The Simplicity Of The Christian Message

[bornagainathiest]

 

sin

 

Ironhorse,

 

Thank you for admitting the Christian message isn't as simple as you claimed at the beginning of this thread.

 

There, you wrote that you... 'simply believe in Christ and go from there'.

 

But now you are now saying that the Christian message also requires a belief in... sin.

 

So why didn't you say this 103 days ago, in your opening post?

 

 

(bump!)

[bornagainathiest]

A copy of the above post has just been PMed to Ironhorse's Inbox.

 

I patiently await his reply here.

[midniterider]

Sorry I missed out on these wonderful apologetics...

 

 

Thumb says:

"Hey, you truly want a new car that won't crash or hurt others as long as you are truly willing to follow the driver's manual? It's easy to use as long as you follow the builder's instructions, but decrepit minds won't understand the instructions unless they willingly pledge to let the builder instruct their minds to rightly operate it (1 Timothy 1:8). It's worth 100 Trillion dollars"
"I don't think I can afford one"
"Oh, but it's free and already paid for!"
"Oh, cool! So no catch?"
"No, no catch; your hoopty ain't takin' you nowhere. If you admit that & desire a real prized vehicle (Isaiah 65:24) then it's yours for the taking. (1 John 1:9)"

 

Too bad there's a Mormon driver's manual, JW driver's manual, Pentecostal, SDA, Catholic, Protestant, Lutheran, Episcopal, Presbyterian, etc etc .... all for the same car. Different denominations claim to speak on behalf of the 'Builder' and also say the builder is alive. Why doesn't the Builder just make a youtube video? Could it be that the builder does not exist (except in one's imagination) ? Where's the builder? And Where's the car?

 

.....................

If a policeman pardons you from breaking the law & you were facing having your license revoked, would you willingly go back to breaking the law again?
If you're impertinent & arrogantly tell the officer "I want to be pardoned & I have no intention of keeping the speed limit or obeying seat belt rules or stopping at traffic lights & stop signs or keeping any other stinking driving rule there is!" Should the officer still pardon you?

 

People get their license suspended...and later earn it back. People get their license revoked. And later get it back. True story. The justice system allows many chances for people to redeem themselves. I think several chances is fair. One chance is unfair.

 

The wages of sin is death.

 

Death is fine. I'm good with that. Eternal torment is unfair.

 

To die all a created being has to do is sin one time.

 

So if I steal a Snickers bar I get the death sentence? Frankly I think everyone dies whether they sin or not, no?

 

We can't pay the wage for eternal life; only someone who never ever sin can & did.

 

I don't need eternal life. This short one will suffice.

Some people are under the mistaken impression that Jesus' death automatically pardons everybody. No. His death made the provision to pardon everybody but a God of love is a God of choice & He will never want someone to worship & love Him against their will. Therefore, not everybody will choose to be saved. So, salvation is free but believing is a choice.

 

Why is there such an urgency to save people from non-existence? Why is there such a fear of non-existence?

 

----------------

[midniterider]

"... when you say perish, do you mean bodily perish or spiritually perish?

Perish is what happens IF a person does not repent and be saved from [insert three letter word]."

 

^

Most (believer or not) did & will bodily perish but believers will not be destroyed bodily & spiritually (2 Corinthians 5:1; Matthew 10:28).

The human race is on probation. As soon as we're born we're terminal; we are mortal, we die. Only God can rescue the perishing.

 

Why is perishing 'bad' ?

[midniterider]

When I read 1 Corinthians 15:22 which says:

"For in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive."

It shows that as head of the race Adam passed on death to his posterity but not sin & Christ passed life to His spiritual posterity. Humans sin by choice and all sinned (save one) & will sin. All people miss the mark, we don't live up to God's ideal. Christ did & He made the provision for everyone to live eternally if they choose.

The first death most humans experienced or will experience because we're living on a cursed planet but the second death (Revelation 2:11) will be experienced by those who had an understanding of right & wrong & chose the wrong-- & this does not include babies (Acts 17:30)! Sinners will pay the wages for their known & willful sins. The amount of work they do will determine the amount of wages they get. No sinner is immortal, that means their work was/is & will not be everlasting, therefore their wage will not be everlasting either. They will cease to exist eventually.

 

 

"They will cease to exist eventually."  Why is this an issue?

[midniterider]

 

The actual empirical evidence demonstrates that all carbon based lifeforms on Earth, including homo sapiens, eventually die, perish, cease to function, or whatever you want to call it.

 

Wishful thinking otherwise does not change this reality.

So you're agreeing with the bible which says this planet is cursed & entropy & death occurs?

What hope does atheism offer anyone?

 

 

Why is 'hope' valuable? Why is scientific evidence worthless?

[midniterider]

I did happen to wonder where you went, BAA. But I've been away from Ex-c a lot and didnt notice this thread had more stuff in it. Glad you're back.

[bornagainathiest]

I did happen to wonder where you went, BAA. But I've been away from Ex-c a lot and didnt notice this thread had more stuff in it. Glad you're back.

 

Thanks Rider.  

 

Family-related stuff took me away for a while.

 

All ok now thanks.

[Jedah]

For every complex philosophical issue there is an answer that is simple, easy to understand, and wrong.

[LogicalFallacy]

For every complex philosophical issue there is an answer that is simple, easy to understand, and wrong.

Goddidit

[bornagainathiest]

On 2/13/2017 at 5:02 PM, bornagainathiest said:

Posted February 13 · Report post

On 1/18/2017 at 11:01 PM, bornagainathiest said:

 

  On 1/18/2017 at 8:50 PM, ironhorse said:

sin

 

Ironhorse,

 

Thank you for admitting the Christian message isn't as simple as you claimed at the beginning of this thread.

 

There, you wrote that you... 'simply believe in Christ and go from there'.

 

But now you are now saying that the Christian message also requires a belief in... sin.

 

So why didn't you say this 103 days ago, in your opening post?

 

 

(bump!)

Re-bump!

 

[bornagainathiest]

A copy of the above post has just been PMed to Ironhorse's Inbox.

 

I patiently await his reply here.

[bornagainathiest]

Posted February 25 · Report post

On 2/13/2017 at 5:02 PM, bornagainathiest said:

Posted February 13 · Report post

On 1/18/2017 at 11:01 PM, bornagainathiest said:

 

  On 1/18/2017 at 8:50 PM, ironhorse said:

sin

 

Ironhorse,

 

Thank you for admitting the Christian message isn't as simple as you claimed at the beginning of this thread.

 

There, you wrote that you... 'simply believe in Christ and go from there'.

 

But now you are now saying that the Christian message also requires a belief in... sin.

 

So why didn't you say this 103 days ago, in your opening post?

 

 

(bump!)

Re-bump!

Re-re-bump!

[bornagainathiest]

A copy of the above post has just been PMed to Ironhorse's Inbox.

 

I patiently await his reply here.

[bornagainathiest]

A copy of the above post has just been PMed to Ironhorse's Inbox.

 

I patiently await his reply here.

 

(I shouted this at Ironhorse, using the 'loudest' font size I could manage.  72.)

 

Thank you for ...

[bornagainathiest]

A copy of post # 238 has just been posted to Ironhorse's Inbox.

 

I patiently await his answer here.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[ironhorse]

Ironhorse,

 Thank you for admitting the Christian message isn't as simple as you claimed at the beginning of this thread.

 There, you wrote that you... 'simply believe in Christ and go from there'.

 But now you are now saying that the Christian message also requires a belief in... sin.

 So why didn't you say this 103 days ago, in your opening post?

~ BAA

 

 

The first post:

I love the Christian message for its simplicity.

I don’t need a priest, a guru or obey long list of man-made requirements.

I simply believe in Christ and go from there.

 

 

It is evident, to me, that your intent is to press the idea that the Christian faith is a complicated confusing endeavor that entails a total understanding of all things God.

Evidently you view God in a much smaller way than mine.

I’m glad God made salvation easy. I’m glad it is not complicated.

 

John 3:16

 

 

 

[sdelsolray]

That's our Ironhorse, as passive-aggressive as ever.

[Joshpantera]

1 hour ago, ironhorse said:

 

Ironhorse,

 Thank you for admitting the Christian message isn't as simple as you claimed at the beginning of this thread.

 There, you wrote that you... 'simply believe in Christ and go from there'.

 But now you are now saying that the Christian message also requires a belief in... sin.

 So why didn't you say this 103 days ago, in your opening post?

~ BAA

 

 

The first post:

I love the Christian message for its simplicity.

I don’t need a priest, a guru or obey long list of man-made requirements.

I simply believe in Christ and go from there.

 

 

It is evident, to me, that your intent is to press the idea that the Christian faith is a complicated confusing endeavor that entails a total understanding of all things God.

Evidently you view God in a much smaller way than mine.

I’m glad God made salvation easy. I’m glad it is not complicated.

 

John 3:16

 

 

So believing in something (John 3:16) makes it so? 

 

I could write a verse saying, 'The Flying Spaghetti Monster so loved the planet earth that he sent down his one and only Celestial Teacup, that whoever believes in his one and only begotten Celestial Teacup will not perish, but have everlasting life.'  

 

No matter who or how many people believe the assertion above, that doesn't make it so and certainly not because they blindly accept it and believe it to be so. You can believe something till you're blue in the face and that doesn't necessarily make it so. Especially a supernatural claim with absolutely zero merit backing it up. 

 

I could say, 'See, it's really simple. Just believe in the Celestial Teacup and you'll join him in eternal life.' Or I could say, 'All who call on the name of the Celestial Teacup will be saved.' 

 

Does that mean that (1) a Celestial Teapot even exists or (2) believing that a Celestial Teapot exists and rose from the grave will give me eternal life, or (3) that eternal life is even possible in the first place in order to believe in? 

 

 

 

[ironhorse]

A “Celestial Teacup” does not have a universe or a living world I can see and touch. A “Celestial Teacup” does not have mountains of history, literature, art, or music I can read and hear.

 

[LogicalFallacy]

Ironhorse, if its not to much trouble, pop on over to the 'In the beginning' thread and answer our questions there please - been waiting for a looonnnggg time.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

On 10/7/2016 at 8:16 PM, ironhorse said:

I love the Christian message for its simplicity.

I don’t need a priest, a guru or obey long list of man-made requirements.

I simply believe in Christ and go from there.

I cannot agree with this statement Iron Horse. It is not simple at all. When one begins to delve deep into various doctrines and theologies it gets very complicated. Christian churches are at war betwixt themselves over almost every doctrine you can think of. 

 

The rapture

Where heaven will be

Foot washing

Baptism

Speaking in tongues

Interracial marriage

Homosexual marriages

Male vs. Female preachers

the day of the sabbath

Trinity

Creation

Whether we go straight to heaven or hell or stay in the grave

Using instruments in church or not

Hymnals vs modern christian music

Confessing to a priest or not

 

I mean the list goes on and on forever. There is absolutely nothing simple anymore about christianity. Maybe there was at one time but God doesn't seem to be to keen on setting the record straight. You would think that if he existed and saw what was going on with his word that he would want us to know what he really wants out of us. But sadly many of us have prayed for that to happen with no response. 

 

     Maybe to you it is simple. Maybe your church keeps it simple. If you are a lay member who just attends church and is content with not looking into the faith as a whole then it probably is a lot simpler for you. I honestly applaud your faith tho iron horse. I hope you keep it and don't have to suffer the disappointment we have. I have known many a good man and woman that are Christian. I remember the times I preached on fighting the good fight and keeping the faith. And looking forward to hearing my savior say well done my good and faithful servant. Nothing filled me with more pride than knowing that my saviour was proud of me. 

 

Good luck my friend,

DB

[bornagainathiest]

Ironhorse,

 Thank you for admitting the Christian message isn't as simple as you claimed at the beginning of this thread.

 There, you wrote that you... 'simply believe in Christ and go from there'.

 But now you are now saying that the Christian message also requires a belief in... sin.

 So why didn't you say this 103 days ago, in your opening post?

~ BAA

 

You're putting words into my mouth, Ironhorse.

 

In the above quotation I did not say that the Christian faith is a complicated and confusing endeavor that entails a total understanding of God.

I said that your initial claim of the simplicity of Christianity (simply believe in Christ and go from there) isn't as simple as you make out.    

This 'total understanding of God' schtick is the spin you're trying to put on my argument.  

Those are words I didn't say, but which you are putting into my mouth.

 

Instead, my argument is that in your OP you claimed that ALL anyone needs to be a Christian is belief in Christ.

 

I love the Christian message for its simplicity.

I don’t need a priest, a guru or obey long list of man-made requirements.

I simply believe in Christ and go from there.

 

Yet, after persistent questioning (from Dec 30 to Jan 18) about what it is that Jesus came to Earth to save us from, in post # 214 you finally gave an honest answer.  "Sin."

 

So, Ironhorse can anyone be a true Christian by 'simply believing in Christ' or must they also believe in the existence of sin?

 

(That's just two things btw.  Christ and sin.  No need for a total understanding of God.)

 

Please answer.

 

Can anyone be a true Christian by believing in only Christ, yet not believing in sin?

 

Please answer.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

On 1/18/2017 at 0:09 PM, Thumbelina said:

Yes, I realize that, friend. Most people who become atheistic did not get a good, practical picture of God that will offer them something better than what the world offers.
 

Oh really? Do you actually believe this? Does it make you feel better or sleep better at night thinking we just didn't get the full picture of God? Hmmm let me try n see if I got a full picture.

 

While knowing that I was lost and in need of a sacrifice so that I could walk with him as he walked with Adam before they sinned in the garden of eden. He made a plan. A plan that would end up causing his own son to be beaten, tortured, and die on a cross. The ultimate plan of salvation for his lost children. Jesus willing to be the sacrifice for us was born of a Virgin. Lived his life without sin and In his 30s he was baptised by John (his cousin) and began his ministry and his journey to the cross preaching a new gospel of love and faith. 

       In the Garden of Gethsemane he pleaded with his father knowing the end was near to let this cup pass from him but that not his will be done but the fathers. Having his answer the guards came to take him and he went willingly even tho at any point of time he could have called ten thousand of gods angels to vanquish his enemies.

      But he didn't. He loved us. He wanted us to be saved and he knew without his sacrifice we would be forever bound to an everlasting hell. He submitted and let these men beat him beyond recognition, revile, mock, and spit on him, Strip him of his cloths, nail him to a cross in the place of a murderer, place a crown of thorns upon his head whose thorns would have dug deep beneath the skin. In agony he hung from the cross held their by the love he had for us! His friends! And his sheep! Just so we could be saved. Someone as lowly as me! 

        Even now I begin to cry when I think about this. This is what I believed. From the pulpit I would preach this message with tears streaming from my face just as they are now. Such love! Such sacrifice! For an unworthy man like me! Is this the practical picture your speaking of? A God of Love and mercy willing to do ANYTHING to redeem us? Even to sacrifice his own son? Is that what your talking about? Because if it is then I think I had a pretty good grasp of the concept. 

       Maybe now you can understand the agony I felt when I realised it was just a very well crafted story meant to fill my heart with those emotions and the devotion to serve Jesus. Maybe you can imagine the disappointment when God stopped answering my prayers or when I stopped feeling his spirit. Something I never thought would happen after my salvation experience. I believe every word in that bible until the holes became to obvious for me to cover up with a simple excuse or an apologetic statement. Can you imagine the shock I had when I found out that the exodus never happened when  I was genuinely trying to find proof for my son who had decided not to believe. Which also lead to me discovering the origins of my God and realising the systematic evolution of a polytheistic religion into a monotheistic. 

     When your faith in the bible ends...... even a well crafted story like that of Jesus begins to fall apart.

On 1/18/2017 at 0:09 PM, Thumbelina said:

... but if we're realistic we see that many people use fig leaves of self-medicating- alcoholism, materialism, escapism etc., to deal with this transient life & world?

The peace that this world offers is based primarily on material success. What happens when all that crumbles? Can atheistic beliefs give hope to people. Even the rich tend not to be happy. People want to steal from them or use them etc. & I believe we're all made with a yearning for God.



Ficino, I think you realize I care about unbelievers not perishing for the reason of them misunderstanding God's love for them, right?

 

I do know what happens when material success crumbles. I lost a house, a wife, two cars, and had to file bankruptcy during the housing market crisis. But I kept the faith for 5 more years after that. I held onto Jesus when I went through the storm. So I can definitely tell you. 

       Can you tell me what happens when the bible crumbles? Because I can. I stood strong during a material melt down. But buckled at the knees, (sometimes literally in prayer) when the bible began to crumble. He tried me and I kept the faith. I tried him and he failed. 

     I'm just gonna leave ya with that Cuz well... living it over again gets a little depressing and it's time for me to sleep anyway as I work nights so I'm gonna stop here.

 

Dark Bishop

[Joshpantera]

18 hours ago, ironhorse said:

A “Celestial Teacup” does not have a universe or a living world I can see and touch. A “Celestial Teacup” does not have mountains of history, literature, art, or music I can read and hear.

 

 

So then you agree with me that simply believing in the existence of the Celestial Teacup doesn't necessarily make it so? Do you feel that Belief in the CT has no correlation to it's existence in this case?