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Goodbye Jesus

Proof That Jesus Lived, But ?


Open_Minded

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Hello everyone,

 

A few weeks ago we got into a pretty interesting conversation in my meditation group. We entertained the question:

 

What would happen to Christianity as a religion, and what would happen to our own personal faith, if some archealogist somewhere found an ossuary with the inscription - "Jesus of Nazerth - King of the Jews" - inscribed on it (filled with bones).

 

I mean think about it, Christianity would have proof Jesus existed, but it's also proof that the resurrection did not involve the physical body of Jesus. My questions to the Christians who frequent this board are:

  1. What would happen to your personal faith?
  2. Is your faith based on something other than the literal interpretation of the Bible?
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Good topic!

 

I guess that would mean the gnostics were not heretics after all. Maybe a little off

topic but it was the first thing to come to mind when I read this. Hope it doesn't

sidetrack your thread.

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Good topic!

 

I guess that would mean the gnostics were not heretics after all. Maybe a little off

topic but it was the first thing to come to mind when I read this. Hope it doesn't

sidetrack your thread.

 

Not at all, Anakin :)

 

I hadn't thought of that, but you're right ... it would mean the gnostics were not heretics.

 

The reason I started the thread, is that we had this discussion in our small group at church. Answers were interesting, and I was just wondering what kind of answers the question would get here.

 

Looking forward to answers from all quarters.

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O_M,

 

I would have to hope that it would be the little spark that started the fire of awakening. The only thing it would destroy is their false belief which would make room for the truth. One of my fav's..."The truth shall set you free."

 

It would allow them to discover the very insightful, philosophical truths that Jesus spoke and it would help them realize that it doesn't matter if he was real or not, but the message is what is important. They would no longer need to worship the 'form' of Jesus, but understand what he was saying. I think it would be a good thing in the long run.

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Guest Shiva H. Vishnu

Hello everyone,

 

A few weeks ago we got into a pretty interesting conversation in my meditation group. We entertained the question:

 

What would happen to Christianity as a religion, and what would happen to our own personal faith, if some archealogist somewhere found an ossuary with the inscription - "Jesus of Nazerth - King of the Jews" - inscribed on it (filled with bones).

 

I mean think about it, Christianity would have proof Jesus existed, but it's also proof that the resurrection did not involve the physical body of Jesus. My questions to the Christians who frequent this board are:

  1. What would happen to your personal faith?
  2. Is your faith based on something other than the literal interpretation of the Bible?

 

 

There's a rather whimsical book with this idea as it's central plot device called Another Roadside Attraction by Tom Robbins. Great read.

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Well, considering that I am a 3rd generation Deist and never was a Christian, it wouldn't affect my faith at all. I would be happy to see that I was right all along, that he was nothing more than a iternerate rabbi that was in the wrong place at the wrong time! - Heimdall :yellow:

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A most intriguing subject for Christians to ponder. Open_Minded, I'm more curious as to the responses in your meditation group. (Also, why not post this on ChristianForums.com? I would LOVE to read what the Real Christian™ response would be. :lmao: )

 

However, since you asked for our speculations, I'll play along with the gag. :grin:

 

My first cynical thought is that Christians would squeal like stuck pigs and deny these archeological finds, and denounce them as frauds. The acheologists' character would be attacked, ad hominems would flow like a river of blood and the Inquisition would be brought back just to kill these heretics.

 

(I'm being SLIGHTLY facecious, however... :twitch: ?)

 

I know my Christians. Any such findings would be ignored as the work of Satan's agents and the church would continue unabated, like nothing ever happened. ("Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!")

 

Meanwhile, those of us who already don't believe, and those on the fence, would say "A-ha! Told you so! Chocolate and beer for all my friends!" (Don't ask. It just sounded funny at the time I thought it up. :shrug: )

 

In short, yes, the church would take a hit, resulting in a loss of followers, but I don't think it would shake church foundations any more than pedophile priests and diamond mine owning evangelists already have. (Which is to say, not at all.) Priests and Pastors would quickly concoct a "reasonable explanation" (Conspiracy Theory) and the sheep would dutifully eat it up.

 

Christianity is composed of gullible and foolish people. Facts and Truth carry almost zero weight in the face of blind Faith and the "Fear of God". People believe because they WANT to believe, AND because they are intimidated to believe.

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Christianity is composed of gullible and foolish people. Facts and Truth carry almost zero weight in the face of blind Faith and the "Fear of God". People believe because they WANT to believe, AND because they are intimidated to believe.

 

Very true, Mr. G. It is a religion that's based in fear of god and blind faith; hence, if the minister explains the find away -- no matter how ridiculous the explaination is (as a lot of what's in the good book) then the followers, for the most part, would write off any science or archeological find as a big myth -- or a conspiracy of biblical (pardon the pun) proportions. That is one thing I have learned with dealing with Fundies, they have excuses and "out of content" claims to choke a large herd of cows. They don't deal in reality whatsoever. Kind of like Jim Jones saying, "Take this Kool-Aid for Christ and you will be freed...." Well, he was right they were freed, they just didn't realize how free free was...

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I am 100% POSITIVE they would attribute the "evidence" to Satan and his minions (read=archeologists/scientists/historians), and I'm sure some would break away into a new major denomination.

But Grinchy beat me to it-- so I'll just give him a big AMEN!

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There's a rather whimsical book with this idea as it's central plot device called Another Roadside Attraction by Tom Robbins. Great read.

Wow ... that does sound good. Sigh .... just one more book to add to my list. :grin:

 

A most intriguing subject for Christians to ponder. Open_Minded, I'm more curious as to the responses in your meditation group.

The people in my meditation group are comfortable with me, and the way I approach things, Mr. Grinch. There responses to that question weren't all that different than what one might expect here. Let's put it this way, the question itself came up spontaneously and casually in discussion. It wasn't any pivotal moment at all. Just an interesting question, and I thought of you all. ;)

 

Also, why not post this on ChristianForums.com? I would LOVE to read what the Real Christian™ response would be.

I'd love to read the "True Christian" response as well. It is a thought to post it on ChristianForums. But - I'd rather lurk on that forum. If I post - they'll know who I am. :grin:

 

But, any "True Christian" lurking around this thread is certainly welcome to post. One of the benefits of the question - is that it really does require an examination of where your faith is bound. If faith is bound to black and white words on a page, then the reality of a resurrection which is not flesh and bones in nature would certainly leave one quaking.....

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I'd love to read the "True Christian" response as well. It is a thought to post it on ChristianForums. But - I'd rather lurk on that forum. If I post - they'll know who I am. :grin:

 

But, any "True Christian" lurking around this thread is certainly welcome to post. One of the benefits of the question - is that it really does require an examination of where your faith is bound. If faith is bound to black and white words on a page, then the reality of a resurrection which is not flesh and bones in nature would certainly leave one quaking.....

 

OM,

 

You say "faith."; I say "spirituality." I don't think you have to have faith to have a spirituality and vice versa.

 

I agree with you that spirituality is something inside, if it comes from something external than it has no meaning.

 

As far as "True Christians ", if there ever was one it's you, OM. I think you exemplify what Christians should be.

 

Taph

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I guess that would mean the gnostics were not heretics after all. Maybe a little off

topic but it was the first thing to come to mind when I read this. Hope it doesn't

sidetrack your thread.

 

:)Anakin, What did the gnostics do/say that made this topic remind you of them? Did they say Jesus died and he was buried?

 

:)Open Minded, if we could provide and prove such a finding, that would solve the bigger controversy... that he even existed!!! If one were to be found, there would still be controversy... the person who found it would not be trusted even if he were telling the truth. How could one PROVE the body was of Jesus in the Bible? If there was a Jesus, and he died, then ascended to heaven.... he surely didn't take his body with him!

 

There are Muslims now, who believe Jesus survived the crucifiction and went to Kashmir to live. Info from the online encyclopedia found here.

 

Muslims also believe that Jesus received a gospel from God (called the Injil) that corresponds to the Christian New Testament, but that it and the Old Testament have both been changed by mankind over time as such that they no longer accurately represent God's original message to mankind. In Muslim traditions, Jesus lived a perfect life of nonviolence, showing kindness to humans and animals (similar to the other Islamic prophets), without material possessions and abstaining from sin (including alcohol consumption).

 

The Ahmadiyya Muslims believe that Jesus survived the crucifixion and later travelled to Kashmir, where he lived and died as a prophet under the name of Yuz Asaf.

 

People in Kashmir actually claim to have the tomb of Jesus found here, and how can anyone prove it? :shrug:

 

KASHMIR has many popular myths and legends. Mysterious, intriguing and sometimes controversial. One of the most talked about in recent times is the existence of a tomb at Rozabal, Khanyar that is supposed to be final resting place of Jesus Christ.

 

If they do find the burial place of Jesus, I'd have to agree with NBBTB's post, especially this...

 

I would have to hope that it would be the little spark that started the fire of awakening. The only thing it would destroy is their false belief which would make room for the truth.

 

However, I've been rather amazed at how hard it is to prove Jesus even existed! Open Minded, have you done any participation in those kind of debates on this site? :phew:

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You say "faith."; I say "spirituality." I don't think you have to have faith to have a spirituality and vice versa.

 

I agree with you that spirituality is something inside, if it comes from something external than it has no meaning.

 

As far as "True Christians ™", if there ever was one it's you, OM. I think you exemplify what Christians should be.

 

Taph

 

Wow ... Taph ... I am touched. Thank you, sincerely ... I thank you. :wub:

 

There are Muslims now, who believe Jesus survived the crucifiction and went to Kashmir to live. <Snip>

People in Kashmir actually claim to have the tomb of Jesus found here, and how can anyone prove it?

 

Amanda ... I vaguely remember my pastor talking a bit about this. You are right ... there is no way to prove any of it. ;)

 

However, I've been rather amazed at how hard it is to prove Jesus even existed! Open Minded, have you done any participation in those kind of debates on this site?

 

No ... not really ... there are some things that I don't feel the need - or desire - to prove. I think coming out of a non-literalist background, I was never really exposed to this type of verse-by-verse analysis. I truly have great admiration for the way folks like Skeptic can move through the paces with a literalist. And, having been exposed to the black and white literalist thought process, on this board, I've also come to appreciate why these types of discussions are necessary.

 

But - on a personal level it's beyond me. From my perspective - if someone proved tomorrow that Jesus never walked the earth, it would not change the core of my spiritual life. And since - right now - it can't be proven either way, debating it doesn't appeal to me. :grin:

 

However ... I do know proof that Jesus didn't physically rise from the grave, or proof that he did not exist would rock a lot of literalist Christians. And to me, that reality alone is worth the discussion. If ones "faith" is based on nothing but mere words on a page - then can it really be called "faith" or is it more a blind adherance to theology?

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Most christians I know would run to the bible. Search the scriptures for the answer.

 

And the following passages would be preached in 75% of churches the following Sunday:

 

2 Thessalonians Chapter 2:

 

9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

 

 

These "bones of Jesus" would become the test. The strong delusion. Anyone who fell for it would be cast into the lake of fire at the judgment.

 

And, we'd be off and running on a whole new chapter of christianism.

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I can't find it in the Archives part of this website right now, but Dan Barker postulated that the earliest Christians did not believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus. He thinks the words of Stephen in Acts and the epistles of Paul show that they only thought to preach that Jesus rose spiritually. Later on the belief in a bodily resurrection grew -- hence the contradictions among the later resurrection narratives in the Gospels. Barker's scenario is consistent with the one you imagine, O_M. Maybe it's what they really believed in the first generation after Jesus' crucifixion, i.e. that his spirit triumphed over death without their going on to claim his body rose from the dead.

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As far as shaking the faith of fundamentalists: If all the clarity of thought and research from credible scientists from every corner of the globe, and in near every field of science is unable to persuade with the crushing weight of mountains of valid research, that the planet is in fact more than 6000 years old to them, how under the great blue skies above, would one tiny, little set of dry human bones do better at persuasion? They already have warehouses full of human bones that fail to convince them of anything. Tis no way that one skeleton's gonna do it.

 

"A man convinced against his will, remains of same opinion still."

 

 

 

As far as "True Christians ™", if there ever was one it's you, OM. I think you exemplify what Christians should be.

Indeed. "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian..." :grin:

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If I were still Xian, I'd deny it as a big hoax - listening to evidence as a Xian isn't exactly the thing to do, y'know.

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:)Anakin, What did the gnostics do/say that made this topic remind you of them? Did they say Jesus died and he was buried?

From what I remember, I believe the gnostics took a non-literal view of the resurection.

They saw it as symbolic. Somewhere around the 2nd century the literalist view won

and the gnostics were viewed as heretics. Couple of good reads on the subject are:

"The Jesus Mysteries" by Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy and "The Gnostic Gospels" by

Elaine Pagels.

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Not to derail the thread, but what if: instead of finding the controversial bones of Jesus, they found the personal, actual writings of St. Paul? And in those writings, he describes how he planned to change xtianity to what he thought it should be. In other words, Paul pretty much cops to the whole thing. :eek:

 

Now THAT would fuck up the theology! If Paul was completely discredited by his own hand, there goes at least half of traditional xtian belief. :wicked:

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Come on now... You know how many dudes were named "Jesus" back then? And how many of them claimed to be "King of the Jews?" It's gotta be about as many as have slept with Pam Anderson...

 

Just because one grave had some bones in it and an inscription, doesn't mean that he didn't rise from the dead...

 

Maybe he arose with a new spiritual "body" and the bones were irrelevant? I mean, yeah, Thomas was looking for holes and $#!+ when he doubted, but c'mon... he's the son of god... if he wants to leave bones, he's leavin' bones, and there's nothing we can do about it!

 

Right? :scratch:

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Hello everyone,

 

A few weeks ago we got into a pretty interesting conversation in my meditation group. We entertained the question:

 

What would happen to Christianity as a religion, and what would happen to our own personal faith, if some archealogist somewhere found an ossuary with the inscription - "Jesus of Nazerth - King of the Jews" - inscribed on it (filled with bones).

 

I mean think about it, Christianity would have proof Jesus existed, but it's also proof that the resurrection did not involve the physical body of Jesus. My questions to the Christians who frequent this board are:

  1. What would happen to your personal faith?
  2. Is your faith based on something other than the literal interpretation of the Bible?

 

 

I would like to add one more question here. It goes:

 

Even if we suppose, that the life, teachings, death and bodily ressurection of Jesus are historical facts. How do you know, that your church is working on his behalf?

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but what if: instead of finding the controversial bones of Jesus, they found the personal, actual writings of St. Paul? And in those writings, he describes how he planned to change xtianity to what he thought it should be. In other words, Paul pretty much cops to the whole thing. :eek:

 

:)All Gods Fail, how are you going to PROVE that was the writing of Paul. I mean, there were probably as many people named Paul then as there are today! :P ------ :grin:

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but what if: instead of finding the controversial bones of Jesus, they found the personal, actual writings of St. Paul? And in those writings, he describes how he planned to change xtianity to what he thought it should be. In other words, Paul pretty much cops to the whole thing. :eek:

 

:)All Gods Fail, how are you going to PROVE that was the writing of Paul. I mean, there were probably as many people named Paul then as there are today! :P ------ :grin:

 

As far as I am aware, Paul is a well established historical figure. We know pretty much about him, including wich letters in the Bible he wrote.

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I would have to hope that it would be the little spark that started the fire of awakening.

 

---edited cause realised Mr Grinch already said waht I wanted to say

 

 

 

There are Muslims now, who believe Jesus survived the crucifiction and went to Kashmir to live. Info from the online encyclopedia found here.

 

 

 

These ahmadi muslims are nothing more than the followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, who though he was the prophesised Messiah. This groups kind of reminds me of followers of Reverend Moon

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadi]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadi[/url]

 

But no Amanda, that is just a myth.

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.........

I would like to add one more question here. It goes:

.........

Me too! Rather than begin an entirely seperate thread, I would like to ask a question which expands upon Open_Minded's OP. (Hope you don't mind, O_M? If so, just say so and I'll take my musings elsewhere. :grin: )To wit:

 

If archeological findings of bones wouldn't convince anyone to leave Christianity (which seems to be our concensus), then WHAT WOULD?

 

WHAT DISCOVERY WOULD IT TAKE TO CONVINCE CHRISTIANS THAT CHRISTIANITY IS A SHAM?

 

In light of 2,000 years of whittling away at Church foundations and in spite of all the glaring failures of Christianity (atrocities, wars, inquisitions, crusades, witch burnings, perversities, hypocrisies, etc.), the religion has proceeded like a juggernaut zombie. For all intents and purposes dead, but inertia keeps moving it forward. People used to attend church because it was a beautiful palace. But today they go because it is a Haunted House attraction. It seems that no matter what occurs, the religion lives on.

 

So, I ask you, is there ANYTHING that would bring Christianity to a screeching halt?

 

My answer, as you might suspect, is NO. I'll elaborate later, but for now I'd like to yield the floor to someone else to see what you think.

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