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Goodbye Jesus

Did You Re-commit Yourself To Christ Numerous Times?


pandora

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Someone's post in another thread got me thinking a bit. I am trying to figure out if it correlates with the liklihood of someone deconverting.

 

When I was a Christian, I sat through many alter calls... mostly at youth retreats and the like. Alter calls in my denomination were not common or very inspiring on Sundays. I don't think I EVER went up on one... although I do remember privately recommitting my life to Christ a few times. I don't know why I never fell for it... I think I just believed that I was "in" with God (I trusted the doctrine) and that I didn't need to publically display my devotion. I also notice that I haven't had any problems at all believing there is no Hell since my deconversion.. I haven't had to deal with the emotional repercussions of this belief as much as my husband or as the people on here. I don't know why. Maybe I wasn't really a Christian. I always thought those things were just a big production anyway and I eyed with skepticism those who did go up... especially those I know who went up more than once. Maybe I never really believed in Hell to begin with, or maybe I thought it took an awful lot for God to send someone to Hell.

 

What has been your experience? Any insights?

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I went through great confusion regarding these "re-dedications". Perhaps it was my budding logical mind....I'd like to think so.

 

I was confused by all these calls, especially after some super dramatic emotionally charging special event, like a visiting group putting on a performance or something. They were designed to basically yank hard on the heartstings, and make you doubt yourself at the same time.....resulting in many people "recommitting" at the end of the event.

 

I always resisted this. And my Christian self even kinda loathed me for doing it. Becuase there truly was a part of me that wanted to run crying for that alter call. I always resisted, because I always knew that a real someone was the source for my need. Whatever dynamic speaker had made me feel that way.....so I couldn't really think of it as god or the Spirit talking to me.

 

It seemed ungenuine to recommit when it was some charasmatic person inspiring it. I thought God was powerful enough to inspire such desire and need on it's own, and didn't need psychological manipulators on earth doing it.

 

And another thing that bugged me time and again.......Why did I need to re-dedicate or recommit? I was washed in the Blood wasn't I? Wasn't that supposed to be enough?

 

The lack of faith in my fellow christians actually helped me question many things about the dogma. Little oopses like that can turn into logic gaps big enough to drive a mack truck loaded with reason through (thank goodness!).

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I completely understand what you're saying... many of the same thoughts ran through my mind as a Christian, you just articulated them better than I did. :) ...especially the "was I washed in the blood or wasn't I?" and the recognizing the performance and manipulative speakers.

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Way back when I attended an Assembly of God church, I remember going down for alter

calls for prayers, healing,etc. I only recommitted myself once at the last church before

leaving xtianity. Thats when I joined the Church of Christ. Even then I was very reluctant.

I had gotten to the point where I believed my actions meant more than my words.

I always thought public recommitting was unnecessary. I felt it was personal. But that's what

the CoC expected me to do. So I did it. Like you I was skeptical of those who made these

public displays of recommitting. Of course it's all water under the bridge now.

I could kick myself for falling for all of it in the first place.

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I recommited my life to Christ many times over the years. It never stuck. It lasted as long as the religious high did. I recommitted sometimes privately and sometimes at altar calls, but either way it never lasted, and I have no doubt that I was really a True Christian! :) I had a lot of questions and a lot of doubts, and they kept getting in the way of my faith and caused me to "backslide". I finally just left the cult in 2000 after reading a great deal of material that was critical of the bible and the Christian religion.

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Someone's post in another thread got me thinking a bit. I am trying to figure out if it correlates with the liklihood of someone deconverting.

 

 

Pandora

 

I think it is a very interesting topic to look at the correlation between altar calls (emotional manipulation) and emotional problems leaving Christianity.

 

Among Christians I have always been regarded as a clear thinking person, that aren’t easily manipulated. But leaving Christianity has been a real eye opener to me. I have felt a lot of fear, and the process shows, that I have had (and still has some) emotional attachments to that fucking religion. I have not come forward at many altar calls, but nevertheless altar calls has played a major role in my life.

 

At a very young age (before elementary school) I had fears of hell. My mother read stories for me and my siblings from a children’s bible, and then she explained about salvation, heaven and hell. She also told, that we should not judge other people. We could never know who God would take to heaven, because he did not look at the outside, but at the heart.

 

In my mind this last point translated into, that I never could know if I would go to heaven or not. And therefore – I now can see when looking back - I have always felt very attracted to brands of Christianity (holiness, Pentecostal, charismatic), that offered visible changes of your life and assurance of salvation.

 

At a age of 12 (or so) I started attended a church with a lot of altar calls. In the beginning, I felt that I ought to come forward, but at the same time my emotions were very mixed. I did not go forward, and then I felt that it was the Devil holding me back. Finally after some years, I gave my life to Jesus in private. At that time, giving my life felt as a relief, but I also felt that I also had to make it public. In my mind, I wasn’t a real Christian before a person in good standing with God (=the pastor) had prayed with me. So one day (in a small setting), where the pastor directly asked me, I publicly accepted to become a Christian. And again I felt very relieved.

 

Later I have come forward a few times (for baptism, for holiness, for being filled with the Spirit, for a deeper commitment etc.), but most of the times I have not come forward. But I have been very emotional involved in altar calls, and struggled a lot with the related feelings.

 

In the last years of my Christianity, I found that altar calls are not a part of historic Christianity. For me, it was the only gate to heaven, but reality showed, that altar calls are invented about 100 years ago by the revivalist Charles Finney. Finney was (in spite of his Calvinist background) into free will theology. And according to this, if people do not respond positively to the message, the problem is not with God, but with free will. So Finney wanted to develop methods to motivate the audience to accept the message. He studied modern psychology in order to find methods to motivate people, and one of the results was, that he invented the altar call.

 

One of Finney’s big problems, was that although he had a lot of converts, he also had many backsliders. And therefore, he wanted to find methods to keep people in the fold. This let him into the idea, that he should have a number of meetings in a row in the same city (to keep the atmosphere warm), and it also let him into some form of holiness theology, with a second work of grace.

 

In my mind, it is interesting to study what altars calls and other forms of revivalist technology actually do to people. Brainwashing tend to go away if it isn’t reinforced all the time. It seems that revivalist technology does the same. But nevertheless, I guess it is possible, that revivalist technology (when take to the extreme as it is in holiness and Pentecostal circles) does create some emotional scars.

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Yes, I was always worried I hadn't confirmed my faith "properly" or that I didn't believe enough to stay out of hell. I, too, repeatedly had the experience of being "on fire" after a particularly strong speaker or an emotional music performance - it made it seem like I'd been sinning and falling away from Christ so much that I needed a re-dedication to keep me on track.

 

Looking back on it, it makes me angry because it's complete manipulation... they try to gain new converts that way, too, telling people that the emotions they feel are directly from God rather than from the adrenaline of the music or dramatic nature of the material. It's all about making people feel bad about their lives or focus on the negative aspects of their lives, using peoples' natural propensity for self-criticism and self-hatred, and then providing a way to "fix" it and get rid of the guilt (which of course, doesn't work beyond temporarily).

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Yes, I submitted to the peer pressure many times to make a public recommitment to Southern Baptist christianity. I think these requests/demands to come forward are very cult-like. They're designed to let the group know that you're willing to obey the group - you're basically making it known that you are still someone they can rely on, especially if a recommitment comes on the heels of some sort of "backsliding" where you disobeyed the group's rules.

 

I now see them as acts of submission to the group, just like a puppy will roll over on its back to show submission to its owner.

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I did this rededication thing so many times.

 

And I agree with mnemo and freethinker. It's manipulation and designed to reinforce submission. (and to beat down individualism, open thinking, and personal pride) - and to perhaps encourage greater selflessness (a larger wad of cash in the collection baskets)

 

My last round with christianity I was in a southern baptist church. This manipulation was so bad, the pastor didn't only try and get people to rededicate, he tried to convince everyone that they weren't "saved" to begin with. Even people who had been coming to that church for years and years. Here's an example of his bullshit.

 

"Jesus is roaming these pews. Searching hearts and minds. Examining your life. He's saying - 'do you really love me? Do you love me more than the world?' Don't be one of these church people - these pew sitters - to whom Jesus says 'I NEVER KNEW YOU'.

 

And, predictably, here would come the parade of weepies who were convinced that they were never saved. Week after the week the same shit.

 

When I was in that church long enough to see the second round come again (people getting "saved" for the second or third time) I said - that's enough of this.

 

That's pretty interesting about Finney being the guy who may have gotten this crap started. The dick-head. I never realized that it was a fairly recent development in the religion.

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This manipulation was so bad, the pastor didn't only try and get people to rededicate, he tried to convince everyone that they weren't "saved" to begin with. Even people who had been coming to that church for years and years. Here's an example of his bullshit.

 

"Jesus is roaming these pews. Searching hearts and minds. Examining your life. He's saying - 'do you really love me? Do you love me more than the world?' Don't be one of these church people - these pew sitters - to whom Jesus says 'I NEVER KNEW YOU'.

Exactly. The "best" preachers are the ones who can keep you guessing about whether or not you really have salvation. People are much more motivated to do what the church wants if they are just a little worried that they might not have gained eternal life.

 

Hellfire is a wonderful motivator - the best work of Christianity Inc.'s marketing department.

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Thank goodness the Mormon’s did not do these ‘altar-calls.’ I would have been up there in front of everybody every week blubbering like a fool. Jesus was already watching me masturbate to the men’s underwear section of the Sears catalog; running up to the altar and making a fool of myself would have been a snap. :ugh:

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Through the years..I would be "on fire", then "cold"..then have to rededicate again..and again.

 

And, it was usually after some emotional appeal. Towards the end, it seemed absurd. The emotional appeals no longer worked on my mind. It could be the most fired up preacher, or the most beautiful service, play, etc..it just felt so fake. The hellfire no longer touched me.

 

One thing that did get to me, back in 92 or 93, was my BIL's funeral. It was in a charismatic church and by the time the preacher finished..we ALL wanted to go with Sam to heaven. :lmao:

 

After that funeral, I rededicated myself. It wasn't too long after that that my stepdaughter brought the Left Behind series into my life. Boy, thinking about that was enough to scare the shit out of ya..believing it might be true, that is. Thing is..it had a slightly different effect on me. I wanted to stay behind for the "fun".. :shrug:

 

Like Brother Jeff said..it lasted as long as the religious high..sometimes long enough to drive home from church.. :P

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Jesus was already watching me masturbate to the men’s underwear section of the Sears catalog

This reminds me of a joke...

 

TAP dies and goes to heaven. When she arrives Jesus offers to give her a guided tour. After a while they arrive in a huge room that's full of gauges. The hands on the gauges are moving at differing speeds. TAP asks Jesus what the gauges are measuring.

 

"Oh", He says, "These gauges keep track of the number of times people on earth pleasure themselves."

 

TAP looks around and notices that there's a grouping of gauges labelled "Ex-Christian.net members", and each gauge has the name of one of the group's members. The one with TexasFreethinker's name is barely moving. Pitchu's gauge is moving a little faster and Nivek's is keeping a respectable pace. TAP looks hard for IBF's gauge, but can't find it. She asks Jesus why there is no gauge for IBF.

 

Jesus answers with a worried frown. "IBF has a gauge. We use it in the kitchen as a fan."

 

****

 

Sorry for the thread interruption. Back to the topic...

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At one youth retreat when I was 11 or 12 or so, they talked me into "recommitting" my life to Christ, even though I was born and raised Lutheran.

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At one youth retreat when I was 11 or 12 or so, they talked me into "recommitting" my life to Christ, even though I was born and raised Lutheran.

The Southern Baptist churches I attended had complex (and differing) rules about which christians could join their churches without requiring a re-baptism. If you joined from another Southern Baptist church you didn't have to get dunked again. They were ok with a few other flavors of Baptist (those they thought had the correct understanding of scripture), but everyone else (Lutherns included) had to be baptized again to join into the fellowship of TrueChristians™.

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Jesus was already watching me masturbate to the men’s underwear section of the Sears catalog

This reminds me of a joke...

 

TAP dies and goes to heaven. When she arrives Jesus offers to give her a guided tour. After a while they arrive in a huge room that's full of gauges. The hands on the gauges are moving at differing speeds. TAP asks Jesus what the gauges are measuring.

 

"Oh", He says, "These gauges keep track of the number of times people on earth pleasure themselves."

 

TAP looks around and notices that there's a grouping of gauges labelled "Ex-Christian.net members", and each gauge has the name of one of the group's members. The one with TexasFreethinker's name is barely moving. Pitchu's gauge is moving a little faster and Nivek's is keeping a respectable pace. TAP looks hard for IBF's gauge, but can't find it. She asks Jesus why there is no gauge for IBF.

 

Jesus answers with a worried frown. "IBF has a gauge. We use it in the kitchen as a fan."

 

****

 

Sorry for the thread interruption. Back to the topic...

 

TF, I want you know that I printed your post and took it upstairs to my partner with his coffee. (Yes, I take him coffee in bed every morning. I'm nice that way.)

 

I can still hear him laughing up there!! :thanks::thanks:

 

Precious, just precious. :lmao:

 

IBF

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............

That's pretty interesting about Finney being the guy who may have gotten this crap started. The dick-head. I never realized that it was a fairly recent development in the religion.

Oh sure! They even have a name for the areas where Finney preached. "The Burnt Out Zones". So named because the aftermath of Finney's evangelizism had burned people out spiritually. When the evangelical fervor died out, the high wore off and people wanted nothing more to do with religion. They were literally sickened by religion.

 

Finney himself even recognized this phenomenon and lamented his failures. Once again, proof positive that religion is not "holy", but merely a man-made contrivance for mind-control. After all, why would "God" require such "shows" and carnival acts ("mesmerism") to "win" anyone?

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............

That's pretty interesting about Finney being the guy who may have gotten this crap started. The dick-head. I never realized that it was a fairly recent development in the religion.

Oh sure! They even have a name for the areas where Finney preached. "The Burnt Out Zones". So named because the aftermath of Finney's evangelizism had burned people out spiritually. When the evangelical fervor died out, the high wore off and people wanted nothing more to do with religion. They were literally sickened by religion.

 

Finney himself even recognized this phenomenon and lamented his failures. Once again, proof positive that religion is not "holy", but merely a man-made contrivance for mind-control. After all, why would "God" require such "shows" and carnival acts ("mesmerism") to "win" anyone?

I think the history of the Burned Over District in Western NY state is interesting and gives some insight into the creation of various American fundy groups including the Mormons. There's a good summarization here.

 

TF, I want you know that I printed your post and took it upstairs to my partner with his coffee. (Yes, I take him coffee in bed every morning. I'm nice that way.)

 

I can still hear him laughing up there!! :thanks::thanks:

 

Precious, just precious. :lmao:

 

IBF

I try to bring a ray of sunshine into everyone's lives when I can. :wicked:

 

I'm going to have to talk to my partner about the coffee in bed thing. He's falling short in his husbandly duties.

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I try to bring a ray of sunshine into everyone's lives when I can. :wicked:

 

I'm going to have to talk to my partner about the coffee in bed thing. He's falling short in his husbandly duties.

 

 

I start working again in five weeks and most of my husbandly duties will be dropped. I will no doubt come home from work to find my partner still in bed, uncaffeinated and half starved. There is a part of me that is looking forward to seeing that. :grin:

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Jesus was already watching me masturbate to the men’s underwear section of the Sears catalog

This reminds me of a joke...

 

TAP dies and goes to heaven. When she arrives Jesus offers to give her a guided tour. After a while they arrive in a huge room that's full of gauges. The hands on the gauges are moving at differing speeds. TAP asks Jesus what the gauges are measuring.

 

"Oh", He says, "These gauges keep track of the number of times people on earth pleasure themselves."

 

TAP looks around and notices that there's a grouping of gauges labelled "Ex-Christian.net members", and each gauge has the name of one of the group's members. The one with TexasFreethinker's name is barely moving. Pitchu's gauge is moving a little faster and Nivek's is keeping a respectable pace. TAP looks hard for IBF's gauge, but can't find it. She asks Jesus why there is no gauge for IBF.

 

Jesus answers with a worried frown. "IBF has a gauge. We use it in the kitchen as a fan."

 

****

 

Sorry for the thread interruption. Back to the topic...

I'm betting they could take all those gauges from Ex-C and air condition hell with them.. :wicked:

 

I try to bring a ray of sunshine into everyone's lives when I can. :wicked:

 

I'm going to have to talk to my partner about the coffee in bed thing. He's falling short in his husbandly duties.

 

 

I start working again in five weeks and most of my husbandly duties will be dropped. I will no doubt come home from work to find my partner still in bed, uncaffeinated and half starved. There is a part of me that is looking forward to seeing that. :grin:

You move the coffee maker to the bedroom..with a timer on it, so it will be ready for him when he gets up, silly! You can't leave him without caffiene all day..that is just too cruel..

 

My husband, who cannot drink caffeinated coffee because of his heart, prepares the pot every night so all I have to do when I get up is pour it.. :grin:

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I start working again in five weeks

Congratulations! I must have missed that news. I hope you really enjoy it.

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I had a couple of rededications myself; once when I left Catholicism to become a born-again fundy, and again when I returned to Catholicism. Every time it was me thinking I was coming back to the True Xianity and the Real Jesus™. It was only me fooling myself again as to the god I worshipped, getting all pumped up on a certain sect's propaganda and living it out.

 

Eventually I just ran the gamut so badly there was nothing left to explore, save perhaps the Eastern Orthodox church. I seriously contemplated joining them for a time, but doubt ever gnawed at me until I finally quit playing games with myself and dropped Xianity altogether.

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Interesting... so those of you who did rededicate yourselves numerous times publically, did you have a rough time shedding the fear of hell too?

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I don't quite remember the first time I "prayed the sinner's prayer". My sister was always witnessing to me, so it must have been with her. I was publicly baptised by immersion at age 9 in the Assembly of God church just cuz it was the "thing to do" if you have accepted Christ as your savior. I went forward at a Xian camp a few months later and got baptized in the "Holy Spook", spoke in tongues, etc. When I joined the Episcopal church, I went through their confirmation class and was publicly confirmed by the local bishop, so that probably counts as a rededication.

 

I always had doubts, so rededicated myself to the Lawd privately many times. When I was in my early 20s, evangelist David Wilkerson came to the small town I lived in in Oregon and held a couple of meetings. I went to one. He talked to the doubters like me, sympathizing and calling us the "un-believers", not in a derogatory but in a kind way, and asked those like me to come forward at the end, so I did. I talked and prayed with a counselor, though I still had doubts later. I went back and forth to xianity many times before walking away from it a year ago.

 

Yes, fear of hell and being left behind has been a huge motivator for me to believe in the past and it occasionally bothers me now. I'm still in the deprogamming stage and stuff bubbles up from time to time.

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Interesting... so those of you who did rededicate yourselves numerous times publically, did you have a rough time shedding the fear of hell too?

My fear of hell is definitely linked to my re-dedications, because I was doing them specifically in case I hadn't done enough to avoid hell.

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