Open_Minded Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 I had to laugh when he picked up on the word "partner" when you used it, and first thing asked was if you were gay. .... I know. Story of my life. Groan. Not sure if that is why he left, but it seemed kinda obvious to me. Yeh ... I had sort of wondered too..... My brother is gay, I'm not even surprised anymore at the kind of stuff he and his partner have to deal with. One of the funniest was an email from our very conservative Catholic cousin. He sent my brother an email forgiving him for being gay and comparing being gay to being an alcoholic. I don't know ... I think the fact that my brother and his partner don't hide who they are forces people to grow up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Although Sub has been very quiet ~ he has posted today ... in the 'reading the Bible as literal is NOT a requirement thread'. I hope he comes back to this discussion, because this that follows Sub, is prompted by your description of your relationship with God.) ... One of the things I discovered whilst leaving fundamentalism is that a consequence of having one's inner spirituality dictated from outside - was that I didn't know who I really was. One of the 'themes' of Christianity that used to affect me very deeply and which always produced an emotional response in me - was the idea of acceptance. The hymn 'Just as I am' - always used to make me cry and to be loved and accepted for who I really am and not some facade or false projection of self has always been important to me ... but the thing about fundamentalism is, that there are dozens of other themes that undermine and detract from any idea that we are loved and accepted 'just as we are' by the God of the Bible. After a lifetime of being told what was 'acceptable' behaviour and wanting to 'please' God, I discovered that I didn't really know what 'I' truly wanted - I wasn't sure 'who' I really was. I scared my partner ( ) half to death by announcing that I didn't really know if I believed in or wanted to be 'married' ... not because there was anything wrong with my marriage, but because I simply didn't know if that was the course I would have chosen for myself ... my life had been mapped out for me from an early age and continued 'love and acceptance' flowing my way from my wider family was dependent on following this set course. Now maybe in part my experience of having to 'find out who I truly am' was compounded by the timing of my deconversion and maybe it was in part some kind of a midlife crisis but I think my fundamentalism certainly left me ill equipped to know who I am. I was a little bit scared I would turn out to be a 'vile worthless sinner'. I think that years of being told I couldn't be trusted to do good without Jesus - left me feeling untrustworthy. Over the weekend my hubs suddenly announced that he was encountering this strange sort of questioning about 'who am I?' and 'why do I want what I want?'. I reminded him that I'd experienced something similar and recounted the painful conversations we had had about whether or not marriage was something 'I wanted'. This look of relief appeared on his face. It hadn't mattered how many times I'd told him before that my questions were not complaints about our relationship, that's how they had seemed to him until he too experienced this questioning of 'self'. I mention all this because it strikes a cord with me, with sub's description of his inner life. Sub - I remember very clearly many emotional quiet times and 'encounters with God', in which I felt so bad about my shortfalls, in which in my minds eye I would 'fall at the feet of my saviour' and hand myself over to be 'moulded' into something more acceptable and the gratitude I felt that such an all powerful awesome God would bother with such a useless base creation as me ... Some days I think my deconversion began the first moment I held my first born son in my arms. Because I knew then that I never ever wanted him to consider himself a vile worthless sinner - that no change was necessary in order that I love him, that he was perfect in everyway, and that I wouldn't change one little detail about him, because then he wouldn't be 'him'. And that I wanted to have NO plans for the career path he would take, or the relationships he would have, that I would love whom ever he loved (male or female), that I had no desire to shape him or bend him to please me and that my love for him was not conditional on his obedience or submission to any route I would have chosen for him (if I was choosing). The thought that he might one day yearn to be like someone else, that he might ask God to forgive him for being him - and to mould him into someone else - made me sick to my stomach. And the day I realised this was, I guess, the day BibleGod started shrinking. (p.s today is the last day - for forty days, that I'm going to post. As a family we try and give up something during Lent - and focus more attention on our nearest and dearest. The TV is going, but my daughter pointed out that this is no longer such a 'big' distraction as we all spend quite a bit of time online, so this year MSN and forums are going too!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmccaskill Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Although Sub has been very quiet ~ he has posted today ... in the 'reading the Bible as literal is NOT a requirement thread'. Gee there is a suprise. He doesn't finish heavy discussion in one thread and starts posting in another thread. Too proud to say "You all have given me lots of things to think about concerning my religion". He'd rather not admit to himself that he could be wrong or that there exist other possibilities. It is ignorance and arrogance such as this that keep the world in its subdued state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Gee there is a suprise. He doesn't finish heavy discussion in one thread and starts posting in another thread. Too proud to say "You all have given me lots of things to think about concerning my religion". He'd rather not admit to himself that he could be wrong or that there exist other possibilities. It is ignorance and arrogance such as this that keep the world in its subdued state. Mmccaskill, actually it is good that he is still participating on this site, IMO. I know that my beliefs have changed dramatically here, although not overnight. It takes awhile to change, and there is this uneasy feeling inside that gets awkward, to say the least. I wasn't even close to being fundamentalist, so I can imagine how these insights can rock their world! Fundamentalist spirituality is a 'sacred' thing upon which is the great foundation that all else is built upon, and one has to find a place to put their next step before they can leave that one. It seems to me, he is still searching for that step... as I think we all are searching for some answers too. I don't think Sub Zero is still trying to convert everyone here! He, like me, is probably amazed at the new info he is finding out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted February 28, 2006 Author Share Posted February 28, 2006 Gee there is a suprise. He doesn't finish heavy discussion in one thread and starts posting in another thread. Too proud to say "You all have given me lots of things to think about concerning my religion". He'd rather not admit to himself that he could be wrong or that there exist other possibilities. It is ignorance and arrogance such as this that keep the world in its subdued state. Well... if Sub actually has gleaned some new perspectives to consider in his ideas of what "truth" is, I'm happy for him. I certainly would not expect someone to necessary expose their private considerations to the world, and especially to us so soon as it would expose something to us he or others may not be ready to deal with openly yet. I hope this is so for Sub's sake of peace with the world around him, but even so if not, there have been a lot of good insights shared by everyone and put out there for everyone to consider. This thread has been useful, and my plan is to resurrect it periodically when various hard-line fundamentalists come along as a point for their consideration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 I think the whole use of words as almost incantations in christianity stems from the "In the beginning was the Word..." stuff in John 1. Rather similar to mantras in hinduism and buddhism. Just recite some verse like Jn. 3:16 and the words themselves with the holy spirit's help will work on the unsaved. Just like magic. 'Cause that's exactly what it is. Oh, how true that is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmccaskill Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Gee there is a suprise. He doesn't finish heavy discussion in one thread and starts posting in another thread. Too proud to say "You all have given me lots of things to think about concerning my religion". He'd rather not admit to himself that he could be wrong or that there exist other possibilities. It is ignorance and arrogance such as this that keep the world in its subdued state. Mmccaskill, actually it is good that he is still participating on this site, IMO. Where did I say that it wasn't a good thing that he is still participating on the site? All I said is he should finish threads before starting new ones. It takes awhile to change, and there is this uneasy feeling inside that gets awkward, to say the least. I wasn't even close to being fundamentalist, so I can imagine how these insights can rock their world! I know that potentially takes a long time to change. I didn't say that he should change overnight. But it isn't unreasonable for him to admit that maybe what he is taught is the Truth™ possibly isn't. I don't think Sub Zero is still trying to convert everyone here! There is a remote possibility that you are correct. But given his past behavior on other sites I have reasonable expectations that he is still here to convert. I would however like that to change. Gee there is a suprise. He doesn't finish heavy discussion in one thread and starts posting in another thread. Too proud to say "You all have given me lots of things to think about concerning my religion". He'd rather not admit to himself that he could be wrong or that there exist other possibilities. It is ignorance and arrogance such as this that keep the world in its subdued state. Well... if Sub actually has gleaned some new perspectives to consider in his ideas of what "truth" is, I'm happy for him. As I am happy for him if that is the case. I'm not meaning to imply otherwise. This thread has been useful, and my plan is to resurrect it periodically when various hard-line fundamentalists come along as a point for their consideration. Good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtdude Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 I think the whole use of words as almost incantations in christianity stems from the "In the beginning was the Word..." stuff in John 1. Rather similar to mantras in hinduism and buddhism. Just recite some verse like Jn. 3:16 and the words themselves with the holy spirit's help will work on the unsaved. Just like magic. 'Cause that's exactly what it is. Oh, how true that is! Glad to know that I'm not too far out there...thanks . Alice, before you log off for Lenten Prayer and Fasting (hehehehe) I really liked what you said here: "One of the things I discovered whilst leaving fundamentalism is that a consequence of having one's inner spirituality dictated from outside - was that I didn't know who I really was." Isn't that the truth, hon. Calvinists are probably the worst on this score, since they believe that every fibre of their being is hostile to good and seeks evil. Only through Tha Lawrd comes any goodness, joy or peace. Blech. I guess I can't really say "have a fun Lent" (sorta contradictory), but enjoy all the same. I'll miss you posts - you've always got something insightful or positive to contribute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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