JohninRI Posted March 12, 2016 Posted March 12, 2016 When I started my first topic I had no idea what to expect from you, that's why I mentioned fun because I thought that you were going to be much more hostile than you actually were. I thank you all for being so accommodating and allowing me to get it all out before shutting it down. I said what I had to say and I'll leave you to yourselves. I just have one more thing to add. I can't say that I didn't ask for the Revelation because my wife and I made a promise to God that we would spend the rest of our life doing whatever He asked of us. We did this because of the wonderful charmed life we both had been given, up to that point. You wouldn't even believe how we were answered within days. The point is that we have actual proof of the existence of God, just by what has happened to us since that vow, but probably more so by what has not happened to us. Anyway, thank you again for allowing me to get this out so that the Remnant that sees it can let it begin to churn in their subconscious minds. There is still a lot of time left and you never know what's going to happen. JohninRI
pratt Posted March 12, 2016 Posted March 12, 2016 yup, we would not believe without proof,,,, the point that you claimed you have actual proof of existence of god just like anyone in mental institute who claims so,,,,
qadeshet Posted March 12, 2016 Posted March 12, 2016 The point is that we have actual proof of the existence of God, just by what has happened to us since that vow, but probably more so by what has not happened to us. Followers of Zeus, Osiris, and many other "gods" have made the same claim. We don't care about your personal experiences, any more than you care about those of Muslims, Hindus, or Buddhists. Even if it could be proven that some "god" exists, who intends on allowing billions of his children to suffer eternal punishment, then I would only hate such a cruel and vengeful tyrant.
♦ ficino ♦ Posted March 12, 2016 Posted March 12, 2016 The ancient Athenian democracy would only allow a new cult, new religious shrine, new ritual to be established if its promoters could prove that their claims about the god/s were true. They had lots of them.
JohninRI Posted March 12, 2016 Author Posted March 12, 2016 I won't allow myself to be tortured with evidence and proof, because everything is evidence and nothing is proof. That is why juries have more than one juror.
Shinzon Posted March 12, 2016 Posted March 12, 2016 I won't allow myself to be tortured with evidence and proof, because everything is evidence and nothing is proof. That is why juries have more than one juror.did you get that from a hallmark card or a badly written fortune cookie?
Super Moderator florduh Posted March 12, 2016 Super Moderator Posted March 12, 2016 There is no "remnant." You suffer from delusions. You have slipped the bonds of reality. Get help, please.
qadeshet Posted March 12, 2016 Posted March 12, 2016 There is no "remnant." You suffer from delusions. You have slipped the bonds of reality. Get help, please. I would argue that all believers, in all religions, live in a false and delusional reality. They should all get help. 1
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 12, 2016 Super Moderator Posted March 12, 2016 I won't allow myself to be tortured with evidence and proof, because everything is evidence and nothing is proof. That is why juries have more than one juror. Often "evidence" fails to support the claim. That is why jurors vote "not guilty" instead of "innocent". The reason people don't believe in gods is that the claim of existence simply is not supported by the evidence.
disillusioned Posted March 12, 2016 Posted March 12, 2016 I won't allow myself to be tortured with evidence and proof, because everything is evidence and nothing is proof. That is why juries have more than one juror. And yet, this leaves us wondering why on earth we should believe anything that you say. I'll repeat my challenge from the other thread: pick one of your claims, and provide me with one reason that I should think it is true.
JohninRI Posted March 12, 2016 Author Posted March 12, 2016 And yet, this leaves us wondering why on earth we should believe anything that you say. I'll repeat my challenge from the other thread: pick one of your claims, and provide me with one reason that I should think it is true. What proof can you supply to prove to me that the sun doesn't revolve around the Earth? I don't "believe" that anything can be proven. There will always be someone, or something that will not "believe." And when I started the thread I started with a theory about the Remnant. And then I said that I had a revelation - a vision. How can a vision be proven? All that can come from that is an agreement that something is possible and plausible, or not. But it can never be proven. Not even if it all came to pass, because someone, or everyone may not "believe" that it all wasn't just coincidence.
sdelsolray Posted March 12, 2016 Posted March 12, 2016 We already know that the rigorous definition of the word "proof" only applies to certain things, math, formal logic and alcohol. It's good that you understand this particular use of the word "proof". Of course, the word "proof" is often used as a synonym for the word "evidence". You are using both definitions of the word in your post. Let's deconstruct your post: And yet, this leaves us wondering why on earth we should believe anything that you say. I'll repeat my challenge from the other thread: pick one of your claims, and provide me with one reason that I should think it is true. What proof can you supply to prove to me that the sun doesn't revolve around the Earth? Your use here is to use the term "proof" as a synonym for evidence. Simple physics (verified by evidence) reveals that the Earth revolves around the sun and the Sun revolves around the Earth. More accurately, each revolves (i.e., orbits) around a common point between the center of each, that point being inside the sun nearer its surface. I'll leave it to you to do the research yourself. ... I don't "believe" that anything can be proven. ... Then you would be wrong. Certain mathematical expressions and equations and many formal and modal logical arguments can be "proven". Here, of course, the more rigorous definition of the term "proof" is being used. ...There will always be someone, or something that will not "believe." ... So? Whether someone believes something or not is not evidence of whether that something is true or false, or more likely true or false. To "believe" requires a sentient thinker. "Something" is not capable of believing. ... And when I started the thread I started with a theory about the Remnant. ... You have no theory (as the term "theory" is defined). You have made numerous mere assertions. That is all you have done. ... And then I said that I had a revelation - a vision. How can a vision be proven? ... Please define the term "vision". Is a "vision" a mathematical formula, a formal logical argument or a brand of vodka? If not, then your "vision" cannot be proven. However, note how you are using the rigorous definition of the term "proven" here. From an evidentiary standpoint, your vision is likely due to certain chemical processes in your brain. That can be measured. You report the content of your vision. That is also evidence. However, the interferences from that evidence can easily lead to different conclusions. For example, some may conclude your vision is a revelation from some unseen sky fairy. Others will conclude that your vision is evidence of delusional thinking and likely the result of mental illness. ... All that can come from that is an agreement that something is possible and plausible, or not. But it can never be proven. ... Correct. ... Not even if it all came to pass, because someone, or everyone may not "believe" that it all wasn't just coincidence. Again, whether or what someone believes is not relevant to what exists in reality. 1
midniterider Posted March 12, 2016 Posted March 12, 2016 I won't allow myself to be tortured with evidence and proof... Why do you think God is giving you this information as opposed to just making it up yourself? Jeff said that Thor is angry with you. Why don't you believe him as opposed to believing your own self-invented fairy tale? No evidence or proof is needed for either Yahvah or Thor, right? I think the bottom line is you believe your fairy tale because you are emotionally attached to that idea. Certainly not because of evidence or proof. Because, like you said, evidence and proof dont mean shit. Why do you trouble yourself with bible scripture? Evidence and proof are null and void. Only your imagination is important, so throw your bible away. No need to back up your assertions, right? The bible, like other literature is null and void. 1
midniterider Posted March 12, 2016 Posted March 12, 2016 What proof can you supply to prove to me that the sun doesn't revolve around the Earth? I don't "believe" that anything can be proven. Astronomical observation. We can see the earth and other planets and the sun. We can observe their positions in the sky relative to us over time. From that we can and do make accurate predictions where they will be at any given time. From observation we can tell that earth orbits the sun. I think your underlying premise is "Nothing can be proven or disproven, therefore it is acceptable to believe my deeply held supernatural belief." It's illogical. (The following is a hypothetical. Do not try this in real life) I feel that stepping out in front of a moving car is quite safe. Do you believe me? You can't prove that it isn't safe becauuuuuse ... nothing can be proven. And dont trouble me with the evidence of bodies of mangled pedestrians...that doesnt mean shit. Right? No?
Mike D Posted March 12, 2016 Posted March 12, 2016 The point is that we have actual proof of the existence of God, just by what has happened to us since that vow, but probably more so by what has not happened to us. Which god proved his existence? Was it Vishnu? Fu Xing? Jesus? Allah? Ra? Zeus? Osiris? Shiva? Lucifer? Bob? Jehova? Others? How did you know his identity?
sdelsolray Posted March 12, 2016 Posted March 12, 2016 ... The point is that we have actual proof of the existence of God, just by what has happened to us since that vow, but probably more so by what has not happened to us. ... I actually thought you understood what the words "proof" and "evidence" mean. From your statement above, it appears that you do not.
Super Moderator florduh Posted March 12, 2016 Super Moderator Posted March 12, 2016 What proof can you supply to prove to me that the sun doesn't revolve around the Earth? Are you shitting me? Until this moment I never suspected that you're simply a moron.
disillusioned Posted March 13, 2016 Posted March 13, 2016 And yet, this leaves us wondering why on earth we should believe anything that you say. I'll repeat my challenge from the other thread: pick one of your claims, and provide me with one reason that I should think it is true. What proof can you supply to prove to me that the sun doesn't revolve around the Earth? I don't "believe" that anything can be proven. There will always be someone, or something that will not "believe." And when I started the thread I started with a theory about the Remnant. And then I said that I had a revelation - a vision. How can a vision be proven? All that can come from that is an agreement that something is possible and plausible, or not. But it can never be proven. Not even if it all came to pass, because someone, or everyone may not "believe" that it all wasn't just coincidence. John, you seem to be very confused. I did not ask you for proof of anything. As sdelsolray has so eloquently put it, proof is for mathematics, formal logic and alcohol. I understand this at least as well as most as I have a degree in mathematics and physics, a great interest in logic, and a deep fondness for alcohol. But this is beside the point. I asked you to pick one of you many absurd claims and give me one reason why I should believe it. You have yet to do this. I understand that you've had some sort of a vision. You seem to understand that this is not convincing. Surely you can appreciate that millions of people all over the world have visions, hallucinations and dreams every day, and that most of them have no bearing on reality. So my challenge remains. Again, I'm not asking for proof. Just give me whatever you have. As for your question regarding the orbit of the Earth, I'm choosing to assume that you were being facetious. If you are seriously in doubt as to the order of the heavens then there are a number of members here (including myself) who can set you straight. Or you could just google it. Whatever.
Astreja Posted March 13, 2016 Posted March 13, 2016 The point is that we have actual proof of the existence of God... Unacceptable, John. At this point the only evidence I will accept is a one-on-one physical encounter with your alleged god. I reject the testimonies of you and all other mortals, and I reject all scriptures. Unless you are capable of facilitating an actual meeting in the physical world with your god, you have literally nothing that I want.
rjn Posted March 13, 2016 Posted March 13, 2016 Stop comparing Thor with YHWH. The former, a bulky red-hair who likes a good drink or two, is a lot more probable than the latter. And, I happen to think he's a nice guy, save for that one time when I was sleeping in my tent a thousand meters above sea level and he saw it fit to wake me up with one hell of a thunderstorm. That was pretty shitty of him. 2
BeauCat Posted March 13, 2016 Posted March 13, 2016 Yeah...ten years ago I would have told you I had proof too. Here I am at Ex-Christian.net! Maybe we'll see a few tweaks in your user profile in ten years.
JohninRI Posted March 13, 2016 Author Posted March 13, 2016 What proof can you supply to prove to me that the sun doesn't revolve around the Earth? I don't "believe" that anything can be proven. There will always be someone, or something that will not "believe." And when I started the thread I started with a theory about the Remnant. And then I said that I had a revelation - a vision. How can a vision be proven? All that can come from that is an agreement that something is possible and plausible, or not. But it can never be proven. Not even if it all came to pass, because someone, or everyone may not "believe" that it all wasn't just coincidence. Again, I say that I don't "believe" that anything can be proven. Everything that we think, feel, taste, smell and hear is based upon our own POV. The color green that I see may not be the color green that you see or anyone else, but through conditioning, when I see that particular color I think green. Can I prove that that color is green? No. Especially to someone who is color blind, or just plain blind. Belief is all that we have. Nothing can be proven because everything is only observed from our own point of view. We - the whole human race - are only in our infancy in our existence. And what an infant believes and can prove, is very different from what a toddler believes, or a teen, or an adult. Very shortly mankind is going to reach a new stage in our development and what we thought we could prove may turn out to be very different from a different POV. God's religion is science, and there is science that we think we know and then there is science that we are about to begin to learn. Christianity has existed - as it eventually emerged - basically unchanged for 2000 years. Just suppose that we got it all wrong and Yahvah wanted to begin to address that problem with the revelations He gave to me. I have no proof of what I say. But maybe, just maybe, He wants us to start thinking about it. Just as all of you have studied and rejected Christianity as it is being practiced for 2000 years, for most of the world Christianity is a proven fact. But not for you! You "believe" otherwise.
WarriorPoet Posted March 13, 2016 Posted March 13, 2016 Again, I say that I don't "believe" that anything can be proven. Everything that we think, feel, taste, smell and hear is based upon our own POV. The color green that I see may not be the color green that you see or anyone else, but through conditioning, when I see that particular color I think green. Can I prove that that color is green? No. Especially to someone who is color blind, or just plain blind. In a way, you could say that color doesn't exist. What we call "green" is just a way that our brains interpret a certain wavelength of visible light. It may very well look different to me than it does to you. Wavelengths can be measured, personal perception in this context can not. "Can I prove that color is green?" is a completely nonsensical question. We - the whole human race - are only in our infancy in our existence. And what an infant believes and can prove, is very different from what a toddler believes, or a teen, or an adult. Very shortly mankind is going to reach a new stage in our development and what we thought we could prove may turn out to be very different from a different POV. I would submit that we are at least in our adolescence. We've been to the moon, we landed a spacecraft on a comet. We can make machines that perform billions of functions in a second. Of course our future is going to produce new breakthroughs, some that we can't even imagine today, and some things that we think we know could turn out to be wrong. There are things that can be proven though, things that will never be wrong. I direct your attention to the field of mathematics. Just as all of you have studied and rejected Christianity as it is being practiced for 2000 years, for most of the world Christianity is a proven fact. No it is not. If it were, no christian would have to say that they have faith. You "believe" otherwise. Wrong again, at least in my case and that of many others. We don't believe that christianity is wrong, we just don't believe that it is correct. There is a world of difference between those two positions. 1
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