Daffodil Posted February 11, 2016 Author Share Posted February 11, 2016 I still don't get then why you're going this. You said it's so you, or your husband can answer the question "where do you go to church"? If that's the case, who cares if you're a hypocrite? You're kind of a hypocrite anyway going to church simply to put on airs. Unless she's not. Being a hypocrite about going back to church that is. Wouldn't be the first person to go back couched in some story in an attempt to smooth the edges. mwc Nope, definitely not. If I were returning to that mindset, I would just stop posting altogether on this site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffodil Posted February 11, 2016 Author Share Posted February 11, 2016 That really sucks. I haven't read the entire thread so apologies if this has been said already, but could you perhaps be church hoppers and go along to one church for a while, then try out a different one and so on and so forth? That way you'd never have to get too involved and hopefully the children wouldn't make too many connections there? Or one of you could go one week and the other stay at home with the kids and alternate? I have no interest in checking out other churches. We're going to be Sunday morning bench warmers and that is all. I'm going to take my kids' experiences in Sunday school and use them for teachable moments. Hopefully they'll be even stronger freethinkers for it, able to analyze differing views more effectively. My daughter already thinks it's a load of hooey, so I think she'll be fine. My son is more gullible and really needs the extra help to discern reality from fairy stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Nope, definitely not. If I were returning to that mindset, I would just stop posting altogether on this site. Okay. Just a guess given what others have done. Personally, I wouldn't go to church for any sort of business or social reasons beyond the odd wedding or funeral but I figure it's your life and you should know how to run it. Why we're sitting here debating it for page after page is kind of beyond me. If it were me I would have just went and not opened it up to idiots like me to toss in my two cents . mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilith666 Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Daffodil, in response to your post about survival: Yes, for gay people it was/is about that. But if we all ran and hid just to survive, where would anybody be? It takes standing up to jerks to make change happen. I realize as I'm typing this that I may be a bit of a hypocrite, as I'm not out to my parents yet about being gay, and won't tell them until I'm on my own. That's a survival tactic. But I will tell them when I can afford it, as hiding a huge part of my life from them - censoring my Facebook posts and anything I might casually say - isn't worth it in the long term. I was pissed until you explained that your and your husband's bosses may find reasons to fire you for not going to church. But could you bring a lawsuit against them? Help stop the cycle of discrimination and Jesus culture? When someone leads, other people tend to follow; most don't want to do anything until someone steps up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Do not fucking tithe! I'll write you a strongly worded PM if I hear that crap 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffodil Posted February 12, 2016 Author Share Posted February 12, 2016 Do not fucking tithe! I'll write you a strongly worded PM if I hear that crap Haha, I already said we agreed we would not give a single penny. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffodil Posted February 12, 2016 Author Share Posted February 12, 2016 Daffodil, in response to your post about survival: Yes, for gay people it was/is about that. But if we all ran and hid just to survive, where would anybody be? It takes standing up to jerks to make change happen. I realize as I'm typing this that I may be a bit of a hypocrite, as I'm not out to my parents yet about being gay, and won't tell them until I'm on my own. That's a survival tactic. But I will tell them when I can afford it, as hiding a huge part of my life from them - censoring my Facebook posts and anything I might casually say - isn't worth it in the long term. I was pissed until you explained that your and your husband's bosses may find reasons to fire you for not going to church. But could you bring a lawsuit against them? Help stop the cycle of discrimination and Jesus culture? When someone leads, other people tend to follow; most don't want to do anything until someone steps up. This is really about how my husband feels and I'm just trying to justify my support of him. I really really really really do not want to do this, but marriage is all about give and take and compromise. He's not in danger of losing his job - that happened to Neil Carter. It's moving forward that could be thwarted. His job situation is more complicated than I'm letting on and I don't want to divulge too much. It goes from being just a job you get hired for to something far more political. He thinks he needs this connection to church people while I think, "Screw 'em! If they don't like it, they can go to the hell they believe in so strongly!" If this was a fundy church, I would refuse to go or let the kids go, but it is a really mild evangelical church, so I'm less bothered by it. I didn't realize this would get people so riled up! I'm beginning to regret having brought it up. I appreciate all the thoughts and suggestions, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangitbobby83 Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Depending on the UU church, it might not be that bad. My wife and I are going to one and over half the church is either atheist or agnostic. Though I do know one church that was mostly pagan too, so I suppose its the area we are in. We don't go to any services that are overtly religious. The minister sends out the messages for the month and we choose to go to the ones that aren't that religious. So it might not be that bad for you, hopefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenaissanceWoman Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 You mentioned that he could retire in 2018. I would suggest that you go once a quarter = 4 times a year. That's about 10 times until he retires. As someone else said, it truly does not take much to keep up appearances. Why exactly do the kids have to go along? Even if they are not getting anything from it theologically, they are making little friends. (Yes, we know they are not real "friends", but with kids, it feels like friends to them.) If you attend too much, they will be making little bonds. I am still dealing with sadness over broken bonds from my daughter's time in church, and it has been several years now for her. She occasionally mentions those kids, and that she misses them. On some level, she feels like we kind of jerked her around. Playing a game with this for your husband's career is fine by me. I get it. But playing around with the kids is another matter. I'd say minimize minimize minimize. Attend as infrequently as possible (like I suggested, once a quarter), and/or find another place for the kids to hang out for two hours on the days you and hubby attend. Or have you attend alone one month, and hubby alone the next month, then all of you together one month. Keeping up appearances truly does not require too much. Another idea: Instead of attending so many services, have hubby volunteer with the men's group social stuff, their annual cookout or whatever they do. (No men's bible studies, however!) That way he gets face time, looks like he is involved, makes connections, and no one will really notice or complain that you don't attend services because he is involved in other ways. I don't know. Just trying to find ways to keep the kids out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miamia Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 You have one life and precious children. Don't live it on your knees in service to social pressure. Rebel, rebel, rebel. Your children may indeed come out alright even if they went to church twice a week for many years but it would be better for them to see you stand up and say no. Giving in is a detrimental habit. You must fight. Don't let anyone else put their mark on you or them. You will be glad you didn't. The real issue for your children will be not whether or not they can think freely, and logically pick apart the teachings of the church, but how entangled they are in the social aspect of it. If they go, they may bond with the people. Regardless of what they know to be true, leaving that will be hard for them as well. because socializing and bonding gives you warm fuzzy feelings. And the things associated with the people they bond with will stick as well, it won't be erased after leaving. I guess some of that depends on their age, their personality, and how much you tell them. Are you going to tell them that you are only going for social reasons and that it's a good place to learn moral lessons, but not to be taken seriously? Will they understand? You are the window through which they see the world. Do you really want them learning about even seemingly innocuous untruths at a mild church while you are there with them, appearing, for all intents and purposes, to accept it and believe it too? How will you respond to their questions on your way home in the car? I'm sure you have considered all of this,as an intelligent and responsible adult, I'm just responding as the veritable devil on your shoulder, repeating it once more, possibly from a different perspective. Religion, however mild, is not innocuous. It is a drug of society. It can evolve into a terrible and monstrous influence. Regardless of the overwhelming social pressure to partake, you must say no. Drugs should be learned of in books, for educational purposes only. Do you want to bring your children to a building intended for the sole purpose of popping that pill and celebrating about it? They will watch everyone around them partake. That is an enormous amount of social pressure. Is it worth the consequences that may come? Do you want to be a slave to it, even after realizing that it's a trap? I understand that this is going to be a horribly unpopular comparison, but I am not stating it for shock value. I can only advise based on my experiences and understanding. In my experience, it is really that gravely serious. Complacency is a fate worse than death. Rage against the dying of the light, and all that jazz. In the end none of it will have mattered to anyone but you in this moment. Carpe diem, etc. YOLO, as far as we know. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burny Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 I simply don't understand why you would give up 1/7 of every week and a full HALF of every weekend wasting time warming a pew listening to what you know is pure poppycock just for the sake of a few dollars. And subjecting your kids to it. I know that sounds harsh but you only get ONE LIFE. Don't waste another second of it on false teachers and pure fantasy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Your plan is sound. Go a few times, don't pay, protect kids, get business, avoid headache of explaining beliefs ... Now, what about Facebook? You're gonna get friends. Please post all the stupid stuff here please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilith666 Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Daffodil: You may regret bringing it up, but as long as you keep posting, I'll keep arguing I'm that kind of a person. You're going back to church because of how your husband feels? Why? His feelings are his problem, not yours. This is an honest question, I'm not trying to be a pain, I just don't understand why someone else's emotions should determine your behavior. Kind of like how you don't understand how that level-headed friend of yours in the other thread could get drawn back into Catholicism. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 You're going back to church because of how your husband feels? Why? His feelings are his problem, not yours. Hi Lilith, a thought: people do things for their partners' feelings, for the sake of the marriage/partnership. And sometimes it's fine. Sometimes the "things" turn out to be too many, or too little reciprocated. And then they need to tell the partner about this, possibly to say, "I can't do that anymore." But it doesn't sound as though Daffodil is at this "I can't do that anymore" stage yet. Well, what do I know. I feel for you guys. I continued to go to mass years after ceasing to believe, though I had stopped going to confession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffodil Posted February 12, 2016 Author Share Posted February 12, 2016 You guys are killing me! I'm trying to be supportive of my husband and I really don't want anymore arguments with him. I told him I will not go every single Sunday and we missed one Sunday because HE didn't get enough sleep the night before. One other problem is that the kids are already very attached to brother/sister friends that go there, though neither of them seem to get anything out of Sunday school when I ask them about it. We're already looking at issues arising as my daughter wants to attend an overnighter at the church with her class, which she did once before when we were still active, and she fussed when I told her no. She'll be moving to the middle school class next year and I'm more afraid of that and the discussions that will occur there than what she's getting now. Ugh, this is getting into husband-wife territory and will shortly be way off topic. He's already getting progressively more frustrated with me because I don't completely support his career aspirations. He thinks he only has one route to take - the political one - and I see the moral/social compromises that entails and am unwilling to go there. He's an honest man, a man who says what he means and means what he says, which is one of the big reasons I married him, but he has always been able to see the gray areas better than me, a very black-and-white thinker. Joining fraternal organizations for the sole purpose of gaining contacts does not bother him, but for me it means "using" people and being disingenuous. He has always said I don't have to join with him (he knows he will never make a stiletto-heeled, dress-wearing, cocktail-serving, lunches-with-the-ladies type of political wife out of me), but he's finding other ways to draw me in. He even said I don't have to go to church with him, but that it would be really awkward if I didn't. I don't want to be the reason he doesn't move ahead, but I really don't want him to move ahead in the direction he is going. This is a marital issue at its heart and I'm looking at more struggles in the next two years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilith666 Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Okay... Just asking. Looks like we differ on the sacrifices we're willing to make. Hope/glad it works out for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted February 12, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted February 12, 2016 He sounds very manipulative. Politics would be the obvious choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffodil Posted February 12, 2016 Author Share Posted February 12, 2016 He's not very manipulative. That's what's so frustrating! As you move up the ladder, it becomes more and more political and you have to "play the game". He doesn't want to play the game, but he doesn't see any choice in the matter. He's always been a cop and does not see any other career option for himself, despite how much I encourage him to expand his horizons. If I had a high income career, we would have more options. He could just retire and find something else to do and we would live off my income. One of his friends did that and is very happy. Sadly, that is not an option for us. I'm an optimist and believe that we'll figure something out and make it work, but he just can't see it. He either stays where he is and has to work under people that he hates or he tries to move up himself. This is where we're at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Not all of us have the privilege to live in an urban area. Small towns can decimate your career if you don't play the game. It's simply safer to be "out" in the city. I am asked about my religion all the time, and I reply "I was raised Presbyterian" which is true and that seems to satisfy them. To do otherwise means complete career derailment. Do what you have to do until 2018 when you can retire, then move to a place where you can be yourselves. Hang in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffodil Posted February 13, 2016 Author Share Posted February 13, 2016 Update: We had dinner alone together as the kids are spending the night at a friend's house. I brought the church/career thing up again and he was really relaxed about it, though he was a little more revealing about his reasons for going to church. I'm starting to think he was presenting it in a way he thought would be more palatable to me, but now he says that going to church is 20-30% career and 70-80% personal. He really wants church in his life and is not ready to let it go. He brought up the 5 Social Questions again and said that it is just expected in this country that you go to church and that's where all his good relationships are. I don't know what to think anymore. He even says he's not that concerned with his career and is ok with whereever it goes. WTH? I don't know what "relationships" he's even referring to because we don't socialize with any of them outside of church. I asked him if we lived in a place where church had no impact on his career, would he still want to go, and his response was, "What magical place is that?" This doesn't really change anything I said earlier other than to make me realize that he is in a transitional time in his career, he's got mixed feelings about it, he feels stuck, and somehow church makes him feel a little better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Update: We had dinner alone together as the kids are spending the night at a friend's house. I brought the church/career thing up again and he was really relaxed about it, though he was a little more revealing about his reasons for going to church. I'm starting to think he was presenting it in a way he thought would be more palatable to me, but now he says that going to church is 20-30% career and 70-80% personal. He really wants church in his life and is not ready to let it go. He brought up the 5 Social Questions again and said that it is just expected in this country that you go to church and that's where all his good relationships are. I don't know what to think anymore. He even says he's not that concerned with his career and is ok with whereever it goes. WTH? I don't know what "relationships" he's even referring to because we don't socialize with any of them outside of church. I asked him if we lived in a place where church had no impact on his career, would he still want to go, and his response was, "What magical place is that?" This doesn't really change anything I said earlier other than to make me realize that he is in a transitional time in his career, he's got mixed feelings about it, he feels stuck, and somehow church makes him feel a little better. Your husband is being a dick. He's only 20% worried about his career? I'm 100% worried about mine. This isn't a real danger if he feels like that. Tell him he can go to church alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
older Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 I heartily disagree with Orbit's diagnosis. Hubby is facing retirement and a big change in life. A person's career is a big part of one's self-identity and there are all sorts of thoughts going through his mind right now. He's looking back wondering if what he did was of any use, and looking forward trying to figure out the next step. Having gone through this myself, I can attest that there are lots of things in his mind right now, the least of which might be some fears and uncertainty about what is going to happen next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffodil Posted February 13, 2016 Author Share Posted February 13, 2016 Update: We had dinner alone together as the kids are spending the night at a friend's house. I brought the church/career thing up again and he was really relaxed about it, though he was a little more revealing about his reasons for going to church. I'm starting to think he was presenting it in a way he thought would be more palatable to me, but now he says that going to church is 20-30% career and 70-80% personal. He really wants church in his life and is not ready to let it go. He brought up the 5 Social Questions again and said that it is just expected in this country that you go to church and that's where all his good relationships are. I don't know what to think anymore. He even says he's not that concerned with his career and is ok with whereever it goes. WTH? I don't know what "relationships" he's even referring to because we don't socialize with any of them outside of church. I asked him if we lived in a place where church had no impact on his career, would he still want to go, and his response was, "What magical place is that?" This doesn't really change anything I said earlier other than to make me realize that he is in a transitional time in his career, he's got mixed feelings about it, he feels stuck, and somehow church makes him feel a little better. Your husband is being a dick. He's only 20% worried about his career? I'm 100% worried about mine. This isn't a real danger if he feels like that. Tell him he can go to church alone. Believe me, he is 100% concerned about his career. He just said that 20-30% of his reasons for going to church were career-related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffodil Posted February 13, 2016 Author Share Posted February 13, 2016 I heartily disagree with Orbit's diagnosis. Hubby is facing retirement and a big change in life. A person's career is a big part of one's self-identity and there are all sorts of thoughts going through his mind right now. He's looking back wondering if what he did was of any use, and looking forward trying to figure out the next step. Having gone through this myself, I can attest that there are lots of things in his mind right now, the least of which might be some fears and uncertainty about what is going to happen next. I think that's why he keeps wavering between "everything sucks" and "eh, it's ok". Drives me a little crazy at times, but I know he's under a lot of pressure as the sole breadwinner. I just wish church didn't have to be a factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 You said he wants to get into politics. Does he want to be on the city council? Is he thinking of running for DA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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