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Goodbye Jesus

After Texas Stopped Funding Planned Parenthood, Low-Income Women Had More Babies


Fweethawt

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It's just ironic that y'all have a fit over God killing people but then simply reduce life down to an time sensitive arrangement of cells.

 

And then shouldn't it follow that you should accept reductionism?

 

You got it backwards.  You are the one calling a zygote a person.  I don't have a fit over God.  I recognize that God is fiction.  I use the Bible stories about God killing people to demonstrate that the Bible contradicts the Biblical claims that God loves people.

 

Perhaps we should talk about reductionism in a new thread?  This one is about why it was foolish for Texas to stop funding planed parenthood.  Abortions and birth control should be basic human rights provided at taxpayer expense.

 

 

Whoa! Just stop. Taxpayer expense?  Do you realize that to earn money I have to use my body?  I demand complete autonomy over everything my body produces.  It's mine to do with as I see fit.

NOBODY has any "human right" paid for by me without my consent.  

Feel free to give all your money to PP if you want, but I'll be damned if you Forced Taxers will appropriate and manipulate what my body produces for your own ends.

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end3: So you admit your position is based on your feelings? And because of your personal feelings about other people's lives and bodies, you would pass laws forcing others to follow your emotion-based opinion.

 

It may not be your call, personally, to end a pregnancy. So when you and your wife are expecting, the two of you can have the baby. But not everyone is in your circumstances. For whatever reason, ending the pregnancy is right for some people. Your beliefs should guide your own life, and others should be allowed to make decisions that are appropriate for them and their situation - which, I will emphasize again, may be different from yours.

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I guess what bothers me is that both of you seem to be saying that if we took MM or SL and reversed the growing process to the point where we couldn't recognize either of you, you would then say it's ok to kill that person. Is this accurate?

Reverse growing process? You can be a good scifi writer.

 

On the other hand if you are talking about a hypothetical time period a long time ago when my mother was pregnant with me and let say she had decided to abort me... I have no issue with that.

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Texas health official out of job over study favorable to Planned Parenthood

 

Needless to say, bringing out a report with actual facts is always a risky career move within conservative governmental culture. The correct procedure is to always slant your research toward ideology, thus creating a rationale for that ideology -- just like how they approach the Bible. If you find contrary information, it is good for your career to suppress it. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/02/19/texas-health-official-out-of-job-over-study-favorable-to-planned-parenthood/?hpid=hp_no-name_morning-mix-story-f-duplicate%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

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I guess what bothers me is that both of you seem to be saying that if we took MM or SL and reversed the growing process to the point where we couldn't recognize either of you, you would then say it's ok to kill that person. Is this accurate?

 

I would be okay with my mother having an abortion with me. Because 1) as a nonsentient cell clump I would have no opinion and 2) I respect my mother too much to want her to have been forced to give birth against her will.

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I think the government should be making all the decisions about a woman's body for them. 

 

But aren't you against big government?

 

Yes, but not when it's making all the decisions about a woman's body for them. 

 

WendyDoh.gif 

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I think the government should be making all the decisions about a woman's body for them. 

 

But aren't you against big government?

 

Yes, but not when it's making all the decisions about a woman's body for them. 

 

WendyDoh.gif

I don't agree with people that make the choice to kill people. It has nothing to do with the government.

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I guess what bothers me is that both of you seem to be saying that if we took MM or SL and reversed the growing process to the point where we couldn't recognize either of you, you would then say it's ok to kill that person. Is this accurate?

 

I would be okay with my mother having an abortion with me. Because 1) as a nonsentient cell clump I would have no opinion and 2) I respect my mother too much to want her to have been forced to give birth against her will.

 

That doesn't come as a surprise to me SL.

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I think the government should be making all the decisions about a woman's body for them. 

 

But aren't you against big government?

 

Yes, but not when it's making all the decisions about a woman's body for them. 

 

WendyDoh.gif

I don't agree with people that make the choice to kill people. It has nothing to do with the government.

 

 

 

Except a fetus isn't a person.  A fetus is something that grows inside a person.

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I think the government should be making all the decisions about a woman's body for them. 

 

But aren't you against big government?

 

Yes, but not when it's making all the decisions about a woman's body for them. 

 

WendyDoh.gif

I don't agree with people that make the choice to kill people. It has nothing to do with the government.

 

 

 

Except a fetus isn't a person.  A fetus is something that grows inside a person.

 

 

It's a human being. Human beings grow inside of their mother. That's how it works, whether someone wants to ignore the science of it or not.  Don't believe me? Cut one out and slap it on the ass and see what you get.

    

Personhood is a legal standing. Men could make a law saying that the moon is made of green cheese, but that wouldn't change the fact that it's not. 

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 That's how it works, whether someone wants to ignore the science of it or not.  

 

 

You are the one who ignores the science.

 

 

 

 Don't believe me? Cut one out and slap it on the ass and see what you get.

 

You mean turn it into NOT A FETUS?  How will making it into a former fetus prove anything about the nature of a fetus?  Did you even think about this before you wrote it?

 

 

 

 

 

Personhood is a legal standing. Men could make a law saying that the moon is made of green cheese, but that wouldn't change the fact that it's not. 

 

 

 

Fact:  Every single fetus is inside a mother.

 

Fact:  Every single fetus is built by it's mother.

 

Fact:  Every single fetus has no context to understand itself or life.

 

Fact:  There are all kinds of problems in this world; complications, limitations.  We can't all have pristine, fairy-tale like lives.

 

Fact:  Some mothers have no desire to raise a child.

 

Fact:  Most unwanted children suffer because they are not wanted.

 

Fact:  Some mothers are not able to raise a child.

 

Fact:  Children born to poverty suffer for it.

 

Fact:  On the whole society leaves single mothers to fend for themselves.  Programs exist to help but they are not enough.

 

Fact:  Our world is becoming overpopulated.  Aggression, crime, violence and poverty all increase when our population increases.

 

Fact:  The best argument the ForcedBirthers can come us with is:  Well, um, I have this feeling and to me a fetus feels like a person.  So now everyone else on the planet has to live their lives by my feelings.

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I guess what bothers me is that both of you seem to be saying that if we took MM or SL and reversed the growing process to the point where we couldn't recognize either of you, you would then say it's ok to kill that person. Is this accurate?

 

I would be okay with my mother having an abortion with me. Because 1) as a nonsentient cell clump I would have no opinion and 2) I respect my mother too much to want her to have been forced to give birth against her will.

 

That doesn't come as a surprise to me SL.

 

Then what was the point of your little scenario?

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My responses in blue...

 

 

 That's how it works, whether someone wants to ignore the science of it or not.  

 

 

You are the one who ignores the science.  No, you do.  A human's life doesn't begin when it draws it's first breath. 

 

 

 


 Don't believe me? Cut one out and slap it on the ass and see what you get.

 

You mean turn it into NOT A FETUS?  How will making it into a former fetus prove anything about the nature of a fetus?  Did you even think about this before you wrote it?

 

Here's what I said..."It's a human being. Human beings grow inside of their mother. That's how it works, whether someone wants to ignore the science of it or not.  Don't believe me? Cut one out and slap it on the ass and see what you get."  It's a little different when you quote the whole thing instead of quoting me in that special way you have. Again. But that's ok, we'll go with fetus. What's a fetus?  One of the meanings of fetus is offspring. Fetus means an unborn offspring of a mammal.

The dictionary defines fetus as "a human being or animal in the later stages of development before it is born". Here's a link: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fetus

Yeah. That's not an eggplant in there, mm. It's a human being.   

 

 

 

 


Personhood is a legal standing. Men could make a law saying that the moon is made of green cheese, but that wouldn't change the fact that it's not. 

 

No argument on this ^^? Do you agree that personhood is a legal status, and not a scientific one?  But onward...

 

Fact:  Every single fetus is inside a mother.  True. That's where humans grow. Sometimes one comes out or has to come out a little early, and they can be kept alive with an incubator and some tubes taking mom's place. I guess if they haven't reached nine unborn months old then it's ok to grab them out of the incubator and smash them on the floor? Or chop them up and sell the parts? 

 

Fact:  Every single fetus is built by it's mother. True. That's how humans grow before they are born.

 

Fact:  Every single fetus has no context to understand itself or life.  I don't always understand myself or life either, mymistake. But it seems that since the offspring can kick, respond to music, and suck its thumb, there may be some context. 

 

Fact:  There are all kinds of problems in this world; complications, limitations.  We can't all have pristine, fairy-tale like lives. True. But that doesn't make a human being a non human being.

 

Fact:  Some mothers have no desire to raise a child. True, but that doesn't make a human being a non human being.

 

Fact:  Most unwanted children suffer because they are not wanted. Maybe some. But that doesn't make a human being a non human being.

 

Fact:  Some mothers are not able to raise a child. True. But that doesn't make a human being a non human being.

 

Fact:  Children born to poverty suffer for it. Some do; some get rich. But either way, poverty doesn't make a human being a non human being.

 

Fact:  On the whole society leaves single mothers to fend for themselves.  Programs exist to help but they are not enough. Debatable, but what the hell, have it your way. Still, social programs or the lack of them or the efficiency of them doesn't make a human being a non human being.

 

Fact:  Our world is becoming overpopulated.  Aggression, crime, violence and poverty all increase when our population increases. Then we should kill off the overflow, huh?  But it's not the babies that are causing that, so let's kill off the adults that are, because if the planet had twenty billion people and crime was a thousand times as bad as it is now it wouldn't make a human being a non human being.  

 

Fact:  The best argument the ForcedBirthers can come us with is:  Well, um, I have this feeling and to me a fetus feels like a person.  So now everyone else on the planet has to live their lives by my feelings "Forced Birthers". That's rich (and really stupid sounding), but has no bearing on the issue.  A fetus is a human being. Personhood is a different thing. It looks to me like all you have are feelings. You certainly don't have science or common sense on your side.

You don't want the unborn baby to be an unborn baby, so you'll pretend it's something else, and the miracle happens when it slides down the birth canal far enough to pop its head out and gain some experience. 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not discounting the problems that come with unexpected pregnancies or unwanted babies, but pretending that a baby is something else isn't the answer to them. 

If you'll remember, somewhere on these forums I said that abortion has to be legal in certain circumstances. I said in fact, that it has to be. But that doesn't change the fact that at the very least, when there is heart and brain activity, abortion is killing a living human being.

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It's a little different when you quote the whole thing instead of quoting me in that special way you have.  

 

 

No, it isn't.  I've told you several times now.  Your original is always sitting right there for all to see.  I can't alter it so your words are preserved forever.  Kindly stop trying to paint me as being dishonest when in reality all I am doing is saving bandwidth and being precise.  I cannot change your words.  I would never try.  It's boneheaded for you to demand that I quote your entire message when only part is required.  Everyone in the whole forum can scroll up and read your message and see the whole thing for themselves with their own eyes.  There is no need to copy the whole thing again.  

 

We have also been over the fact that in this context everyone knows we are talking about a living human fetus.  You don't have to remind us it is alive.  We don't think an abortion is performed on a dead fetus or an undead fetus or any other nonsense.  Every time you mention it is alive you are wasting time.  We already know.  Every time you mention it is human we already know so you waste our time.  In this context we are not talking about abortions preformed by a veterinarian.  We are talking about a human fetus that grows inside a person.  We get it.  This changes nothing.  But you say a human being?  Isn't that a religious concept?  Personally I prefer to base my values on empirical evidence.

 

You are using humans and human beings as interchangeable with person and this just isn't so.  We don't give social security numbers to frozen eggs or cancer tumors.  That just isn't practical.  And that is the problem with the anti-abortion rights camp.  It's based on idealistic views that don't work in the real world.  As soon as your force all the pregnant women to give birth against their wishes the babies become freeloaders dragging on your tax dollar.  You are not going to lift a finger to help out any of those lives you "save".  They can breath so now they have to go away and stop bothering you.

 

 

 

No argument on this ^^? Do you agree that personhood is a legal status, and not a scientific one?

 

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

 

 

 

But that doesn't make a human being a non human being.

 

Zygotes and brain-dead vegetables are human beings.  That doesn't mean they have rights or should have rights.  Being human isn't enough.  We throw away human tissue all the time and it has human DNA.

 

 

 

 

Then we should kill off the overflow, huh?  But it's not the babies that are causing that, so let's kill off the adults that are, because if the planet had twenty billion people and crime was a thousand times as bad as it is now it wouldn't make a human being a non human being.  

 

Abortion is not a punishment of the fetus.  It's not even about punishment.  It is allowing the mother to mercy kill her own offspring before it is born, before it knows what life is all about, before it suffers.

 

 

 

 

 It looks to me like all you have are feelings.

 

Because when faced with a list of facts you choose not to notice?  Hello?  You even agreed with many of them.  You must have a short memory.

 

 

 

 

. . . but pretending that a baby is something else isn't the answer to them

 

 

 

 

I would never pretend a baby is something else.  A baby has, and should have, the full protection of the law.  A baby lives outside it's mother and has the context of birth and sensing the outside world.  The time for mercy killing is before a fetus is born.

 

 

 

. . . and the miracle happens when it slides down the birth canal far enough to pop its head out and gain some experience. 

 

I didn't paint it as a miracle.  It's completely natural and objective.  I've explained all the details but you were not interested so I see no reason to repeat it all yet again.

 

 

 

. . . when there is heart and brain activity, abortion is killing a living human being.

 

Human beings can be killed when there is no heart and/or brain activity.  Who knows how many zygotes we have frozen over the years.  Nobody (outside the Bible Belt) cares when one of them is destroyed.  And many a human being was killed when the life support was turned off because someone realized keeping a brain dead human being alive is pointless.  And let's not forget that women kill human beings periodically without even realizing it as part of the natural reproductive cycle.

 

You need to come up with a reason that the fetus has special rights when a woman is trying to kill it that it doesn't enjoy at other times.  An actual reason, not just asserting it's human.

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MM:  "Fact:  Our world is becoming overpopulated.  Aggression, crime, violence and poverty all increase when our population increases." 

 

Duderonomy:  "Then we should kill off the overflow, huh?  But it's not the babies that are causing that, so let's kill off the adults that are, because if the planet had twenty billion people and crime was a thousand times as bad as it is now it wouldn't make a human being a non human being."

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

MM quoting me:  "Then we should kill off the overflow, huh?  But it's not the babies that are causing that, so let's kill off the adults that are, because if the planet had twenty billion people and crime was a thousand times as bad as it is now it wouldn't make a human being a non human being." 

MM's answer to the part he quoted:  "Abortion is not a punishment of the fetus.  It's not even about punishment.  It is allowing the mother to mercy kill her own offspring before it is born, before it knows what life is all about, before it suffers."

 

What? MM, where in the hell did I say anything about punishing a fetus here? You see, you ignored part of what was said. I was making a point that contradicted yours.  The way you quoted only part of the exchange allowed you to go off to la-la land where you imply that someone wants to punish a fetus. That's what you do to me too often, and that's why I call it out. There are other examples, even in other threads, and when you do this it makes it difficult to have a serious discussion with you.

 

Also, you are still confusing a person's legal status with what a person is. According to your way of thinking, I was a six foot two inch one hundred and some pound fetus when I was fifteen years old. I didn't get my Social Security number until I turned 16. Government and legislation is one thing...life is another.

 

So tell me, other than a little bit of tissue between the baby that's inside the mother at say, four in the afternoon, and the same baby that's on the outside at six in the evening and in an incubator, what's the difference? I'm talking about reality here, not legal standing or the price of tea in China, or the crime rate in Chicago, or how many frozen zygotes can dance on the head of a pin.

 

Let's get to it. What's the difference in my example above? You might say the difference was birth, but in my example, there was no birth. It was a C-section.  

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