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Goodbye Jesus

The Simplicity Of The Christian Message


ironhorse

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So, you still can't simply answer the question?

 

Does EVERY verse in the bible mean EXACTLY what it says?

 

Yes or No Thumperina?

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So, you still can't simply answer the question?

 

Does EVERY verse in the bible mean EXACTLY what it says?

 

Yes or No Thumperina?

I told you, you're trying to use a loaded question. It's casuistry & I'm not havin' it, ya hear? wink.png

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Have what you will. You asked if there was anything too difficult for god and I said "saying what he means." You then said that god does say what he means; but you won't say that the bible means what it says.

 

How can god mean what he says, if his word doesn't?

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Bawhahaha... sorry was just laughing my ass off... I thought i was back home trying to get answer out of my pastor there for a second with Thumbelina's replies. Christians might have a thousand different sects, but ultimately the answers come down the same.

 

 

 


CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT, the TOPIC is the simplicity of the Christian Message. The OP said what Solomon basically said in Ecclesiastes 12:13 which basically says to love God & each other. The 10 commandments are comprehensive. However, skeptics fail to understand that there's a wily foe that muddied/muddies the waters & he initiated making God's simple commands seem complicated & God PERMITTED it because He's longsuffering. He wants to reason with us so we can have a willing relationship with Him.
*speaking quite softly* Please read my sig' again?

 

 

Um your signature would indicate that I need a Phd to even come close to understanding the word of god. The fact that you claim that atheists, who generally know the bible better than most Christians, have lack of knowledge of the scriptures would indicate that the message is not simple at all. 

 

Now I think the concept that the scriptures are too complex for ordinary people and must be revealed by the priesthood, is, or was a doctrine of the Chatholic church. The early church said that the scriptures were too complicated for the common person and so the common people were never allowed to read it. The priests would spoon feed the people whatever they wanted them to hear. There was no ability to say to the priest "that's wrong cause I read it". Then translation, Martin Luther and the printing press came and anyone could get their hands on the bible. (Note that last paragraph is based on murky memory... I could be wrong)

 

Context: Christians take the bible out of context all the time - especially the writers of the new testament

 

"The ten commandments are comprehensive" - are you serious? What is your definition of comprehensive? I'll fix them for you right away, how about "Thou shalt not keep any slave nor allow thy neighbor to keep slaves. I am the Lord thy God who brought you out of slavery. It is an abomination to me." Where was that in the bible? Where was "Thou shalt not rape any person. It is an abomination to the Lord" ? No, homosexuals are an abomination, slavery and rape, yeah sure here's the rules for slavery and rape.

 

For all that God could have put in the ten commandments, it is largely devoid of any actual useful commandments.

 

 

 

 

I did answer it but you know believers have to qualify answers because of the casuistry of skeptics *raised eyebrow* lol. Because of deception many answers need to be qualified, as a simple yes or no answer can be wrested out of context. The gospel(good news of salvation) is SIMPLE but it is hid from unbelievers/ disbelievers (2 Corinthians 4:3). As I said, Satan complicated/complicates things ( Matthew 13:28); a longsuffering God worked/works with all the elaborate mess which cause humans to deviate from the SIMPLE everlasting gospel (Rev 14:6). Therefore, in that sense, some portions of scripture are not easily understood (2 Peter 3:16). However, believers will be guided into all truth (John 16:13) & truth is learned in increments (Proverbs 4:18).

 

Do you not see anything wrong with what you posted here? Satan was created by an all powerful God who intentionally created him to deceive. And that elaborate mess you speak of, that is blasphemy. That is God's great plan for mankind. You are calling a mess that which God calls a grand plan. Mean while God sends a delusion so that we may believe what is false. 

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The inability of christians to answer a simple question with a simple answer should be a red flag about the so-called simplicity of the Christian religion.

 

Lurkers, take note.

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The evidence strongly suggests that religious tenets, traditions and dogma, the related scriptures, authoritative sources and claimed revelations, and the worshiped gods, sprites and spirits are entirely human inventions and human constructs.  It is not surprising that those who proselytize are simply promoting their own version of all of the above.  

 

The evidence also strongly suggests that the particular version/flavor being promoted can be easily traced back to the discrete indoctrination and peer pressure the promoter was infected with as a child and young adult (in most cases).

 

The evidence further reveals that these theists typically use a mixture of logical fallacies, rhetorical ploys, semantic diversions, outright lies and misrepresentations, well established apologetics and PRATTs when trying to sell their beliefs.

 

Ironhorse and Thumbelina are but two examples.

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ironhorse, on 13 Oct 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

 

 

 

This is the wonder of simplicity of the Christian message….the good news of the Gospel. It’s free! I can’t do a thing to earn it.

 

 

..............

Furball said:

 

Salvation is not a free gift. This is a heresy of the baptist sect of christianity. Believing is not just some type of mental acceptance that jesus died for you; believing in jesus for salvation means to obey jesus.

 

 

 

You do err in your reading and understanding of the scriptures.

 

 

..............

 

It's the basic law of logic, something cannot be true and false at the same time in the same CONTEXT. God's universe is governed by laws. Just as the law of flight counteracts the law of gravity, God's law of freedom to choose counteracts giving someone a gift they're UNWILLING to accept. If someone gives you a check for one million dollars you can CHOOSE to cash it in or leave it. God is LOVE (noun) & He's also loving (adjective), love does not force. How many of you here heard about the Bye Felipe Creeps & about Women Who Refuse? I recently learned that females can rape men (but they usually use manipulation rather than force). God is not a Bye Felipe Creep or a rapist. He made the provision for all men to be saved but not all men will CHOOSE to be saved.

 

He said if you love Me keep My commandments, without the love factor, service to God will be legalism. It's SIMPLE, the WAGES of sin is death; the GIFT of God is eternal life. I know, I know, usually we say if it's too good to be true it usually isn't true. It's our inherent skepticism that makes us like that. However, is there anything (that is not contrary to His Holy nature- He can't lie or be tempted to sin etc.)too hard for God ( Jer. 32:27)? He made salvation simple, but humans make it hard for themselves- for the way of the transgressor is hard (Proverbs 13:15).

 

How true!

 

The Gospels cannot be true - because Genesis isn't true.

 

Game over.

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Are you suggesting that EVERY verse in the bible means EXACTLY what it says?

 

Answer carefully, Thumperina.

CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT, the TOPIC is the simplicity of the Christian Message. The OP said what Solomon basically said in Ecclesiastes 12:13 which basically says to love God & each other. The 10 commandments are comprehensive. However, skeptics fail to understand that there's a wily foe that muddied/muddies the waters & he initiated making God's simple commands seem complicated & God PERMITTED it because He's longsuffering. He wants to reason with us so we can have a willing relationship with Him.

*speaking quite softly* Please read my sig' again?

 

 

No.  God does not want to reason with us.  He wants us to believe in him by faith.  

 

I know this because you, Thumbelina do NOT believe in god by using reason.  You believe in him by faith.  But faith is the opposite of reason.  Reason requires evidence that we can see and examine, whereas faith requires no evidence.  As Hebrews 11 : 1 - 3 says, believers accept god as the creator of the universe - without the need for any evidence.  And where there is no evidence, there is no need for reason.

 

Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 

This is what the ancients were commended for.

By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

 

Since simplicity is the topic of this thread Thumbelina, please answer one simple question.

"Do you believe in God by faith or by reason?"

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TheRedneckProfessor: Have what you will. You asked if there was anything too difficult for god and I said "saying what he means." You then said that god does say what he means; but you won't say that the bible means what it says.

 

How can god mean what he says, if his word doesn't?

 

Thumbelina: John 3:16 sums up the whole bible. It. Is. Simple. God means it, man!

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TheRedneckProfessor: Have what you will. You asked if there was anything too difficult for god and I said "saying what he means." You then said that god does say what he means; but you won't say that the bible means what it says.

 

How can god mean what he says, if his word doesn't?

 

Thumbelina: John 3:16 sums up the whole bible. It. Is. Simple. God means it, man!

 

John 3 :16 is meaningless unless Genesis happened.

 

And you believe that it did by reason and evidence faith.

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Please answer the simple question, Thumbelina.

 

Do you believe in God by faith or by reason?

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LogicalFallacy

 

------------ QUOTE ----------

 

CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT, the TOPIC is the simplicity of the Christian Message. The OP said what Solomon basically said in Ecclesiastes 12:13 which basically says to love God & each other. The 10 commandments are comprehensive. However, skeptics fail to understand that there's a wily foe that muddied/muddies the waters & he initiated making God's simple commands seem complicated & God PERMITTED it because He's longsuffering. He wants to reason with us so we can have a willing relationship with Him.

*speaking quite softly* Please read my sig' again?

-----------------------------

 

LogicalFallacy: Um your signature would indicate that I need a Phd to even come close to understanding the word of god. The fact that you claim that atheists, who generally know the bible better than most Christians, have lack of knowledge of the scriptures would indicate that the message is not simple at all.

 

 

Thumbelina: No, my sig' is for folks who haven't resisted the devil's temptations & therefore won't accept the gospel in its simplicity smile.png Look, Jesus even had to tell off His disciples in Mark 8:17 for being slow to comprehend His message. He said folks are slow because their hearts are hard-- note, hardness of hearts happen in degrees (physically & spiritually). Both situations need surgery. It may happen because of genetics, in a spiritual sense, it may mean having family traditions of passing on erroneous doctrines. It may happen because of eating bad food- assimilating wrong teachings about God's character.

 

 

..........

 

LogicalFallacy: Now I think the concept that the scriptures are too complex for ordinary people and must be revealed by the priesthood, is, or was a doctrine of the Chatholic church. The early church said that the scriptures were too complicated for the common person and so the common people were never allowed to read it. The priests would spoon feed the people whatever they wanted them to hear. There was no ability to say to the priest - that's wrong cause I read it. Then translation, Martin Luther and the printing press came and anyone could get their hands on the bible. (Note that last paragraph is based on murky memory... I could be wrong)

 

Context: Christians take the bible out of context all the time - especially the writers of the new testament

 

 

 

Thumbelina: The bible says cursed is the man who trusts in man, meaning, the ultimate test of truth comes from God Himself, His inspired Word gives instructions on how to know the truth. The bible says the scriptures are for the simple. Do you think an infinite mind would inspire boring writings? It's written for the simple as well as the intellectual & the in between. Bible prophecy predicted what you said about professed believers corrupting the Word & trampling it. I agree, SOME Christians take biblical passages out of context which is why individuals have to test the teachings by the Word. If a person is completely willing they WILL know of the doctrine (John 7:17).

 

...........

 

LogicalFallacy: "The ten commandments are comprehensive" - are you serious? What is your definition of comprehensive? I'll fix them for you right away, how about "Thou shalt not keep any slave nor allow thy neighbor to keep slaves. I am the Lord thy God who brought you out of slavery. It is an abomination to me." Where was that in the bible? Where was "Thou shalt not rape any person. It is an abomination to the Lord" ? No, homosexuals are an abomination, slavery and rape, yeah sure here's the rules for slavery and rape.

 

For all that God could have put in the ten commandments, it is largely devoid of any actual useful commandments.

 

 

Thumbelina: You're one of the typical intelligent atheistic (?) unbeliever/disbeliever out there so I know you know what that word means. In James it says that if a person breaks one commandment he breaks them all. When Eve sinned she made her own opinion an idol & when created beings do that they're breaking the commandment of not loving God supremely. That situation quickly devolved further into tempting her fellow man to do the same (it was husband in her case); misery loves company! All sins & injustices fall under the umbrella of not loving & obeying God & not loving ones fellow man as oneself & that's the summary of the 10 commandments.

 

 

There was never supposed to be any slavery, divorce, rebellious kids, demented parents, eyelash jabbing one in the eye, death etc. in the first place. Man chose those things but a merciful God reached out to us to restore us eventually. Do earthly parents completely dismiss their children when they don't do right? Then how much more will an all loving God reach out to dense humans (compared to Him i.e.)?

 

Analogy -- Your little kid enjoys drawing with feces on the wall (sorry about being indelicate but folk tend to take note of the bizarre things biggrin.png), do you banish the kid from your house, never to see him again?... or do you reason with the child at their level to let him know it's unacceptable & perhaps explain why he shouldn't do that? Now, if the kid is smearing the walls, you'll wash his hands & punish him accordingly but if he's smearing his sister with it then you'll have to take stricter measures but you'll work with him where he's at & eventually you'll get him to see smearing feces is wrong, right?

 

Sometimes folk gotta learn the hard way, as speaking to them & telling them what is right doesn't always work. We see God's professed people apostatizing a lot in the biblical narrative; they were supposed to cause the nations of the earth to be blessed by making them jealous & wanting to have their God too but they tended to fail at doing so. When they indulged in oppressing their fellow men, it was like smearing feces on them. God worked with what He had *sigh* God made the Abrahamic covenant & He wasn't going to let rebellious people thwart His plans.

He's patient & longsuffering.

 

God says turning away from hearing His law is an abomination (Proverbs 28:9) - He hates the actions of hypoChristians too wink.png Abomination means bottom.

 

God is not WILLING that any person should perish. In the biblical narratives, we see God's professed people being enslaved or enslaving others, while those situations were far from ideal, God had object lessons to teach & in some cases He wanted others to be exposed to the One true God via His people who had His precious oracles (even if it was only head knowledge that they had & they did not truly practice them). Some of the slavery that God's people indulged in in the bible was not like the slavery we read about in history books. God does not like oppression but He permits the poor to be always among believers (Matthew 26:11) so believers can learn to be caring & selfless toward them.

 

 

 

------------ QUOTE ----------

I did answer it but you know believers have to qualify answers because of the casuistry of skeptics *raised eyebrow* lol. Because of deception many answers need to be qualified, as a simple yes or no answer can be wrested out of context. The gospel(good news of salvation) is SIMPLE but it is hid from unbelievers/ disbelievers (2 Corinthians 4:3). As I said, Satan complicated/complicates things ( Matthew 13:28); a longsuffering God worked/works with all the elaborate mess which cause humans to deviate from the SIMPLE everlasting gospel (Rev 14:6). Therefore, in that sense, some portions of scripture are not easily understood (2 Peter 3:16). However, believers will be guided into all truth (John 16:13) & truth is learned in increments (Proverbs 4:18).

-----------------------------

 

 

LogicalFallacy: Do you not see anything wrong with what you posted here? Satan was created by an all powerful God who intentionally created him to deceive. And that elaborate mess you speak of, that is blasphemy. That is God's great plan for mankind. You are calling a mess that which God calls a grand plan. Mean while God sends a delusion so that we may believe what is false.

 

 

 

Thumbelina: God did not intentionally create Satan to deceive people. God created him perfect. Lucifer mysteriously chose to deviate from God's law & became Satan. When ancient writers say God sends delusions or hardens hearts etc. it means as the supreme Potentate, He permitted beings to CHOOSE to do wrong. The bible says God cannot be tempted with evil & He tempts no man to do it either.

 

Someone on here said they believe in yin & yang, I don't believe in that for a moment. Evil is a parasite on good & it was not necessary to begin with & it will not be necessary in the future. God permitted sin because of His nature of giving created, sentient beings the power of choice. If a couple has a perfect marriage do you think they will need stress & fights? Those things inevitably come into marriages because we live in a sinful world & people cope but do you think those things are necessary evils that will enhance a relationship? Yes, yes, I know some smart Alec in here is gonna talk about make-up sex but how about if the no-fight intercourse trumped that & a couple never experienced negative feelings or had negative experiences (that'll be Adam & Eve before sin)?

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LogicalFallacy: Do you not see anything wrong with what you posted here? Satan was created by an all powerful God who intentionally created him to deceive. And that elaborate mess you speak of, that is blasphemy. That is God's great plan for mankind. You are calling a mess that which God calls a grand plan. Mean while God sends a delusion so that we may believe what is false.

 

 

Thumbelina: God did not intentionally create Satan to deceive people. God created him perfect. Lucifer mysteriously chose to deviate from God's law & became Satan. When ancient writers say God sends delusions or hardens hearts etc. it means as the supreme Potentate, He permitted beings to CHOOSE to do wrong. The bible says God cannot be tempted with evil & He tempts no man to do it either.

 

 

So how can an all-knowing, all-seeing and perfect God do anything unintentionally?

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Please answer the simple question, Thumbelina.

 

Do you believe in God by faith or by reason?

 

(Bump!)

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Thumbelina: John 3:16 sums up the whole bible. It. Is. Simple. God means it, man!

 

Hi, Thumb, glad to see you again.

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I am throwing BAA's advice to the wind! I will get the truth out of Thumb.... or at least give it a shot. :D (BAA I don't wanna hear a "I told you so" ok? I'm still new here ;) )

 

LogicalFallacy

------------ QUOTE ----------

CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT, the TOPIC is the simplicity of the Christian Message. The OP said what Solomon basically said in Ecclesiastes 12:13 which basically says to love God & each other. The 10 commandments are comprehensive. However, skeptics fail to understand that there's a wily foe that muddied/muddies the waters & he initiated making God's simple commands seem complicated & God PERMITTED it because He's longsuffering. He wants to reason with us so we can have a willing relationship with Him.
*speaking quite softly* Please read my sig' again?
-----------------------------

LogicalFallacy: Um your signature would indicate that I need a Phd to even come close to understanding the word of god. The fact that you claim that atheists, who generally know the bible better than most Christians, have lack of knowledge of the scriptures would indicate that the message is not simple at all.


Thumbelina: No, my sig' is for folks who haven't resisted the devil's temptations & therefore won't accept the gospel in its simplicity smile.png Look, Jesus even had to tell off His disciples in Mark 8:17 for being slow to comprehend His message. He said folks are slow because their hearts are hard-- note, hardness of hearts happen in degrees (physically & spiritually). Both situations need surgery. It may happen because of genetics, in a spiritual sense, it may mean having family traditions of passing on erroneous doctrines. It may happen because of eating bad food- assimilating wrong teachings about God's character.

 

Jesus specifically states that he speaks in parables so that the multitudes won't understand. He then explains the parables to the disciples. It is also mentioned many times in the bible that God hides the truth, blinds eyes of understanding, sends delusions, and hardens hearts. It's not the devil blinding eyes and hardening hearts, its God. The Devil gets the wrap later in the Bible in the new testament. 

 

My question is, how are mere mortals supposed to understand a God that is intentionally deceiving them? 


..........

LogicalFallacy: Now I think the concept that the scriptures are too complex for ordinary people and must be revealed by the priesthood, is, or was a doctrine of the Chatholic church. The early church said that the scriptures were too complicated for the common person and so the common people were never allowed to read it. The priests would spoon feed the people whatever they wanted them to hear. There was no ability to say to the priest - that's wrong cause I read it. Then translation, Martin Luther and the printing press came and anyone could get their hands on the bible. (Note that last paragraph is based on murky memory... I could be wrong)

Context: Christians take the bible out of context all the time - especially the writers of the new testament



Thumbelina: The bible says cursed is the man who trusts in man, meaning, the ultimate test of truth comes from God Himself, His inspired Word gives instructions on how to know the truth. The bible says the scriptures are for the simple. Do you think an infinite mind would inspire boring writings? It's written for the simple as well as the intellectual & the in between. Bible prophecy predicted what you said about professed believers corrupting the Word & trampling it. I agree, SOME Christians take biblical passages out of context which is why individuals have to test the teachings by the Word. If a person is completely willing they WILL know of the doctrine (John 7:17).

 

So this infinite mind made it so that for the birth of Christianity, and for some 1600 years thereafter Christianity would be controlled by those who would corrupt the word and trample on it. How the heck then can you trust what is written in the bible is actually the word of God as opposed to the writings of men inspired by anything but God?

...........

LogicalFallacy: "The ten commandments are comprehensive" - are you serious? What is your definition of comprehensive? I'll fix them for you right away, how about "Thou shalt not keep any slave nor allow thy neighbor to keep slaves. I am the Lord thy God who brought you out of slavery. It is an abomination to me." Where was that in the bible? Where was "Thou shalt not rape any person. It is an abomination to the Lord" ? No, homosexuals are an abomination, slavery and rape, yeah sure here's the rules for slavery and rape.

For all that God could have put in the ten commandments, it is largely devoid of any actual useful commandments.


Thumbelina: You're one of the typical intelligent atheistic (?) unbeliever/disbeliever out there so I know you know what that word means. In James it says that if a person breaks one commandment he breaks them all. When Eve sinned she made her own opinion an idol & when created beings do that they're breaking the commandment of not loving God supremely. That situation quickly devolved further into tempting her fellow man to do the same (it was husband in her case); misery loves company! All sins & injustices fall under the umbrella of not loving & obeying God & not loving ones fellow man as oneself & that's the summary of the 10 commandments.


There was never supposed to be any slavery, divorce, rebellious kids, demented parents, eyelash jabbing one in the eye, death etc. in the first place. Man chose those things but a merciful God reached out to us to restore us eventually. Do earthly parents completely dismiss their children when they don't do right? Then how much more will an all loving God reach out to dense humans (compared to Him i.e.)?

Analogy -- Your little kid enjoys drawing with feces on the wall (sorry about being indelicate but folk tend to take note of the bizarre things biggrin.png), do you banish the kid from your house, never to see him again?... or do you reason with the child at their level to let him know it's unacceptable & perhaps explain why he shouldn't do that? Now, if the kid is smearing the walls, you'll wash his hands & punish him accordingly but if he's smearing his sister with it then you'll have to take stricter measures but you'll work with him where he's at & eventually you'll get him to see smearing feces is wrong, right?

 

If we take your analogy then the bad little Kids, Adam and Eve wind up getting the ENTIRE human species cursed with original sin. You and I punished and in sin for something we did not commit. But wait, 1600-2000 years after the fall God is so pissed with his children that he WIPES all but 8 of humanity from the earth. Your analogy is false. It explains a decent human parent, not the God of the Bible. With God, when people annoyed him they got wiped from existence to spend eternity in hell.

 

This is the analogy you were looking for: Two children are put in the garden by their father. On a table he puts a bowl of sweets and tells them not to touch the sweets or they will die. (Parents do actually say stuff like this to stop kids from doing things.) The father then catches the children eating the sweets. He then kicks them out of the house telling them to never come back, and that he never wants to see his grandchildren.

Sometimes folk gotta learn the hard way, as speaking to them & telling them what is right doesn't always work. We see God's professed people apostatizing a lot in the biblical narrative; they were supposed to cause the nations of the earth to be blessed by making them jealous & wanting to have their God too but they tended to fail at doing so. When they indulged in oppressing their fellow men, it was like smearing feces on them. God worked with what He had *sigh* God made the Abrahamic covenant & He wasn't going to let rebellious people thwart His plans.
He's patient & longsuffering.

God says turning away from hearing His law is an abomination (Proverbs 28:9) - He hates the actions of hypoChristians too wink.png Abomination means bottom.

God is not WILLING that any person should perish. In the biblical narratives, we see God's professed people being enslaved or enslaving others, while those situations were far from ideal, God had object lessons to teach & in some cases He wanted others to be exposed to the One true God via His people who had His precious oracles (even if it was only head knowledge that they had & they did not truly practice them). Some of the slavery that God's people indulged in in the bible was not like the slavery we read about in history books. God does not like oppression but He permits the poor to be always among believers (Matthew 26:11) so believers can learn to be caring & selfless toward them.

 

"God is not WILLING that any person should perish. " This is flat out wrong - not according to the bible, but according to reason. What we have is an all powerful God right? If he's not all powerful then we are wasting time arguing.

 

So take that statement, if God is all powerful, and he does not will then any person should perish, then he can save everybody. If he doesn't save everybody then either he can't, and is not all powerful (So why worship him?), OR if he doesn't save everybody but can, then he is all powerful and willing to let people die. Therefore he is unjust and immoral. 



------------ QUOTE ----------
I did answer it but you know believers have to qualify answers because of the casuistry of skeptics *raised eyebrow* lol. Because of deception many answers need to be qualified, as a simple yes or no answer can be wrested out of context. The gospel(good news of salvation) is SIMPLE but it is hid from unbelievers/ disbelievers (2 Corinthians 4:3). As I said, Satan complicated/complicates things ( Matthew 13:28); a longsuffering God worked/works with all the elaborate mess which cause humans to deviate from the SIMPLE everlasting gospel (Rev 14:6). Therefore, in that sense, some portions of scripture are not easily understood (2 Peter 3:16). However, believers will be guided into all truth (John 16:13) & truth is learned in increments (Proverbs 4:18).
-----------------------------


LogicalFallacy: Do you not see anything wrong with what you posted here? Satan was created by an all powerful God who intentionally created him to deceive. And that elaborate mess you speak of, that is blasphemy. That is God's great plan for mankind. You are calling a mess that which God calls a grand plan. Mean while God sends a delusion so that we may believe what is false.



Thumbelina: God did not intentionally create Satan to deceive people. God created him perfect. Lucifer mysteriously chose to deviate from God's law & became Satan. When ancient writers say God sends delusions or hardens hearts etc. it means as the supreme Potentate, He permitted beings to CHOOSE to do wrong. The bible says God cannot be tempted with evil & He tempts no man to do it either.

Someone on here said they believe in yin & yang, I don't believe in that for a moment. Evil is a parasite on good & it was not necessary to begin with & it will not be necessary in the future. God permitted sin because of His nature of giving created, sentient beings the power of choice. If a couple has a perfect marriage do you think they will need stress & fights? Those things inevitably come into marriages because we live in a sinful world & people cope but do you think those things are necessary evils that will enhance a relationship? Yes, yes, I know some smart Alec in here is gonna talk about make-up sex but how about if the no-fight intercourse trumped that & a couple never experienced negative feelings or had negative experiences (that'll be Adam & Eve before sin)?

 

We will continue our concept of an all powerful God. (Incidentally what concerns me is that Christians like yourself, Thumb, say stuff about God without thinking of the implications of it.)

 

So, God created Satan perfect. But then satan become not perfect. Therefore either God did not create him perfect (He's an all powerful God, perfect would be perfect) OR God created Satan knowing that he would fall and try and deceive etc etc. Again what we have is either a God who is not all powerful, or a God who intentionally set up a grand plan with immense suffering and deception all for his own Glory.

 

"The bible says God cannot be tempted with evil & He tempts no man to do it either"

 

You are cherry picking. The bible also says:

God did tempt Abraham ... And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac ... and offer him there for a burnt offering. Genesis 22:1

 

The Lord's prayer specifically asks God to "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil" Why do we ask God to 'lead us not into temptation' if God does not tempt? And note the word evil - we want to be delivered from evil. Isiah 45-7 "“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

 

So does God tempt or does he not, does he cause evil or does he not? Not such a simple message.... in fact one might be forgiven for thinking its outright contradictory in parts.

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I simply believe in Christ and go from there.

In india, people simply believe in krishna and go from there.

In tibet, people simply believe in buddha and go from there.

In utah, people simply believe in joseph smith and go from there there. 

In l.a., people simply believe in l. ron hubbard and go from there.

In china, people simply believe in lao tzu and go from there. 

 

What's your point, other than believing in the popular religious cult of your current location in the world?

 

 

 

In all the belief systems you listed, salvation is not achieved by a simple yes, I believe. They are dependent on the person taking steps, following the rules, working their way to God or nirvana or whatever the enlightenment the system promises.

 

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.”

~ Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV)

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James 2:17 tells us that faith without works is dead. In other words, you still have to work for your salvation. Faith is just what starts the process. The christian religion is no different from any other religion in this regard, despite the protestations of its adherents.

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However, believers will be guided into all truth...

 

HAHAHA!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

 

Oh, man, was that funny to read.

 

Now, JUST from these:

 

 

  • Catholicism - 1.2 billion.
  • Protestantism - 800 million.
  • Eastern Orthodoxy - 225–300 million.
  • Oriental Orthodoxy - 86 million.
  • Anglicanism - 85 million.
  • Restorationism and Nontrinitarianism - 42–48 million.
  • Church of the East - 0.6 million.

 

Tell me which of them has been guided into "all truth", or at least more truth than others. If one group (there are THOUSANDS more distinct denominations, btw) has been guided into more truth than others, please explain exactly why.

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I simply believe in Christ and go from there.

In india, people simply believe in krishna and go from there.

In tibet, people simply believe in buddha and go from there.

In utah, people simply believe in joseph smith and go from there there. 

In l.a., people simply believe in l. ron hubbard and go from there.

In china, people simply believe in lao tzu and go from there. 

 

What's your point, other than believing in the popular religious cult of your current location in the world?

 

 

 

In all the belief systems you listed, salvation is not achieved by a simple yes, I believe. They are dependent on the person taking steps, following the rules, working their way to God or nirvana or whatever the enlightenment the system promises.

 

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.”

~ Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV)

 

 

To Ironhorse,

 

Before you try and sell us the sub-prime mortgage that is Christianity, please be honest enough to tell us about the small print of Genesis.

.

.

.

To the lurkers and my fellow Ex-Christians.

 

The lesson for today folks, is this.

 

If someone offers you a deal that looks too good to be true - it probably is.

 

Ask the seller about the small print.

 

If they won't tell you what it is - don't buy!

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LogicalFallacy: Do you not see anything wrong with what you posted here? Satan was created by an all powerful God who intentionally created him to deceive. And that elaborate mess you speak of, that is blasphemy. That is God's great plan for mankind. You are calling a mess that which God calls a grand plan. Mean while God sends a delusion so that we may believe what is false.

 

 

Thumbelina: God did not intentionally create Satan to deceive people. God created him perfect. Lucifer mysteriously chose to deviate from God's law & became Satan. When ancient writers say God sends delusions or hardens hearts etc. it means as the supreme Potentate, He permitted beings to CHOOSE to do wrong. The bible says God cannot be tempted with evil & He tempts no man to do it either.

 

 

So how can an all-knowing, all-seeing and perfect God do anything unintentionally?

 

 

(Bumped for Thumbelina to ignore...

 

 

...and for the lurkers to take note that she ignored this question.) 

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Thumbelina, I hope things are going well. It's been a while!

 

My suggestion - not that you'll take it, lol - is read more Aquinas and less Ellen G. White and company.

 

 

Cheers, nutty f

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However, believers will be guided into all truth...

 

HAHAHA!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

 

Oh, man, was that funny to read.

 

Now, JUST from these:

 

 

  • Catholicism - 1.2 billion.
  • Protestantism - 800 million.
  • Eastern Orthodoxy - 225–300 million.
  • Oriental Orthodoxy - 86 million.
  • Anglicanism - 85 million.
  • Restorationism and Nontrinitarianism - 42–48 million.
  • Church of the East - 0.6 million.

 

Tell me which of them has been guided into "all truth", or at least more truth than others. If one group (there are THOUSANDS more distinct denominations, btw) has been guided into more truth than others, please explain exactly why.

 

I'm guessing some little denomination that started in the United States in the mid-1800s ... don't keep us in suspense.

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I simply believe in Christ and go from there.

In india, people simply believe in krishna and go from there.

In tibet, people simply believe in buddha and go from there.

In utah, people simply believe in joseph smith and go from there there. 

In l.a., people simply believe in l. ron hubbard and go from there.

In china, people simply believe in lao tzu and go from there. 

 

What's your point, other than believing in the popular religious cult of your current location in the world?

 

 

 

In all the belief systems you listed, salvation is not achieved by a simple yes, I believe. They are dependent on the person taking steps, following the rules, working their way to God or nirvana or whatever the enlightenment the system promises.

 

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.”

~ Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV)

 

 

Hold on a second... You are muddying the waters by implying that salvation is necessary in all belief systems.

 

In many of world belief systems, salvation isn't needed. 

 

The idea of sin as a condition, not as an action is limited to abrahamic faiths, in particular christianity. In Hinduism, if you're "not a dick (don't steal, murder, rape, etc.)" in life, you are generally judged lightly and granted a pass to heaven without the need of an intermediary. 

Buddhism is all about enlightenment, not about salvation. The various cults believe various things, but then again, enlightenment is about discovery, knowledge and wisdom, not about living in paradise, which some Buddhist might consider the desire to live in absolute pleasure for eternity as both intellectually and physically lazy and self absorbed. 

 

 

However, if you're going to claim Christianity as simply saying yes, then you need to check out Christianity direct "yes only" competition: Hare Krishna, which is a variation of the Hindu faith. In it, the only thing one person has to do is say yes to Lord Sri Hari:

 

 

All the grievous sins are removed for one who worships Lord Sri Hari, the Lord of all lords, and chants the holy name, the Maha-mantra.

— Padma Purana, 3.50.6

 

In Hare Krishna, God forgives you without any need of a human sacrifice. And before you start posting tripe about Vedic sacrifices, these are much like communion - pleasing to god and a sign of obedience, but not necessary for salvation. 

 

 

The more I discovered the faiths of the world, the more I realized my bullshit christian bubble was bullshit. The lies the church sells - salvation is easy in christianity, etc. etc. is all that - lies. There are OTHER religions that are far more simple - that doesn't require adapting behaviors, declares you a sinner and all your being worthy of hell, and requires some sort of human sacrifice. 

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I simply believe in Christ and go from there.

In india, people simply believe in krishna and go from there.

In tibet, people simply believe in buddha and go from there.

In utah, people simply believe in joseph smith and go from there there. 

In l.a., people simply believe in l. ron hubbard and go from there.

In china, people simply believe in lao tzu and go from there. 

 

What's your point, other than believing in the popular religious cult of your current location in the world?

 

 

 

In all the belief systems you listed, salvation is not achieved by a simple yes, I believe. They are dependent on the person taking steps, following the rules, working their way to God or nirvana or whatever the enlightenment the system promises.

 

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.”

~ Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV)

 

 

To Ironhorse,

 

Before you try and sell us the sub-prime mortgage that is Christianity, please be honest enough to tell us about the small print of Genesis.

.

.

.

To the lurkers and my fellow Ex-Christians.

 

The lesson for today folks, is this.

 

If someone offers you a deal that looks too good to be true - it probably is.

 

Ask the seller about the small print.

 

If they won't tell you what it is - don't buy!

 

 

Indeed! 

 

If you're going to take a mortgage, go with Hare Krishna as stated above. In that religion, the god didn't even need to do any complex tripe of having themselves born a virgin and sacrificed to themselves in order for humans to achieve salvation! Yahweh is weak. He needs some craycray ritual to get people saved. This other god, Lord Sri Hari didn't need to do some ritual - just ask him and he'll forgive you! Wow. Pretty freaking simple. 

 

Oh - and your grievous sins? Yeah, that's the bad shit you do. There is no "condition" in which needs saved. If you do bad things, you'll be taken to court (in the afterlife) and be judged according to your actions and a just punishment will be doled out. If you want to get out of that, just say yes to Sri Hari. Or not, and pay for it for a limited time then get to heaven. 

 

Now, if Christianity is true - then you're screwed for eternity. Because reasons. 

 

Sorry IH, you lose. Your religion is more complex and far less logical than Hare Krishna.

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