An Invitation To Sub_zer0 And Any Fundamentalist To Discuss Spirituality

[Antlerman]

It is either do Gods will or your own. What is so wrong with that? I mean there would be no need for hell if we could just do God's will but He gave us free will to choose to do that. That is love.

Stop the presses. You have just described the classic abusive relationship. Just like an abusive boyfriend gives his girlfriend freedom of choice. It's her choice to stay with him and do as he says, or he will beat her to death.

 

This explains the emotional disconnect we are all seeing in fundamentalists. You are not free inside of yourself. Any survivors of an abusive relationship care to offer comments to this?

 

What's wrong with that, you ask? It is NOT love. That is what is wrong with that. It is unhealthy and destroys the human spirit. Does God symbolize and abusive parent figure to you? I truly feel for you Sub.

[Guest sub_zer0]

Am I correct in thinking that you think one can only have a relationship with God-as-Sub-understands-him through a relationship with Christ? Am I correct in thinking that you are comfortable with the idea that God-as-Sub-understands-him can be defined as 'God is love'?

 

One minute you appear to accept that Love is universal - the next that it is exclusive to a relationship with Christ. Which is it Sub?

 

One more time. Without Christ you cannot get to God.

 

Love is universal, everybody can love, but those works of love don't mean anything to Christ unless you love Him as well.

 

How do you explain the fact that without Christ - many people find Love?

 

It isn't love unless you have God.

 

 

Please explain the loving purpose of hell ... I mean what is the 'point' of a literal hell? Would you have accepted endless eternal punishment from a parent if your 'crime' was to 'not love them in the style demanded'? Would you inflict this on a child of yours? Would you even burn a truculent child for a couple of seconds? Would you even singe one even slightly with a hot poker - let alone 'cast' them into a lake of fire? Why is it one rule for God and one rule for mankind?

 

Please tell me - in your heart of hearts, does the fact that you believe God says 'those who do not submit to my will will be sent to a place of eternal torture' - does it 'feel' loving to you?

 

I'll tell you what is love. We first disobeyed God. Put Him on the backburner. We created sin thus the need for God to save us from it. He used Himself, then He used His Son, Christ once and for all, to show His love for us and to save us from it.

 

So when somebody doesn't acccept God's gift of Christ's life for you, and because of that you go to hell which is a place without God, that is not love?

 

In other words, a person chooses to go to hell because they choose not to go to heaven. There is no loving purpose of hell, its purpose is to hold and seperate all those who do not believe in God from those who do.

 

YES!!! If this God is UNWILLING to let us live happily & not be subject to his HELL once you die, then YES, he should never have GIVEN US the will to do what we want in the first place. Because either way, according to your God, we're still subject to going to hell. So how the heck can you really be free if being free to choose mean choosing a hell? I mean really!

 

So you would be fine without your will that you are using right now to not accept God?

 

So.. WHY, if god is so loving & good, would he create a being with BAD WILL? He CREATED US, right? So he created the evil within us too. Why? How is that loving, to create us with this inherit opposition? How is it loving to create us with the desire to disobey him, or simply to do deeds than are evil (according to him)? Where is the love in making a create and making them bad? That's the Good will of God?

 

No, God never created evil in us. He created us with will to either do His will or our own. It is loving to give us choice to obey Him. Everybody is created with the desire to obey Him, but are influenced by the Devil to not.

 

Right, and God's actions (in the Bible) speak even louder than his words. That's what I'm mostly talking about.

 

Do not forget about the actions of people to God as well.

 

I think I'm going to drop this because it's getting away from my main points above.

 

The fact is, within your own statements you've started contradicting yourself, thereby weakening your position.

 

You said, "God has unconditional love for all, but through that love He gives us choice to accept Him or not."

 

Then later you said, "We created the conditions by not following His will to begin with remember."

 

Suddenly you admit there are conditions. You can't have both. It's one or the other, and after admitting there are conditions, you can't just suddenly say that God's love in unconditional anymore. We know it isn't, and proven it too.

 

You were speaking of Gods conditions for love to us. I am saying He never was responsible for conditions to begin with. He was responsible in giving us choice to love Him.

 

It means nothing to you. Let me clarify, and repeat for you what I’m sure you’ve heard going on several thousand times by now: No two Christians believe the same thing about God. With that fact in mind, assigning specific meanings to the symbol of Christ is in fact irrelevant to anyone outside you. I see Christ as a created personality that symbolizes many positive things, things that are reflective of the author’s views of spiritual insights. Some of those views have meaning to me; others are reflective of the culture of the day, various other contemporary philosophies that they were trying to address through the character of Jesus, etc. You choose from those things what is meaningful to you. Episcopalians choose what is meaningful to them, Lutherans the same, Baptists the same, and… me the same.

 

You are way off. All Christians believe that the only way to God is through Christ.

 

The real pertinent question is this: Are the things that I or anyone else takes Christ to symbolize, positive, healthy things whose fruits bear life and love? If not, then I would see this as not valuing Christ as a positive symbol.

 

The reason for this thread is not to dispute or challenge how you believe about God or Christ, or any other thing from the Bible. It’s about the fruits that come as a result of those beliefs. Are they healthy? Does it make you more connected with life and all people around you, or does it isolate you and keep you from embracing the genuine love that is the world everywhere around you? When I hear you seeming to gloss over the magnitude of the Love that exists in world, by saying “It’s meaningful to me, but Christ doesn’t value it because it’s not about him” (in so many words), I’m really not hearing a heart that experiences love in this world. That is why I find these sorts of dogmatic beliefs so disheartening. I hate to see any human disconnected from the world because of these inflexible views on something so unspecific, as is borne out by the 30,000 different Christian sects surrounding it. That phenomenon fits within my framework of understanding easily, whereas it betrays the assumed perfection of yours.

 

The greatest love to ever come into this world is Christ. I am most definately feeling the love in this world.

 

Oh?

 

Aparantly you are really good at adding things to the bible to justify it, despite there existing NO verses to support your assumption.

 

Tell me, how do you go from having TWO people PERIOD to having enough people to sustain a population.....WITHOUT incest occurring?

 

Who did Cain and Abel marry? Had to be their own sisters.

 

THAT'S called incest!

 

Don't go inventing more people that aren't verified by the bible either.

 

And God DOES advocate it by NOT punishing it.....something he's clearly NOT hesitent about doing ACCORDING to YOUR STUPID BIBLE.

 

He doesn't punish Lot's daughters for it. So God is okay with it there too.

 

You go from talking as though god cares about every little thing we do, to god just going "Eh...that's humans for ya" and not really being concerned at all.

 

Either you really need to recognize your view of one god is badly contradictory......or you believe in two seperate gods here!

 

No it isn't called incest. It is called the need to populate the earth. Genetics of man was starting to decline and wasn't bothered by sex within family.

 

Because God doesn't punish somebody right then and there, He allows it? You are forgetting that God judges all for their acts and their heart towards Him.

[Antlerman]

Edit: My wisdom was also impacted greatly by allowing myself to sit back and "listen" to what you, O-Minded, Alice, Amanda, Antlerman and NBBTL had to say and offer. I'm thankful that I stuck around and was able to learn a side that I've never known before. It's my choice to view things in this new light and not all will agree, but thats okay, it doesn't really matter.

I feel very happy for you Serene. I also very happy that anything I may have shared was meaningful for you! It's really ironic how many of those terms like born again, knowing the truth setting you free, etc, have a lot more real meaning outside the box of fundamentalist religion! We used them to promote the faith, not we use them to describe our emancipation from it!

[Guest sub_zer0]

Sub,

 

some more thoughts about love ...

 

As a christian I would often claim to love people. I believed I was commanded to love people - not just my friends and family ... but my neighbours, strangers, my enemies even ... eveyone.

 

However much I would tell myself that I 'loved' others - there was a difference between my 'claims of love' and those that I actually, genuinely loved. There is a difference between 'authentic' heartfelt love and claims of love that do not truly touch the heart or spirit.

 

I know that when I truly love someone else - this is a 'spiritual' experience.

 

Almost everything that my children do and everthing that they 'are' - produces a spiritual response in my being. Things that other people might not think are 'lovely' are beautiful to me. My older children no longer make all the life choices I would choose for them - but they have free will. Should they ever make a 'mistake' - will I announce that they deserve their punishment and add some eternal torment of my own - or because I love them will I offer to do whatever I can to allieviate their difficulties? Will I love them less and implement my special additional torment plan, if they turn down the offer of help - or will I continue to love them and accept them for who they are?

 

You are forgetting that God has something for EVERYBODY to allieviate their difficulties. That is His gift of love to us, that is Christ.

 

I truly believe that deep in the heart or spirit of the majority of people - is a universal experience and understanding of love*. Tuning in to this capacity - I think most people, when they honestly question - will see that there is a difference between authentic love and the 'love' defined by fundamentalist christianity. Sub - have you ever felt this difference?

 

* - I think there are some people for whom the capacity to understand and give or recieve love - has been significantly impaired - various causes.

 

So how is the Christian view of love:

 

"Love is patient. Love is kind. It does not envy. It does not boast. It is not proud. It is not rude. It is not self-seeking. It is not easily angered. It keeps no record of wrong doing. It does not delight in evil, but rejoices in the truth. It always protects, trusts, hopes, perseveres."

Corinthians 13

 

Any different than what love should be?

[Curtdude]

 

One more time. Without Christ you cannot get to God.

 

Love is universal, everybody can love, but those works of love don't mean anything to Christ unless you love Him as well.....

 

 

Since the subject is to "discuss how their Biblical interpretations and general doctrinal beliefs have affected their [Fundamentalists] lives on a spiritual level, and namely how this is being manifested in their actions and attitudes," and then there has been lengthy discussion about spirituality in general (and some epiphanies as well - bravo and brava), I have noticed one thing about Mr. Sub's outlook that differs from many on this board: he sees spirituality as coming from elsewhere. Not from his own soul, but from outside of himself.

 

Any discussion about spirituality in which both sides cannot agree on this central issue of dualism will continue to just speak over each other's shoulders. Mr. Sub's core beliefs that god is from without, not from within, informs him constantly that he is the Object, not that he is the Creator of Love and all that is good in the world.

 

We apostates, and many cool christians as well, have bagged this dualism and know now that there is only one reality: that which simply "is". There is no separate "spiritual" world in the sky. No ethereal "ideal" spinning out in the heavens just waiting to be discovered. God, if he/she/it exists, is already just right here. No need to go lookin'. Seek within the Self and you'll find him/her/it.

 

Realizing that we are one with at least the planet and all the world around us IS a revelation, after so many years of seeing god as outside of ourselves, and that we are not worthy of his affection. Waking up to this reality, this sense of belonging to the real world, can be called a spiritual experience, even though I see it more now as acknowledging reality and not looking to the heavens for some sort of secret passcode to life.

 

Interesting discussion, just my 2 cents observation.

[Antlerman]

Dare i be so dramatic to say that i now feel like there is now a real chance for spiritual human unity - irrespective of religion / creed / culture? We do not have to be be just negative in pointing out all the flaws in religion .. but can offer something positive and unifying Gee - the possibilities!!

Now that's a faith I want to believe in!! It is my hope and I see it happening within my own heart.

[Guest sub_zer0]

Since the subject is to "discuss how their Biblical interpretations and general doctrinal beliefs have affected their [Fundamentalists] lives on a spiritual level, and namely how this is being manifested in their actions and attitudes," and then there has been lengthy discussion about spirituality in general (and some epiphanies as well - bravo and brava), I have noticed one thing about Mr. Sub's outlook that differs from many on this board: he sees spirituality as coming from elsewhere. Not from his own soul, but from outside of himself.

 

Any discussion about spirituality in which both sides cannot agree on this central issue of dualism will continue to just speak over each other's shoulders. Mr. Sub's core beliefs that god is from without, not from within, informs him constantly that he is the Object, not that he is the Creator of Love and all that is good in the world.

 

How wrong so far... How did I recieve my spirituality? By accepting Christ and the Holy Spirit to come within my and my heart and change me from the inside out. That way my insides will reflect my outside actions of a Christian spirit.

 

We apostates, and many cool christians as well, have bagged this dualism and know now that there is only one reality: that which simply "is". There is no separate "spiritual" world in the sky. No ethereal "ideal" spinning out in the heavens just waiting to be discovered. God, if he/she/it exists, is already just right here. No need to go lookin'. Seek within the Self and you'll find him/her/it.

 

God is there and always was. But you seek Him with a heart of Christ and you will find Him.

[Antlerman]

Love is universal, everybody can love, but those works of love don't mean anything to Christ unless you love Him as well.

It isn't love unless you have God.

Which of the above two is it. It is love, but not meaningful to God. 2. It isn't love, if you don't have God. Sub you said opposite and mutally exclusive things here. Are you that blind you don't see that??

 

The woman who loves their child. Do they love or not?

 

It means nothing to you. Let me clarify, and repeat for you what I’m sure you’ve heard going on several thousand times by now: No two Christians believe the same thing about God. With that fact in mind, assigning specific meanings to the symbol of Christ is in fact irrelevant to anyone outside you. I see Christ as a created personality that symbolizes many positive things, things that are reflective of the author’s views of spiritual insights. Some of those views have meaning to me; others are reflective of the culture of the day, various other contemporary philosophies that they were trying to address through the character of Jesus, etc. You choose from those things what is meaningful to you. Episcopalians choose what is meaningful to them, Lutherans the same, Baptists the same, and… me the same.

 

You are way off. All Christians believe that the only way to God is through Christ.

 

Ok... let me guess... your defining "All Christians" as people who believe only as you do? That is the only way why I said could possibly, in any fashion be considered "way off." OM is a Christian - point blank! She doesn't not agree with you.

 

The greatest love to ever come into this world is Christ. I am most definately feeling the love in this world.

No, I do not believe you do at all. You words and your works betray you. Sub do you truly care how we feel? You never answered my question. I am assuming you can't.

[Eponymic]

So you would be fine without your will that you are using right now to not accept God?

 

Watch the double negatives there eh. I'm not really sure what you're asking.

 

No, God never created evil in us. He created us with will to either do His will or our own. It is loving to give us choice to obey Him. Everybody is created with the desire to obey Him, but are influenced by the Devil to not.

 

If God created us, he created EVERYTHING WITHIN US. You can't be responsible for only PART of the creation. If he created us (as the Bible says he did), he created us down to the last bit. Therefore he's responsible for giving us those desires to follow our own will. The Devil isn't responsible for that, if the Devil were real, all he'd be responsible is giving us the suggestion to follow what is already in our hearts & minds, which was created by God, not the Devil.

 

(Which I don't believe any of that for myself anyhow. But I'm proving a point here.)

 

Right, and God's actions (in the Bible) speak even louder than his words. That's what I'm mostly talking about.

 

Do not forget about the actions of people to God as well.

 

Irrelevant. We're talking about God's behavior, not the actions of people towards God.

 

You were speaking of Gods conditions for love to us. I am saying He never was responsible for conditions to begin with. He was responsible in giving us choice to love Him.

 

As I stated above, by creating us, he is responsible for all of it because he's the one who gave us everything in the first place (if he is real).

[Guest sub_zer0]

Love is universal, everybody can love, but those works of love don't mean anything to Christ unless you love Him as well.

It isn't love unless you have God.

Which of the above two is it. It is love, but not meaningful to God. 2. It isn't love, if you don't have God. Sub you said opposite and mutally exclusive things here. Are you that blind you don't see that??

 

The woman who loves their child. Do they love or not?

 

1. It is always love.

2. It isn't love in Gods name if you don't believe in God.

 

Ok... let me guess... your defining "All Christians" as people who believe only as you do? That is the only way why I said could possibly, in any fashion be considered "way off." OM is a Christian - point blank! She doesn't not agree with you.

 

Christians believe in Christ as their savior. He rose the third day to conquer death, etc, etc. I told you and pointed you to a site that answers the question of what a Christian is.

 

Anybody who doesn't live by those beliefs, is not a Christian.

 

No, I do not believe you do at all. You words and your works betray you. Sub do you truly care how we feel? You never answered my question. I am assuming you can't.

 

I care how you feel towards Christ, and I am trying to help share the knowlege of Him is all.

 

If God created us, he created EVERYTHING WITHIN US. You can't be responsible for only PART of the creation. If he created us (as the Bible says he did), he created us down to the last bit. Therefore he's responsible for giving us those desires to follow our own will. The Devil isn't responsible for that, if the Devil were real, all he'd be responsible is giving us the suggestion to follow what is already in our hearts & minds, which was created by God, not the Devil.

 

No God did not create desire in us to not do His will. He gave us choice. Desire to do our will over Gods is man-made and influenced by Satan.

 

Our choice to follow God is influenced by God, our choice to follow our way and not Gods is influenced by Satan.

 

The devil is responsible for influencing our decision away from God.

[Open_Minded]

Any discussion about spirituality in which both sides cannot agree on this central issue of dualism will continue to just speak over each other's shoulders. Mr. Sub's core beliefs that god is from without, not from within, informs him constantly that he is the Object, not that he is the Creator of Love and all that is good in the world.

 

We apostates, and many cool christians as well, have bagged this dualism and know now that there is only one reality: that which simply "is". There is no separate "spiritual" world in the sky. No ethereal "ideal" spinning out in the heavens just waiting to be discovered. God, if he/she/it exists, is already just right here. No need to go lookin'. Seek within the Self and you'll find him/her/it.

 

Realizing that we are one with at least the planet and all the world around us IS a revelation, after so many years of seeing god as outside of ourselves, and that we are not worthy of his affection. Waking up to this reality, this sense of belonging to the real world, can be called a spiritual experience, even though I see it more now as acknowledging reality and not looking to the heavens for some sort of secret passcode to life.

 

Interesting discussion, just my 2 cents observation.

 

And a wonderful .02 it is Curtdude

 

Oh.... I've so enjoyed watching this discussion unfold.... I'm just lurking but it's been a blast.

 

You know Curtdude ... your comments about ...

 

Realizing that we are one with at least the planet and all the world around us IS a revelation, after so many years of seeing god as outside of ourselves, and that we are not worthy of his affection.

 

I've noticed this dynamic before ... it is this dynamic that caused me to start the thread: Understanding God as Supernatural ... dangers of

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=7091

 

Antlerman has said so many times that literalism and fundamentalism are the greatest enemy of true spirituality. This too is part of what you wrote above. So .... many things are coming together in this thread. Yes.... I enjoy just lurking. You all have wonderful insights.

 

Sub ... you are young. Too young to come in here and assume you know more than those who have already walked the path you are on. I do hope you can put down the mirror your looking in and just try to process what people are saying here. There is much to be learned.

[Eponymic]

No God did not create desire in us to not do His will. He gave us choice. Desire to do our will over Gods is man-made and influenced by Satan.

 

Our choice to follow God is influenced by God, our choice to follow our way and not Gods is influenced by Satan.

 

The devil is responsible for influencing our decision away from God.

 

Wow.

 

There's nothing much I can say to that, because it's not using any grounded logic whatsoever. It's giving man responsibility for the biological structure that they were created with.

 

This is so one-dimensional its scary. The big white guy is responsible for good, the ugly black guy is responsible for evil. End of discussion.

 

Wow...

[Open_Minded]

It means nothing to you. Let me clarify, and repeat for you what I’m sure you’ve heard going on several thousand times by now: No two Christians believe the same thing about God. With that fact in mind, assigning specific meanings to the symbol of Christ is in fact irrelevant to anyone outside you. I see Christ as a created personality that symbolizes many positive things, things that are reflective of the author’s views of spiritual insights. Some of those views have meaning to me; others are reflective of the culture of the day, various other contemporary philosophies that they were trying to address through the character of Jesus, etc. You choose from those things what is meaningful to you. Episcopalians choose what is meaningful to them, Lutherans the same, Baptists the same, and… me the same.

 

You are way off. All Christians believe that the only way to God is through Christ.

 

Ok... let me guess... your defining "All Christians" as people who believe only as you do? That is the only way why I said could possibly, in any fashion be considered "way off." OM is a Christian - point blank! She doesn't not agree with you.

 

Sub ... we've been through this. Don't go there ... you need to get back to a level of discussion that does not put you in a position of speaking for "All Christians".

 

For the record ... I (and many, many other Christians) do not believe that someone who is not Christian cannot access God. I don't believe that a person even has to believe in "God". I do not believe in hell (many Christians do not believe in literal hell) so why would it be necessary to believe in "God", especially the understanding of "god" you ascribe to?

 

The idea of hell exists for the sole purpose of defending the rigid idea of god that you ascribe too. Don't you see Sub.... without your understanding of "hell" why would you need your understanding of "god"? Your "god" in the mirror is saving you from something that doesn't exist.

 

Put down the mirror Sub ... you see in the mirror dimly. Put it down ... god is not a dim reflection of yourself. God is beyond your capacity to comprehend fully - so put down the mirror and start really searching.

[Curtdude]

How wrong so far... How did I recieve my spirituality? By accepting Christ and the Holy Spirit to come within my and my heart and change me from the inside out. That way my insides will reflect my outside actions of a Christian spirit......God is there and always was. But you seek Him with a heart of Christ and you will find Him.

 

I think I just "spoke over your shoulder." hehehehe

 

Your restatement of dualism mirrors my observation: you see christ as an outside entity and you are the object being worked upon by god. Yes, according to christian dogma, the heart of the believer is changed from within, but only as a result of being the object of god's regeneration of the flesh and spirit.

 

My obervation of your point of view remains intact: you are acted upon by god, and the results are not from you, but from without (meaning from outside of the self). Without this influence from outside the self, you are just a worthless sinner deserving of hell. With this point of view, no good can come from yourself alone...all must come from god. Perhaps this is why there is a lack of spiritual feeling that we're getting from you, Mr.Sub. You can repeat back the book, but we know that the dogma leaves the self as a worthless hell-deserving soul. Not really a cheery thought. As you have stated, Christ is everything for you. At least you're consistent.

 

From my point of view, there is no need for an outside entity to do anything: all that I need comes from within me and other living people, not deities, supernatural spirts, etc. Call it secular humanism if you like, or atheistic existentialism.

 

Outside entities cannot affect my interior life because there is no proof that they exist. My sense of spirituality is from knowing that I am part of the planet and the universe and that that is enough for me. We still have not heard what your interior life is like? The closest we've gotten is a rehash of christian dogma that, believe me, we all know already. Not that I'm really expecting much. Just thought I'd throw you a bone.

 

 

My sister is a liberal christian, and she can certainly explain her moments of feeling close to god, the wind on her skin or how the ocean's roar creates a stir in her soul, that is to say, a tactile, sensual experience. But that may be asking too much on a discussion board where you are defending your faith to the apostates. Oh well.

 

And thanks for the Kind Words, OpenMinded. Mucho appreciated that I am understood.

[Antlerman]

From my point of view, there is no need for an outside entity to do anything: all that I need comes from within me and other living people, not deities, supernatural spirts, etc. Call it secular humanism if you like, or atheistic existentialism.

And how have I missed your posts elsewhere? Name change? Thank you for assessing what we have all been seeing and putting it in such clear and concise terms in your whole post. I am finding myself getting distracted by the details now, and sometimes have to force myself to pull back and assess the whole, what's really central theme of what's going on? This helps that. Thanks.

 

There is such a consistent comment from everyone of us sensing a disconnect between the fundamentalist and life itself. I feel we're all trying to give the benefit of the doubt and be fair, yet it is a consistent, repeated observation. It is not genuine love of the heart. It is a theoretical love. It's conceptual, but not a living love.

 

It's extreemly unlikely we are all being wrong about something so nagging and persistently obvious about a fellow human being. I really, genuinely feel badly for fundis now. It's ironic; the one's who need salvation the most are the one's who think everyone else needs it. Ironic and tragically sad.

[Guest sub_zer0]

Sub ... we've been through this. Don't go there ... you need to get back to a level of discussion that does not put you in a position of speaking for "All Christians".

 

I am not speaking for all Christians. I am saying to be a Christian you need to believe in the following about Christ and the Bible.

 

For the record ... I (and many, many other Christians) do not believe that someone who is not Christian cannot access God. I don't believe that a person even has to believe in "God". I do not believe in hell (many Christians do not believe in literal hell) so why would it be necessary to believe in "God", especially the understanding of "god" you ascribe to?

 

It doesn't take a Christian, per say. That is why I hate labels like that. All a Christian is, to put it in lesser terms, is somebody who has faith in Christ. If you don't got that you aren't a Christian.

 

The idea of hell exists for the sole purpose of defending the rigid idea of god that you ascribe too. Don't you see Sub.... without your understanding of "hell" why would you need your understanding of "god"? Your "god" in the mirror is saving you from something that doesn't exist.

 

Put down the mirror Sub ... you see in the mirror dimly. Put it down ... god is not a dim reflection of yourself. God is beyond your capacity to comprehend fully - so put down the mirror and start really searching.

 

There you go, speaking for me again...

 

Why should I give up because God is beyong my capacity to comprehend fully?

[Antlerman]

Love is universal, everybody can love, but those works of love don't mean anything to Christ unless you love Him as well.

It isn't love unless you have God.

Which of the above two is it. It is love, but not meaningful to God. 2. It isn't love, if you don't have God. Sub you said opposite and mutally exclusive things here. Are you that blind you don't see that??

 

The woman who loves their child. Do they love or not?

 

1. It is always love.

2. It isn't love in Gods name if you don't believe in God.

Oh, I don't know why... Ok, when isn't it always love? When a mother loves their child, is it only love if they believe in God? If not, is it real love or fake love? Just answer that one question.

 

On point two, well sure, yeah. Of course it's not love in God's name if you don't believe in God. But it is love nonetheless, so it is love for loves sake.

 

IMO, that is *real*, honest to goodness, genuine love. Not this bullshit fake, artificial, plastic, facade, pretend, intellectual but no soul, blinded to others, and lost to yourself phony love that I hear as the fruits of your beliefs. Sorry Sub, but that is the way it is - point blank.

[Guest sub_zer0]

I think I just "spoke over your shoulder." hehehehe

 

Your restatement of dualism mirrors my observation: you see christ as an outside entity and you are the object being worked upon by god. Yes, according to christian dogma, the heart of the believer is changed from within, but only as a result of being the object of god's regeneration of the flesh and spirit.

 

My obervation of your point of view remains intact: you are acted upon by god, and the results are not from you, but from without (meaning from outside of the self). Without this influence from outside the self, you are just a worthless sinner deserving of hell. With this point of view, no good can come from yourself alone...all must come from god. Perhaps this is why there is a lack of spiritual feeling that we're getting from you, Mr.Sub. You can repeat back the book, but we know that the dogma leaves the self as a worthless hell-deserving soul. Not really a cheery thought. As you have stated, Christ is everything for you. At least you're consistent.

 

OK, you are right that I had to accept something outside of myself. But the influence of that outisde force is what causes my inside to change. When my inside changes then the outward actions of my inward beliefs and morals and such, become more like that outside influence. Nothing is controlling me that I do not let control me.

 

Because I act on my acceptance of something outward, it becomes a lack of spiritual feeling?

 

The self you speak about is not worthless, if we were, why is God still trying to save us all through Christ?

 

From my point of view, there is no need for an outside entity to do anything: all that I need comes from within me and other living people, not deities, supernatural spirts, etc. Call it secular humanism if you like, or atheistic existentialism.

 

I see what is going on now. You feel you are God in a way as you have replaced that deity, namely Christ, for yourself. That is why some are saying that I am "God in the flesh."

 

So who sets your standards?

 

Outside entities cannot affect my interior life because there is no proof that they exist. My sense of spirituality is from knowing that I am part of the planet and the universe and that that is enough for me. We still have not heard what your interior life is like? The closest we've gotten is a rehash of christian dogma that, believe me, we all know already. Not that I'm really expecting much. Just thought I'd throw you a bone.

 

You see your view all comes from a presupposition that God does not exist. Mine, however is that He does. That is the major difference we are all speaking from.

 

My sense of spirituality is knowing Christ and that I am a part of Him, thus wanting to honor Him through my actions as a believer in Him.

 

What else do you need to know about my interior spirituality? Ask specific questions so I can give specific answers, if not I will just speak on it.

 

My sister is a liberal christian, and she can certainly explain her moments of feeling close to god, the wind on her skin or how the ocean's roar creates a stir in her soul, that is to say, a tactile, sensual experience. But that may be asking too much on a discussion board where you are defending your faith to the apostates. Oh well.

 

And thanks for the Kind Words, OpenMinded. Mucho appreciated that I am understood.

 

Expierences with God for me, are extremely personal and very revealing of my heart. To put that on display in such vivid words is a bit much and I am thinking would be laughed at by most, seeing some of your responses to me this far. But for the sake of revealing the spiritual side, or the feeling of it and the need to exalt Christ to what He is, I will.

 

My personal expierences with God, which move me spiritually are almost directly related while I am in deep prayer and forgiveness of my sins. I am clear-minded and not worried about anything but who I am speaking to, my Lord and Savior. What I have done to wrong Him through my life is something that brings grave regret and shame to me and I usually cry tears because of His love being shown to me in the prayer of forgiveness.

 

When praying out loud, deep down secrets of darkness in my soul are revealed to me. For me, when praying and tears start flowing from my eyes, when on my knees, confessing my soul to God, my body literally becomes numb. I for one, do not think that is by chance the reaction my body has to the outward decleration of my sins to Christ. I know the Holy Spirit is seeing the light from all the darkness within me. It is, as if, God Himself is speaking to me through those expierences of spiritual wholeness I feel after praying so deeply, so in love with the Lord.

 

Oh, I don't know why... Ok, when isn't it always love? When a mother loves their child, is it only love if they believe in God? If not, is it real love or fake love? Just answer that one question.

 

On point two, well sure, yeah. Of course it's not love in God's name if you don't believe in God. But it is love nonetheless, so it is love for loves sake.

 

IMO, that is *real*, honest to goodness, genuine love. Not this bullshit fake, artificial, plastic, facade, pretend, intellectual but no soul, blinded to others, and lost to yourself phony love that I hear as the fruits of your beliefs. Sorry Sub, but that is the way it is - point blank.

 

It is always love for anybody who sees it and does it, but it isn't recognized as love to Christ when you don't love Him.

 

It is real love if a mother loves her child.

 

It can't be love for loves sake, because God is love.

[Curtdude]

....Why should I give up because God is beyong my capacity to comprehend fully?

 

I think this is a very concise and personalized assessment of your spirituality. You stated how you felt.

The day may come when you tire of not understanding. That is a big maybe. My entire family and all of my church friends have not reached that point. They still fall back on "god's ways are not our ways" rationale.

 

Apostates have tired of not understanding and trying to fit christian dogma into a logical whole, while at the same time oberving a real-time world that doesn't jive w/ the scriptures. We have tired of the disconnect we felt between the planet, our churches, our friends, and ultimately - our identities. We tired of the "bummer trip" that christianity made life, and tired of being worthless souls only fit for god's company through some bizarre blood sacrifice.

 

We tired of the damned conditional love that christianity sold our hearts as worthwhile, only to be tossed aside by all of our christian friends as soon as we honestly asked a couple of questions. Conditional love...yeah, the check's in the mail, too.

 

When I see the beauty of life, the good people out there, the love of my partner, the beat of my step as I "click my boots on Market Street", all that tired, exhausting christian dogma fades away and call it "spirituality" or whatever, but it FEELS good to be me, and be alive.

 

Hey Antler, no name change here. I've posted around quite a bit on Totally Off Topic and Rants. I rarely debate, but this issue seemed more emotional, so I chimed in.

[Guest sub_zer0]

The day may come when you tire of not understanding. That is a big maybe. My entire family and all of my church friends have not reached that point. They still fall back on "god's ways are not our ways" rationale.

 

Apostates have tired of not understanding and trying to fit christian dogma into a logical whole, while at the same time oberving a real-time world that doesn't jive w/ the scriptures. We have tired of the disconnect we felt between the planet, our churches, our friends, and ultimately - our identities. We tired of the "bummer trip" that christianity made life, and tired of being worthless souls only fit for god's company through some bizarre blood sacrifice.

 

We tired of the damned conditional love that christianity sold our hearts as worthwhile, only to be tossed aside by all of our christian friends as soon as we honestly asked a couple of questions. Conditional love...yeah, the check's in the mail, too.

 

When I see the beauty of life, the good people out there, the love of my partner, the beat of my step as I "click my boots on Market Street", all that tired, exhausting christian dogma fades away and call it "spirituality" or whatever, but it FEELS good to be me, and be alive.

 

Hey Antler, no name change here. I've posted around quite a bit on Totally Off Topic and Rants. I rarely debate, but this issue seemed more emotional, so I chimed in.

 

Since you are speaking of a love with your partner and not wife specifically, are you gay?

[Eponymic]

Why should I give up because God is beyong my capacity to comprehend fully?

 

It's not a matter of giving up God. Plenty of people here still believe a God exists.

 

But most of us are willing to accept that we don't have enough information (or have learned that none of the given religions are accurate or honest) to determine exactly what God is. By following the Biblical structure, you're claiming to KNOW without a doubt, exactly who and what God is.

 

And considering the Bible was written during a time of great ignorance & was written with the human intent to extend Patriarchal control, you should understand why, with that alone, that we don't believe that its the word of God. Let alone all the other evidence that exists disproving the Bible's validity as a historical or spiritually accurate tome. Great ideas, but it's certainly not the end all word of God.

[Curtdude]

My responses are in red below:

 

OK, you are right that I had to accept something outside of myself. But the influence of that outisde force is what causes my inside to change. When my inside changes then the outward actions of my inward beliefs and morals and such, become more like that outside influence. Nothing is controlling me that I do not let control me. Thanks for the heart felt response.

 

Because I act on my acceptance of something outward, it becomes a lack of spiritual feeling? Not at all. We have been referring to the reiteration of dogma rather than your thoughts and emotions.

 

The self you speak about is not worthless, if we were, why is God still trying to save us all through Christ? Then why in christianity is the self worthy of hell? No need to answer, I already know the christian answer.

 

From my point of view, there is no need for an outside entity to do anything: all that I need comes from within me and other living people, not deities, supernatural spirts, etc. Call it secular humanism if you like, or atheistic existentialism.

 

I see what is going on now. You feel you are God in a way as you have replaced that deity, namely Christ, for yourself. That is why some are saying that I am "God in the flesh." I do not consider myself a deity; rather I see myself and the world as the only reality, no outside entity is even needed.

 

So who sets your standards? I am in a social contract with the rest of the world, and my relations with the world are based on the Golden Rule.

 

......

You see your view all comes from a presupposition that God does not exist. Mine, however is that He does. That is the major difference we are all speaking from. Exactamundo, dude.....

 

Expierences with God for me, are extremely personal and very revealing of my heart. To put that on display in such vivid words is a bit much and I am thinking would be laughed at by most, seeing some of your responses to me this far. But for the sake of revealing the spiritual side, or the feeling of it and the need to exalt Christ to what He is, I will. Your description following is, I believe, something all of us apostates can relate with and understand. Thank you for revealing your emotional responses to the dogma and your beliefs. They are very similar to my own when I was a believer. This is why it is so painful for many on this board to just hear the dogma repeated back. We already know all of that. Antler (if I can presume to speak for him on this) was after your interior life, and you just revealed some of that. Again, thanks, dude. :wink:

 

 

 

....

Since you are speaking of a love with your partner and not wife specifically, are you gay?

 

Yeah. I hope this does not make a difference, but I'm certainly used to it being a big deal.

[Amethyst]

Wow, I cannot tell you the powerful tug I'm having now on my heart strings as if some big HUGE revelation has opened up for me. WHY it has taken this long to see it, I do not know but right now I just want to cry because I pity Sub_Zero. This utter pity I feel for him/her is for all of those stuck in the noose of any religion claiming to have the only truth. I want to cry because I was there myself and I am seeing how utterly closed minded I was as a bible literalist. The message is right there, in black and white in ALL religions timeless and eternal... is the MESSAGE OF LOVE!!! Claims on the truth are NOT eternal. It is NOT eternal that only the Jews can know God or only the Christians can know God, or only the Muslims can know God, or only the Hindus can know God, or only the Egyptians....those are EVER CHANGING...what is eternal is the message of love.

 

Love does not contradict, HATE and intolerance contradict. Take out all the contradictions from religions that go against unconditional love and there is most certainly a pure and loving message in which all humanity is able to grasp if it wants.

 

That's actually very profound. (I'm just catching up on this debate.) What's sad is that so many people think that they are the only ones who know love, and that nobody else can because they don't have Real True Love because they don't follow one path over another. Serene, you should write a book.

Seriously.

[Open_Minded]

Sub ... we've been through this. Don't go there ... you need to get back to a level of discussion that does not put you in a position of speaking for "All Christians".

 

I am not speaking for all Christians. I am saying to be a Christian you need to believe in the following about Christ and the Bible.

 

Whatever you think you are doing - in reality you are making assumptions for "all Christians". You are assuming "all Christians" understand .... God, Jesus, Christ, the Bible and the world by the standards of your particular theology. That is a false assumption.

 

I am NOT the only Christian who understands God, Jesus, Christ, the Bible and the world differently than you do, Sub. There are many more. I posted a quote from Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. several posts ago. It bears repeating here. He was a Lutheran Minister - he did not share your theology.

 

 

A genuine revolution of values means in the final analysis that our loyalties must become ecumenical rather than sectional. Every nation must now develop an overriding loyalty to mankind as a whole in order to preserve the best in their individual societies.

 

This call for a worldwide fellowship that lifts neighborly concern beyond one’s tribe, race, class, and nation is in reality a call for an all-embracing and unconditional love for all mankind. This oft misunderstood this oft misinterpreted concept, so readily dismissed by the Nietzsches of the world as a weak and cowardly force, has now become an absolute necessity for the survival of man. When I speak of love I am not speaking of some sentimental and weak response. I’m not speaking of that force which is just emotional bosh. I am speaking of that force which all the great religions have seen as the supreme unifying principle of life. Love is somehow the key that unlocks the door which leads to ultimate reality. This Hindu-Muslim-Christian-Jewish-Buddhist belief about ultimate reality is beautifully summed up in the first epistle of Saint John: ---- Let us love one another (Yes), for love is God. (Yes) and every one that loveth is born of God and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God, for God is love --- If we love one another, God dwelleth in us and his love is perfected in us. --- Let us hope that this spirit will become the order of the day.

 

We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. The oceans of history are made turbulent by the ever-rising tides of hate. History is cluttered with the wreckage of nations and individuals that pursued this self-defeating path of hate. As Arnold Toynbee says: --- Love is the ultimate force that makes for the saving choice of life and good against the damning choice of death and evil. therefore the first hope in our inventory must be the hope that love is going to have the last word..

 

Dr. King was a Lutheran minister ... the theology he lived by was no where near the theology you live by. There are millions of Christians who would look at the theology of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and embrace it ... so do not make assumptions about "all Christians" here.

[Antlerman]

Expierences with God for me, are extremely personal and very revealing of my heart. To put that on display in such vivid words is a bit much and I am thinking would be laughed at by most, seeing some of your responses to me this far. But for the sake of revealing the spiritual side, or the feeling of it and the need to exalt Christ to what He is, I will.

Your description following is, I believe, something all of us apostates can relate with and understand. Thank you for revealing your emotional responses to the dogma and your beliefs. They are very similar to my own when I was a believer. This is why it is so painful for many on this board to just hear the dogma repeated back. We already know all of that. Antler (if I can presume to speak for him on this) was after your interior life, and you just revealed some of that. Again, thanks, dude.

Thank you Sub. I would never attack you for your honest feelings, and I doubt anyone here would, and if they did I’m sure most of us would not approve. This is in fact what I have been looking for, and I agree with Curtdude that we react so strongly against hearing dogma. I feel I have heard pat answers and not you until now. Think about it: "Changed life? Where?" all we've heard is dogma. We've hear no spirituality. Dogma does not speak to the heart. It speaks to the mind and conflicts with the heart. Therein is the emotional disconnect.

 

When you hear me rail, it’s against the dogma. No doubt you will see more of it because it is very frustrating to see at work in another human being, and having experienced it firsthand, it is overwhelming clear to me and others what is going on. For now, a brief respite….