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Goodbye Jesus

Why I Am Going Back To Church


Daffodil

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Sigh, because I love my husband, and because I live in a part of the world where everybody goes to church and that's one of the "Big 5" social questions everyone asks upon meeting someone new:

 

1) What do you do?

2) Are you married?

3) Do you have kids?

4) What church do you go to?

5) Something sports related.

 

My husband is still as agnostic as ever and I am still an atheist. So here's the disgusting confession: We're doing it for purely social reasons. It goes against everything I am and believe about myself as an authentically honest person who does not "use" people for personal gain, but what can I do? We talked about going to a universalist church, but the people we have known that go there are, for lack of a more charitable word, weird. My husband is afraid of losing important contacts as he tries to continue to move up in his career and, in case you missed it the first time, EVERYBODY goes to church here. Can you taste the disdain and irritation oozing through this keyboard? I'm barely holding back, here. I suppose this should have gone into the rants forum, but oh well. Thankfully, this is not a church that pushes heavy involvement, so we should be able to just keep a few chairs warm for an hour or so and leave. I've promised my husband that I will work hard to counteract any indoctrination I detect occurring with our children. He still doesn't think a little church'n is bad for kids. ????

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That's just sad.

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I would worry about the kids.  Is there any possibility of moving out of the bible belt?  Money isn't everything.

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Sigh, because I love my husband, and because I live in a part of the world where everybody goes to church and that's one of the "Big 5" social questions everyone asks upon meeting someone new:

 

1) What do you do?

2) Are you married?

3) Do you have kids?

4) What church do you go to?

5) Something sports related.

 

My husband is still as agnostic as ever and I am still an atheist. So here's the disgusting confession: We're doing it for purely social reasons. It goes against everything I am and believe about myself as an authentically honest person who does not "use" people for personal gain, but what can I do? We talked about going to a universalist church, but the people we have known that go there are, for lack of a more charitable word, weird. My husband is afraid of losing important contacts as he tries to continue to move up in his career and, in case you missed it the first time, EVERYBODY goes to church here. Can you taste the disdain and irritation oozing through this keyboard? I'm barely holding back, here. I suppose this should have gone into the rants forum, but oh well. Thankfully, this is not a church that pushes heavy involvement, so we should be able to just keep a few chairs warm for an hour or so and leave. I've promised my husband that I will work hard to counteract any indoctrination I detect occurring with our children. He still doesn't think a little church'n is bad for kids.

 

Daffodil, you are wonderful hon. I also do not like the message that christianity teaches. Once you know that you were not born in sin and need the blood of a savior to save you, it's so hard to listen to.

 

Even when I attended the 'grace filled' churches at the last going off of my church days, I could barely sit there and listen. You may have to think about this as a form of survival. I will admit openly that I am grateful I don't have to go anymore but I am understanding now of people who do have to go for certain reasons as to keep peace in the family. I went through a terrible bitter stage during my deconverting days here at Ex-c where I just couldn't understand why people who knew the truth continued to go. I'm much softer on the issue, as much as I still detest what religion has done to people across our globe.

 

You say your husband is agnostic? Well you are halfway there. It sounds like he needs the connection of the church for solely social and business reasons. Some may say that's using the church. We all used the church for various reasons including getting brownie points from god so we wouldn't go to hell.... The game of survival is a big game and sometimes you 'have to do what you have to do' to survive. Is this lying? Maybe. I call it survival. Besides, lying is not the worst sin you can commit, especially if you are trying not to hurt someone in the process and it sounds to me that he doesn't want to hurt anyone. 

 

Maybe go back for awhile until he gains enough confidence to get his business contacts elsewhere. Like you said, they are not a fundamentalist church. Stay on all the light topics of conversation. Enjoy the little suppers they have. If my mom came back from the dead today and told me she wanted me to go to church with her every Sunday because it would make her happy, I would do it. I wouldn't for my next door neighbor or any of my friends who know me, but if it's someone who is so important to you, go and keep the peace.

 

I have changed personalities so much here on EX-c in the last 5 years that I can form different opinions from month to month but that's because I have learned to have empathy for peoples' situations and I also know how the world's system works. I may be called a big fake for saying this but I really don't care about that anymore. Like I said, 'sometimes ya gotta' do what's ya gotta' do' to survive.

 

You're a good person to do this for your husband. 

 

(hug)

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I would worry about the kids.  Is there any possibility of moving out of the bible belt?  Money isn't everything.

We're working on that. We really don't want to stay in Kansas because of how completely Governor Brownback and his cronies are destroying the state, but we're not sure where to go or whether there will be a job available for my husband without him taking a huge pay cut. He's eligible to retire in 2018, so as long as we can find something else somewhere else, we'll hightail it outta here!

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Sigh, because I love my husband, and because I live in a part of the world where everybody goes to church and that's one of the "Big 5" social questions everyone asks upon meeting someone new:

1) What do you do?

2) Are you married?

3) Do you have kids?

4) What church do you go to?

5) Something sports related.

My husband is still as agnostic as ever and I am still an atheist. So here's the disgusting confession: We're doing it for purely social reasons. It goes against everything I am and believe about myself as an authentically honest person who does not "use" people for personal gain, but what can I do? We talked about going to a universalist church, but the people we have known that go there are, for lack of a more charitable word, weird. My husband is afraid of losing important contacts as he tries to continue to move up in his career and, in case you missed it the first time, EVERYBODY goes to church here. Can you taste the disdain and irritation oozing through this keyboard? I'm barely holding back, here. I suppose this should have gone into the rants forum, but oh well. Thankfully, this is not a church that pushes heavy involvement, so we should be able to just keep a few chairs warm for an hour or so and leave. I've promised my husband that I will work hard to counteract any indoctrination I detect occurring with our children. He still doesn't think a little church'n is bad for kids.

 

 

Daffodil, you are wonderful hon. I also do not like the message that christianity teaches. Once you know that you were not born in sin and need the blood of a savior to save you, it's so hard to listen to.

 

Even when I attended the 'grace filled' churches at the last going off of my church days, I could barely sit there and listen. You may have to think about this as a form of survival. I will admit openly that I am grateful I don't have to go anymore but I am understanding now of people who do have to go for certain reasons as to keep peace in the family. I went through a terrible bitter stage during my deconverting days here at Ex-c where I just couldn't understand why people who knew the truth continued to go. I'm much softer on the issue, as much as I still detest what religion has done to people across our globe.

 

You say your husband is agnostic? Well you are halfway there. It sounds like he needs the connection of the church for solely social and business reasons. Some may say that's using the church. We all used the church for various reasons including getting brownie points from god so we wouldn't go to hell.... The game of survival is a big game and sometimes you 'have to do what you have to do' to survive. Is this lying? Maybe. I call it survival. Besides, lying is not the worst sin you can commit, especially if you are trying not to hurt someone in the process and it sounds to me that he doesn't want to hurt anyone. 

 

Maybe go back for awhile until he gains enough confidence to get his business contacts elsewhere. Like you said, they are not a fundamentalist church. Stay on all the light topics of conversation. Enjoy the little suppers they have. If my mom came back from the dead today and told me she wanted me to go to church with her every Sunday because it would make her happy, I would do it. I wouldn't for my next door neighbor or any of my friends who know me, but if it's someone who is so important to you, go and keep the peace.

 

I have changed personalities so much here on EX-c in the last 5 years that I can form different opinions from month to month but that's because I have learned to have empathy for peoples' situations and I also know how the world's system works. I may be called a big fake for saying this but I really don't care about that anymore. Like I said, 'sometimes ya gotta' do what's ya gotta' do' to survive.

 

You're a good person to do this for your husband. 

 

(hug)

Thanks so much, Margee. I have to keep reminding myself that I'm still fairly new to this, only about a year and a half. I go back and forth between anger and compassion for people I know that are still in it. I expect to slowly develop a more live-and-let-live mindset, but it's hard. I want to be my true authentic self and not pretend anymore, but we all have to pretend to some extent just to get along with other people. My husband knows how I feel and respects it. It's give and take, I guess.

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Wow.

 

It sounds like your husband still associates church with good old-fashioned apple-pie values. There are better places to instill conscientiousness and other beneficial things in kids without taking them to listen to a pack of lies.

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I can relate to attending church for social contacts.  Maybe you should pick the two most popular churches in your area and alternate.  Reach out to the business contacts who attend.  No need to hide what you do.  If anybody asks simply smile and say you attend the other church too "because we have good friends there too".

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If the doors are open and everyone is welcome, then I don't think you are being dishonest as long as you don't get into theological discussions. Don't wear a crucifix and don't show up with a Bible in hand. Yes, it's uncomfortable, but as long as you don't present a false picture of your belief I think you are being honest. There is nothing wrong with showing up at a public event to see your friends. Their presumptions are not your problem.

 

If you can, just ignore the religious stuff and enjoy the social parts and the free food. Consider the services as entertainment. While it's mostly the same show with the same plot each time, parts of it do change. Think of all the congregants as extras in the show, and check out the costumes and makeup. When I was a kid I got through the service by asking to sit in the balcony where I could look down and count the bald heads. See if you can find a church that has communion, so you'll get something to eat part way through.

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MM and older - I think going to two churches would be too much for us both. We've only been to our church twice so far this year, and I'm already treating it as a people watching exercise. While my husband has never sung, I find it awkward not to sing, but I'm getting used to it. I actually find myself absentmindedly singing along to the tunes I always liked. I'm tempted to covertly check my email while others flip pages in their bibles - they'll just think I'm looking up verses! We've been running late which means we end up getting seated near the front. Makes it interesting when it looks like the pastor is looking right at you. We tried just going to a small group last fall and we both felt so uncomfortable with it that this seemed the better compromise. It sucks to have to get up early on Sundays, but we'll get through it.

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It sucks to have to get up early on Sundays, but we'll get through it.

Hope you can get to an early service so it doesn't screw up the whole day. Ours didn't start until 11 which meant little else could be done.
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I understand. It is a place to connect. I wouldn't worry too much about the kids, unless it's that they might blow your cover, so to speak.

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Wow.

 

It sounds like your husband still associates church with good old-fashioned apple-pie values. There are better places to instill conscientiousness and other beneficial things in kids without taking them to listen to a pack of lies.

 

Despite the differences in culture I recall being told that's why I got took to church (fairly moderate-to-liberalish, but semi-traditional Anglican) in the first place. Maybe it worked for a while before I went to uni. and on the one hand went all fundy nutcase whilst on the other developing a number of very secular bad habits. And it's fair to say that given what I hear of some in the church were like, either, good values weren't there in everyone.

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I don't know if personally I could go to another church service just for the sake of getting involved in the community. I'm sure I could get involved in some of the fundraisers and community events if I had to, but couldn't in all honesty sing hymns about a God I no longer believe in. Even wishy-washy-anglican Midnight mass type things, I felt I had to just sit there, never mind the Christmas traditional stuff. I do remember when I was at uni., going to a couple of the choral evensongs in the college chapel on a Thursday night after exams to unwind (note: I got 50% extra time due to special needs so those exams were long!) I didn't like it all that much as there wasn't much ordinary congregants did in terms of perticipating, but now I'd probably enjoy it all the more for precisely that reason! (If I felt I had to go to church at all, or it was expected socially). I don't know if there's much of that kind of thing in Kansas, though.

 

Kind of feel sorry for those living in that kind of Bible Belt type culture where socialising is very difficult without being involved in some sort of church. I think it is quite easy for me living in a country which isn't all that religious and in a family who (bar one) either never was or is just as much made up of ex-Christians anyway. I upsect in that sort of environment it would be just as well to stick to the bits that aren't strictly church services or just sit there. And try to find one that is fairly liberal but not nutcasey about it.

 

Though, you might want to avoid the events side of things and stick to the services, don't know.

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Personally I'm wondering whether to maintain contact with some of the people from my old church or other Christian friends. I have a lot on Facebook who I still keep on there but not too keen on all the Christian-related posts I get and I don't want to unfollow them either. I'm not sure I want to come clean to everybody as there are some who either are too devout to bother with, or with others it might be damaging for them as they might need that for emotional support, having come out of difficult circumstances. I have started writing my "extimony" on my blog but not sure whther to share.

 

I am not going back to church, but there are some tangentially church-related things I might still bother with- for example some of them run a lunch club for the homeless and those in difficult circumstances, which I did volunteer for one time and have been to some of the fundraising events. Might at least go to the latter, though I know the luhch club thing does insist on the whole making a gospel talk thing for the people who go to it so it's not just charity. There is another guy who's politically involved and though being part of UKIP (which goes against my resurgent lefty instincts) I am still Euroskeptic so had offered to get involved with him as part of the "Leave" campaign. Any thoughts?

 

(Sorry if I'm taking over your thread here Daffodil!)

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I would worry about the kids.  Is there any possibility of moving out of the bible belt?  Money isn't everything.

We're working on that. We really don't want to stay in Kansas because of how completely Governor Brownback and his cronies are destroying the state, but we're not sure where to go or whether there will be a job available for my husband without him taking a huge pay cut. He's eligible to retire in 2018, so as long as we can find something else somewhere else, we'll hightail it outta here!

 

 

I was born in Kansas, and I lived there until high school around 1983. I don't remember Kansas being particularly religious. I do remember that my biology teacher in 9th grade was not allowed to teach evolution. That would have been about 1982. He explained that we could read that chapter in the text book if we were interested, but some parents did not want him to teach it in class. Other than that, I don't remember religion being a problem.

 

I guess some people think Kansas is flat and ugly, but I was born there, so it seems pretty to me. I always tell people that they need to visit Kansas to see what heaven might look like. Whenever I see something pretty in nature, I tell people that it is almost as pretty as Kansas. ;)

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Whenever I see such stories I wonder........

 

If everyone in your family and town, all your potential business clients, all potential friends were going to Klan meetings rather than just some church, would you try to fit in? What if they were all Satanists or Scientologists? How far would you go to compromise, lie and discard your own values just to keep the peace or make the sale or get the job? Would you take your children to Klan functions so they would be accepted by other Klan children?

 

Do you really believe, with all you know, that Christianity is harmless?

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I would worry about the kids.  Is there any possibility of moving out of the bible belt?  Money isn't everything.

We're working on that. We really don't want to stay in Kansas because of how completely Governor Brownback and his cronies are destroying the state, but we're not sure where to go or whether there will be a job available for my husband without him taking a huge pay cut. He's eligible to retire in 2018, so as long as we can find something else somewhere else, we'll hightail it outta here!

 I was born in Kansas, and I lived there until high school around 1983. I don't remember Kansas being particularly religious. I do remember that my biology teacher in 9th grade was not allowed to teach evolution. That would have been about 1982. He explained that we could read that chapter in the text book if we were interested, but some parents did not want him to teach it in class. Other than that, I don't remember religion being a problem. I guess some people think Kansas is flat and ugly, but I was born there, so it seems pretty to me. I always tell people that they need to visit Kansas to see what heaven might look like. Whenever I see something pretty in nature, I tell people that it is almost as pretty as Kansas. ;)

I've lived here since 1992 (husband since he was 2), and we had a Democrat for governor for awhile during that time, so it's not always been like this. Unfortunately, one of the Koch brothers lives here and he has helped to fund a whole posse of conservative Republicans and fundamentalist Christians into office. Governor Brownback was a member of a mainline denomination, but converted to Catholicism while in office (if I remember correctly). I thought that would turn off evangelicals but he immediately started on the anti abortion kick and they adopted him as their favored son. We really thought we had a chance to get him out of office during the last voting cycle, but the spread was bigger than we realized. We just can't understand how so many people are willing to keep him in office despite what his administration has done to the state budget! Everyone outside of Kansas that looks at what they've done just shakes their heads in astonishment. Kansas is a textbook case of what happens when corporations take over and tax breaks are given to the rich and powerful. The latest thing that scares us personally is that to try to fix the budget, they're starting to eye the state retirement systems. That directly affects my husband as a law enforcement officer. Even if we manage to get out of here, we could still be affected by their stupidity.

 

As to the scenery, we are in the "pretty" eastern half of the state - rolling native grass-covered hills with buffalo, cattle and a few elk. The western half of the state is what people imagine when they think of flat Kansas.

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Whenever I see such stories I wonder........

 

If everyone in your family and town, all your potential business clients, all potential friends were going to Klan meetings rather than just some church, would you try to fit in? What if they were all Satanists or Scientologists? How far would you go to compromise, lie and discard your own values just to keep the peace or make the sale or get the job? Would you take your children to Klan functions so they would be accepted by other Klan children?

 

Do you really believe, with all you know, that Christianity is harmless?

No I don't think Christianity is harmless, but my husband does. However, those really aren't fair comparisons, are they? There are many levels of "crazy" in Christianity and while the one we're in is not the mildest, it is the mildest of the evangelicals. We will not give a penny to the church, I will not allow either child to go to a bible study group, and I will debrief them after every Sunday school experience. This is not a large town where we can just move to the other side and start over. Everybody who is anybody knows everyone else who is anybody important. As I said, neither of us want to stay here and we are working on getting out, but until then, we have to play by their rules to an extent. We don't lie in response to direct questions and we have confessed (so to speak) to those closest to us in the church. It is a very open and accepting church, despite its evangelical name. I would vastly prefer to just never set foot in a church again for the rest of my life, but life doesn't always allow you to live the way you ideally want to. If you're able to never ever compromise, then more power to you, but not all of us are in that position.

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However, those really aren't fair comparisons, are they?

 

 I was not comparing or contrasting them. I was just pointing out that we might consider how far we would go in compromising ourselves. Some would draw the line at pretending to be a Klan sympathiser, some draw the line at anything that would misrepresent their beliefs and identity.

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I've lived here since 1992 (husband since he was 2), and we had a Democrat for governor for awhile during that time, so it's not always been like this. Unfortunately, one of the Koch brothers lives here and he has helped to fund a whole posse of conservative Republicans and fundamentalist Christians into office. Governor Brownback was a member of a mainline denomination, but converted to Catholicism while in office (if I remember correctly). I thought that would turn off evangelicals but he immediately started on the anti abortion kick and they adopted him as their favored son. We really thought we had a chance to get him out of office during the last voting cycle, but the spread was bigger than we realized. We just can't understand how so many people are willing to keep him in office despite what his administration has done to the state budget! Everyone outside of Kansas that looks at what they've done just shakes their heads in astonishment. Kansas is a textbook case of what happens when corporations take over and tax breaks are given to the rich and powerful. The latest thing that scares us personally is that to try to fix the budget, they're starting to eye the state retirement systems. That directly affects my husband as a law enforcement officer. Even if we manage to get out of here, we could still be affected by their stupidity.

 

As to the scenery, we are in the "pretty" eastern half of the state - rolling native grass-covered hills with buffalo, cattle and a few elk. The western half of the state is what people imagine when they think of flat Kansas.

I lived in eastern Kansas too. My grandparents lived in Wichita, so I saw western Kansas. We always drove through the flint hills. Now I live in Texas, and the politics is probably worse than Kansas. I don't follow politics, and I don't even know who are governor is right now. I just try to tune it all out, because it depresses me. Texas is a really dirty state compared to Kansas. Everybody is so concerned with their own freedoms that they trample on other people. Apparently people can carry concealed handguns. It is just ridiculous. You need to move to Hawaii. wink.png
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^ I guess Texas is good too. There is some pretty scenery like the Big Bend National Park. It's almost as pretty as Kansas sometimes. wink.png

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Sorry to get off-topic. sad.png I can see merit to everybody's viewpoints. I don't know what is the best decision.

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So sorry to hear this. I have no issue with people who go to church for social reasons. Every circumstance is different. We have to do what we have to do to survive. I just hope it doesn't ruin your sanity or your husband's... or your kids'.

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Hi Daffodil. Two thoughts. First I would be careful. Doctrine of any kind can have a subtle way of infiltrating your thoughts without you being aware of it.

 

My second thought, about your husband needing to get clients etc. If christianity/christians used you like a pawn to join their death cult, I see no reason why you can't use them for your own purposes. 

 

It's a sticky situation to be in, but if I were you, since it is your husband who wants to further his career, let him go to church while you and the kids stay home. 

 

Good luck!

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