An Invitation To Sub_zer0 And Any Fundamentalist To Discuss Spirituality

[Ziggy]

The Bible teaches just that, that if you do not have faith in Christ your works are meaningless, while faith in Christ produces good works.

 

Sub this is it ... this is the problem. Your faith is the ONLY Thing that matters. Fruits of the spirit, Love as described in Corinthians, humility... they mean nothing because faith is ALL

 

What is the point of doing anything good? Nothing whatso ever

 

You cannot talk on a human level with any sort of compassion because of this mind set. I agree with Antlers.. As a Christian you have to get the theology, the belief, the faith ... all the wordy/mind games stuff dealt with BEFORE you can feel love. That is a HUGE mountain to get over and many never do

 

I used to think that the reason Christians and non Christians were so distant from each other was because non christians thought that christians believed in a old man in the sky and so were obviously a bit doo lally But more important is the fact that for many Christians (NOT ALL) the theological side cosumes them and they cannot relate to anyone except other Christians who think the same way

 

But you HAVE to think like this becasue you cannot love everyone freely because you see them as either Christian or not Black or white saved or damned

[Guest Shiva H. Vishnu]

I'm halfway psychic, and the half demons that I half pay half couterfeit half pesos say that you are the proverbial glass that is half full with half retarded half bullshit.

[scotter]

The Bible teaches just that,...

 

 

Sub, I believe one of the reasons why Antlerman started this thread is he likes to know and discuss with the non-Christian you.

 

What are your own opinions towards good works, charity and human goodwill? Plus other topics of the above discussed related to the dynamics of love, peace, compassion and humanity?

 

In other words, might it be possible that you share with us like, "Regarding......I personally would hold this view, because......(yes, even better if you detail it); however, as a Christian, I remain faithful to what the Bible teaches......"

 

That is good enough, I would not add adjectives or counterpoints that you remain faithful to the Bible in this thread.

 

Antlerman, and some of us, me included, would sincerely like to know the non-Christian side of you.

[NotBlinded]

I was listening to Eckhart Tolle's, A New Earth this morning on the way into work and he was speaking about the difference between sprituality and religion. I listened to this part over and over in hopes that I could do him justice by paraphrasing what he said.

 

He said that the difference lies in one identifying their beliefs (or thoughts) with the absolute truth. This process blocks the ability for one to be spiritual because being spiritual has to do with non-identification with thought (or beliefs). Since a religious person identifies what they believe to be the absolute truth then when other people don't agree with them, the others are wrong. And the reason they defend their understanding of the truth is because they are unconsciously defending what they believe is their identity.

 

I didn't do that justice and I knew I wouldn't, but what I find him saying is that the only way to be spiritual is to not identify who one is to what they believe (the mind/thoughts). I think that even religious persons can have spiritual moments when their minds are quite but as soon as they do, their mind kicks back in and attributes the moment to their belief system. But, I also think that the more rigid their belief system is and the more they identify with it, the fewer spiritual moments they will have.

 

This also explains why anyone, anywhere can experience spiritual happenings. It doesn't matter what they believe, actually it would occur more frequently for those that didn't hold fast to a belief system because they are less apt to identify themselves with what they believe.

 

Somehow...it was more profound when Tolle said it!

[NorthenSun]

The Bible teaches just that, that if you do not have faith in Christ your works are meaningless, while faith in Christ produces good works.

 

Sub this is it ... this is the problem. Your faith is the ONLY Thing that matters. Fruits of the spirit, Love as described in Corinthians, humility... they mean nothing because faith is ALL

 

What is the point of doing anything good? Nothing whatso ever

 

You cannot talk on a human level with any sort of compassion because of this mind set. I agree with Antlers.. As a Christian you have to get the theology, the belief, the faith ... all the wordy/mind games stuff dealt with BEFORE you can feel love. That is a HUGE mountain to get over and many never do

 

 

Robert, You are right. Sub_zero just doesn't get it. He has yet to know Christ. We can continue to discuss this topic with him but he has a big log in his eye which prohibits his understanding.

 

I guess if you want to stay in the church, as you have discussed in other threads, you must resign yourself to trying to remove logs (uncritical faith) from peoples eyes, because there seems to be a vast forest out there in fundy land.

 

 

Perhaps there is an alternative to Sunday mornings in church that actually demonstrates Christs love rather than just talking about it. I am looking for something better to do with my free Sunday mornings than reading the paper and drinking coffee.

[NotBlinded]

My way of looking at it, is based on the word of God. My point is you shouldn't get recognition from God when you do a good work if you haven't, yourself recognized Him.

So, it's recognition you seek. You are a true philanthropist aren't you sub? Don't you think god would be more pleased with the ones doing the work without any desire for recognition?

 

You should be a poster child for Eckhart Tolle's explanation of the difference between spirituality and religion. Of course, your photo would be on the religion side.

[Antlerman]

He said that the difference lies in one identifying their beliefs (or thoughts) with the absolute truth. This process blocks the ability for one to be spiritual because being spiritual has to do with non-identification with thought (or beliefs). Since a religious person identifies what they believe to be the absolute truth then when other people don't agree with them, the others are wrong. And the reason they defend their understanding of the truth is because they are unconsciously defending what they believe is their identity.

 

I didn't do that justice and I knew I wouldn't, but what I find him saying is that the only way to be spiritual is to not identify who one is to what they believe (the mind/thoughts). I think that even religious persons can have spiritual moments when their minds are quite but as soon as they do, their mind kicks back in and attributes the moment to their belief system. But, I also think that the more rigid their belief system is and the more they identify with it, the fewer spiritual moments they will have.

That was well put and says a lot about why these things are so evident. It squares with my experience putting God inside of theological box, and how I have said multiple times in this forum how my spiritual experiences were actually severely hindered by this. It also explains well why so far every fundamentalist seems to have this concrete barrier between them and the world around them. I hear mental acknowledgements of love in the word, but my heart hears a disconnect, a cold stone between them and life. They can see it, but only through the mind, not the heart. I feel very badly for them, because I experienced exactly that and it was completely unnecessary, and harmful to my being free to truely experience Love.

 

Thanks for these thoughts. I will post more later...

[white_raven23]

Subby, you remind me a little of Spock's brother in your unquestioning faith.

 

The rest of us are simply asking...."Why does god need a starship?"

[NotBlinded]

He said that the difference lies in one identifying their beliefs (or thoughts) with the absolute truth. This process blocks the ability for one to be spiritual because being spiritual has to do with non-identification with thought (or beliefs). Since a religious person identifies what they believe to be the absolute truth then when other people don't agree with them, the others are wrong. And the reason they defend their understanding of the truth is because they are unconsciously defending what they believe is their identity.

 

I didn't do that justice and I knew I wouldn't, but what I find him saying is that the only way to be spiritual is to not identify who one is to what they believe (the mind/thoughts). I think that even religious persons can have spiritual moments when their minds are quite but as soon as they do, their mind kicks back in and attributes the moment to their belief system. But, I also think that the more rigid their belief system is and the more they identify with it, the fewer spiritual moments they will have.

That was well put and says a lot about why these things are so evident. It squares with my experience putting God inside of theological box, and how I have said multiple times in this forum how my spiritual experiences were actually severely hindered by this. It also explains well why so far every fundamentalist seems to have this concrete barrier between them and the world around them. I hear mental acknowledgements of love in the word, but my heart hears a disconnect, a cold stone between them and life. They can see it, but only through the mind, not the heart. I feel very badly for them, because I experienced exactly that and it was completely unnecessary, and harmful to my being free to truely experience Love.

 

Thanks for these thoughts. I will post more later...

Thank you Antlerman. I posted that before I read anything else so it would be fresh in my mind, then when I did read, I noticed you addressed what Tolle was getting to perfectly. Maybe if I repeat what you said again in this post, Sub will put it together. That is all we can hope for. I too want so much for people like him to understand this, but the only way is for them to understand it themselves. We can only point the way.

 

Please sub, listen with your heart. This can also be said this way, "For those that have ears, let them hear." Or, listen not with your ears, but with the essence which makes you able to hear, with the inner being that hears what the eardrum vibrates.

 

I think what OM has been saying rings true. I hear words, but I sense no spirit of compassion or genuine humility and love. You have the truth and that is supreme over all other feelings towards other humans. I know what I’m talking about because I was caught up in the same way of narrow thinking you are. It was a huge defense against life. Once I realized that I was overstating the correctness of my views, a miracle happened: Humility. True genuine humility that opened my heart to the huge world of loving people that were everywhere.

 

Is Christianity wrong? I won’t say that in its entirety it is, but I will certainly say that the dogma I used to believe and that you currently do is. It was hurtful to my spirit, and I cannot believe it isn’t poisoning yours for you. We are real people and the love we have is not meaningless. Sincerly consider these things. You have only one life, and there is many more ways of viewing things than the one, and one only you have chosen to limit yourself to.

 

Then where do they come from? Don't call them works of the flesh, because that is about self-righteousness. You cannot dismiss genuine love by calling them works of the flesh. I am telling you, without the yoke of bondage that Christian fundamentalism placed around my neck; I have more love in my heart than ever. What I do, I choose to do with no expectation of reward from a God. I am free to love because I alone choose to love. If love is meaningless to your God, and he is more concerned with correct theological beliefs, than ask yourself why that God has any value to anyone who lives?

 

And the most amazing corellation is here:

 

I think the reason I hear such a disconnect in you from human love and compassion is because your legaist theology is at the center of your world view - not Christ.

 

Sub, please put 2 and 2 together and try to follow what is being said. Just open up a little and you may be able to understand. What you believe is killing your spirituality because you find your identity in your beliefs. It is fine to have beliefs as long as you can realize that what you believe is not true for everyone. It is not absolute. The only thing that is absolute is understanding that we all have the same essence within us and there are many paths to lead one to understanding this essence of love, joy and peace. You have taken a book that was supposed to lead you to god and turned it into god by placing who you are within what you believe. Step back and take a breath...

 

 

 

 

Wow, I cannot tell you the powerful tug I'm having now on my heart strings as if some big HUGE revelation has opened up for me. WHY it has taken this long to see it, I do not know but right now I just want to cry because I pity Sub_Zero. This utter pity I feel for him/her is for all of those stuck in the noose of any religion claiming to have the only truth. I want to cry because I was there myself and I am seeing how utterly closed minded I was as a bible literalist. The message is right there, in black and white in ALL religions timeless and eternal... is the MESSAGE OF LOVE!!! Claims on the truth are NOT eternal. It is NOT eternal that only the Jews can know God or only the Christians can know God, or only the Muslims can know God, or only the Hindus can know God, or only the Egyptians....those are EVER CHANGING...what is eternal is the message of love.

 

Love does not contradict, HATE and intolerance contradict. Take out all the contradictions from religions that go against unconditional love and there is most certainly a pure and loving message in which all humanity is able to grasp if it wants.

[NorthenSun]

The message is right there, in black and white in ALL religions timeless and eternal... is the MESSAGE OF LOVE!!!

 

Congratulations Serene

 

And even the Bible does have some beautiful passages:

 

(NASB) 1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 

I believe once a person really understands this passage there is no need to go to church any more, just begin praticing it, although perhaps easier said than done.

[Open_Minded]

The message is right there, in black and white in ALL religions timeless and eternal... is the MESSAGE OF LOVE!!! Claims on the truth are NOT eternal. It is NOT eternal that only the Jews can know God or only the Christians can know God, or only the Muslims can know God, or only the Hindus can know God, or only the Egyptians....those are EVER CHANGING...what is eternal is the message of love.

 

Love does not contradict, HATE and intolerance contradict. Take out all the contradictions from religions that go against unconditional love and there is most certainly a pure and loving message in which all humanity is able to grasp if it wants.

 

Serene you hit the nail on the head. This morning I was preparing something for our interfaith group. Part of it was a quote below from Martin Lutheran King, Jr. One Christian - whom I admire greatly. The quote is from his "Beyond Vietnam" speech:

 

A genuine revolution of values means in the final analysis that our loyalties must become ecumenical rather than sectional. Every nation must now develop an overriding loyalty to mankind as a whole in order to preserve the best in their individual societies.

 

This call for a worldwide fellowship that lifts neighborly concern beyond one’s tribe, race, class, and nation is in reality a call for an all-embracing and unconditional love for all mankind. This oft misunderstood this oft misinterpreted concept, so readily dismissed by the Nietzsches of the world as a weak and cowardly force, has now become an absolute necessity for the survival of man. When I speak of love I am not speaking of some sentimental and weak response. I’m not speaking of that force which is just emotional bosh. I am speaking of that force which all the great religions have seen as the supreme unifying principle of life. Love is somehow the key that unlocks the door which leads to ultimate reality. This Hindu-Muslim-Christian-Jewish-Buddhist belief about ultimate reality is beautifully summed up in the first epistle of Saint John: ---- Let us love one another (Yes), for love is God. (Yes) and every one that loveth is born of God and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God, for God is love --- If we love one another, God dwelleth in us and his love is perfected in us. --- Let us hope that this spirit will become the order of the day.

 

We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. The oceans of history are made turbulent by the ever-rising tides of hate. History is cluttered with the wreckage of nations and individuals that pursued this self-defeating path of hate. As Arnold Toynbee says: --- Love is the ultimate force that makes for the saving choice of life and good against the damning choice of death and evil. therefore the first hope in our inventory must be the hope that love is going to have the last word..

 

But, since Martin Luther King Jr. did not read the Bible the way Sub does "point blank", I'm sure Dr. King is roasting in hell right along with other people I admire like Ghandi.

 

What do all the loving and compassionate acts these two men gave the world matter - they did not "accept Christ" according to Sub's standards?

[Open_Minded]

Regarding the biblical verse regarding the narrow and wide path. This isn't regarding "which" religion one belongs too although, WITH STRICT interpretation it could be taken that way, however, I now see it in a different light. To me this means it is hard to love the unlovely, hard to strive for peace when there is so much violence and hurt and pain towards the innoncent, it is hard to turn the other cheek, it is hard to not desire the world...it is truly a narrow road. The wide road to destruction is talking about HELL some place of eternal torment but rather things caused by DESTRUCTIVE behavior, hate and intolerance.

 

Alright, so how was that as my first time trying to interpret in a spiritual way what I thought as once to mean the road to eternal heaven (ONE narrow path to God, i.e. Jesus) and eternal torment.

 

YES..... YESS ... YESS ...

 

Serene you don't know how often I've wanted to start a thread exploring how literalists read Bible passages that I take great comfort in. So often on this board - I've come to realize the very same language I take comfort in has been used to hurt people - to make them feel less than wonderful, and beautiful and truly a sacred part of creation. I've not started the thread ... because I did not want to open old wounds.

 

What you just wrote ... Serene ... thank you. You don't know how much you just touched me.

[NotBlinded]

 

Do I get cookies too?

 

Seriously, I felt like I've just had an awakening, truly I do. Peace just overflowed within me, peace and happiness like I've never known before. You all are going to see a totally different person responding to people posting.

 

I had another "revelation" if you will also this morning and I want to see from my spiritual buddies, if you all interpret the same way. I haven't read this in awhile but it had been sticking in my brain over the past few days.

 

Regarding the biblical verse regarding the narrow and wide path. This isn't regarding "which" religion one belongs too although, WITH STRICT interpretation it could be taken that way, however, I now see it in a different light. To me this means it is hard to love the unlovely, hard to strive for peace when there is so much violence and hurt and pain towards the innoncent, it is hard to turn the other cheek, it is hard to not desire the world...it is truly a narrow road. The wide road to destruction is talking about HELL some place of eternal torment but rather things caused by DESTRUCTIVE behavior, hate and intolerance.

 

Alright, so how was that as my first time trying to interpret in a spiritual way what I thought as once to mean the road to eternal heaven (ONE narrow path to God, i.e. Jesus) and eternal torment.

 

What do all the loving and compassionate acts these two men gave the world matter - they did not "accept Christ" according to Sub's standards?

 

Thankfully, some of us are starting to see things in the same way.

 

BTW...hmmm, you wrote that while I was responding to NBBTL and I'm feeling so good and awesome and uplifted, if I were a Chrsitian and all these (coincidences of spiritual revelation were happening...lol) I might say "It must be God, showing me that I am seeing things the right way!"

Oh my god SA! I agree that when it happens, it happens with such a force that you will never go back to seeing things as you did before. The world opens up and a light shines with such intensity that one wonders how they remained in the dark for so long!

 

It is you that have allowed yourself to see things the way they are meant to be seen...through the eyes of the unconditioned essence of love, joy and peace. I like to call it 'god' because I no longer understand this 'god' as a being that is outside of us, but at the core of who we are. Some may not wish to call it god, but for me, it brings me an understanding of unity.

 

If you were to say, It must be Jesus Christ that is allowing me to see things this way, then the experience you are having would be lessened to a belief system.

 

And you deserve the biggest cookie ever...heck...have three with some milk and an apple!

[Open_Minded]

BTW...hmmm, you wrote that while I was responding to NBBTL and I'm feeling so good and awesome and uplifted, if I were a Chrsitian and all these (coincidences of spiritual revelation were happening...lol) I might say "It must be God, showing me that I am seeing things the right way!"

 

Serendipity is a wonderous thing, isn't it. (OOOOHHHH ..... OHHHHH .... OHHHH Serendipity and Serene .... what a wonderful coincidence. Really I just wrote the word without thinking and then realized the connection with your name. )

 

From Wikipedia:

 

Serendipity is finding something unexpected and useful while searching for something else entirely. For instance, the discovery of the antibacterial properties of penicillin by Alexander Fleming is said to have been serendipitous, because he was merely cleaning up his laboratory when he discovered that the Penicillium mould had contaminated one of his old experiments.

 

But, you know what - instead of thanking god for "showing" you that you are "seeing things the right way" I think we should all give a big thank you to Sub. After all it happened in this thread as we were trying to work through his approach to spirituality.

 

So.. thank you Sub ... your words of "wisdom" gave us a beautiful serendipitous moment, we are all grateful for this thread and this moment. And we know it wouldn't have happened without you.

 

[Ziggy]

Hey you people... some amazing updates here. wow... I have nothing to add except that it looks like there IS a tangible common spiritual nature that can be shared .. Liberation! Vive La Resistance!

 

I have said i was hanging in at church because I think the church should be aware of the people who feel this but my thoughts have been vague on what it actually means Its becoming clearer and clearer... Thanks to all who positively post here - in this thread and numerous others.

[NotBlinded]

BTW...hmmm, you wrote that while I was responding to NBBTL and I'm feeling so good and awesome and uplifted, if I were a Chrsitian and all these (coincidences of spiritual revelation were happening...lol) I might say "It must be God, showing me that I am seeing things the right way!"

 

Serendipity is a wonderous thing, isn't it. (OOOOHHHH ..... OHHHHH .... OHHHH Serendipity and Serene .... what a wonderful coincidence. Really I just wrote the word without thinking and then realized the connection with your name. )

That is a coincidence! Cool!

 

Hey you people... some amazing updates here. wow... I have nothing to add except that it looks like there IS a tangible common spiritual nature that can be shared .. Liberation! Vive La Resistance!

 

I have said i was hanging in at church because I think the church should be aware of the people who feel this but my thoughts have been vague on what it actually means Its becoming clearer and clearer... Thanks to all who positively post here - in this thread and numerous others.

This is just making my day. I think people here at work are beginning to think I'm crazy because I just keep giving them a huge smile! They do smile back though...it's very contagious.

[Antlerman]

Wow, I turned my back for a few minutes, only to return to have my eyes fill with tears! This is wonderful. There is a huge world of good that is out there once we break the yoke of legalistic religion off our backs. Not just leaving it, but finally understanding it for what it does and allowing ourselves to be free to experience that love that is in the world, like the basking rays of the sun shining on the whole of creation.

 

It seems that love in your heart manifested itself into something that I do not see how Christ could permit, which is the lack of love for Him.

I'm only going to respond at this moment to this one comment to make a connected point. Sub, I sincerely forgive you for this comment about the condition of my heart. You misspeak terribly about me.

 

So you understand I do not have a lack of love for Christ. "Christ", both in your world, and in mine, is a symbol of love, grace, humility, meekness, etc. If Christ as a symbol represents all the ideals of man that encourage and elevate attitudes and actions of love and compassion, then yes I very much love and embrace "Christ," or "God," or "Love," or "Wisdom," or "Peace," or (insert divine symbol here).

 

What you see as a lack of love, is my complete, well earned disrespect for narrow-minded, dogmatic, religious boxes that people try to stuff God into. 1. It is not possible to do this and no two people on earth can agree what Box-God exactly is or requires, and 2. That doing this causes people do be disconnected from the limitless "God" outside, consequently twisting their human spirit into a distorted resemblance of a human soul. In this light of understanding gained by observation, study, and personal experience, I conclude that "true hell" exists inside legalistic religion where people's souls are chained in a damnation of their own choosing.

 

Fundamentalism is Religions worst enemy. Reference my other topic on this here: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&s...ndpost&p=130731

[Open_Minded]

Wow, I turned my back for a few minutes, only to return to have my eyes fill with tears! This is wonderful. There is a huge world of good that is out there once we break the yoke of legalistic religion off our backs. Not just leaving it, but finally understanding it for what it does and allowing ourselves to be free to experience that love that is in the world, like the basking rays of the sun shining on the whole of creation.

 

Oh what a beautiful day .... between the mundane world of work and here ... this has been a very spiritual morning. Thank you everyone, thank you indeed.

 

So you understand I do not have a lack of love for Christ. "Christ", both in your world, and in mine, is a symbol of love, grace, humility, meekness, etc. If Christ as a symbol represents all the ideals of man that encourage and elevate attitudes and actions of love and compassion, then yes I very much love and embrace "Christ," or "God," or "Love," or "Wisdom," or "Peace," or (insert divine symbol here).

 

Antlerman .... YES

 

1 John 4:16 ....God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them.

 

Christ is Love made manifest - the WORD made FLESH.

 

Love manifested in and through all of us and all of creation. (Happy Sigh)

 

YES... yes .... yes...

 

What a wonderful, beautiful day. All of this coming together in this way.

 

And, Sub I meant what I said earlier. Thank you. Thank you for being the Yin to our Yang ... what wonderful revelations come when different perspectives are brought into play.

 

Fundamentalism is Religions worst enemy. Reference my other topic on this here: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&s...ndpost&p=130731

 

I agree with you completely, Antlerman.

[Antlerman]

P.S. I should add a little qualifier here, not that I want to diminish the meaning. I embrace what the symbol stands for. I don't worship the symbol itself. That doesn't work for me, but what it represents does. (It means that I can't use religious symbols as a part of my experience of "divine" ideals. There too much baggage still associated with it, the baggage that the mindset of the fundi heaped on it)

[NotBlinded]

P.S. I should add a little qualifier here, not that I want to diminish the meaning. I embrace what the symbol stands for. I don't worship the symbol itself. That doesn't work for me, but what it represents does. (It means that I can't use religious symbols as a part of my experience of "divine" ideals. There too much baggage still associated with it, the baggage that the mindset of the fundi heaped on it)

That indeed is the whole point of symbols. No one mistakes the finger pointing to the moon for the moon itself!

 

Well, some fundies do.......

[Eponymic]

I don't really feel the need to do a full response as everyone else has covered the whole concept of Conditional vs unconditional love that I was harping on originally.

 

Well done all!

[Antlerman]

P.P.S. Everyone who has contributed to this thread has had incredible insights and feedback to offer to this subject. It's been a very meaningful conversation. Thank you everyone.

[Open_Minded]

P.S. I should add a little qualifier here, not that I want to diminish the meaning. I embrace what the symbol stands for. I don't worship the symbol itself. That doesn't work for me, but what it represents does. (It means that I can't use religious symbols as a part of my experience of "divine" ideals. There too much baggage still associated with it, the baggage that the mindset of the fundi heaped on it)

 

Well said, Antlerman.

 

 

It is precisely this problem of "the baggage that the mindset of the fundi heaped on it (the symbol)" that I wrote the following to Serene earlier:

 

Serene you don't know how often I've wanted to start a thread exploring how literalists read Bible passages that I take great comfort in. So often on this board - I've come to realize the very same language I take comfort in has been used to hurt people - to make them feel less than wonderful, and beautiful and truly a sacred part of creation. I've not started the thread ... because I did not want to open old wounds.

 

As NotBlinded said - no one should mistake the finger pointing at the moon for the moon itself.

 

Such a wonderful morning - this will stay with me all day now. Thanks everyone.

 

Happy ... Happy day

[thunderbolt]

P.S. I should add a little qualifier here, not that I want to diminish the meaning. I embrace what the symbol stands for. I don't worship the symbol itself. That doesn't work for me, but what it represents does. (It means that I can't use religious symbols as a part of my experience of "divine" ideals. There too much baggage still associated with it, the baggage that the mindset of the fundi heaped on it)

True, and I agree with your assessment.

 

I have a problem with the word "spiritual" which by definition means something "supernatural" - admittedly my perception of it. I prefer the word aesthetic, above the meaningless concepts of the word "spiritual" brings with it.

 

It’s a word that holds far more meaning and value, and something I can actually "touch" and wrap my hands around. It invokes those "divine" inspirations within me, far better than the contemporary definitions of the word "spiritual.

"

Speaking of course only for myself.

[Eponymic]

Such a wonderful morning - this will stay with me all day now. Thanks everyone.

 

Happy ... Happy day

 

Just remember, all this unconditional loving is coming from non-Christians.