RankStranger Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 "A Brief History of Time". It's an easy read Great book, but the fact that you call it an easy read makes me feel rather thick. I struggled with parts of it, rereading and rereading to try and understand the points. I tend to struggle with physics though so... Well, it's not exactly a romance novel... it does get pretty sticky when he starts talking about quantum mechanics, with different flavors and colors of quarks and such - I had to skim a little there. My point was that it isn't a textbook. I really enjoyed his history about our modern view of the universe and the reasoning behindd the 'big bang' theory. It makes sense, and is based on honest inquiry... unlike some OTHER views of the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosa Mystica Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 I think the problem lies in that I was taught that it wasn't supposed to make sense. That God is higher than reality and logic and we puny humans cannot understand him so therefore he is under no obligation to make sense. And in fact that he specifically set it up for it NOT to make sense so that we would have to believe in him by faith, and not rely on our own devices. I know it sounds nuts, but that is seriously what I believed and what all my friends still believe (and I assume what many Christians believe) It's creepy how air tight the Christian idea of the universe is once you're inside, because it's not based on logic and tells you that you can't trust your brain or heart, and that the only truth is somewhere outside yourself and that you must constantly doublecheck every action against the Bible to make sure it's right. God really is a scary bastard in that worldview. Oh my gosh, I was taught a *very* similar thing. That understanding is NOT a prerequisite, only belief is. It is very, very frightening indeed. I think I agree with the poster(s) who said that if you do go back, it should be based on love of your former beliefs and not fear. How that is to be achieved, I really don't know. You sound intelligent to me, though. I think I'll you figure something out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khdetw Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 one of my fundie evangelical buddies, as usual, had to strike up a big analytical debate with me about the Bible. Basically attacking all my views and telling me I was letting emotionalism get in the way of Truth. Hi monsterfeets, Ah - the disgustingly familiar Truth argument. Absolute Truth - only our group has it. The sure sign of a cult. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black :-D Isn't it ironic that your friend is accusing ~you~ of emotionalism?! When he's the one immersed in a cult that preys on peoples emotions and fears. I'm glad to see from subsequent posts that you recognize that. I'm afraid there's no hope for you, in terms of being re-saved. You have started to think logically - the kiss of death to Xian fundamentalism. Some of the greatest ironies I've ever seen come from Xians trying to reconvert me. For example, I recently had one say: > there has been no greater detriment to > serious thought than the attempts at erasing absolutes. referring to the "scourge of postmodernism" (their latest demon, it would appear). Speaking of detriments to serious thought ... um, isn't that why many of us, perhaps including you, left the cult in the first place? -- Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamandham Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 I think the problem lies in that I was taught that it wasn't supposed to make sense. That God is higher than reality and logic and we puny humans cannot understand him so therefore he is under no obligation to make sense. Think about it. If god is a contradiction, then it is not possible for anyone to know anything about him, including what he does or doesn't want. To claim that we can know anything at all about god implies that he is in fact comprehensible. Anyone who tells you he is incomprehensible and then turns around and tells you comprehensible things about him is obviously full of crap. And in fact that he specifically set it up for it NOT to make sense so that we would have to believe in him by faith, and not rely on our own devices. I know it sounds nuts, It sounds nuts because it is nuts. If you condition your brain to really accept this nonsense, you will be removed from the gene pool shortly thereafter. No-one actually believes horse shit like that. It's coded language for "shut up or be ostracised". Even worse, almost no-one in the Bible believed by faith. Virtually all the legendary figures and heroes had direct communication with god. Who wouldn't believe in that case? These fictional characters highlight the pinnacle of hypocrisy by espousing faith, when their own belief was purported to be based on direct observation! Even Peter is said to have denied Jesus, and he knew him personally. This is classic brain washing. Christains laugh/feel sorry for people like the Mooneys, when they themselves have been subjected to the same psychological assault. "my absurd delusion is real because I'm the one who believes it" It's creepy how air tight the Christian idea of the universe is once you're inside, because it's not based on logic and tells you that you can't trust your brain or heart, It's certainly suffocating, but not quite air-tight. Some of us have escaped. If you find yourself drawn back, read that horrific piece of shit known as the Bible in it's entirety a couple of times. Reading that sociopathic book is the best cure for the cultic disease known as Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthenSun Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 I think it will be more about me learning to find an entirely new way to think about things. I believe you are right, monsterfeets. If god really is, then god is a being of unconditional love. The only expectation of mere humans can be that we love each other more and hate less. Whether you return to the church or not, everything will work out ok if you can try to live by this guide. And seek out others who share this view, in or out of church. If "God is love", and you are filled with love, how could he possibly abandon you, no matter what? Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sage Nabooru Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Atheists like myself are treated with far more open hostility by American christians than are American citizens of other opposing religious beliefs. American Christians, yes. In Europe, it's a different story, although in South Korea the Christians are even worse. (I've mentioned here many a time of the hundreds of acts of arson, vandalism, theft, and open prejudice/lies South Korean Christians level against S-Korean Buddhists and temples and how the Christian-controlled government more often than not turns a deaf ear.) In South Korea, the Christians associate Buddhism with the Japanese; that is why many S-Koreans are eager to protest it, even though it has a longer history in Korea than in Japan. (S-Korean-Japanese relations aren't exactly warm.) In the US, I think the problem is that people of all faiths associate atheism with Madeline Murray O'Hair, who wasn't exactly, um, tactful, or even that intelligent - if she was in fact smart, she hid it very well under a facade that screamed "Fuck you! I'm getting the hell out of here if you don't cut the crap!" at every interviewer that asked a difficult question. That was most Americans' first taste of atheism, and it didn't leave a very pretty impression. I think that's why there's a bigger feeling against it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponymic Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 But it's my irrational and emotional side that nags at me. It doesn't help that I fell into belief at a very rough spot in my life and it was a crutch that got me through some hard years. Really, when you think about it, it's the one truly impressive thing about Christians. They are masters at emotional manipulation. So much so that it can leave residual feelings for years on end because of the tampering they did. Sick, but impressive, how deep & lasting the emotional training goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 I think the problem lies in that I was taught that it wasn't supposed to make sense. That God is higher than reality and logic and we puny humans cannot understand him so therefore he is under no obligation to make sense. And in fact that he specifically set it up for it NOT to make sense so that we would have to believe in him by faith, and not rely on our own devices. I know it sounds nuts, but that is seriously what I believed and what all my friends still believe (and I assume what many Christians believe) It's creepy how air tight the Christian idea of the universe is once you're inside, because it's not based on logic and tells you that you can't trust your brain or heart, and that the only truth is somewhere outside yourself and that you must constantly doublecheck every action against the Bible to make sure it's right. God really is a scary bastard in that worldview. Oh my gosh, I was taught a *very* similar thing. That understanding is NOT a prerequisite, only belief is. It is very, very frightening indeed. I think I agree with the poster(s) who said that if you do go back, it should be based on love of your former beliefs and not fear. How that is to be achieved, I really don't know. You sound intelligent to me, though. I think I'll you figure something out. Same here... in fact, I still struggle with this argument even though it is an obvious manipulation. It does seem possible to me that God would want us to humble ourselves in that way. If God made it easy for everyone to believe, he wouldn't get honest devotees... he wouldn't get sincere conversion. In a sick and twisted way, of course... but maybe that is what God wants... for us to truly humble ourselves. I haven't really found anything to debunk that one entirely... any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamandham Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 ... but maybe that is what God wants... for us to truly humble ourselves. I haven't really found anything to debunk that one entirely... any ideas? I suppose the one debunking position is that god does not exist and thus doesn't want anything at all! ...prove me wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 I need some advice (and to just get this off of my chest). After my deciding to leave Christianity out of frustration with many things including the Church, Christians and the Hell doctrine I hadn't had any encounter with my church friends until 2 days ago. It had been about 4 months since I de-converted and one of my fundie evangelical buddies, as usual, had to strike up a big analytical debate with me about the Bible. Basically attacking all my views and telling me I was letting emotionalism get in the way of Truth. While this makes some kind of twisted sense coming from a Christian perspective (which I can understand having been Christian), it has infinitely confused me. Basically I've began to get nagging feelings to 'come back to Jesus' accompanied by fear of hell and guilt for abandoning God. I'm at a point where I almost believe again and I am really not sure what to do at all. It's incredibly frustrating. One one hand, I am terrified I am wrong. On the other hand, I am sad because I used to have that "imaginary friend" up in the sky on my side. And on yet another hand I am ANGRY with my friend for putting me in such a position. I respect his opinions and he knows me well enough to know my weak points. One voice tells me I was happier for breaking free. Another says "what if its true and reality has nothing to do with logic or feelings and you're screwed?". It's like, either way I go, I'm miserable and unsure. It's absolutely rediculous. Has anyone else had similar experiences of wanting to return to Christianity or suddenly experiencing doubts after a period of being sure you made the right choice? What did you do and how did it turn out? Think about this for awhile, and decide if this applies to you: People will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true. Given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Same here... in fact, I still struggle with this argument even though it is an obvious manipulation. It does seem possible to me that God would want us to humble ourselves in that way. If God made it easy for everyone to believe, he wouldn't get honest devotees... he wouldn't get sincere conversion. In a sick and twisted way, of course... but maybe that is what God wants... for us to truly humble ourselves. I haven't really found anything to debunk that one entirely... any ideas? I'm only humbled by truth, pandora. The only sincere conversion he'd get out of me were if he were true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 If God made it easy for everyone to believe, he wouldn't get honest devotees... he wouldn't get sincere conversion. Hmmm... I just keep thinking "Why?" to questions like that now. Sounds like a pretty insecure god to me for a start off. Has to test us to be sure he is truly loved. And as for us, if I want my husband to know that I love him, I need more than words, I have to show it. If I show him no evidence, in fact even cause him harm, hide myself from him, what grounds does he have for believing what I say is true when I say I love him? More than words are needed. It seems this doesn't apply to god, then, who wants us to believe even when he witholds evidence for his existence, and even worse, makes it contradictary and difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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