn't an all-or-nothing proposition.

[RogueScholar]

Justus, an electric current is a flow of charged particles. This is commonly due to the flow of electrons. Therefore, I assume you want to know the mass of an electron? I assume you mean mass and not weight as mass is a fundamental property as opposed to weight which is in reference to a force. You can easily look this information up as we have measured the mass of an electron with great accuracy and precision. This information is actually covered well in a standard sequence of undergraduate physics. Typically, the second semester in a two semester sequence. You would even cover this in an algebraic, non calculus sequence.

[Mythra]

We can discard the use of the word spirit for the discussion here.  It seems to overlap the term soul anyway, and surely is more prevalent in theological discussions than science discussions. 

 

So, let's see if we can agree on some common elements that describe the modern idea of a soul.   As opposed to Plato's, Aristotle's, or Descartes' idea of the soul.  How about this:

 

The soul is believed to be immaterial or nonphysical, and is distinct from the body.

 

The soul is believed to be psychologically potent.  It gives people consciousness and the ability to make moral decisions. It is responsible for our free will and personality.

 

The soul is believed to be immortal and carry our consciousness into the afterlife.

[Mythra]

The two hypotheses examined side by side:

 

Dualistic Hypothesis:  Human beings are composed of a physical body and an immaterial, psychologically potent, and immortal soul. Body and soul are distinct entities and the soul can continue to exist independently from the body  after we die.

 

Materialistic Hypothesis:  The mind, the domain of the soul, cannot function separately from the body for the simple reason that our mental experiences are caused by physical activity in our brains. What we call mind is nothing but a description of the functioning of the brain at a certain level of abstraction. Body and mind are therefore two sides of the same coin. 

 

From the book The Soul Fallacy by Julien Musolino

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ask yourself, did you physically exist prior to the genome produced by your biological procreators, I know that I didnt'.  Then ask yourself this, if man is simply mass, then what is the different between a corpse and a living body if life itself is soley the result of matter having mass.  

 

 

 

If a TV is simply mass then what is the difference between a TV that is off and one that is playing a show?  They both weigh the same.

 

Your question ignores the fact that there is more than just hardware.

 

 

Edit:

And before you go Spirit World on us, remember the software you TV runs on is not from the Spirit World.  All known software is real.  None is imaginary/spiritual.

 

 

Is the TV connected to the electric outlet?

 

Actually I believe my question emphasizes that there is more than just hardware.

 

Justus,

 

Please substantiate your assertion that... Ex-Christians refuse to even consider the possibility that they might have misinterpreted the scriptures ...with evidence.

 

Is your interpretation that Moses cast down a rod at Pharoah's feet really didn't turn into a serpent?

 

 

Please substantiate your assertion with evidence, Justus.

 

You are the one making the assertion and so the burden of proof falls upon you.

 

 

What, you can't answer a question?

 

I can.  But there's a principle at stake here.  

In this forum, if you a make an assertion and then refuse to back it up with evidence, then we are under no obligation to accept your assertion on faith.  This is the price you pay for keeping the company of skeptics.  Not having your assertions believed.

 

But try this, as an Ex-Christian, you must have believed the scriptures were true since you claim to have been a Christian, so are you as an ex-Christian saying that you didn't misinterpret the scriptures since you now say they are untrue?  Never mind you won't answer.

 

 

That's right Justus, I won't answer - because the obligation is yours to support your assertion, not mine to answer any further questions of yours.

 

If you make an assertion about us Ex-Christians, then, unless you support that assertion with evidence, you are bearing false witness against us.

 

So, please vindicate yourself with evidence or withdraw your currently-unsupported assertion.

 

Thank you,

 

BAA.

[sdelsolray]

We can discard the use of the word spirit for the discussion here.  It seems to overlap the term soul anyway, and surely is more prevalent in theological discussions than science discussions. 

 

So, let's see if we can agree on some common elements that describe the modern idea of a soul.   As opposed to Plato's, Aristotle's, or Descartes' idea of the soul.  How about this:

 

The soul is believed to be immaterial or nonphysical, and is distinct from the body.

 

The soul is believed to be psychologically potent.  It gives people consciousness and the ability to make moral decisions. It is responsible for our free will and personality.

 

The soul is believed to be immortal and carry our consciousness into the afterlife.

 

Thanks for taking a run at defining the term "soul".  I suspect reaching a general consensus of what the term "soul" means, and doesn't mean, for purposes of this thread would be quite helpful.  Of course, defining it for purposes of discussion is one thing.  Demonstrating its existence is quite another matter.  Although, given your proposed list of properties of a "soul", demonstrating, for example, that consciousness likely comes from basic physics and chemistry within a human brain would, in turn, lead to a conclusion that a "soul" does not likely "give people consciousness".  Unfortunately, your list of properties for a "soul", if accepted for discussion purposes, would end the discussion.

[mymistake]

Can't it be disproven by talking soul out of the "human only" assumption?  For most religions it's only the humans who get life after death.  Doggie heaven might be something they tell children who have lost a puppy but it isn't found in doctrine.  Yet there is no reason why a soul would be human only.  But if soul exists for almost all living creatures that leaves Hinduism as the most accurate religion and Christians have been trained to reject that as a cult.

 

If you look at the whole animal kingdom it's obvious that the various minds are genetic.  A gorilla cannot become a doctor or a mathematician.  A lizard cannot be trained to understand sign language.  Even within our own species the quality of a mind is genetic.

[Mythra]

If it would be rejected that the soul is what gives people consciousness, what can an advocate for the soul think survives the death of the brain?  If consciousness does not continue into the afterlife, then what is considered "me'" no longer exists, and becomes an entirely different entity. 

[Mythra]

Someone who thinks that human beings must have a soul is like a person from the 1960's  listening to the music coming from an iphone.  They would be absolutely certain that the iphone was somehow receiving a radio signal from another source in order to play it.  But if the music were downloaded and stored in the device, the radio signal explanation would be completely wrong. 

[Mythra]

Christians HAVE to accept that consciousness resides in the soul and carries on in the afterlife.  Because without consciousness how will we be able to feel just how hot it is in hell? 

[sdelsolray]

Someone who thinks that human beings must have a soul is like a person from the 1960's  listening to the music coming from an iphone.  They would be absolutely certain that the iphone was somehow receiving a radio signal from another source in order to play it.  But if the music were downloaded and stored in the device, the radio signal explanation would be completely wrong. 

 

Some persons in the 1960's, if presented with an iPhone from 2015 playing music, could (and likely would) determine how the device worked.  Experiments could be performed.  Even back then data storage was used and understood to some extent, and sci-fi writers had taken it further.  I suspect a more or less correct answer would be found by some folks.  But like you said, many folks might assume the iPhone was receiving a radio signal to play to music, and they would be wrong if the iPhone was playing music stored on the device.  But if the iPhone was streaming the music over wi-fi, then they would be right because the iPhone would be receiving radio signals (albeit at a different frequency than AM or FM radio). 

[sdelsolray]

Christians HAVE to accept that consciousness resides in the soul and carries on in the afterlife.  Because without consciousness how will we be able to feel just how hot it is in hell? 

 

Yeah, it certainly seems that they do need to believe that their consciousness/personality/distinctiveness must survive death, and they use the fictional vessel of a "soul" to hold all of that.  How convenient.

[sdelsolray]

If it would be rejected that the soul is what gives people consciousness, what can an advocate for the soul think survives the death of the brain?  If consciousness does not continue into the afterlife, then what is considered "me'" no longer exists, and becomes an entirely different entity. 

 

If the relevant evidence demonstrates that consciousness is explained as an emergent property of certain forms of matter and energy (e.g., human brain), then most who advocate what you suggest will just ignore the evidence, along with the accompanying rational thinking, and choose willful ignorance and superstition.  It's their choice.  It's their problem.

[Mythra]

I've posted this elsewhere, but I think it would be especially valuable in this thread, as an answer to Cartesian Dualism and the ghost in the machine fallacy.

 

[Justus]

Electricity is energy, not matter.

According to several sources and  the scientist's definition of "electricity," any claim that says that electricity is a form of energy is wrong.   However, the following sources are unanimous in saying that Electricity is not a form of energy. Moreover they also agree that electrons and protons carry charges of "electricity," and that quantities of electricity are to be measured in units of charge rather than units of energy. To measure the quantity of electricity, scientists use the SI unit called the Coulomb.  SOURCE

 

I know what religion is.

 

Apparently you don't if you conclude the following:

When you put "true" in front of religion that makes me suspect that you are about to use a fallacy.

 

 

I will take this question too: 

My answer would be "no".  Misinterpreting the (Bible) scriptures isn't an all-or-nothing proposition.

Really? So if you interpret the scriptures that God created a male and female and named them Adam & Eve, then either the scriptures affirm your interpretation or reproves your interpretation.  

 

 

This is the price you pay for keeping the company of skeptics.  Not having your assertions believed.[/color]

That's right Justus, I won't answer - because the obligation is yours to support your assertion, not mine to answer any further questions of yours.

I didn't ask you to believe my assertion, and yes the burden of proof is upon the party making the accusation yet I presented evidence of ex-Christians misinterpretation of the Bible with the fact that as an Ex-Christian you affirmed the interpretations of scriptures made by Christianity and now claim that upon review you are now claiming they are untrue.

 

You response is fallacy, specifically an argumentum ad lapidem which is dismissing a claim as absurd without demonstrating proof for its absurdity.

 

As far as bearing false witness, all I will say is "Helllooo neighbor."

[Justus]

Sorry, double post.

[Justus]

A lizard cannot be trained to understand sign language.

 

O really?  Think a lizard could be trained to remain stationary to pose for pictures?

 

 

 

[RogueScholar]

Actually, "electricity" is a broad term that deals with a variety of phenomena associated with electric charge flowing. Again, I referenced the mass of an electron. However, this need not always be the case as atoms can also be "charged" following the loss or gain of electrons. These so called ions are the basis of the "electrical" properties of certain nerve, conductive and muscle cells. Again, I think you can reference the mass of these objects on your own.

[bornagainathiest]

 

Electricity is energy, not matter.

According to several sources and  the scientist's definition of "electricity," any claim that says that electricity is a form of energy is wrong.   However, the following sources are unanimous in saying that Electricity is not a form of energy. Moreover they also agree that electrons and protons carry charges of "electricity," and that quantities of electricity are to be measured in units of charge rather than units of energy. To measure the quantity of electricity, scientists use the SI unit called the Coulomb.  SOURCE

 

I know what religion is.

 

Apparently you don't if you conclude the following:

When you put "true" in front of religion that makes me suspect that you are about to use a fallacy.

 

 

I will take this question too: 

My answer would be "no".  Misinterpreting the (Bible) scriptures isn't an all-or-nothing proposition.

Really? So if you interpret the scriptures that God created a male and female and named them Adam & Eve, then either the scriptures affirm your interpretation or reproves your interpretation.  

 

 

This is the price you pay for keeping the company of skeptics.  Not having your assertions believed.[/color]

That's right Justus, I won't answer - because the obligation is yours to support your assertion, not mine to answer any further questions of yours.

I didn't ask you to believe my assertion, and yes the burden of proof is upon the party making the accusation yet I presented evidence of ex-Christians misinterpretation of the Bible with the fact that as an Ex-Christian you affirmed the interpretations of scriptures made by Christianity and now claim that upon review you are now claiming they are untrue.

 

Justus, the fact that we used to believe in the bible and now do not is not evidence that we now misinterpret it.   For that to be so, you would first have to present evidence that the Bible is true.  Please do so.

 

You response is fallacy, specifically an argumentum ad lapidem which is dismissing a claim as absurd without demonstrating proof for its absurdity.

 

As far as bearing false witness, all I will say is "Helllooo neighbor."

 

[mymistake]

 

A lizard cannot be trained to understand sign language.

 

O really?  Think a lizard could be trained to remain stationary to pose for pictures?

 

 

 

 

 

That is not teaching it sign language.  Sign language is a language.  Other apes have language skills that lizards do not have.  This is because the genes dictate what brain a creature will form and brain determines what a mind can do.

[Mythra]

 

 

 

Some persons in the 1960's, if presented with an iPhone from 2015 playing music, could (and likely would) determine how the device worked.  Experiments could be performed. 

And, what you are talking about here is precisely what is happening on a variety of fronts in science today.  Cognitive sciences, neuroscience, psychology and even linguistics are examining the nuts and bolts of how the brain works, how it's tied in to the concept of mind, and it's continuing it's march to further our understanding.   If you ask the vast majority of scientists involved in these fields what they think of the concept of an eternal soul that carries consciousness into the afterlife, they might not laugh, but they will smile.