The Christian Bible Is Like A Map

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Red,

 

He's a drive by baby troll, nothing more.

Likely.  But I'm returning fire for the sake of the lurkers.

[Astreja]

Having any good discussion about Bible passages when unbelievers cannot argue correctly the content of the Bible is a lesson in futility. It simply cannot be done. God does not allow any person who has intentionally chosen to turn away from Him to understand the mysteries or universal knowledge of His Word.

 

I believe that your alleged god cannot allow or disallow anything, because it is 100% fictional.

 

Your "Map for True Believers" just leads you to parts of the Bible that you have already assimilated into your worldview.  It provides you with no insights that you don't already possess.  If you know you've done something wrong and feel the need to feel guilty about it, then the Bible chastises you.  If you're afraid of death, you get promises of a pretend eternal life.  If an unbeliever pwns you in an argument, suddenly the Bible is prophetic:  "...in the last days mockers shall come with mockery..."

 

Nope, all you've got is a choose-your-own-adventure book.

[humble]

Interesting! A number of your responses to my my post proves my point.

rjn: I italicized the words "intentionally chosen" because that is specifically what I meant. The relatively few people on this planet that are not aware of Jesus's death on the cross as payment for our sins will gain entrance to heaven.

A person jeopardizes salvation when they intentionally choose to turn away from, or disbelieve in God.

Does that mean that once turned away, a person can never return to God and be saved? Not at all. A person has the ability to turn to God up until the death of their natural body.

TABA: Not really sure where you're trying to go with the Prodigal Son parable. That parable contains a really simple concept.

[son grows to adult age, grabs all his stuff, flips his family off, and says something like "screw you, I don't need you, what'd you ever do for me? I'm outta here!"] (some ex-christians would be considered to be at this stage.)

[son eventually blows his cash and is tired of bad relationships and an address at the corner bar. With nowhere else to go, he decides to return home, expecting to be criticized for his bad choices and behavior.] Many people at this point, if they are still willing to believe in God, may feel that they could never be forgiven for turning away, or for whatever bad behavior they may have indulged. This misconception may keep them from even trying to turn back to God.

[The parable ends with the father surprising the son not with criticism, but with open arms, complete forgiveness and love for his son. The father throws a party and welcomes him back into the family. Total forgiveness. No bad feelings, no guilt, no shame. The son is restored to his original place as an heir.]

And that's what is offered and available to every person, whether currently a believer or non-believer.

 

------------------------

 

It's really disappointing that so many (maybe the majority?) of responses of non-believers are simply childish name-calling and labeling. If you have nothing intelligent or constructive to add, perhaps it might be better if you just kept silent. You do yourself and your fellow non-believers no favors by exposing your arrogance and ignorance. Besides, I'm not going to directly respond to you.

 

I know, you'll say that this statement shows my arrogance. But anyone that knows me personally would tell you otherwise. Slander posts just muddies the thread.

 

------------------------

 

violetbutterfly: Again, it is so important to understand the context correctly. There are 2 important points to make here.

 

1) The passage you quote (Deuteronomy 21:10-14) at face value is a pretty harsh statement about what seems to be the allowable treatment of women in those ancient times.

In today's societies, in nations that are run by democracies, this would be considered despicable treatment of a woman, would not be tolerated, and I wholeheartedly agree that it should never have been tolerated.

But even today, in most countries that are dictatorships, monarchies, theocracies, etc, women continue to have few rights. Stoning to death is still an acceptable punishment if a woman is found committing adultery in some countries (of course, men do not suffer that same punishment, which in itself is an outrage), particularly in the Middle East. These punishments are dictated by that country's primary religious belief (non-Christian). A despicable policy to be sure, but fact non the less.

 

2) Deuteronomy was originally written somewhere around 3500 years ago. I don't know the details of what would have been done with prisoners captured in a war or battle back then, but from what I have read, I presume they would normally have been killed or enslaved.

I believe that arranged marriages were the norm in that time. The directive of God allowing the captive woman to be taken in marriage likely would have spared her life or kept her from slavery. Perhaps not in our democratic society of today, but in their society the forced marriage may have been considered the best option available to a captive. I'm not really sure. I didn't live then, and there simply is not enough available information to offer us those details of their society.

Extrapolating our own cultural ideas, values, and morals is just not a workable solution in comparing our culture today to the cultures of old testament scripture.

 

Consider also that at that time in history, right or wrong, women might have been commonly considered property.

 

I'm not sure why you think that "sexual performance" would necessarily be the issue that the husband would not be pleased with his wife. What if she simply acted nasty or cold and silent to him all the time. Perhaps that would have been a good method for a captive wife to be turned free. He would not be allowed to sell her as a slave. God dictated that he would have to allow her to leave.

 

And just a quick fact about the status of women in the Christian Holy Bible: in the first book Genesis, regarding the creation of Adam and Eve, although Adam was created first, Eve was created as an equal human, but actually God's crowning achievement of all creation! Eve was the culmination of His perfect creation! This was the status of women in the world. This is what God intended.

 

------------------------

 

A couple of your responses indicated that there are former believers here that may have been deeply involved with your faith, or church, or studying the bible, but have now turned away.

I get that. Perfectly understandable.

The teaching in many of today's churches is poison. What Christianity has commonly become today, was warned against by the Apostle Paul. In one book, he warned against "divisions in the church". That's exactly what exists today. So many different Christian denominations or faiths: Catholic, Lutheran, Pentecostal, etc, with sub-groups within those faiths. Each one thinking that they have the right answer, and all the others have it wrong in some way.

None of the current Christian denominations even existed  through Jesus' time on earth. His teaching, which at that time was aimed at transforming the convoluted faith of the Jewish people, commonly became known as "The Way".

This was not a new faith or belief. It was a correction of the Jewish faith.

At that time some people embraced the refreshing truth that Jesus brought, and others such as existing church leaders and elders refused to give up their power, prestige, and control over the Jewish people.

 

Jesus' core teachings have survived to this day as the faith known as Christianity. (I do know that most of you are aware of this, whether you actually believe in it or not.)

But, there is a significant difference between true Christianity, and "Christian Culture".

In today's society, people most often experience Christian Culture. Sunday masses, weekly bible studies, boring hymns, organ music, stand-up/sit down/kneel over and over again, reciting dry scripture verses, and the list goes on.

Monotonous, boring, and rarely ever helping you to connect with God. This is the Religion of Christianity.

It's filled with rituals and rules, and it's precisely what Jesus came to correct in the Jewish faith 2000 years ago.

 

As many of you already know, the Christian Religion of today does not lead you to God. What it frequently does is try to control you. It sows guilt and shame, uncertainty, doubt, anger, frustration, and perhaps worst of all, apathy. Think of all the hypocritical and fallen church leaders and elders. Why does this happen?

 

For believers, we're told in church that all the solutions to life's troubles can be found in the Bible. "Stay in The Word", do bible studies, be more involved at church, memorize bible passages, join the choir.

"Going deeper in your faith" means intensely studying the bible, book-by-book, verse-by-verse. Really trying to figure it out and understand it. Join a men's or women's ministry. Go on retreats. Build that relationship with Jesus! Hallelujah, praise the Lord!

 

I'm guessing most of us have heard versions of this, if not experienced it firsthand. We're sold this barrel of snake oil as the way to salvation. To connect with God. To live a good life.

What a crock! Has doing this stuff actually helped anyone? I seriously doubt it.

Aren't pastors and priests and church elders the ones that recommend doing this stuff? How is all this religion working out for them?

 

It isn't. And we all know it, because some of it makes media headlines, and it's laid bare and exposed for the world to see.

We continue to have problems in our own lives, or we see it in other's lives and families.

My own experiences include loss of a business, being estranged from my daughters, considering a divorce, and on the edge of financial ruin, just to name a few.

 

So where does one go from here? It's hard to trust the church when nothing they recommend seems to work.

I could have chucked it all and become a staunch atheist like my ex-business partner, but his roller-coaster attitude between being angry and depressed just didn't appeal to me. Yes, he claimed to be happy, but we had been best friends for 8 years, and I knew him better than that.

 

Then I ran across a quote somewhere that made me think a bit deeper: "There is always a truth, whether you want to believe it or not."

 

Interesting. This really is an unbiased statement. It doesn't lead someone to a pre-conceived outcome. It only begs that you search for the absolute truth. Not what you want it to be. Not what you hope it is. If you have integrity and can be honest with yourself, you continue searching until you have definitive proof no matter the outcome, and no matter what answer you are after.

 

It took several years but I did get an answer to the absolute truth. No doubts, no questions. No room for error or my own opinion coloring the outcome. It was a gift given to me first-hand. Very directly.

 

------------------

 

It's getting late now. If there are any questions or responses that are actually worthwhile, I'll respond within the next couple of days.

No matter your malice towards me, I do hope that all of you have a good and safe Friday and weekend.

 

-humble

[Astreja]

It's really disappointing that so many (maybe the majority?) of responses of non-believers are simply childish name-calling and labeling.

 

Well, you're the one following a religion where a god requires a sacrifice before it can forgive, and where humans are punished if they don't accept the sacrifice.  I think "childish name-calling and labeling" is quite appropriate in that context.

[bornagainathiest]

humble wrote...

 

"It took several years but I did get an answer to the absolute truth. No doubts, no questions. No room for error or my own opinion coloring the outcome. It was a gift given to me first-hand. Very directly."

 

I'd very much like humble to convey this subjective error-free and opinion-free absolute truth to us.

 

 

 

[bornagainathiest]

humble wrote...

 

"And just a quick fact about the status of women in the Christian Holy Bible: in the first book Genesis, regarding the creation of Adam and Eve, although Adam was created first, Eve was created as an equal human, but actually God's crowning achievement of all creation! Eve was the culmination of His perfect creation! This was the status of women in the world. This is what God intended."

 

Perhaps humble could supply the necessary extra-Biblical corroboration for the 'fact' that Eve was the crowning achievement and intended culmination of God's creation?

 

 

[violetbutterfly]

My head hurts from all the circular logic.

[violetbutterfly]

"There is always a truth, whether you want to believe it or not."

Yep, exactly.

[Jeff]

^ I got it. You think he did?

[buffettphan]

^ Nope!    

[Storm]

See my responses below in Blue

 

A couple of your responses indicated that there are former believers here that may have been deeply involved with your faith, or church, or studying the bible, but have now turned away.

I get that. Perfectly understandable.

The teaching in many of today's churches is poison. What Christianity has commonly become today, was warned against by the Apostle Paul. In one book, he warned against "divisions in the church". That's exactly what exists today. So many different Christian denominations or faiths: Catholic, Lutheran, Pentecostal, etc, with sub-groups within those faiths. Each one thinking that they have the right answer, and all the others have it wrong in some way.

None of the current Christian denominations even existed  through Jesus' time on earth. His teaching, which at that time was aimed at transforming the convoluted faith of the Jewish people, commonly became known as "The Way".

This was not a new faith or belief. It was a correction of the Jewish faith.

At that time some people embraced the refreshing truth that Jesus brought, and others such as existing church leaders and elders refused to give up their power, prestige, and control over the Jewish people.

 

Jesus' core teachings have survived to this day as the faith known as Christianity. (I do know that most of you are aware of this, whether you actually believe in it or not.)

But, there is a significant difference between true Christianity, and "Christian Culture".

In today's society, people most often experience Christian Culture. Sunday masses, weekly bible studies, boring hymns, organ music, stand-up/sit down/kneel over and over again, reciting dry scripture verses, and the list goes on.

Monotonous, boring, and rarely ever helping you to connect with God. This is the Religion of Christianity.

It's filled with rituals and rules, and it's precisely what Jesus came to correct in the Jewish faith 2000 years ago.

I agree that the Christianity is a culture, more so than a religion, however I do not agree that there is a "true Christianity". Belief in Jesus and in Christianity is nothing more than a belief of comfort. Everything a Christian or "true Christian" believes is nothing more than a coping mechanism for this difficult thing called life.

 

As many of you already know, the Christian Religion of today does not lead you to God. What it frequently does is try to control you. It sows guilt and shame, uncertainty, doubt, anger, frustration, and perhaps worst of all, apathy. Think of all the hypocritical and fallen church leaders and elders. Why does this happen?

It does not lead you to god because he is not real. It does try to control you, and it most certainly does so by using guilt and shame. The uncertainty, doubt, anger, frustration, and apathy comes from the fact that it does not supply the answers that it claims to have. Its failures to do so force you to have to fill in the gaps due to its inadequacy in being able to explain life. These gaps create the problems you listed.

 

For believers, we're told in church that all the solutions to life's troubles can be found in the Bible. "Stay in The Word", do bible studies, be more involved at church, memorize bible passages, join the choir.

"Going deeper in your faith" means intensely studying the bible, book-by-book, verse-by-verse. Really trying to figure it out and understand it. Join a men's or women's ministry. Go on retreats. Build that relationship with Jesus! Hallelujah, praise the Lord!

 

I'm guessing most of us have heard versions of this, if not experienced it firsthand. We're sold this barrel of snake oil as the way to salvation. To connect with God. To live a good life.

What a crock! Has doing this stuff actually helped anyone? I seriously doubt it.

Aren't pastors and priests and church elders the ones that recommend doing this stuff? How is all this religion working out for them?

 

It isn't. And we all know it, because some of it makes media headlines, and it's laid bare and exposed for the world to see.

We continue to have problems in our own lives, or we see it in other's lives and families.

My own experiences include loss of a business, being estranged from my daughters, considering a divorce, and on the edge of financial ruin, just to name a few.

I find it interesting that you are implying that the church is wrong about telling you to stay in the word and study the bible, etc, but there is no other source of information regarding who Jesus is or how to live a godly life. If that isn't the crux of where Christianity's beliefs come from, how do you obtain the "truth"? Without the bible, you would not even know that Jesus ever existed.

 

So where does one go from here? It's hard to trust the church when nothing they recommend seems to work.

I could have chucked it all and become a staunch atheist like my ex-business partner, but his roller-coaster attitude between being angry and depressed just didn't appeal to me. Yes, he claimed to be happy, but we had been best friends for 8 years, and I knew him better than that.

Happiness is whatever you want it to be. Leaving a worldview like that of Christianity is a very difficult thing and it is a source of anger, depression, frustration and a host of other emotions. That does not mean that one cannot be happy. I am very happy that I have left Christianity, but I regularly experience anger and frustration and confusion because it is like I am trying to start all over and figure it all out once again. Christianity made it easy to accept what it has as a pre-packaged belief system. I am creating my own belief system and I have a lot of competing information that is trying to get a foothold in my thoughts and beliefs. I actually have to work to understand how things work and I have to filter the good and the bad out. It can be very frustrating and difficult. This explains the anger and depression and other feelings I experience.

But, to me, it is worth it. I can live life on my terms. I can value it as I see fit. My actions of love and compassion truly come from my heart and are not earning "brownie points" in heaven. To me, this is true love. This is true living.

 

Then I ran across a quote somewhere that made me think a bit deeper: "There is always a truth, whether you want to believe it or not."

 

Interesting. This really is an unbiased statement. It doesn't lead someone to a pre-conceived outcome. It only begs that you search for the absolute truth. Not what you want it to be. Not what you hope it is. If you have integrity and can be honest with yourself, you continue searching until you have definitive proof no matter the outcome, and no matter what answer you are after.

 

It took several years but I did get an answer to the absolute truth. No doubts, no questions. No room for error or my own opinion coloring the outcome. It was a gift given to me first-hand. Very directly

Your statement "There is always a truth, whether you want to believe it or not" may be unbiased, but it does lead to Motivated Reasoning and Confirmation Bias. Its not as simple as you are making it out to be.

The statement "There is always a truth, whether you want to believe it or not." may be unbiased in and of itself, but it does lead people to motivated reasoning and Confirmation Bias, so it is not as black and white as you are making it out to be. It is merely an idealized concept. There are some truths, but there are many perceived truths as well.

 

I am curious as to where/how you received this "revelation" of the absolute truth, and what it is exactly. (I wonder if you are just throwing up a fat pitch for someone to swing at so you can share your story, so I will swing away...)

 

 

 

[florduh]

Most Christians make an erroneous assumption as to why people leave the faith or even become atheists. Typically, it is not because of a bad church or preacher. It isn't because of the news-making corruption and excesses of organized religion. Those things can all be blamed on people.

 

The majority of folks who exit the faith do so because of it's basis in the Bible. When one takes a critical look at what the book says, its history, when we see the failure of prayer, when we look at actual history, archaeology, biology, astronomy, all the sciences, we find no basis in fact for the claims of the Bible. We buy into it on an emotional level and get out through cognitive processes. 

[midniterider]

For all unbelievers the christian Holy Bible is like a simplified map that is missing topography, a legend, any compass points, and all of the detail.

All you see on the map are dots and lines representing cities and roads. This would represent books, chapters, and verses in the bible.

You can read it over and over, even memorize it, but it never offers you any greater clarity, understanding, or meaning.

It is, quite honestly, foolish and useless to an unbeliever, and a complete waste of their time.

 

So after I got done being a Christian, God wiped my mind of the bible understanding I had? Lulz. I think a more accurate statement would be that Christians dont read the bible with the intent to understand what it says but just to imagine every line of text saying "God is great and loves me." Why have a book at all if it's words don't mean what they say? You are correct though that now, to me as unbeliever , reading the bible is a complete waste of time.

 

 

For all true believers,

 

For all True Scotsman: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

 

True believers...those are the Pentecostals, right? Baptists, maybe? Catholics? Episcopalians? Presbyterians? Mormons? Jehovah Witnesses? Which one?

 

the christian Holy Bible starts out similar to the unbeliever's map, with little detail.

But as the believer turns his/her heart towards God,

 

translated: As the believer continues to be indoctrinated into the cult of Christianity he begins to rely less on reason, critical thinking, and logic, instead allowing his churchmates to do the thinking for him. Christianity is like the Borg Collective. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg_%28Star_Trek%29

 

our maps start to fill in with the necessary components to read the map correctly. The Holy Bible isn't simply text on a page any longer, but the messages and lessons begin to be revealed to us.

The more a believer reads through the various books of the Bible, particularly the 4 gospels and the books of the new testament, the greater our understanding grows. Over time, our knowledge and understanding of the Holy Bible become like highly detailed 3-D maps of our place in God's universe.

 

Except that Christians and non-believers live the same kinda lives. Christians just go to church and claim to be special. Whatever.

 

It really is a waste of time for an unbeliever to quote scripture to a true believer, because the unbeliever, in their ignorance and hardened heart, will always quote out of context, or misuse the scripture passage in some way, to simply manipulate the believer.

 

It really is a waste of time for an unbeliever to quote scripture to a 'true' believer because a 'true' believer only chooses scriptures that reinforce what they want to feel, believe and hear. A 'true' believer plugs his ears when simple logic points out errors and contradictions in the bible. A 'true' believer has hardened his heart to reality and common sense, instead believing that random occurrences are acts of God. A 'true' believer feels that bibleGod's hideous acts (like the Great Drowning) are always 'righteous' . A strong conviction of leader infallibility is one hallmark of successful brainwashing.

 

Having any good discussion about Bible passages when unbelievers cannot argue correctly the content of the Bible is a lesson in futility. It simply cannot be done. God does not allow any person who has intentionally chosen to turn away from Him to understand the mysteries or universal knowledge of His Word.

 

But your thread about bible debate really is irrelevant. People who are falling away from Christianity are doing it on their own; of their own free will. You can't make a believer not believe. Christianity has too many built-in survival mechanisms in it . This website is more of a destination for people who are in the process of deconverting or already have made the choice for non-belief.

 

Christians think the bible is important. I dont, really. It's fun to debate fictional points in the fictional Holy Bible with believers though.

 

 

[Jeff]

Believers act like we're waiting here hoping someone will come rescue us. So they show up and preach using a book that means no more to us than the Koran thinking if only we understood the power of a fully functioning word of gawd... When actually were just hanging here to support those on the way out. And to let the lurkers know that there is life abundant without fear and without a make beleive god.

Personally my life is far happier and successful since dumping the silly religion.

[rjn]

 

I italicized the words "intentionally chosen" because that is specifically what I meant. The relatively few people on this planet that are not aware of Jesus's death on the cross as payment for our sins will gain entrance to heaven.

 

A person jeopardizes salvation when they intentionally choose to turn away from, or disbelieve in God.

 

Are you even aware of what you're saying?

 

"The relatively few people on this planet that are not aware of Jesus's death on the cross as payment for our sins will gain entrance to heaven."

 

Then tell your Christian brethrens to stop their proselytizing to uncontacted tribes, AT ONCE!

 

Besides that... do you truly believe BILLIONS of people deserve condemnation simply because they're not Christian? I have no love of Islam, but I'm confident in my belief that quite a lot of them are quite decent people despite that, and yes, they've heard of Jesus, hey, they even revere him, but it's not so much that they've rejected Christianity as they have simply not even considered it. They're muslim because of geographical and demographical reasons, just as you yourself, most likely, is a Christian due to the very same reasons. Same could be said for just about every person on the planet.

 

As human beings, we're in possession of an intellect (though questionable in certain cases), so are we not to use it? Allegedly, your God gave it to us. Would he approve if we accepted wild claims as truths? Are we supposed to be gullible and accept everything at face value? All you've got is a book with claims, and that's it. You even claim that we can not understand said book unless we accept YOUR premise!

 

In all honesty, I find your view to be utterly repulsive. Such a view of life and other people cheapens everything and makes it useless and cynical. You can not appreciate the experiences and strifes of other people outside of your little bubble.

 

[midniterider]

"The relatively few people on this planet that are not aware of Jesus's death on the cross as payment for our sins will gain entrance to heaven."

 

Then tell your Christian brethrens to stop their proselytizing to uncontacted tribes, AT ONCE!

 

...

 

 

Great comment, RJN. LoL. I may not understand the mysterious spirit filled word of jebus but I do understand logic. Evangelism just sends people to hell.

[humble]

Jeff: I think you're correct that most Christians that venture into this Lion's Den think they'll "round up a bunch of wayward or lost Christians using their positive attitude and a few choice bible passages, and voila, brownie points in heaven and a good story to tell their local congregation."

They think everyone needs or wants rescuing.

Years ago in my naivete I thought the same thing.

Although the heart may be in the right place, it is a self-centered and egotistical point of view. And it's one heckuva realization when you discover how wrong you are.

 

 

rjn: I used to have the viewpoint that I would just do what I wanted, when I wanted. God or no God, it didn't matter to me. He didn't seem to be helping me at all in my life, so I didn't care. I had no need of any religions.

I even had the mindset that at the end of my life, if I didn't please God enough to get into heaven (if it turned out there is one), then I was okay if God just "poofed" me out of existence. How would I know anyway, if I was gone?

 

But I did think that I was a pretty decent person, as were most of the people I knew, and I suspected, as you seem to, that most people around the world are pretty decent.

So if being a decent person is the ticket to "pass into heaven", then where is the cut-off line? How many "good" acts moves you forward? How many "bad" acts moves you back?. What's the ratio? What's the guideline for a "good" or "bad" act?

How does a person know where the line is? Why doesn't any religion tell us? Where does my score currently stand?

 

Well, there is an answer to this question. Christian "religion and culture" has been good at obfuscating it, and other religions just get it wrong.

 

Storm: I don't think it wrong for the church to tell us to "stay in the Word", or "study the Bible", per se. It's just that we get little guidance in how to do it properly. Why? Perhaps because very few church leaders really have the answer.

Sure, they have all the book-smarts. They were formally taught. Went to seminary. They love their churches and congregations. But they don't know how to lead people to God, because they have never truly built a real, personal relationship with God themselves.

Just as I could never tell you how to build and grow a successful business effectively, if my own experience included simply reading a book and taking a class on it.

I need experience, which may include failing first if I try on my own, or finding someone who has actually succeeded and learning from them. Go into any bookstore or look online today and you will find thousands of people who claim to know the right ways to build a successful business. How do you decide who has good, repeatable information? You can tell who has succeeded by the fruit of their efforts.

 

One problem with studying the Bible is where to start? If we simply start at the OT beginning with Genesis and move book-by-book, very quickly we will get mired in confusion, mixed messages, and become offended. (See violetbutterfly's Deuteronomy 21:10-14 passage as a good example.)

As I've mentioned in my earlier post, properly understanding context is critical. It can completely change the idea or meaning of a passage or statement.

The focus of the OT was towards one small segment of the total population of that time. The Jewish people and their culture. Yet, today Christians commonly read the OT as if it is written as a direct message to us in today's culture. It is not! I personally know leaders in men's ministry who mis-interpret the frustration and anger of God at the Jewish people of ancient times, and assume that God's anger still exists and is directed at us today. This is not true, and it is not biblical.

 

Over the course of history, God has made a number of covenants, starting exclusively with the Jewish people, and then, with Jesus' ministry and subsequent physical death on the cross, extending to all people.

The OT was directed at the ancient Jewish people.

The Gospels and NT are directed at all people since Jesus' birth.

 

That is not to say the OT is a throw-away book. It is important. But after Genesis and Exodus, a believer should stay in the Gospels and NT writings until they have a very firm understanding of the covenant that believers now live under.

 

Most Christians (about 98% based on one study) believe that the endgame of their faith is all about being saved. Making it to heaven.

Obviously, this would be important to a believer, but what the Christian "culture or religion" have hidden from people, is that salvation is just the starting point of what God has given us.

 

After they accept salvation, they sit firmly resting on their hands, and wonder why things aren't getting better. Is this it? Is this all there is to believing in God? What's the point?

The problem is, they never knew to explore further, or how to do it.

 

It's like saving all year to take your family to Disney World. Building up the excitement level and all.

You finally get there, buy your tickets, pass through the gate.

There is lush, beautiful flowers, plants, and greenery everywhere. A park bench sits to one side.

You look around, don't see much else, and take a seat on the bench, thinking to yourself "I made it!"

A few hours later, with nothing new or interesting going on, you become bored. You start to wonder "Why did I come here? What's so great about this?"

And either you sit there in your boredom on the bench, or you start to wander back out of the park.

 

What was missed in the "travel brochure" among the clutter of advertisements for local restaurants, theaters, and nightclubs, was the page that showed "You Are Here-->". "Follow this small, nondescript trail to the Magic Kingdom."

 

Sound like a child's fairy tale? I choose my words intentionally.

I know that my words will be mocked and criticized, and I'll be slandered. I've mocked others for similar ideas.

Interestingly, it comes from non-believers and believers alike. Perhaps I enjoy having hatred aimed at me. Don't most people?

The problem for me is that God showed me that nondescript path, in essentially a 2-step process in my case.

He started in the midst of me getting "hammered" by 4 atheists in a forum such as this one, but for Christian believers.

And I've been following it and exploring it for the past 4 years, and it has been quite amazing.

 

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And to anyone else, believe what you will. I don't care. I'm not here to sell any of you on anything.

I am only required to be a witness to things I have personally seen or experienced.

There is nothing you can take from me or change my mind, so don't bother trying. I had a very direct experience with God, and my troubled family relationships have been completely restored and are flourishing.

 

[florduh]

And to anyone else, believe what you will. I don't care. I'm not here to sell any of you on anything.

I am only required to be a witness to things I have personally seen or experienced.

There is nothing you can take from me or change my mind, so don't bother trying. I had a very direct experience with God, and my troubled family relationships have been completely restored and are flourishing.

 

So what is your purpose here?

[TheOutsider]

 

And to anyone else, believe what you will. I don't care. I'm not here to sell any of you on anything.

I am only required to be a witness to things I have personally seen or experienced.

There is nothing you can take from me or change my mind, so don't bother trying. I had a very direct experience with God, and my troubled family relationships have been completely restored and are flourishing.

 

So what is your purpose here?

 

 

I think he's masturbating.

 

I honestly don't have any better way of putting it. He claims to know something special that makes him a True Christian. He claims we can't talk to him about it because we aren't also True Christians. And then he continues to flaunt his special True Christian knowledge without telling anyone what it actually is.

 

Humble, I get it, epiphanies can feel good. But that doesn't mean they aren't bullshit. Go ahead and enjoy them when they happen, but take a dose of salt once you start coming down. It'll help lower your bullshit levels.

[bornagainathiest]

 

(snip)

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And to anyone else, believe what you will. I don't care. I'm not here to sell any of you on anything.

I am only required to be a witness to things I have personally seen or experienced.

There is nothing you can take from me or change my mind, so don't bother trying. I had a very direct experience with God, and my troubled family relationships have been completely restored and are flourishing.

 

Thank you for confirming that you had subjective experience of God, humble.

 

Sadly, your subjective experiences do not count as objective evidence for anything. 

[Astreja]

And to anyone else, believe what you will. I don't care. I'm not here to sell any of you on anything.

I am only required to be a witness to things I have personally seen or experienced.

There is nothing you can take from me or change my mind, so don't bother trying. I had a very direct experience with God, and my troubled family relationships have been completely restored and are flourishing.

 

Your witness is rejected.  Your subjective experiences are of no value to us.

[duderonomy]

Humble, you say you are "required to be a witness to things I have personally seen or experienced".

 

Spill the beans, man! You said you don't care if we believe it or not, so let's cut to the chase, and tell us about your "very direct experience with God".

[midniterider]

I am only required to be a witness to things I have personally seen or experienced.

There is nothing you can take from me or change my mind, so don't bother trying. I had a very direct experience with God, and my troubled family relationships have been completely restored and are flourishing.

 

My life got better when I got divorced from a Christian, stopped going to church, started living in 'sin' with another woman and eventually told Jesus I'd be handling my own life without him.

 

I'm sure I won't be changing your mind about Christianity nor have I been commissioned to try. People should be free to believe whatever they want.

 

But of course this is an Ex-Christian support website for people who got screwed up emotionally and mentally by the Christian experience so we don't have anything nice to say about that religion. The fear, shame, guilt and manipulation involved in Christianity sucked. 

[violetbutterfly]

 

I am only required to be a witness to things I have personally seen or experienced.

There is nothing you can take from me or change my mind, so don't bother trying. I had a very direct experience with God, and my troubled family relationships have been completely restored and are flourishing.

 

My life got better when I got divorced from a Christian, stopped going to church, started living in 'sin' with another woman and eventually told Jesus I'd be handling my own life without him.

 

 

 

That's funny, same for me. Must be SATAN    

[midniterider]

Humble, you say you are "required to be a witness to things I have personally seen or experienced".

 

Spill the beans, man! You said you don't care if we believe it or not, so let's cut to the chase, and tell us about your "very direct experience with God".

 

Was it an earthly in-the-flesh visitation? Or the "I prayed and things got better" kinda experience?