The Simplicity Of The Christian Message

[LogicalFallacy]

Very interesting thanks dangitbobby. I haven't looked into religions outside the Abrahamic religions yet, so that post was very interesting.

[dangitbobby83]

Very interesting thanks dangitbobby. I haven't looked into religions outside the Abrahamic religions yet, so that post was very interesting.

 

I highly recommend it. If you want to inoculate yourself against religion, study as many as you can and look at their strengths and weaknesses as a worldview. It doesn't take long to see that they are all man-made and all are used to support and organize this crazy world into something malleable and controllable. (even if that malleableness is an illusion) 

[Voice]

I have to give kudos for that one too bobby. Excellent post.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

LogicalFallacy: Do you not see anything wrong with what you posted here? Satan was created by an all powerful God who intentionally created him to deceive. And that elaborate mess you speak of, that is blasphemy. That is God's great plan for mankind. You are calling a mess that which God calls a grand plan. Mean while God sends a delusion so that we may believe what is false.

 

 

Thumbelina: God did not intentionally create Satan to deceive people. God created him perfect. Lucifer mysteriously chose to deviate from God's law & became Satan. When ancient writers say God sends delusions or hardens hearts etc. it means as the supreme Potentate, He permitted beings to CHOOSE to do wrong. The bible says God cannot be tempted with evil & He tempts no man to do it either.

 

 

So how can an all-knowing, all-seeing and perfect God do anything unintentionally?

 

 

(Bumped for Thumbelina to ignore...

 

 

...and for the lurkers to take note that she ignored this question.) 

 

 

(Bump!)

[Castiel233]

the bible message is simple......

 

Nearly everyone goes to hell forever and ever because God forgot to put a padlock on his magic apple tree

 

The end

[pratt]

the bible message is so simplevthat it is unbelieveable,,,,,l

 

stuck at talking snake,,,,

[ironhorse]

the bible message is so simplevthat it is unbelieveable,,,,,l

 

stuck at talking snake,,,,

 

 

I have never said the Bible is easy to understand nor have I claimed to know the meaning of every “jot and tittle”, but I do know that salvation is easy to understand and it is free.

 

 

“For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

 

~ Romans 10:13

[bornagainathiest]

 

the bible message is so simplevthat it is unbelieveable,,,,,l

 

stuck at talking snake,,,,

 

 

I have never said the Bible is easy to understand nor have I claimed to know the meaning of every “jot and tittle”, but I do know that salvation is easy to understand and it is free.

 

 

“For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

 

~ Romans 10:13

 

 

Posted 07 October 2016 - 07:16 PM

I love the Christian message for its simplicity.

I don’t need a priest, a guru or obey long list of man-made requirements.

I simply believe in Christ and go from there.

.

.

.

Ironhorse loves the Christian message for it's simplicity.

 

But he never said it was easy to understand.

 

Making it's simplicity ...difficult to understand?

 

[rjn]

 

the bible message is so simplevthat it is unbelieveable,,,,,l

 

stuck at talking snake,,,,

 

 

I have never said the Bible is easy to understand nor have I claimed to know the meaning of every “jot and tittle”, but I do know that salvation is easy to understand and it is free.

 

 

“For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

 

~ Romans 10:13

 

 

The "gift" of salvation isn't free, it comes with certain terms and conditions. Unless you believe in universal salvation, there's no way to turn mainstream soteriology into meaning "free salvation".

[L.B.]

Does calling on the name of the Lord require animal sacrifices or not?

 

If you believe God's requirements changed, how do you account for the orthodox Jewish tradition that still insist his requirements have not essentially changed, but have only been adjusted on account of the inconvenience of a destroyed temple?

 

None of your banality excuses you from admitting that there is not only no single "simple" answer, there are not even two or three opinions on so-called "salvation".

 

The people who have been copying and translating and preserving the bible for the longest don't agree with your views. Of course, your preferred divergence from their understanding includes a rationale that they are spiritually "blinded", thus unable too see the "truth" without divine guidance.

 

Interestingly, that's what every cult says about their detractors and opponents.

[pratt]

better still explain

 

what you mean by

 

what is salvation

why you need salvation

salvation is free

how to get salvation

 

ANY EMPIRICAL PROOF of whatever you claimed is true then

 

any terms and conditions attached and what are the fine prints

 

IF NOT FO

[duderonomy]

 

the bible message is so simplevthat it is unbelieveable,,,,,l

 

stuck at talking snake,,,,

 

 

I have never said the Bible is easy to understand nor have I claimed to know the meaning of every “jot and tittle”, but I do know that salvation is easy to understand and it is free.

 

 

“For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

 

~ Romans 10:13

 

 

Ironhorse, I once called upon the name of the Lord and accepted him into my heart, and I knew he was there. Am I still saved, then? Can anyone pluck me from his hand?

 

I used to believe it, but now I don't. Am I still saved? Jesus seems to say that I am still saved, right? Can it be that simple? 

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

 

I simply believe in Christ and go from there.

In india, people simply believe in krishna and go from there.

In tibet, people simply believe in buddha and go from there.

In utah, people simply believe in joseph smith and go from there there. 

In l.a., people simply believe in l. ron hubbard and go from there.

In china, people simply believe in lao tzu and go from there. 

 

What's your point, other than believing in the popular religious cult of your current location in the world?

 

 

 

In all the belief systems you listed, salvation is not achieved by a simple yes, I believe. They are dependent on the person taking steps, following the rules, working their way to God or nirvana or whatever the enlightenment the system promises.

 

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.”

~ Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV)

 

"Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed – not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence – continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his purpose." Philippians 2:12-13

 

So even if God works in you, you have to perform works in order to attain salvation. The NT gives lots of examples of how believers can screw up. Your attempts to say that Christian salvation does not require "works" are either heresy or conscious lying.

 

Meanwhile, you have not refuted dangitbobby's information about the Hare Krishna movement. And you've offered no evidence for any claim that Hare Krishna is false and Christianity is true.

 

Fail. 

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

I simply believe in Christ and go from there.

In india, people simply believe in krishna and go from there.

In tibet, people simply believe in buddha and go from there.

In utah, people simply believe in joseph smith and go from there there. 

In l.a., people simply believe in l. ron hubbard and go from there.

In china, people simply believe in lao tzu and go from there. 

 

What's your point, other than believing in the popular religious cult of your current location in the world?

 

 

 

In all the belief systems you listed, salvation is not achieved by a simple yes, I believe. They are dependent on the person taking steps, following the rules, working their way to God or nirvana or whatever the enlightenment the system promises.

 

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.”

~ Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV)

 

"Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed – not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence – continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his purpose." Philippians 2:12-13

 

So even if God works in you, you have to perform works in order to attain salvation. The NT gives lots of examples of how believers can screw up. Your attempts to say that Christian salvation does not require "works" are either heresy or conscious lying.

 

Meanwhile, you have not refuted dangitbobby's information about the Hare Krishna movement. And you've offered no evidence for any claim that Hare Krishna is false and Christianity is true.

 

Fail. 

 

 

Do you mean like Ananias and Sapphira, Ficino?

 

Acts 5.

 

 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property.

2 With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.

3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?

4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal?What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened.

6 Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

7 About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.

8 Peter asked her, “Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?”

“Yes,” she said, “that is the price.”

9 Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”

10 At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband.

11 Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Well, BAA, maybe. But I don't know whether Ananias and Sapphira were genuine, trademark born again predestined from the foundation of the Earth sheep. They may have been goats. Or maybe they were struck dead and that was their purification and they're in glory now, rejoicing at God's eternal punishment of other poor sinners who didn't make it. Don't know.

 

But at the least, I mean people like these, from a verse I think you've also quoted:

 

"4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

Hebrews 6:4-6

But to be clear about works: James 2:17: "faith of itself, if it does not have work, is dead." James 2:24 "See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." 2:26 "For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

 

F = has faith

W = does works

S = is saved

 

(x) xF & ~xW > ~xS  For all x, if x has faith and it is not the case that x does works, it is not the case that x is saved.

 

Where is my Hare Krishna drum?

[LogicalFallacy]

When you guys are referring to "works" is your understanding of works like doing good things, baking for the poor, helping the homeless etc, or is works living a good life in line with the bible? (So you live humbly, be honest, follow the commandments, love thy neighbour etc?)

 

Therefore one could believe but not live the life (Have works) (If that's possible)thus not be saved. Or one could live the life (Which would be me ATM) but not believe.

 

I am reminded of Luther "The just shall live by faith" and he railed against the having to pay penance etc of the Catholic church. But is penance the works James refers to?

[L.B.]

 

 

When you guys are referring to "works"...

 

It's the single biggest argument the Christards have ever had. Seriously.

 

Is "salvation" a matter of being cleansed from sin and THUS, POST-SALVATION, enabled by the Friendly Ghost to do good works - NONE of which are meritorious in the least as it pertains to one's standing before a god,

 

OR

 

is "salvation" a matter of being cleansed from sin IN ORDER THAT, being enabled by Casper, one might perform works of mercy, both practical and spiritual, in accordance with god's law - which are meritorious because the ghost enabled your ability in the first place, thus, as Augustine put it (IIRC), "doing naught but crowning his own works" by granting you a place in heaven?

 

See, one of the major sticking points of Luder's "reformation" was the Catholic idea that one could fall into mortal sin post-cleansing and be bound for hell all over again. Luder and his kind believed (rightly) that the Catholic church used such fear-based theology to keep people subservient and to keep them donating money, land, children, animals, etc to the Church's coffers in an effort to keep up the "good works".

 

Luder and others went on to teach that if god chose to save someone, they were irrevocably destined for heaven, no matter how awfully they might behave post-salvation, which, of course, begged (and still begs) the question of whether someone "saved" who does nasty things was ever "really saved" in the first place, because the Christards still want to believe that a ghost makes people nice if they say a prayer and accept the rule of their cosmic tribal god and his undead son.

 

See, as I've said many, many times, the ONLY proof any Christard has of any god is the ability of any of their adherents to behave in ways that are generally harmonious with a broad application of the New Testicle's injunctions concerning behavior and belief.

 

When Christards are nice to each other or seemingly generous to those in need, it's because of the Friendly Ghost.

 

When Christards fuck up and act shitty, like people do sometimes, they're either under attack from a deadly demon or they were never really "saved" to begin with.

 

It's the simplest cop-out you can imagine, yet it is literally the ONLY proof they have that any god exists at all, let alone their very specifically-unique one.

 

This argument stands, IMHO, as the stupidest circular bullshit I've ever heard: "The bible says god's spirit leads us and makes us do holy things. When we sin, it's not because there's no spirit leading us, it's because we have failed to listen to and obey and please the spirit. If we return to doing good things, it's because the spirit. If we then go back to sinning, it's because of US, not because of the spirit not being real."

[ironhorse]

This thread is an act of intellectual dishonesty and cowardice, Ironhorse.

 

Christianity makes claims that are not simple and that shouldn't be accepted as such.

 

Each and every claim should be rigorously and skeptically examined .

 

Which means abandoning simplicity and digging relentlessly into the details.

 

Therefore, championing simplicity and being satisfied with keeping things simple is an act of intellectual dishonesty and cowardice.

 

This thread is an act of intellectual dishonesty and cowardice, Ironhorse.

 

Christianity makes claims that are not simple and that shouldn't be accepted as such.

 

Each and every claim should be rigorously and skeptically examined .

 

Which means abandoning simplicity and digging relentlessly into the details.

 

Therefore, championing simplicity and being satisfied with keeping things simple is an act of intellectual dishonesty and cowardice.

 

I love the Christian message for its simplicity.

I don’t need a priest, a guru or obey long list of man-made requirements.

I simply believe in Christ and go from there.

 

The "believe in Christ" is the simplicity of the Gospel message. It is where I start an a believer.

I totally agree with you that there are concepts and passages of scriptures that are far from simple

and some I do not understand, but if you insists on turning over every "jot and tittle" in place before you respond to the message of verses like John 3:16, it is never going to happen because it can't be done.

 

God has not chosen to reveal all or nor did he intend the scriptures to answer our every question. 

 

The scriptures do not record any account of a person who knews all about God. As Paul put it, we are looking through a glass darkly."

[Castiel233]

I think a big part of the Christian problem is it's lack of simplicity and coherence 

 

Book of Acts claims that if you call on Jesus, He will save you

 

Other books claim, many are called few are chosen. If the Bible is true, nearly everyone goes to the second death, which is an eternity into screaming and never ending fire.

 

Some books say honour your family, other books in the canon say to hate and abandon them.

 

Jesus says that those that believe can do the works that He, himself did.

 

Paul and Peter argued over points of doctrine.

 

None of this is a Christians fault, of course, they are stuck with the Bible as it is, not as they want it to be.

 

To add:The simple message I have read from the Bible, is one of hatred, not love. That message is much more simple to read and is far simpler than salvation 

 

God kills Jews for touching the Ark

God Kills Jews for asking for food other than manna 

God drowns almost all the Earth, for he laments in His own creation 

God personally kills the first born in Egypt 

God has his own son killed

God is the author of darkness and of evil

God sends strong delusions 

God dips his arrows in blood

God laughs at the sufferings of humans 

God is a man of war 

Davis orders a census, God goes on a killing spree

God likes the smell of animal offerings 

God loves slavery

God winks at rape

The punishment for not listening to a priest........kill them, says the Lord 

Death to gays, death to non virgin wives 

Kids arguing back.......put em to death......says the Lord

Catch someone having an affair....why death to the pair of them (surprise surprise) 

The sentence for not being a believer in Yahweh......(drum roll please) execution 

Look, there is someone working  on a the Sabbath.......kill them, says the Bible 

 

and so on

Death, killing and human suffering, needless human suffering  is the simplicity of the Christian message........

 

To be fair, the horror of Christianity  is not the fault of Iron Horse, or in fact any believer, but a horror it is, regardless 

[Jeff]

Everything is simple when you start with an answer and work backwards ignoring anything that confuses, conflicts, refutes, self-contradicts, etc.

 

I love the simplicity of turtles all the way down. It just resonates with me. Also I love the simplicity and the simplicity too.

[yunea]

As simple as being with a delusional, abusive person.

 

"Oh, he says a lot of stuff I don't understand. He loves to cause and watch violence, he sees talking animals, he has a thing for sacrifice so bad he'd sacrifice himself to himself if he could.

But he also says he's my lord and savior and I just need to go from there and trust him.

So I just don't think about the things I don't understand. It's easy that way.

Also he says he will hunt me down and torture me for the rest of my life if I don't believe he is my savior, so yeah, I believe he is."

 

Seriously. What are you trying to do IH? Are we supposed to be like, "oh, I wish I'd thought of THAT, that it's actually simple! I'm secretly going back to church!"?

 

What is there in your lifestyle that we should want for ourselves?

 

What do you actually have that we should want?

[L.B.]

This is the secret fantasy of every Christard who thinks this shit is real.

 

They LOVE it when someone "accepts" the magical bullshit, but a very, very close second is this thrill that they get when they think,

 

"someone is disagreeing with the truth... I'm just planting seeds/being persecuted/standing strong in the face of unbelief"... or something similar. Pick one. They vary depending on the kind of

opposition the Christard faces.

 

These idiots have a martyr complex like no one I've ever experienced before. There are almost no TrueBeliever types who ever listen to anything that contradicts their horseshit. They simply stick their heads further in the sand and tell themselves that there are all kinds of reasons why we don't believe them, and no good reason for them to believe reason.

 

Any sort of conflict or disagreement has them bragging to one another that they are being "attacked" for their faith and/or are "under assault from the Devil".

 

So, yes, Yunea, IronTurd really does try to convince himself that there's magical power in his bullshit religion and that some day, one of us is going to see the error of our ways and come running back to jeezus, all because IH has a "simple" explanation, as if no one ever tried that before.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Gawd sed it. I b'leev it. That settles it. Howllilujah!

[bornagainathiest]

This thread is an act of intellectual dishonesty and cowardice, Ironhorse.

 

Christianity makes claims that are not simple and that shouldn't be accepted as such.

 

Each and every claim should be rigorously and skeptically examined .

 

Which means abandoning simplicity and digging relentlessly into the details.

 

Therefore, championing simplicity and being satisfied with keeping things simple is an act of intellectual dishonesty and cowardice.

 

I love the Christian message for its simplicity.

I don’t need a priest, a guru or obey long list of man-made requirements.

I simply believe in Christ and go from there.

 

The "believe in Christ" is the simplicity of the Gospel message. It is where I start an a believer.

I totally agree with you that there are concepts and passages of scriptures that are far from simple

and some I do not understand, but if you insists on turning over every "jot and tittle" in place before you respond to the message of verses like John 3:16, it is never going to happen because it can't be done.

 

God has not chosen to reveal all or nor did he intend the scriptures to answer our every question. 

 

The scriptures do not record any account of a person who knews all about God. As Paul put it, we are looking through a glass darkly."

.

.

.

Ironhorse,

 

Your 'simple belief' in Christ requires you to believe that god created everything, as claimed in Genesis 1 : 1.

 

The gospels are NOT where you should start.

 

Because if everything that exists wasn't created by God, then this falsifies Genesis 1 : 1, making the rest of the Bible also false.

 

As a believer, you should start at the beginning, not near the end.

 

Before you can 'simply believe' in Christ, you first have to rigorously and skeptically examine the evidence for claim that god created everything.

 

Genesis and not Christ is where you should start.

 

Go!

[♦ ficino ♦]

As simple as being with a delusional, abusive person.

 

"Oh, he says a lot of stuff I don't understand. He loves to cause and watch violence, he sees talking animals, he has a thing for sacrifice so bad he'd sacrifice himself to himself if he could.

But he also says he's my lord and savior and I just need to go from there and trust him.

So I just don't think about the things I don't understand. It's easy that way.

Also he says he will hunt me down and torture me for the rest of my life if I don't believe he is my savior, so yeah, I believe he is."

 

Seriously. What are you trying to do IH? Are we supposed to be like, "oh, I wish I'd thought of THAT, that it's actually simple! I'm secretly going back to church!"?

 

What is there in your lifestyle that we should want for ourselves?

 

What do you actually have that we should want?

yunea, to save bandwidth, I was going to cut and paste yours, but it's all gold! And I love your summary of the simple Gospel message. Put that way, it's almost enough to get me back to church!