An Invitation To Sub_zer0 And Any Fundamentalist To Discuss Spirituality

[Guest sub_zer0]

Again I appreciate your participation in this discussion. Obviously one cannot mean patterning specific actions based on Christ's actions since there really isn't an exhaustive list of how Christ did/would have done things, but rather within the sprit of how one would perceive how Christ might have acted. Would you agree with this?

 

True there is no exhaustive lits of Christ's actions, but there is sufficient knowledge of Him which is aquired by studying the entirety of the Bible. Through that knowledge, prayer and the Spirit of Christ one should be able to discern how to act accordingly to how Christ would in a given situation. Granted one cannot be Christ-like in all situations but we are to try and strive constantly to produce those fruits of the Spirit.

 

The one thing I want to point out, and I'm not meaning to point a finger at you here, is that in the greater bulk of my history both inside and outside of fundamentalist Christianity has been one of seeing as the rule, not the exception, attitudes in their spirits that were extremely self-righteous and condescending to others outside those within the "common faith". I could quickly provide you with many links to proclaimers of Christ’s truth who have come here, such as TX and Daniel, who demonstrate anything but what I see as listed in the "fruits of the spirit" verse you provided.

 

I am quite sincere about this. It is very disturbing to see that those who proclaim the truth of Christ the loudest, the overwhelming majority of the time, walk the furthest from it.

 

I know that Christians can become condescending if not the complete opposite of what the Spirit is to produce. But remember that is not the Spirit of a Christian, but rather the flesh that is showing. The two are constantly at spiritual war with one another inside of a persons body and it takes discernment to know which is which at times.

 

Proclaiming the truth of Christ the loudest yet not walking truely with Him is something that not only is it not walking in the Spirit, but it confuses if not grieves my own Spirit when one talks the talk but does not walk the walk.

 

Galatians 5:25"If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another. "

 

Do you see your admiration of Christ coming through reading the Bible and learning theology? Are they any other ways exactly that you gain knowledge and admiration of him, and if so what might they be?

 

Of course the more I learn about Christ, my religious theology through reading the Bible I gain admiration.

 

One way I gain admiration in a spiritual sense, is when through prayer to Christ I become stronger in Spirit and thus more confrontational about my problems or crooked paths being taken in life grieving or pushing away the Spirit.

 

I admire Christ because of the strength, the utter peace of mind and heart He, at times, allows me to have with Him when I call on Him.

 

One thing I find interesting above is your word choice: “it instills courage to proclaim Him”. For me, the ultimate test of something having a genuine, deeply significant meaning in someone’s life would be a desire to share that experience, not “courage”. Courage seems to suggest something you feel you are obligated by some rules to perform something that may feel personally uncomfortable doing otherwise.

 

That courage is from the love I have for Christ. First it is faith and love in Christ. With those beliefs and Spiritual connection with Christ as the result of those beliefs, it in turn instills courage in me to declare His name. Like I said, through my words and my actions.

 

And if my actions do not proclaim Christ or honor Him in any way, than how am I going to share that expierence with you if I have not actually gone through it? Indeed I have felt what it is like to declare and honor Christ in my actions thus showing you my expierence of Him in my life.

 

When I find something exciting and meaningful, I can’t wait to share it with people! Finding courage is totally irrelevant; unless I am trying to sell something that I don’t really, fully have a meaningful personal relationship with. I've just seen this time and time again when I was in the Church, where people felt obligated to do these things. Why do you need to tell someone to do these things? That's completely wrong.

 

Quit twisting courage into something that it is not, as in something that makes a personal relationship with Christ irrelevant. Courage is aquired through diligence and love in Christ.

 

What am I telling you to do? The fact I am here right now on this forum and have been posting on numerous others, shows you that I can't wait to share Christ!

[Open_Minded]

Subs answers to others....

 

YOOOOO ..... HOOOOO..... Sub..... I'm waiting for an answer to my previous question....

 

 

One very important manifestation of a spiritual life is honesty. Honesty with self and with others.

 

So... Here you go Sub... WITHOUT QUOTING THE BIBLE .. Reconcile the two following statements that YOU made.

 

Christian truth is not exclusive and I hope nobody claims they have "exclusive knowledge of it".

 

If you do not believe in what I am saying you are not a Christian, point blank.

[white_raven23]

What am I telling you to do? The fact I am here right now on this forum and have been posting on numerous others, shows you that I can't wait to share Christ!

 

 

Noo.......You can't wait to share a BOOK. This topic is spirituality, and as you've just proven AGAIN. You can't do it without BOOK.

[Guest sub_zer0]

What am I telling you to do? The fact I am here right now on this forum and have been posting on numerous others, shows you that I can't wait to share Christ!

 

 

Noo.......You can't wait to share a BOOK. This topic is spirituality, and as you've just proven AGAIN. You can't do it without BOOK.

 

The Bible details Jesus Christ which is what a Christian's spiritual life should be based on and around, the life and teachings of Christ.

 

So when I share the Bible, I am sharing Christ.

[pandora]

Do you think, sub_zero, that those who aren't Christian yet display the fruits of the spirit are merely deceitful? Is it Satan producing these good acts since they don't have Christ to inspire them? I am confused. To me, these fruits are universal regardless of creed, as others here have said. What is your take on this observation?

[Alice]

Quit twisting courage into something that it is not, as in something that makes a personal relationship with Christ irrelevant. Courage is aquired through diligence and love in Christ.

 

What am I telling you to do? The fact I am here right now on this forum and have been posting on numerous others, shows you that I can't wait to share Christ!

 

Sub - I'm with Antlerman on this one. I can't understand what you mean about 'courage'. This isn't me trying to twist the meaning I don't think.

 

I do remember thinking that I needed 'courage' to 'witness for Christ' - but now having stepped away from the literalist christianity belief system I see this as very strange behaviour on my part. When I fell in love with my hubby, I didn't need 'courage' to tell other people how wonderful he was! When I had my kids, I didn't need 'courage' to share with others the fact that they had transformed my life in numerous amazing wonderful ways.

 

I'd really appreciate it if you could elaborate a bit more on the place of 'courage' for you.

 

Thank you.

[Eponymic]

The Bible details Jesus Christ which is what a Christian's spiritual life should be based on and around, the life and teachings of Christ.

 

So when I share the Bible, I am sharing Christ.

 

Right. You're sharing the Bible, which is a collection of man written stories that are in most cases adapted, interpolated or stolen from other mythologies/religions and are, thanks to Paul designed in a usable format for those in power to control the masses (you) who choose not to study how this book is not God inspired, but desire for subjugation & placation inspired.

 

You may think otherwise, but that's because you're not willing to look at the facts, just the twisted opinions written by those who want your obedience, and obviously have it.

[Guest sub_zer0]

Do you think, sub_zero, that those who aren't Christian yet display the fruits of the spirit are merely deceitful? Is it Satan producing these good acts since they don't have Christ to inspire them? I am confused. To me, these fruits are universal regardless of creed, as others here have said. What is your take on this observation?

 

 

Works mean nothing without faith in Christ and faith in Christ is the type of the faith that produces those works, so likewise faith is nothing without works.

 

Indeed they are universal but are also specific to the Christian Spirit.

 

Sub - I'm with Antlerman on this one. I can't understand what you mean about 'courage'. This isn't me trying to twist the meaning I don't think.

 

I do remember thinking that I needed 'courage' to 'witness for Christ' - but now having stepped away from the literalist christianity belief system I see this as very strange behaviour on my part. When I fell in love with my hubby, I didn't need 'courage' to tell other people how wonderful he was! When I had my kids, I didn't need 'courage' to share with others the fact that they had transformed my life in numerous amazing wonderful ways.

 

I'd really appreciate it if you could elaborate a bit more on the place of 'courage' for you.

 

Thank you.

 

I just said that courage is from the love I have for Christ. First it is faith and love in Christ. With those beliefs and Spiritual connection with Christ as the result of those beliefs, it in turn instills courage in me to declare His name. Like I said, through my words and my actions.

 

This is for me and what it did for me, the love and faith in Christ gave me courage to declar His name. It is not mandatory but something I have aquired in my life through my personal relationship with Christ.

 

Now when Sub states this, he sees it as submitting to a force that is not of himself. So, I wonder, how he could know this unity by submitting to a will that belongs to a separate being? He may have these same experiences, but he equates them to the will of a being that is not of himself. That seems like an impossibility to me. His experiences are just as genuine but he just places the source inappropriately outside himself when it is a personal experience.

 

The Bible is clear on what the will of God is and what are the fruits of the Spirit of God and other such elements that one can learn and apply to their life which is in turn submitting to those qualities, characteristics of the Spirit and of the will of God.

 

One very important manifestation of a spiritual life is honesty. Honesty with self and with others.

 

So... Here you go Sub... WITHOUT QUOTING THE BIBLE .. Reconcile the two following statements that YOU made.

 

"Christian truth is not exclusive and I hope nobody claims they have "exclusive knowledge of it".

 

"If you do not believe in what I am saying you are not a Christian, point blank.

 

All I am saying is in support of the beliefs of Christianity. Anybody can read the Bible and gain the same insight, but if you don't believe in what you read about, namely Christ, if you don't understand it, which requires belief in it when speaking on the Bible, than you will always see it as exclusive knowledge.

 

But it isn't, you choose not to believe it. So when I say, "Christ is your Savior", it isn't exclusive knowledge as it is stated in the Bible, the difference is, is that you don't believe it. Your presuppositions are different than mine.

[Open_Minded]

(sub_zer0)The Spirit of a Christian should be one of "... love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. " Galatians 5:22

 

It goes on to give us examples to live by in our lives.

 

5:25"If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

 

1. Which part of "If you do not believe in what I am saying you are not a Christian, point blank" reflects ...

* Gentle?

* Love?

* Kindness?

* Self-Control?

* Not being "boastful"?

 

 

One very important manifestation of a spiritual life is honesty. Honesty with self and with others.

 

So... Here you go Sub... WITHOUT QUOTING THE BIBLE .. Reconcile the two following statements that YOU made.

"Christian truth is not exclusive and I hope nobody claims they have "exclusive knowledge of it".

 

"If you do not believe in what I am saying you are not a Christian, point blank.

 

All I am saying is in support of the beliefs of Christianity. Anybody can read the Bible and gain the same insight, but if you don't believe in what you read about, namely Christ, if you don't understand it, which requires belief in it when speaking on the Bible, than you will always see it as exclusive knowledge.

 

But it isn't, you choose not to believe it. So when I say, "Christ is your Savior", it isn't exclusive knowledge as it is stated in the Bible, the difference is, is that you don't believe it. Your presuppositions are different than mine.

 

OK.. Sub... (Sigh .... sad sigh) .... here we go .....

 

When you first wrote "If you do not believe in what I am saying you are not a Christian, point blank." you were speaking about me.

 

Just so you understand .... I really don't care what you think of me. I've a long history of people telling me that I'm not good enough ... that I'm not a "true" Christian ... that I'm going to hell. I've long since stopped caring. To be specific ... I stopped caring the day a Catholic priest informed me in front of a religion class of 20+ students that my mother was going to hell because she left the Catholic church and that my siblings and I were in danger of going to hell because my mother was leading us "astray". I was between 12-13 years old then. I'm in my late 40s now. So.... you see .... I've had decades of practice in dealing with this mindset.

 

But ... the reality ... in this situation ... is that those comments...., "you are not a Christian, point blank" were meant for me.

 

I did not respond then, but I am going to do so now because this is a conversation about spirituality.

 

All I am saying is in support of the beliefs of Christianity. Anybody can read the Bible and gain the same insight, but if you don't believe in what you read about, namely Christ, if you don't understand it, which requires belief in it when speaking on the Bible, than you will always see it as exclusive knowledge.

 

But it isn't, you choose not to believe it. So when I say, "Christ is your Savior", it isn't exclusive knowledge as it is stated in the Bible, the difference is, is that you don't believe it. Your presuppositions are different than mine

 

What exactly do you know about me, or my spirituality, that gives you legitimate authority to tell me I am not a Christian?

 

Have you once asked me what Christ means to me?

Have you ever once asked me how I interpret the Bible - or why I interpret the Bible as I do?

 

(BTW: Sub .... don't ask ... really. I don't trust you enough to tell you. The ex-christians on this board have enough objectivity, gentleness, kindness, patience, self-control, love ... etc.. to earn my trust in this regard. YOU have not shown this to me in any way. So... don't ask.)

 

Who are you ... and where do you get the authority to...

 

* tell me I "choose not to believe it"?

* tell me what is the "right" way to "believe"?

* assume that the only "true" way to believe "Christ is your Savior" is your way?

* tell me I read the Bible but don't "understand it" or don't "believe" it?

 

Honestly (And I use this word very intentionally sub_zer0 - because honesty with self and others is a sign of spiritual maturity) .... Honestly who are YOU???? ... where do YOU get the authority to make these assumptions about me?

 

And don't ignore me sub ... ignoring me speaks volumes about your ability to be honest with yourself and others.

[Guest sub_zer0]

1. Which part of "If you do not believe in what I am saying you are not a Christian, point blank" reflects ...

* Gentle?

* Love?

* Kindness?

* Self-Control?

* Not being "boastful"?

 

Sorry if it came off that way, but the point is I am just explaining to you the beliefs of the Bible with Christ at its center.

 

But ... the reality ... in this situation ... is that those comments...., "you are not a Christian, point blank" were meant for me.

 

I did not respond then, but I am going to do so now because this is a conversation about spirituality.

 

What exactly do you know about me, or my spirituality, that gives you legitimate authority to tell me I am not a Christian?

 

Have you once asked me what Christ means to me?

Have you ever once asked me how I interpret the Bible - or why I interpret the Bible as I do?

 

Nothing... except you are on ex-christian.net and defending against what it is to be Christian, which is what I have been talking about this whole time.

No...

No...

 

Who are you ... and where do you get the authority to...

 

* tell me I "choose not to believe it"?

* tell me what is the "right" way to "believe"?

* assume that the only "true" way to believe "Christ is your Savior" is your way?

* tell me I read the Bible but don't "understand it" or don't "believe" it?

 

Honestly (And I use this word very intentionally sub_zer0 - because honesty with self and others is a sign of spiritual maturity) .... Honestly who are YOU???? ... where do YOU get the authority to make these assumptions about me?

 

And don't ignore me sub ... ignoring me speaks volumes about your ability to be honest with yourself and others.

 

 

Look if you do not believe that Christ is the way, the truth and the life you are NOT a Christian. What I have been saying is that Christ is the way and the truth and the life.

[Open_Minded]

First ... thank you for the partial response. You were partially honest ... and I do appreciate it. But there is more.

 

Who are you ... and where do you get the authority to...

 

* tell me I "choose not to believe it"?

* tell me what is the "right" way to "believe"?

* assume that the only "true" way to believe "Christ is your Savior" is your way?

* tell me I read the Bible but don't "understand it" or don't "believe" it?

 

Honestly (And I use this word very intentionally sub_zer0 - because honesty with self and others is a sign of spiritual maturity) .... Honestly who are YOU???? ... where do YOU get the authority to make these assumptions about me?

 

And don't ignore me sub ... ignoring me speaks volumes about your ability to be honest with yourself and others.

Look if you do not believe that Christ is the way, the truth and the life you are NOT a Christian. What I have been saying is that Christ is the way and the truth and the life.

 

1. You never answered the question....

 

Honestly who are YOU???? ... where do YOU get the authority to make these assumptions about me?

 

Look if you do not believe that Christ is the way, the truth and the life you are NOT a Christian

 

Once again ... where do you get the authority to define TRUE Christianity? Where do you get the authority to tell ME what I believe and don't believe?

 

I'm looking for honesty from within Sub_zer0 ---- don't start quoting the Bible here. We both know the Bible can be interpreted different ways by different people. So... leave the Bible out of it and answer the question from within your heart.

[Guest sub_zer0]

Once again ... where do you get the authority to define TRUE Christianity? Where do you get the authority to tell ME what I believe and don't believe?

 

I'm looking for honesty from within Sub_zer0 ---- don't start quoting the Bible here. We both know the Bible can be interpreted different ways by different people. So... leave the Bible out of it and answer the question from within your heart.

 

The authority comes from Christ and what He says, it is His life and His teachings. That is my authority. You have led me to my conclusions, perhaps you need to be more specific about your beliefs.

 

Speaking of which, do you believe Christ is the way, the truth and the life?

[Open_Minded]

Once again ... where do you get the authority to define TRUE Christianity? Where do you get the authority to tell ME what I believe and don't believe?

 

I'm looking for honesty from within Sub_zer0 ---- don't start quoting the Bible here. We both know the Bible can be interpreted different ways by different people. So... leave the Bible out of it and answer the question from within your heart.

 

The authority comes from Christ and what He says, it is His life and His teachings. That is my authority. You have led me to my conclusions, perhaps you need to be more specific about your beliefs.

 

When all else fails, ie.... speaking honestly from the heart ... run back to literal interpretation of the Bible. (Shaking head, feeling sad ... for you Sub ... not for me).

 

Speaking of which, do you believe Christ is the way, the truth and the life?

 

In order to answer that question .... I'd have to feel as though I'm in a conversation with an open minded (pun not intended), gentle, loving, kind, and genuine person. YOU have not convinced me that you have those qualities. YOUR actions towards me say quite differently.

 

The sad thing is Sub .... I'd really like to have a genuine discussion with you about Christ. But you've already made up your mind.

 

You come into this forum and do nothing but inform everyone here that you already have all the TRUE answers???? And you want me to have a discussion with you about the way I interpret my Christian faith??????

 

Sub .... truly when you've reached a point where you truly feel sorrow for the way you've acted here... and you can convince me that you understand WHY you should feel sorrow .... then let me know and we'll talk.

 

Until then .... you go on talking about your "christian spirituality" all you want. You may actually convince yourself that the way you've acted on this board is "Christian". The problem is that your actions speak louder than your words.

[Checkmate]

 

I must say that this dialogue betwixt sub_zer0 and Open_Minded is most entertaining. I do so enjoy watching Soldiers for Christ crossing swords.

 

I think I'll start taking side bets on who wins.

 

 

Nah, why bother? Nobody would be stupid enough to bet on zer0. Unarmed opponents never fare well.

[Guest sub_zer0]

In order to answer that question .... I'd have to feel as though I'm in a conversation with an open minded (pun not intended), gentle, loving, kind, and genuine person. YOU have not convinced me that you have those qualities. YOUR actions towards me say quite differently.

 

The sad thing is Sub .... I'd really like to have a genuine discussion with you about Christ. But you've already made up your mind.

 

No, you have made up your mind, that I think you are an unbeliever not worthy of my gentle, loving, kindly Spirit. I am now going to find out if you believe as a Christian or not with an easy question, one that you have yet to answer or even discuss this far.

 

Do you believe that Christ is the way, the truth and the life?

 

You come into this forum and do nothing but inform everyone here that you already have all the TRUE answers???? And you want me to have a discussion with you about the way I interpret my Christian faith??????

 

I am not saying I have true answers, although I try to base all of them off of the truth, the Bible. I am saying Christ is the ultimate truth.

 

There should be no interpretation of the Christian faith, it is straight foward.

 

"A true Christian is a person who has put his or her faith and trust in the person of Jesus Christ and fact that He died on the cross as payment for sins and rose again on the third day to obtain victory over death and to give eternal life to all who believe in Him. John 1:12 tells us: “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name.” A true Christian is indeed a child of God, a part of God’s true family, and one who has been given new life in Christ. The mark of a true Christian is love for others and obedience to God’s Word (1 John 2:4; 1 John 2:10)."

 

http://www.gotquestions.org/what-is-a-Christian.html

 

Sub .... truly when you've reached a point where you truly feel sorrow for the way you've acted here... and you can convince me that you understand WHY you should feel sorrow .... then let me know and we'll talk.

 

Until then .... you go on talking about your "christian spirituality" all you want. You may actually convince yourself that the way you've acted on this board is "Christian". The problem is that your actions speak louder than your words.

 

What actions of mine have been so bad, I have asked this numerous times without a straight answer.

[Antlerman]

Do you think, sub_zero, that those who aren't Christian yet display the fruits of the spirit are merely deceitful? Is it Satan producing these good acts since they don't have Christ to inspire them? I am confused. To me, these fruits are universal regardless of creed, as others here have said. What is your take on this observation?

 

 

Works mean nothing without faith in Christ and faith in Christ is the type of the faith that produces those works, so likewise faith is nothing without works.

 

Indeed they are universal but are also specific to the Christian Spirit.

Sub, do you honestly feel (not think) in your heart of hearts that all the acts of love and kindness done in this world towards other humans from the beginning of humankind, are meaningless if they are not Christians? Can you honestly in your heart look at all the love and selflessness, humility and grace, compassion and empathy, giving and efforts made for others without expectations of return made by humans who have lived on this earth as meaningless chaff to be brushed away into the fires of damnation because they weren’t Christians?

 

When I was in the church these sorts of way of looking at things were deeply disturbing to me, and totally inconsistent with the idea of an all loving heavenly Father. I loved God, yet these ways of looking at Him, made him seem foreign to me. I could feel God in my heart, yet these doctrines made him seem wholly uncompassionate and judgmental. I still see it that way.

 

When you say “works mean nothing without faith in Christ”, you dismiss every good in the world as “meaningless”. It most certainly is not. Can you not understand how people react when they hear that sort of utter lack of understanding of basic human love when a fundamentalist Christian tries to put everything into a neat little box? It doesn’t square with what the heart says.

 

I think what OM has been saying rings true. I hear words, but I sense no spirit of compassion or genuine humility and love. You have the truth and that is supreme over all other feelings towards other humans. I know what I’m talking about because I was caught up in the same way of narrow thinking you are. It was a huge defense against life. Once I realized that I was overstating the correctness of my views, a miracle happened: Humility. True genuine humility that opened my heart to the huge world of loving people that were everywhere.

 

Is Christianity wrong? I won’t say that in its entirety it is, but I will certainly say that the dogma I used to believe and that you currently do is. It was hurtful to my spirit, and I cannot believe it isn’t poisoning yours for you. We are real people and the love we have is not meaningless. Sincerly consider these things. You have only one life, and there is many more ways of viewing things than the one, and one only you have chosen to limit yourself to.

 

Peace

[Guest sub_zer0]

Sub, do you honestly feel (not think) in your heart of hearts that all the acts of love and kindness done in this world towards other humans from the beginning of humankind, are meaningless if they are not Christians? Can you honestly in your heart look at all the love and selflessness, humility and grace, compassion and empathy, giving and efforts made for others without expectations of return made by humans who have lived on this earth as meaningless chaff to be brushed away into the fires of damnation because they weren’t Christians?

 

No those works are not meaningless, they are meaningless to Christ because you have no faith in Him.

 

When I was in the church these sorts of way of looking at things were deeply disturbing to me, and totally inconsistent with the idea of an all loving heavenly Father. I loved God, yet these ways of looking at Him, made him seem foreign to me. I could feel God in my heart, yet these doctrines made him seem wholly uncompassionate and judgmental. I still see it that way.

 

My way of looking at it, is based on the word of God. My point is you shouldn't get recognition from God when you do a good work if you haven't, yourself recognized Him.

 

The Bible teaches just that, that if you do not have faith in Christ your works are meaningless, while faith in Christ produces good works.

 

You cannot do good works and expect to be saved by God. It doesn't work like that, He doesn't save you until you save yourself, in a way.

 

When you say “works mean nothing without faith in Christ”, you dismiss every good in the world as “meaningless”. It most certainly is not. Can you not understand how people react when they hear that sort of utter lack of understanding of basic human love when a fundamentalist Christian tries to put everything into a neat little box? It doesn’t square with what the heart says.

 

You think I dismiss those works, when I don't. They are dismissed because of the persons heart, it isn't focused on Christ. Those works by people not having faith in Christ are 100% genuine coming from them, but are nothing to Christ without faith in Him first.

 

I think what OM has been saying rings true. I hear words, but I sense no spirit of compassion or genuine humility and love. You have the truth and that is supreme over all other feelings towards other humans. I know what I’m talking about because I was caught up in the same way of narrow thinking you are. It was a huge defense against life. Once I realized that I was overstating the correctness of my views, a miracle happened: Humility. True genuine humility that opened my heart to the huge world of loving people that were everywhere.

 

No compassion or humility and love? The greates gift is from God and that is His Son, and that is what I am talking about and sharing with you. Whether you see it or not, that is the most awesome, loving and genuine gift anybody has ever offered to you on behalf of somebody else.

 

Is Christianity wrong? I won’t say that in its entirety it is, but I will certainly say that the dogma I used to believe and that you currently do is. It was hurtful to my spirit, and I cannot believe it isn’t poisoning yours for you. We are real people and the love we have is not meaningless. Sincerly consider these things. You have only one life, and there is many more ways of viewing things than the one, and one only you have chosen to limit yourself to.

 

Peace

 

I know the love people have isn't meaningless, but it is to God if you don't love Him.

[NorthenSun]

 

You think I dismiss those works, when I don't. They are dismissed because of the persons heart, it isn't focused on Christ. Those works by people not having faith in Christ are 100% genuine coming from them, but are nothing to Christ without faith in Him first.

 

 

To me, what you are saying, makes Christ appear utterly inhuman.

 

A Jewish doctor has concern for people in Africa, goes on a mission trip for a year and works with the people, ultimately improving some of their lives and possibly saving some from deadly illness. But Christ dismisses this as nothing and meaningless to him because the Jew does not believe Christ is the 'Way'? What is such an unfeeling, inhuman thing as this Christ you describe? He must never have spent any time on earth as a real human being.

[Open_Minded]

There should be no interpretation of the Christian faith, it is straight foward.

 

"A true Christian is a person who has put his or her faith and trust in the person of Jesus Christ and fact that He died on the cross as payment for sins and rose again on the third day to obtain victory over death and to give eternal life to all who believe in Him. John 1:12 tells us: “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name.” A true Christian is indeed a child of God, a part of God’s true family, and one who has been given new life in Christ. The mark of a true Christian is love for others and obedience to God’s Word (1 John 2:4; 1 John 2:10)."

 

Well thank you Sub for showering me, and everyone on this board, with your "love for others". With love like you've shown me ... and everyone else on this board .... it's little wonder that I, everyone on this board, isn't falling on our knees reciting the sinners prayer.

 

As I said, if you ever get that wake up call, and you become suddenly aware of how your "loving" actions have reflected Christ to all of us ... let me know and I'll answer your questions.......

 

 

I must say that this dialogue betwixt sub_zer0 and Open_Minded is most entertaining. I do so enjoy watching Soldiers for Christ crossing swords.

 

I think I'll start taking side bets on who wins.

 

 

Nah, why bother? Nobody would be stupid enough to bet on zer0. Unarmed opponents never fare well.

 

Thanks for your vote of confidence, Mr. Grinch. But - I'm done now. Unlike Sub I don't feel the need to "save" anyone here. If Sub wants to wallow in his self imposed hell - that is his choice. He knows where I am if he ever wakes up. (Shaking Head Now)

 

Just a side note .... I don't consider myself a "soldier for Christ". The Christ I believe in doesn't need "soldiers".

[Eponymic]

No those works are not meaningless, they are meaningless to Christ because you have no faith in Him.

 

My way of looking at it, is based on the word of God. My point is you shouldn't get recognition from God when you do a good work if you haven't, yourself recognized Him.

 

The Bible teaches just that, that if you do not have faith in Christ your works are meaningless, while faith in Christ produces good works.

 

So, your loving Christ, is only loving, when people cater to his ego. If you're a decent, loving, caring human being who cares for all humanity, you're a worthless prig- until you decide to bow down and show that you're willing to be subservient to Christ's will.

 

That's love?!?! That's dictatorship. Do my will, or I don't love you. That's what you say Christ is. Explain how that's truly loving & caring of humanity? That's an egomaniac looking for servants.

 

 

You think I dismiss those works, when I don't. They are dismissed because of the persons heart, it isn't focused on Christ. Those works by people not having faith in Christ are 100% genuine coming from them, but are nothing to Christ without faith in Him first.

 

Sooo... you're saying that it's impossible for people to do truly good, benevolent acts unless they obey God? Or is this just re-iterating how Christ is a stuck up egomaniac who doesn't give a damn about anybody unless they kiss his feet.

 

No compassion or humility and love? The greates gift is from God and that is His Son, and that is what I am talking about and sharing with you. Whether you see it or not, that is the most awesome, loving and genuine gift anybody has ever offered to you on behalf of somebody else.

 

It's certainly not humble when you come into our house and tell us what we believe is BS. When we've done endless study & research to find out the truth about Christianity. There's no humility in barging into another persons house and telling them their life style is all wrong.

 

It's also not compassionate because you're being very inconsiderate when you don't truly take what we say into account. You consistently skip over valid points and pick on the things you think you can handle.

 

I know the love people have isn't meaningless, but it is to God if you don't love Him.

 

Right. So, to sum up, love, kindness, any touch of positive action & goodness are all trash unless validated by the Christian overlord who only validates your goodness if you subjugate your life, natural god given feelings & desires, and limit the free will he gave you and cater to his ego. Only after proving that you care about how great he is will you be given a free pass into heaven.

 

Yup. That's love.

[Antlerman]

The Bible teaches just that, that if you do not have faith in Christ your works are meaningless, while faith in Christ produces good works.

 

You cannot do good works and expect to be saved by God. It doesn't work like that, He doesn't save you until you save yourself, in a way.

The "works" being referred to what you are referring is to the religious crowd trying to do God's will for His approval or the approval of other pious people's. This is not the sort of works I am referring to. In fact, I am not referring to "works" at all. I am referring to a heart of love. The "works" I see in the world are the manifestations of hearts filled with Love. Selfless without any expectation of recognition. Now, are you saying that those hearts full of genuine, sincere love are completely meaningless to Jesus Christ?????

 

All that Love in the world is meaningless to your God if it doesn't have the correct theology as its cause??? When I first read your words, what came out of my mouth was "ishhh." That's really a sick, sick way of viewing a loving God. Love is meaningless to God if they haven't accepted the theology of Christ. Ishh!! That is foul and absolutely grotesque. IMO, I would think Christ would be pleased that Love existed in the world, whether or not someone had the right theology. But not to the Pharisees, I mean legalists, I mean fundamentalists.

 

You think I dismiss those works, when I don't. They are dismissed because of the person’s heart, it isn't focused on Christ. Those works by people not having faith in Christ are 100% genuine coming from them, but are nothing to Christ without faith in Him first.

Then where do they come from? Don't call them works of the flesh, because that is about self-righteousness. You cannot dismiss genuine love by calling them works of the flesh. I am telling you, without the yoke of bondage that Christian fundamentalism placed around my neck; I have more love in my heart than ever. What I do, I choose to do with no expectation of reward from a God. I am free to love because I alone choose to love. If love is meaningless to your God, and he is more concerned with correct theological beliefs, than ask yourself why that God has any value to anyone who lives?

 

I know the love people have isn't meaningless, but it is to God if you don't love Him.

Love is meaningless to God if you don't love him. Well, that sounds like one self-centered God, if you look at it that way, doesn't it??? If I genuinely love another human being, and they prefered to not be in a marriage with me, would I be happy for them no matter what, or would I selfishless condemn them because I wasn't getting what I wanted? Now wrap your mind around that one, then ask God why He can't love someone unconditionally ?

 

I think the reason I hear such a disconnect in you from human love and compassion is because your legaist theology is at the center of your world view - not Christ.

[Anakin]

No those works are not meaningless, they are meaningless to Christ because you have no faith in Him.

...

My way of looking at it, is based on the word of God. My point is you shouldn't get recognition from God when you do a good work if you haven't, yourself recognized Him.

 

The Bible teaches just that, that if you do not have faith in Christ your works are meaningless, while faith in Christ produces good works.

...

You think I dismiss those works, when I don't. They are dismissed because of the persons heart, it isn't focused on Christ. Those works by people not having faith in Christ are 100% genuine coming from them, but are nothing to Christ without faith in Him first.

...

I know the love people have isn't meaningless, but it is to God if you don't love Him.

Here is my take on this reply. I believe I may have caught a glimpse of the human Mr Zero.

Your heart tells you that those acts or "works" are not meaningless. But your brain ,that has

been trained a certain way to believe, says they are meaningless. It's kind of like saying that

you yourself don't dismiss the acts of love or "works", but your bible tells you to. Since your

bible god views it as meaningless then you will too. If this is an accurate picture, then you're

half way there man. Put down the book and trust your heart and human compassion.

Of course I could be wrong and you're just trying to make it not look so vile by saying

acts of love/"works" are both meaningful and meaningless at the same time.

[Guest sub_zer0]

So, your loving Christ, is only loving, when people cater to his ego. If you're a decent, loving, caring human being who cares for all humanity, you're a worthless prig- until you decide to bow down and show that you're willing to be subservient to Christ's will.

 

That's love?!?! That's dictatorship. Do my will, or I don't love you. That's what you say Christ is. Explain how that's truly loving & caring of humanity? That's an egomaniac looking for servants.

 

No it isn't, do my will or I don't love you. He loves all because He is there for all, just as I chose Him so can you.

 

It is not catering to anybody, I willfully choose to submit to Christ.

 

Sooo... you're saying that it's impossible for people to do truly good, benevolent acts unless they obey God? Or is this just re-iterating how Christ is a stuck up egomaniac who doesn't give a damn about anybody unless they kiss his feet.

 

No not at all. If it is a good act, it is a good act. But it only gets recognized by Christ if you recognize Christ. Everybody who has accepted Christ has done so willingly and by choice.

 

It's certainly not humble when you come into our house and tell us what we believe is BS. When we've done endless study & research to find out the truth about Christianity. There's no humility in barging into another persons house and telling them their life style is all wrong.

 

It's also not compassionate because you're being very inconsiderate when you don't truly take what we say into account. You consistently skip over valid points and pick on the things you think you can handle.

 

I am not saying what you believe is B.S., I am saying that Christ is the truth and helping you understand the Bible in that light.

 

I am one person, so sorry if I cannot get to everybody's post, give me a break.

 

Right. So, to sum up, love, kindness, any touch of positive action & goodness are all trash unless validated by the Christian overlord who only validates your goodness if you subjugate your life, natural god given feelings & desires, and limit the free will he gave you and cater to his ego. Only after proving that you care about how great he is will you be given a free pass into heaven.

 

Yup. That's love.

 

Let's try it again. To sum it up... Good works done by man are very good and should be thought of in that way by a fellow man.

 

But the Christian's walk (actions and words) is different. Not only is it recognized by man but by Christ through our actions which honors the Spirit of God, it honors our spirituality in God. We are shown favor in that way because of our wilfull choice to believe in Him and submit to the Spirit, thus producing good "fruits".

[Guest sub_zer0]

The "works" being referred to what you are referring is to the religious crowd trying to do God's will for His approval or the approval of other pious people's. This is not the sort of works I am referring to. In fact, I am not referring to "works" at all. I am referring to a heart of love. The "works" I see in the world are the manifestations of hearts filled with Love. Selfless without any expectation of recognition. Now, are you saying that those hearts full of genuine, sincere love are completely meaningless to Jesus Christ?????

 

I am not referring to those type of works at all either, but rather one who has a heart of love for Christ.

 

All that Love in the world is meaningless to your God if it doesn't have the correct theology as its cause??? When I first read your words, what came out of my mouth was "ishhh." That's really a sick, sick way of viewing a loving God. Love is meaningless to God if they haven't accepted the theology of Christ. Ishh!! That is foul and absolutely grotesque. IMO, I would think Christ would be pleased that Love existed in the world, whether or not someone had the right theology. But not to the Pharisees, I mean legalists, I mean fundamentalists.

 

Love is of course VERY good in the world, and I have said nothing in regards to it not being good, nor a persons works based on that.

 

It seems that love in your heart manifested itself into something that I do not see how Christ could permit, which is the lack of love for Him.

 

Then where do they come from? Don't call them works of the flesh, because that is about self-righteousness. You cannot dismiss genuine love by calling them works of the flesh. I am telling you, without the yoke of bondage that Christian fundamentalism placed around my neck; I have more love in my heart than ever. What I do, I choose to do with no expectation of reward from a God. I am free to love because I alone choose to love. If love is meaningless to your God, and he is more concerned with correct theological beliefs, than ask yourself why that God has any value to anyone who lives?

 

Love in this world is not meaningless to God, in fact God is love.

 

1 John 4: 16We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

 

Now if God is love, then what is love?

 

1 Corinthians 13:4-8:

4Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away

 

Love is meaningless to God if you don't love him. Well, that sounds like one self-centered God, if you look at it that way, doesn't it??? If I genuinely love another human being, and they prefered to not be in a marriage with me, would I be happy for them no matter what, or would I selfishless condemn them because I wasn't getting what I wanted? Now wrap your mind around that one, then ask God why He can't love someone unconditionally ?

 

I think the reason I hear such a disconnect in you from human love and compassion is because your legaist theology is at the center of your world view - not Christ.

 

God doesn't selfishly condemn anybody, you choose not to accept Him thus condemning yourself.

 

What is so bad about Gods conditions regarding our love reaching Him?

[Alice]

Love in this world is not meaningless to God, in fact God is love.

 

1 John 4: 16We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

 

Now if God is love, then what is love?

 

1 Corinthians 13:4-8:

4Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away

 

God doesn't selfishly condemn anybody, you choose not to accept Him thus condemning yourself.

 

What is so bad about Gods conditions regarding our love reaching Him?

 

I guess the answer to your question 'what is so bad about God's conditions regarding Love' - is that the very act of placing 'conditions' on love turns it sour! It goes against the description of love you have quoted. The conditional love of god - as described by fundamentalist christianity goes against ALL the qualities of love in the 1 Corinthians verses you've highlighted.

 

I find it interesting that this conditional kind of love has been a feature of the relationships I have had with fundamentalist christians ... my Father's 'love' for me was often manifested in control and conditions ... my marriage was infested with efforts to control (coming from me as well as my hubs and endorsed by fundamentalist teaching on marriage) I can't begin to describe the wonderful feeling of really being freed up to love people in the manner described in corinthians - rather than imitating the 'example' of the fundamentalist version of God's selfish and conditional 'love'.

 

Sub - can't you see that hell and relationships that are conditional on 'obedience' go against the description of love you have quoted?

 

*I hope this doesn't sound like a quibble about verses - not meant to be*