Jeff Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 IMO IH is the perfection of the Internet troll. And I'm still not convinced he's trying to be one... so again perfection. Look at the effort people put into a serious attempt at real conversation. Hours people spend rebutting, instructing, clarifying. He goes and comes back with another soppy comment to stir the pot and once again he will never admit to illogic or gross error in his application of scripture. Gold ? troll award (aware or unaware) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted March 28, 2017 Moderator Share Posted March 28, 2017 On 08/10/2016 at 1:16 PM, ironhorse said: I love the Christian message for its simplicity. I don’t need a priest, a guru or obey long list of man-made requirements. I simply believe in Christ and go from there. IH, do you believe that Christ is the son of God? If yes, you believe the virgin birth is central to Christ being the "son of God"? If yes, the Virgin birth hinges on a single prophesy in Isaiah. One that can quite easily be shown to be quote mined by Matthew out of context. Considering Christ hinges on original sin being fact, prophesies fulfilled etc, and considering all these can be shown to be false, your message might not be as simple as claimed. You can believe in Christ, but your claim of simplicity fails. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted March 28, 2017 Author Share Posted March 28, 2017 This is part of what Dark Bishop’s posted on #247 The rapture Where heaven will be Foot washing Baptism Speaking in tongues Interracial marriage Homosexual marriages Male vs. Female preachers the day of the sabbath Trinity Creation Whether we go straight to heaven or hell or stay in the grave Using instruments in church or not Hymnals vs modern christian music Confessing to a priest or not I mean the list goes on and on forever. There is absolutely nothing simple anymore about christianity. This what I posted: I love the Christian message for its simplicity. I don’t need a priest, a guru or obey long list of man-made requirements. I simply believe in Christ and go from there. The Christian message, the good news (The Gospel) is news about a person. It is about Christ. This is the simplicity of the faith. It is a simple message that is easy for the educated and uneducated to understand. The message of John 3:16 is very clear. This idea that in order to accept this message about Christ you must have a FULL UNDERSTANDING and KNOWLEDGE of all the subjects posted above or any other that might be posted here is not a simple idea. What person can claim FULL UNDERSTANDING of a religion or this physical world? Also concerning Dark Bishop’s list, are we to think that every believer (or church) must agree on every issue within the faith or it all falls apart? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted March 28, 2017 Moderator Share Posted March 28, 2017 For God so loved the world, that he wiped out humanity in a great flood a mere 1600 years after creation, that he sent his chosen people on a bloody rampage through Canaan, that he let 6 million of his people be burned, gassed, raped, tortured and mutilated, that he lets children by the millions die of each year from horrific diseases... that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life, and everyone else burns in hell. (They left the last bit off) Praise the lord I feel much better for the simplicity of it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.B. Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 IH, my dear... almighty deities that want their will obeyed don't leave all those things open to interpretation. This isn't a work of fiction (cough*cough) that the reader can take in while "filling in the blanks". This is the stuff of literal, eternal life and eternal death and torture. There is nothing unimportant about whether a certain ceremony pleases or offends a deity. You must have seen the Indiana Jones series of films, no? Anyone with a modicum of education - or even a shred of superstitious belief - in those movies knows what not to do in order to please the gods involved. They all know what it means to be "worthy" or "unworthy". Nobody is saying that someone has to have a full knowledge and complete understanding of all those points listed above in order to BECOME a "believer", IronHorse. What they ARE saying is that neither you nor anyone else can talk about "THE Christian Message" because what you say is "so simple" is only the beginning. There are people out there who would not consider you a Christian at all if you disagreed with them about one or another of those doctrinal points AFTER you accepted your "simple" 3:16 message. And anyway, your bible says that TrueBelievers™ WILL, in fact, agree on every issue, and that disagreement is sin and that there is CLEARLY an understanding from the writers' perspective of what agreement is and what disagreement is. You, nor any of your so-called fellow Christians, don't know what agreement is, because the writers of those fairy-tales didn't say in specific. Those writings weren't meant for you or for people in your world today. They were stolen from a Jewish sect that wouldn't recognize your religion at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.B. Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 You (and the rest of the so-called Christians who bother coming here) have also never answered my question, nor even tried to answer it: What makes YOUR version of Christianity, the one that contains YOUR answers to the questions concerning the existence and preeminence and authority of your god, the one that should be used to "prove" god to us, or to anyone? What makes the way YOU practice Christianity the "right" one, the one that should be the opponent in the "true faith vs atheism" fight? See, every battle has two sides, essentially, and those two sides have to know one another, and know the "weaponry" and tactics of their opponents as best they can. What is it about YOUR version of Christianity that makes it so RIGHT that it is the answer, the antidote, the response to what you say is wrong with us, with the world? Why aren't the Seventh-Day Adventists right, and you a heretic? Why aren't the Apostolic Church right, and you wrong? Why not the Swedenborgians? The Rosicrucians? Patripassians? The answer to "two plus two" is FOUR, not "seventy-three, depending on how you look at it, but I prayed and the Lord showed me 183, but we're all just simple Christians." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 57 minutes ago, ironhorse said: This is part of what Dark Bishop’s posted on #247 The rapture Where heaven will be Foot washing Baptism Speaking in tongues Interracial marriage Homosexual marriages Male vs. Female preachers the day of the sabbath Trinity Creation Whether we go straight to heaven or hell or stay in the grave Using instruments in church or not Hymnals vs modern christian music Confessing to a priest or not I mean the list goes on and on forever. There is absolutely nothing simple anymore about christianity. This what I posted: I love the Christian message for its simplicity. I don’t need a priest, a guru or obey long list of man-made requirements. I simply believe in Christ and go from there. The Christian message, the good news (The Gospel) is news about a person. It is about Christ. This is the simplicity of the faith. It is a simple message that is easy for the educated and uneducated to understand. The message of John 3:16 is very clear. This idea that in order to accept this message about Christ you must have a FULL UNDERSTANDING and KNOWLEDGE of all the subjects posted above or any other that might be posted here is not a simple idea. What person can claim FULL UNDERSTANDING of a religion or this physical world? Also concerning Dark Bishop’s list, are we to think that every believer (or church) must agree on every issue within the faith or it all falls apart? Unlike the DarkBishop, I am asking you only about two things, Ironhorse. Just two. Not a full understanding of a religion. Just two things. Not a full understanding of this physical world. Two things. That's all. Two things. Jesus Christ is one thing. The other thing is sin. So that's one thing plus another thing. 1 + 1 = 2 Two things, Ironhorse. Here are my two (2) questions about those two (2) things. Can anyone be a true Christian by 'simply believing in Christ' or must they also believe in the existence of sin? Can anyone be a true Christian by believing in only Christ, yet not believing in sin? Please answer these two questions. Please answer both questions. Please do not answer just one of these two questions. Please do not change these questions in any way. Please do not answer any other questions but these two when you reply to this post. Please do not answer anyone else's questions as if you were answering my two questions. Please do not answer a question or questions of your own making which you might substitute for my two questions. Please do not cite or quote anything from anywhere else when answering my two questions. Please confine yourself to answering only my two questions when you reply to this post. Please answer my two questions honestly. Please do not try to avoid answering my two questions. Please do not attempt to say that you do not understand my two questions. Please do not force me to keep on asking you to answer my two questions. Please do not force me to PM these questions to you. Thanks, BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ DarkBishop ☆ Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Lol BAA, I want to reply to his post concerning my list but I think I will wait until he answers your two questions. Because he does seem to be avoiding them. DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 2 minutes ago, DarkBishop said: Lol BAA, I want to reply to his post concerning my list but I think I will wait until he answers your two questions. Because he does seem to be avoiding them. DB Thanks DB. However, I feel that I should advise you that (just as I predicted it would, years ago) Ironhorse's 'ministry' in Ex-C has devolved largely into a clash of wills between him and us - the Ex-Christians who engage with him. You may not want to wait months and months - because we are still waiting for him to answer questions from last year. He has not yet answered and we will not give up asking him to answer. Thanks, BAA. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 29, 2017 Super Moderator Share Posted March 29, 2017 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ DarkBishop ☆ Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 2 hours ago, bornagainathiest said: Thanks DB. However, I feel that I should advise you that (just as I predicted it would, years ago) Ironhorse's 'ministry' in Ex-C has devolved largely into a clash of wills between him and us - the Ex-Christians who engage with him. You may not want to wait months and months - because we are still waiting for him to answer questions from last year. He has not yet answered and we will not give up asking him to answer. Thanks, BAA. Alright, then I will probably reply sometime tonight or tomorrow. But in my personal opinion on your point. The answer would most definitely have to be yes. There would be no reason to believe that Christ died for your sins and accept him as Lord and savior if you weren't convinced of the weight of sin. Not to mention the punishmentality that goes along with sin which would either be Hell, or the alternative version according to some churches, eternal darkness/eternal separation from God. And also without that fear of punishment likewise there would be no need of accepting Jesus as savior. so really I know your trying to keep it down to 2 items for IH to reply on, But are actually 3 things required for salvation 1- a belief in sin and that you are a guilty partakers of that sin 1- a belief that there is a punishment for that sin that your guilty of. 1- a belief that Jesus took the punishment for that sin for you if you accept him as your own personal savior. 1+1+1=3 The bible likes the number 3 ? This is the 3 simple steps it takes to climb onto a beautiful golden jumping board and leap off into the pile of shit as I described in my post which I will refer to later. And as LB has already stated. There is nothing unimportant when it comes to the interpretation of beliefs that involve whether or not you recieve eternal life. DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted March 29, 2017 Author Share Posted March 29, 2017 Can anyone be a true Christian by 'simply believing in Christ' or must they also believe in the existence of sin? Can anyone be a true Christian by believing in only Christ, yet not believing in sin? ~ BAA 1. Yes, a person can be saved without understanding of what the scriptures teach about sin. A person is saved (declared righteous) not by his own theological view of sin or what he thinks is righteous or is sin, but by CHRIST. 2. Yes, I am justified through faith alone in Christ. I do not have to do anything to keep salvation in Christ. If I am in Christ, I can’t believe or not believe anything that will remove me from Christ. It is a done deal. Romans 8:30-39: The One who died for us—who was raised to life for us!—is in the presence of God at this very moment sticking up for us. Do you think anyone is going to be able to drive a wedge between us and Christ’s love for us? There is no way! Not trouble, not hard times, not hatred, not hunger, not homelessness, not bullying threats, not backstabbing, not even the worst sins listed in Scripture: They kill us in cold blood because they hate you. We’re sitting ducks; they pick us off one by one. None of this fazes us because Jesus loves us. I’m absolutely convinced that nothing—nothing living or dead, angelic or demonic, today or tomorrow, high or low, thinkable or unthinkable—absolutely nothing can get between us and God’s love because of the way that Jesus our Master has embraced us. NOTE: I am fully aware other passages state repentance (from sin) is necessary. Jesus said it is necessary (Luke 13:1-5); Paul said it is necessary (Acts 17:30, etc.); Peter said it is necessary (2 Pet. 3:9). Saving faith includes repentance, but repentance is not doing anything. It is not a deed, act, work, or church rite. Rather, it is a change of the direction of one’s heart. This occurs in one’s spirit at the moment of salvation. Once that change occurs the process of sanctification begins. Sanctification, being made holy, does not occur at the moment of salvation, but is progressive. It is an on-going process which will not be complete or reach perfection in this life. Thus, a Christian in this world is a saint and sinner. Each Christian is at a different point on this journey to sanctification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ DarkBishop ☆ Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 32 minutes ago, ironhorse said: 2. Yes, I am justified through faith alone in Christ. I do not have to do anything to keep salvation in Christ. If I am in Christ, I can’t believe or not believe anything that will remove me from Christ. It is a done deal. So a lot of the people here were true christians at one point in time. If this is the case do you believe we are still going to heaven even tho we have lost faith? DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 17 minutes ago, DarkBishop said: So a lot of the people here were true christians at one point in time. If this is the case do you believe we are still going to heaven even tho we have lost faith? DB We have a better chance of going to distant planets than heaven, because, unlike heaven other planets actually exists. Both Heaven and Hell are mythical places created by humans as a necessary part of establishing a new religion (Christianity). Religions must have a reward (Heaven) for being obedient to their dogma and a punishment (Hell) for those that challenge leaderships authority. Without Rewards and Punishment religion could not control their adherents, or attract new believers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ DarkBishop ☆ Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Just now, Geezer said: We have a better chance of going to distant planets than heaven, because, unlike heaven other planets actually exists. Both Heaven and Hell are mythical places created by humans as a necessary part of establishing a new religion (Christianity). Religions must have a reward (Heaven) for being obedient to their dogma and a punishment (Hell) for those that challenge leaderships authority. Yes I know. I'm just trying to get IHs thoughts on his statement and how it relates to us ExChristians. I have a good idea to what the response will be. DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 2 minutes ago, DarkBishop said: Yes I know. I'm just trying to get IHs thoughts on his statement and how it relates to us ExChristians. I have a good idea to what the response will be. DB Iron Horse is just playing with ya. He's been around here for years. I suppose he's looking for lost sheep to save, but I don't think he's ever found one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 2 hours ago, ironhorse said: Can anyone be a true Christian by 'simply believing in Christ' or must they also believe in the existence of sin? Can anyone be a true Christian by believing in only Christ, yet not believing in sin? ~ BAA 1. Yes, a person can be saved without understanding of what the scriptures teach about sin. A person is saved (declared righteous) not by his own theological view of sin or what he thinks is righteous or is sin, but by CHRIST. 2. Yes, I am justified through faith alone in Christ. I do not have to do anything to keep salvation in Christ. If I am in Christ, I can’t believe or not believe anything that will remove me from Christ. It is a done deal. Romans 8:30-39: The One who died for us—who was raised to life for us!—is in the presence of God at this very moment sticking up for us. Do you think anyone is going to be able to drive a wedge between us and Christ’s love for us? There is no way! Not trouble, not hard times, not hatred, not hunger, not homelessness, not bullying threats, not backstabbing, not even the worst sins listed in Scripture: They kill us in cold blood because they hate you. We’re sitting ducks; they pick us off one by one. None of this fazes us because Jesus loves us. I’m absolutely convinced that nothing—nothing living or dead, angelic or demonic, today or tomorrow, high or low, thinkable or unthinkable—absolutely nothing can get between us and God’s love because of the way that Jesus our Master has embraced us. NOTE: I am fully aware other passages state repentance (from sin) is necessary. Jesus said it is necessary (Luke 13:1-5); Paul said it is necessary (Acts 17:30, etc.); Peter said it is necessary (2 Pet. 3:9). Saving faith includes repentance, but repentance is not doing anything. It is not a deed, act, work, or church rite. Rather, it is a change of the direction of one’s heart. This occurs in one’s spirit at the moment of salvation. Once that change occurs the process of sanctification begins. Sanctification, being made holy, does not occur at the moment of salvation, but is progressive. It is an on-going process which will not be complete or reach perfection in this life. Thus, a Christian in this world is a saint and sinner. Each Christian is at a different point on this journey to sanctification. Ironhorse, Re: # 1. You claim that all a person needs to be saved from sin is to believe that Jesus exists? That they can be ignorant of what sin is, ignorant of their own sin and ignorant of Jesus' role as their savior from the wages of sin? But then you add that a saving faith includes repentance. So, how can they repent and be saved if they don't know what sin is and don't know that they need to repent? You've declared that a saving faith is one of repentance. Therefore, using the logic of your own argument, an unrepentant person who believes in the existence of Jesus CANNOT be saved. Unrepentant belief in Jesus does not save. That's what you wrote. Re: # 2. No. If you need to repent of your sin, then you must know that you need to do this. And you must do it. Therefore, faith alone in the existence of Jesus is NOT a saving faith. (You declared this in your reply.) You do not have to do anything to keep salvation in Christ, that is agreed. But that is not what I asked you. I didn't say anything about keeping salvation. Once again, you've substituted your own wording for mine - and I specifically asked you not to do that. You say that if you are in Christ, nothing can remove you from Christ. That is accepted. But you cannot be in Christ if you haven't repented of your sins. If you don't repent of your sins, then you will be taking your un-forgiven sins INTO Christ. That is an impossibility. You cannot become one with Christ with your burden of sin un-repented and un-forgiven You cannot enter the Kingdom un-forgiven. You cannot be part of the body of Christ because your un-forgiven sins keep you separate from Christ. To use your turn of phrase, you cannot change the direction of your heart unless you know that you need to. But if you are ignorant of your own sin, then you cannot have your heart changed. If God does the changing without your knowledge, then He is saving you without your knowledge. Therefore, you did not turn to Christ - you were turned towards Christ by God. The decision-making wasn't yours at all. Please answer this, Ironhorse. Can a person be saved without them consciously and deliberately knowing that they need to saved and then deciding to be saved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Drat. Foiled again. ^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted March 29, 2017 Author Share Posted March 29, 2017 Please answer this, Ironhorse. Can a person be saved without them consciously and deliberately knowing that they need to saved and then deciding to be saved? ~BAA What a person does or think or not know before accepting Christ does not matter. The taking away of sins (known or unknown) from the presence of God happens at the moment of conversion. It is through Christ alone, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. ~ Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV) I stand by my other answer. They are my answers. I’m not going to continue to try to defend them over and over. If I am wrong in my viewpoint, then I accept responsibility for misrepresenting the good news. I’m not here to win debates or chalk up points for the debate team. I'm expressing what I believe as a Christian. The good news about Jesus Christ is far from a complicated burden, it is a joy. This, I believe, is the essence of the message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted March 29, 2017 Moderator Share Posted March 29, 2017 On 29/03/2017 at 9:02 AM, LogicalFallacy said: IH, do you believe that Christ is the son of God? If yes, you believe the virgin birth is central to Christ being the "son of God"? If yes, the Virgin birth hinges on a single prophesy in Isaiah. One that can quite easily be shown to be quote mined by Matthew out of context. Considering Christ hinges on original sin being fact, prophesies fulfilled etc, and considering all these can be shown to be false, your message might not be as simple as claimed. You can believe in Christ, but your claim of simplicity fails. IH you seem to want to isolate John 3:16 as a simple message as if that verse stands on its own in a vacuum. News flash: It doesn't. Please answer my questions above. I have assumed your replies, but you might actually have different answers and surprise us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 29, 2017 Super Moderator Share Posted March 29, 2017 29 minutes ago, ironhorse said: The taking away of sins (known or unknown) from the presence of God happens at the moment of conversion. It is through Christ alone, What about sins (known or unknown) which are committed after the moment of conversion? Are they also covered by the conversion experience? Or are they dealt with on a sin-by-sin basis? Keep in mind, whichever answer you choose, you're going to open the Calvinist/Armenian can of worms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 55 minutes ago, ironhorse said: Please answer this, Ironhorse. Can a person be saved without them consciously and deliberately knowing that they need to saved and then deciding to be saved? ~BAA What a person does or think or not know before accepting Christ does not matter. The taking away of sins (known or unknown) from the presence of God happens at the moment of conversion. It is through Christ alone, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. ~ Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV) I stand by my other answer. They are my answers. I’m not going to continue to try to defend them over and over. If I am wrong in my viewpoint, then I accept responsibility for misrepresenting the good news. I’m not here to win debates or chalk up points for the debate team. I'm expressing what I believe as a Christian. The good news about Jesus Christ is far from a complicated burden, it is a joy. This, I believe, is the essence of the message. Ironhorse, Repentance is not a work that leads to salvation, even though you are trying to argue that it is. According to your repentance = works doctrine, both John the Baptist and Jesus called people save themselves by doing the work of repentance. Matthew 3 : 1 & 2. In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea 2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.” Matthew 4 : 17. 17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.” Luke 13 : 1 - 5. Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.” According to you, the apostle Peter, said that people could earn the Holy Spirit by the work of repentance. Acts 2 : 38 & 39. 38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” According to you, the Gentiles earned salvation through their work of repentance. Acts 11 : 18. 18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.” According to you, the apostle Paul clearly says that the work of repentance earns salvation. 2 Corinthians 7 : 10. 10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. According to you, Jesus, John the Baptist, Peter and Paul all agree that repentance is a work that earns salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 On 29/03/2017 at 5:44 PM, ironhorse said: Can anyone be a true Christian by 'simply believing in Christ' or must they also believe in the existence of sin? Can anyone be a true Christian by believing in only Christ, yet not believing in sin? ~ BAA 1. Yes, a person can be saved without understanding of what the scriptures teach about sin. A person is saved (declared righteous) not by his own theological view of sin or what he thinks is righteous or is sin, but by CHRIST. 2. Yes, I am justified through faith alone in Christ. I do not have to do anything to keep salvation in Christ. If I am in Christ, I can’t believe or not believe anything that will remove me from Christ. It is a done deal. (snip) NOTE: I am fully aware other passages state repentance (from sin) is necessary. Jesus said it is necessary (Luke 13:1-5); Paul said it is necessary (Acts 17:30, etc.); Peter said it is necessary (2 Pet. 3:9). Saving faith includes repentance, but repentance is not doing anything. It is not a deed, act, work, or church rite. Rather, it is a change of the direction of one’s heart. This occurs in one’s spirit at the moment of salvation. Once that change occurs the process of sanctification begins. Sanctification, being made holy, does not occur at the moment of salvation, but is progressive. It is an on-going process which will not be complete or reach perfection in this life. Thus, a Christian in this world is a saint and sinner. Each Christian is at a different point on this journey to sanctification. Since Ironhorse will not defend himself and since I will no longer press him for any further input, this message could well be the closing one of this thread. I won't be pressing him any further because what he has written here is more than enough to demonstrate his confusion and/or dishonesty. As I will now show. His two answers to my questions (see above) clearly and unambiguously assert that a person is saved by faith alone. Yet, just a few keystrokes later he undoes the certainty of that assertion by stating that Jesus, Paul and Peter hold repentance to be necessary for a saving faith. These two assertions are mutually exclusive and totally contradictory. They cannot both be true. It cannot be true that a person is saved by faith alone - if repentance is necessary for a saving faith. Either it is faith alone and repentance is unnecessary or it is faith and repentance together that saves a person. From Ironhorse's contradictory response I conclude that he is either confused or putting his personal spin the words of the Bible. Perhaps both. Either way, I cannot bring myself to trust him and I therefore recommend that anyone reading this thread declines to trust him too. Thanks, BAA. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 IH: The good news about Jesus Christ is far from a complicated burden, it is a joy. ... Then why are there Ex-Christians? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutrichuckles93 Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 Hah! If Christianity and the rules the Bible sets weren't a burden, I would have stayed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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