duderonomy Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 BAA, Prof, and LF. I want to go on record as saying you are correct and I was wrong, and thanks for your replies. It's not about Ironhorse or Thumbelina or whomever anyway, it's about the facts and the evidence, the ideas and the detrimental mind numbing effects of a certain religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 PAGE 1 Ironhorse rjn Shinzon Florduh TheRedneckProf Florduh BAA.........................asked IH to select 1 of 4 options about how he plans to answer questions in this thread and also to answer 2 questions. LogicalFallacy...........asked IH to please justify, in light of Genesis 12, the numerous accounts of peoples being ravaged because GOD told his chosen blessed people to go wipe out entire nations . Fweethawt Ironhorse Florduh rjn TheRedneckProf Ficino TheRedneckProf Shinzon Duderonomy LogicalFallacy..........Thank you for quoting me Ironhorse - I also gave a specific example, and requested a specific response. Would you care to answer it...? pratt rjn PAGE 2 BAA.......................repeated his request for IH to select 1 of 4 options about how he plans to answer questions in this thread. BAA.......................pointed out that according to Pastor Matthew of the Grace Valley Christian Center this blessing refers specifically to the spiritual blessing Jesus Christ would bring to the whole world. TheRedneckProf BAA.......................asked IH to confirm that Galatians 3 : 7 - 9 is the correct meaning of Genesis 12 : 3. Furball Furball LogicalFallacy BAA......................once again asked IH to confirm that Galatians 3 : 7 - 9 is the correct meaning of Genesis 12 : 3 Voice Voice sdelsolray BAA.....................asked IH to restate the answers he gave to the 4 options, because they had been lost, due to a computer glitch. LogicalFallacy BAA duderonomy BAA LogicalFallacy TheRedneckProf Ironhorse............... READING IS VERY IMPORTANT PAGE 3 TheRedneckProf LogicalFallacy.........asked IH to answer our Israel-related queries instead of beating around the proverbial burning bush. Ficino Bhim BAA.......................put three new questions to IH Ironhorse pratt Ironhorse rjn Ironhorse So, over the course of three pages and 50+ posts over 9 days, Ironhorse has actually quoted and answered rjn twice (red and violet) and Shinzon (lime) once. All our other on-topic questions, on-topic observations and on-topic requests by any other member have been ignored by him. And he's stuck to his plan of 'keeping his comments related to his first post' which he made on Nov 2. Which would explain why only rjn and Shinzon have had their questions answered - because they quoted his first post. . . . Oh wait! I quoted IH's first post too, on Nov 2. And on Nov 3 and again on Nov 8. So why hasn't he answered my questions..? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 BAA, Prof, and LF. I want to go on record as saying you are correct and I was wrong, and thanks for your replies. It's not about Ironhorse or Thumbelina or whomever anyway, it's about the facts and the evidence, the ideas and the detrimental mind numbing effects of a certain religion. No problem, Dude. Chill. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjn Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 PAGE 1 Ironhorse rjn Shinzon Florduh TheRedneckProf Florduh BAA.........................asked IH to select 1 of 4 options about how he plans to answer questions in this thread and also to answer 2 questions. LogicalFallacy...........asked IH to please justify, in light of Genesis 12, the numerous accounts of peoples being ravaged because GOD told his chosen blessed people to go wipe out entire nations . Fweethawt Ironhorse Florduh rjn TheRedneckProf Ficino TheRedneckProf Shinzon Duderonomy LogicalFallacy..........Thank you for quoting me Ironhorse - I also gave a specific example, and requested a specific response. Would you care to answer it...? pratt rjn PAGE 2 BAA.......................repeated his request for IH to select 1 of 4 options about how he plans to answer questions in this thread. BAA.......................pointed out that according to Pastor Matthew of the Grace Valley Christian Center this blessing refers specifically to the spiritual blessing Jesus Christ would bring to the whole world. TheRedneckProf BAA.......................asked IH to confirm that Galatians 3 : 7 - 9 is the correct meaning of Genesis 12 : 3. Furball Furball LogicalFallacy BAA......................once again asked IH to confirm that Galatians 3 : 7 - 9 is the correct meaning of Genesis 12 : 3 Voice Voice sdelsolray BAA.....................asked IH to restate the answers he gave to the 4 options, because they had been lost, due to a computer glitch. LogicalFallacy BAA duderonomy BAA LogicalFallacy TheRedneckProf Ironhorse............... READING IS VERY IMPORTANT PAGE 3 TheRedneckProf LogicalFallacy.........asked IH to answer our Israel-related queries instead of beating around the proverbial burning bush. Ficino Bhim BAA.......................put three new questions to IH Ironhorse pratt Ironhorse rjn Ironhorse So, over the course of three pages and 50+ posts over 9 days, Ironhorse has actually quoted and answered rjn twice (red and violet) and Shinzon (lime) once. All our other on-topic questions, on-topic observations and on-topic requests by any other member have been ignored by him. And he's stuck to his plan of 'keeping his comments related to his first post' which he made on Nov 2. Which would explain why only rjn and Shinzon have had their questions answered - because they quoted his first post. . . . Oh wait! I quoted IH's first post too, on Nov 2. And on Nov 3 and again on Nov 8. So why hasn't he answered my questions..? Dayum... You're nothing if not dedicated and tenacious, BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted November 13, 2016 Moderator Share Posted November 13, 2016 BAA, Prof, and LF. I want to go on record as saying you are correct and I was wrong, and thanks for your replies. It's not about Ironhorse or Thumbelina or whomever anyway, it's about the facts and the evidence, the ideas and the detrimental mind numbing effects of a certain religion. Chur bro, all good, you help me, I help you, we all help the lurkers and we all be happy! Lol @ BAA, I started chanting BAA, BAA, BAA! after reading that carefully prepared list of responses requested and the ending paragraph. All will of course note the lack of Ironhorse answering specific questions put to him about the subject in his own thread. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 Umm... it goes a little further than that, LF. Take a look at rjn's and Shinzon's posts from Nov 2. Apart from the Lenny Cohen reply to rjn on the 11th, these are the only two responses Ironhorse has made to anyone re his OP. In both of them, both rjn and Shinzon accept Ironhorse's conclusion that Genesis 12 : 3 is about the nation of Israel and they make their comments on the back of that. Because they have accepted his conclusion - he's responded to them. Anyone else who hasn't tacitly or openly accepted his conclusion about Genesis 12 : 3 has been ignored. So when he wrote that he will be... 'keeping his comments related to his first post' ...he intends to stick exactly to that standard. That is, he will only reply to people who accept his conclusion that Genesis 12 : 3 refers only to the nation of Israel. Anyone else, who either doesn't accept that, who questions it or raises any other point will be ignored. So, for you to get an on-topic reply from Ironhorse, you first have to agree to HIS terms and accept HIS interpretation of Genesis 12 : 3. Which explains why everyone else except rjn and Shinzon is getting dead air from him. You either toe his line or you get... nothing! . . . So I wonder what would happen if the apostle Paul were to take part in this thread and tell Ironhorse that Genesis 12 : 3 actually refers to the person of Jesus Christ and not the nation of Israel? Which I first pointed out to him ten days ago, like this... . . . Posted 03 November 2016 - 11:10 AM Once again I must refer Ironhorse to the words of the apostle Paul, so that he gains a proper (and not a heretical) understanding of the meaning of Genesis 12 : 3. Galatians 3 : 7 - 9. 7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. Genesis 12 : 3 refers only to the spiritual blessings of faith, the gospel and world-wide salvation. Why? Because it is God's gospel announced in advance of the birth of Jesus Christ. It says nothing about the secular history of the nation of Israel or the cultural or scientific achievements of the Jews. Ironhorse, please confirm that you agree that this correct meaning of Genesis 12 : 3. Please also confirm that you were wrong to take it to mean anything to do with the historical exploits of the nation of Israel. Thanks, BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 Paul confirms that the promises given by God to Abram concern the singular person of Jesus Christ, not the people of the nation of Israel. Galatians 3 : 15 & 16. 15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,”[i] meaning one person, who is Christ. So, when God said to Abram that, 'all peoples on earth will be blessed through you' he meant that all people will be blessed through the one person of Jesus Christ - not through the many people of Israel. Thanks, BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted November 14, 2016 Author Share Posted November 14, 2016 A thread on all things Israel. I thought I would start with this promised blessing from Genesis 12: ‘’…and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.” I think we can agree that the world has benefited and been enriched by the Jewish peoples contributions and achievements in literature, music, technology, science, and medicine. Before this thread goes too far Ironhorse, please tell us if your replies to any questions put to you will be... A A clear and definitive answer B. You just giving your view on the matter C. You speculating about this passage of scripture D. Something else I ask because your Oct 14 answer to LogicalFallacy's question about Genesis 4 in this thread... http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/74143-in-the-beginning/#.WBpDPS2LSpo ... was this. Since Adam lived several hundred years, having lots of children was not a problem. This would mean that Cain married a sister, niece, or some other relation, and their children had children, etc. The genetic line in these early times was pure. So the prohibition against incest was not yet proclaimed. Which looked to us like a clear and definitive answer you can be held accountable to. But since yesterday you've told us that you were 'just giving your view' on his question. Neither LogicalFallacy nor I had any idea that were you doing this. We had to wait almost three weeks to find out what you were just giving your view. And we only found out after persistent and repeated requests from both of us, for you to commit yourself on the matter. So, to avoid this sort of thing happening again, can you please tell us from get go when you are giving a clear and definitive answer that you can be accountable to ...and when you aren't? If you can't be straight with us about Genesis 4, why should we believe you are going to be straight with us about any questions put to you about Genesis 12? Thanks, BAA. Before this thread goes too far Ironhorse, please tell us if your replies to any questions put to you will be... A A clear and definitive answer I will do my best. B. You just giving your view on the matter. I will say it is just my view. C. You speculating about this passage of scripture. I will state if I'm just speculating. D. Something else Whatever that might be. Sounds like a good standard for all of us here in the Lion's Den. "If you can't be straight with us about Genesis 4, why should we believe you are going to be straight with us about any questions put to you about Genesis 12?" That is subject is on another thread, no comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 Ironhorse, I think you were supposed to pick just one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted November 14, 2016 Author Share Posted November 14, 2016 Ironhorse, I think you were supposed to pick just one. If so, I guess I flunked that quiz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted November 14, 2016 Moderator Share Posted November 14, 2016 He was, and I already told him that. Either he doesn't know what a multi choice question is, or he want's to keep his speculating options open I speculate that this thread will turn out to be pointless with no real issues discussed. However I'm just speculating. I'll let you know at the end of the topic if I was right Edit: Yes Ironhorse you did. BAA basically wants to know if we will get a solid answer out of you, or are you just going to dance about and change tunes everytime you are pushed for an answer? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 A thread on all things Israel. I thought I would start with this promised blessing from Genesis 12: ‘’…and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.” I think we can agree that the world has benefited and been enriched by the Jewish peoples contributions and achievements in literature, music, technology, science, and medicine. Before this thread goes too far Ironhorse, please tell us if your replies to any questions put to you will be... A A clear and definitive answer B. You just giving your view on the matter C. You speculating about this passage of scripture D. Something else I ask because your Oct 14 answer to LogicalFallacy's question about Genesis 4 in this thread... http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/74143-in-the-beginning/#.WBpDPS2LSpo ... was this. Since Adam lived several hundred years, having lots of children was not a problem. This would mean that Cain married a sister, niece, or some other relation, and their children had children, etc. The genetic line in these early times was pure. So the prohibition against incest was not yet proclaimed. Which looked to us like a clear and definitive answer you can be held accountable to. But since yesterday you've told us that you were 'just giving your view' on his question. Neither LogicalFallacy nor I had any idea that were you doing this. We had to wait almost three weeks to find out what you were just giving your view. And we only found out after persistent and repeated requests from both of us, for you to commit yourself on the matter. So, to avoid this sort of thing happening again, can you please tell us from get go when you are giving a clear and definitive answer that you can be accountable to ...and when you aren't? If you can't be straight with us about Genesis 4, why should we believe you are going to be straight with us about any questions put to you about Genesis 12? Thanks, BAA. Before this thread goes too far Ironhorse, please tell us if your replies to any questions put to you will be... A A clear and definitive answer I will do my best. B. You just giving your view on the matter. I will say it is just my view. C. You speculating about this passage of scripture. I will state if I'm just speculating. D. Something else Whatever that might be. Sounds like a good standard for all of us here in the Lion's Den. "If you can't be straight with us about Genesis 4, why should we believe you are going to be straight with us about any questions put to you about Genesis 12?" That is subject is on another thread, no comment. So, in your OP Ironhorse, when you interpret Genesis 12 :3 to be about the nation of Israel, is that A,B,C or D..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 Ironhorse, did you see a youtube video showing a circle of clouds over Israel with trumpets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 A thread on all things Israel. I thought I would start with this promised blessing from Genesis 12: ‘’…and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.” I think we can agree that the world has benefited and been enriched by the Jewish peoples contributions and achievements in literature, music, technology, science, and medicine. Before this thread goes too far Ironhorse, please tell us if your replies to any questions put to you will be... A A clear and definitive answer B. You just giving your view on the matter C. You speculating about this passage of scripture D. Something else I ask because your Oct 14 answer to LogicalFallacy's question about Genesis 4 in this thread... http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/74143-in-the-beginning/#.WBpDPS2LSpo ... was this. Since Adam lived several hundred years, having lots of children was not a problem. This would mean that Cain married a sister, niece, or some other relation, and their children had children, etc. The genetic line in these early times was pure. So the prohibition against incest was not yet proclaimed. Which looked to us like a clear and definitive answer you can be held accountable to. But since yesterday you've told us that you were 'just giving your view' on his question. Neither LogicalFallacy nor I had any idea that were you doing this. We had to wait almost three weeks to find out what you were just giving your view. And we only found out after persistent and repeated requests from both of us, for you to commit yourself on the matter. So, to avoid this sort of thing happening again, can you please tell us from get go when you are giving a clear and definitive answer that you can be accountable to ...and when you aren't? If you can't be straight with us about Genesis 4, why should we believe you are going to be straight with us about any questions put to you about Genesis 12? Thanks, BAA. Before this thread goes too far Ironhorse, please tell us if your replies to any questions put to you will be... A A clear and definitive answer I will do my best. B. You just giving your view on the matter. I will say it is just my view. C. You speculating about this passage of scripture. I will state if I'm just speculating. D. Something else Whatever that might be. Sounds like a good standard for all of us here in the Lion's Den. "If you can't be straight with us about Genesis 4, why should we believe you are going to be straight with us about any questions put to you about Genesis 12?" That is subject is on another thread, no comment. So, in your OP Ironhorse, when you interpret Genesis 12 :3 to be about the nation of Israel, is that A,B,C or D..? (Bump!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted November 16, 2016 Author Share Posted November 16, 2016 TheRedneckProfessor Palestinian children are blessed by Israeli bombs. Before this thread devolves into anti Semitic rhetoric let us critical thinkers here take a proper balanced view. Both sides of this religious conflict (And the main problems are caused by religious fanatics on both sides) are blessed with bombs from the other side. There have been failures on all sides so attacking the stronger side because they are stronger is dishonest. Remember the people of Israel have given the world many technological advances, and many breakthroughs are made by people with Jewish heritage. Don't believe me? Go and look at the list of Nobel prize winners and note their ethnicity. That of course is not an excuse for any war atrocities committed by the Israelis, nor should any good done by any nation (Looking at the US) be an excuse for war atrocities. The point here is lets keep a fair critical and balanced look at things. You may want to learn the difference between The Jews (a race of people) and the Nation of Israel (a country founded and recognized by the UN in 1948) before presuming to lecture others on the finer points of critical thinking. There are clear genetic, and religious, distinctions between The Jews and the people of Israel. Many of the people of Israel are not even practicing Judaists; many are christian or muslim. Many of the people of Israel are not genetically Jewish, but practice Judaism. In your haste to confuse anti-Semitic rhetoric with simple acknowledgement of established, historical fact, you make the same mistake as Ironhorse in confusing the breakthroughs made by Jewish minds as having anything to do with Israel. The two are distinct and separate. There are Jews; and there are Israelis. In fact, many of the Jews responsible for the wonders of the modern world never set foot in Israel; some were long dead before Israel became a nation. Furthermore, pointing out that Palestinians have also been responsible for atrocity is much like accusing Native Americans of taking scalps from the white man. It happened and no one denies that. The question you should ask yourself, however, is "why?" The same applies to the Israel/Palestine situation; and attempting to equate the actions of one side with those of the other demonstrates a serious failure to understand the history and nature of the conflict. These are all basic things that any fair-minded, balanced, critical thinker should know. Have a good day, TRP TRP - I believe we may have mis-communicated. First let me admit 2 things: 1) My knowledge of the situation in the middle east is not expert. While I have tried to keep up with history and the conflict in the eara it's mainly been through Christian glasses - I haven't yet had time to study it afresh being more concerned with learning evolution etc. 2) What knowledge I do have may still be communicated through Christian understanding. With those admissions out of the way I'll adress your post. You appear to have taken my initial post as a lecture when is certainly was not, nor any intention to be. I know I quoted you, but only as an example of what I thought was a potential to devolve the thread into meaningless jibes on both sides. So no intention to lecture anyone there. My bit about 'critical thinking' has clearly been taken wrong, and entirely my fault as when I re read it it looks like I am directly accusing you of not being a critical thinker by seeming to refer to "us critical thinkers". Again this was miscommunication. What I meant was we all (all of us here, you, me, BAA etc) are, or at least should be, fairly critical thinkers so lets not fall into meaningless rhetoric. That's what I was trying to convey but clearly didn't. I am aware of the distinctions Israel vs Jews etc mentioned in your first two paragraphs, however to be fair it was hard to distinguish a short one line comment on the situation from rhetoric when all I had of your thoughts on the subject was one short line. As to your last paragraph, I would have hoped my reply to Ironhorse would have indicated that I was going down a path of "why" by going way back to the beginning. Obviously at the point I have gone (Numbers) its all fable, but I was hoping to work the conversation through. I'm not sure if this thread is the right place, and I need to read more history, but my memory seems to recall that the Jews were pushed out of Palestine by the Otterman empire? So possibly the start of the present day conflict is rooted way back then, not in 1948. Also I think there is a fundamental difference between the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and the destruction of the new world and that is the white man had never been in the new world as inhabitants before. The Hebrews/Jewish people, however, had at least lived in the land for some time if we take from the 1st century CE. Of course we can go back to the beginning as to how they got there... Anyway, I hope there is no bad feelings, the only person I feel inclined to lecture around here is probably Ironhorse - but he likes it that's why he comes back for more As expected several statements concerning Israel have been made early in this thread but I’m going to keep my comments related to my first post, at this time, to the numerous ways the world has benefited and enriched by the Jewish people. I think rjn agreed on their contributions and LogicalFallacy wrote the following: Remember the people of Israel have given the world many technological advances, and many breakthroughs are made by people with Jewish heritage." Thank you for quoting me Ironhorse - I also gave a specific example, and requested a specific response. Would you care to answer it instead of spouting stuff about Israeli technological advancements which most educated people will be aware of? It's great, awesome that they do so well. For a people to have come through the Holocaust and achieve what they have, very nice, except the conflict it has wrought. So, again, in light of Genesis 12, please explain Numbers 31:17-18. And as TRP mentioned, you can explain Palestinian bombs within this Genesis 12 understanding. It would be most interesting to get your views on these matters. " but I’m going to keep my comments related to my first post, at this time, to the numerous ways the world has benefited and enriched by the Jewish people." You don't think this line is somewhat dishonest in light of your opening line: "A thread about ALL things Israel"? Did you seriously expect us here to come to a thread like this and sit around sipping lemon tea gabbling endlessly about how great Israel is? I trust you are not deliberately trolling us? First, my understanding of Numbers 31: Numbers 31 can only be understood in its historical and context. It tells he account of a blood bath. Not easy reading for our 21th century minds. The Midianites were one of several, mostly nomadic Canaanite tribes that lived in the region. They were polytheists and practiced child sacrifice. The Midianites also loved to party. They loved promiscuous sex, drunkenness, and rocking with their idols. This was seducing to many in Israel. This is why, as recorded in Numbers 31 God commands Moses to take vengeance on them. This had to be stop to preserve Israel and God’s plan. What follows is a blood bath of an attack on the Midianites: “They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.” “Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.” “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.” Numbers 31:7-18 (NIV) Why the boys? Because if they lived the boys would soon be men and would only rise to seek vengeance against Israel. This is what they were taught to do. Why the women? God commanded the women who had been involved in the sexual sins to be killed. If allowed to live, God knew they would only continue in their prostitution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.B. Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 ...and why not the virgins? because the Israelites wanted them for themselves. Couldn't "god" have converted those loose women and turned them into righteous, Torah-abiding slaves like the Jewish women were? And wouldn't those girls have been "taught" to grow up to entice men? Your logic in defending your god is laughable, as is your reading of meanings into the text which simply aren't there. You're the one who, in another thread, says there are all sorts of things in the bible that can't be explained easily... yet here you are making a real go of it, and putting words in god's mouth, no less! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 The more Christians explain their beliefs... How did I ever swallow this silly bullshit. ???????? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 Pathetic apologetics are pathetic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted November 16, 2016 Moderator Share Posted November 16, 2016 TheRedneckProfessor Palestinian children are blessed by Israeli bombs. Before this thread devolves into anti Semitic rhetoric let us critical thinkers here take a proper balanced view. Both sides of this religious conflict (And the main problems are caused by religious fanatics on both sides) are blessed with bombs from the other side. There have been failures on all sides so attacking the stronger side because they are stronger is dishonest. Remember the people of Israel have given the world many technological advances, and many breakthroughs are made by people with Jewish heritage. Don't believe me? Go and look at the list of Nobel prize winners and note their ethnicity. That of course is not an excuse for any war atrocities committed by the Israelis, nor should any good done by any nation (Looking at the US) be an excuse for war atrocities. The point here is lets keep a fair critical and balanced look at things. You may want to learn the difference between The Jews (a race of people) and the Nation of Israel (a country founded and recognized by the UN in 1948) before presuming to lecture others on the finer points of critical thinking. There are clear genetic, and religious, distinctions between The Jews and the people of Israel. Many of the people of Israel are not even practicing Judaists; many are christian or muslim. Many of the people of Israel are not genetically Jewish, but practice Judaism. In your haste to confuse anti-Semitic rhetoric with simple acknowledgement of established, historical fact, you make the same mistake as Ironhorse in confusing the breakthroughs made by Jewish minds as having anything to do with Israel. The two are distinct and separate. There are Jews; and there are Israelis. In fact, many of the Jews responsible for the wonders of the modern world never set foot in Israel; some were long dead before Israel became a nation. Furthermore, pointing out that Palestinians have also been responsible for atrocity is much like accusing Native Americans of taking scalps from the white man. It happened and no one denies that. The question you should ask yourself, however, is "why?" The same applies to the Israel/Palestine situation; and attempting to equate the actions of one side with those of the other demonstrates a serious failure to understand the history and nature of the conflict. These are all basic things that any fair-minded, balanced, critical thinker should know. Have a good day, TRP TRP - I believe we may have mis-communicated. First let me admit 2 things: 1) My knowledge of the situation in the middle east is not expert. While I have tried to keep up with history and the conflict in the eara it's mainly been through Christian glasses - I haven't yet had time to study it afresh being more concerned with learning evolution etc. 2) What knowledge I do have may still be communicated through Christian understanding. With those admissions out of the way I'll adress your post. You appear to have taken my initial post as a lecture when is certainly was not, nor any intention to be. I know I quoted you, but only as an example of what I thought was a potential to devolve the thread into meaningless jibes on both sides. So no intention to lecture anyone there. My bit about 'critical thinking' has clearly been taken wrong, and entirely my fault as when I re read it it looks like I am directly accusing you of not being a critical thinker by seeming to refer to "us critical thinkers". Again this was miscommunication. What I meant was we all (all of us here, you, me, BAA etc) are, or at least should be, fairly critical thinkers so lets not fall into meaningless rhetoric. That's what I was trying to convey but clearly didn't. I am aware of the distinctions Israel vs Jews etc mentioned in your first two paragraphs, however to be fair it was hard to distinguish a short one line comment on the situation from rhetoric when all I had of your thoughts on the subject was one short line. As to your last paragraph, I would have hoped my reply to Ironhorse would have indicated that I was going down a path of "why" by going way back to the beginning. Obviously at the point I have gone (Numbers) its all fable, but I was hoping to work the conversation through. I'm not sure if this thread is the right place, and I need to read more history, but my memory seems to recall that the Jews were pushed out of Palestine by the Otterman empire? So possibly the start of the present day conflict is rooted way back then, not in 1948. Also I think there is a fundamental difference between the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and the destruction of the new world and that is the white man had never been in the new world as inhabitants before. The Hebrews/Jewish people, however, had at least lived in the land for some time if we take from the 1st century CE. Of course we can go back to the beginning as to how they got there... Anyway, I hope there is no bad feelings, the only person I feel inclined to lecture around here is probably Ironhorse - but he likes it that's why he comes back for more As expected several statements concerning Israel have been made early in this thread but I’m going to keep my comments related to my first post, at this time, to the numerous ways the world has benefited and enriched by the Jewish people. I think rjn agreed on their contributions and LogicalFallacy wrote the following: Remember the people of Israel have given the world many technological advances, and many breakthroughs are made by people with Jewish heritage." Thank you for quoting me Ironhorse - I also gave a specific example, and requested a specific response. Would you care to answer it instead of spouting stuff about Israeli technological advancements which most educated people will be aware of? It's great, awesome that they do so well. For a people to have come through the Holocaust and achieve what they have, very nice, except the conflict it has wrought. So, again, in light of Genesis 12, please explain Numbers 31:17-18. And as TRP mentioned, you can explain Palestinian bombs within this Genesis 12 understanding. It would be most interesting to get your views on these matters. " but I’m going to keep my comments related to my first post, at this time, to the numerous ways the world has benefited and enriched by the Jewish people." You don't think this line is somewhat dishonest in light of your opening line: "A thread about ALL things Israel"? Did you seriously expect us here to come to a thread like this and sit around sipping lemon tea gabbling endlessly about how great Israel is? I trust you are not deliberately trolling us? First, my understanding of Numbers 31: Numbers 31 can only be understood in its historical and context. It tells he account of a blood bath. Not easy reading for our 21th century minds. The Midianites were one of several, mostly nomadic Canaanite tribes that lived in the region. They were polytheists and practiced child sacrifice. The Midianites also loved to party. They loved promiscuous sex, drunkenness, and rocking with their idols. This was seducing to many in Israel. This is why, as recorded in Numbers 31 God commands Moses to take vengeance on them. This had to be stop to preserve Israel and God’s plan. What follows is a blood bath of an attack on the Midianites: “They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.” “Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.” “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.” Numbers 31:7-18 (NIV) Why the boys? Because if they lived the boys would soon be men and would only rise to seek vengeance against Israel. This is what they were taught to do. Why the women? God commanded the women who had been involved in the sexual sins to be killed. If allowed to live, God knew they would only continue in their prostitution. Ironhorse, thanks for your reply. Your explanation is pretty much along the lines of apologetics such as William Lane Craig. I used to believe such, I now find it morally abhorrent. I think the bible is forcing you to justify actions that you would not otherwise ever justify. I find that sad. First - do you have a source, other than the Bible, of what the Canaanites were like, their culture etc? At this point I would like to point to historical evidence showing that the Israelite's WERE one of these nomadic Canaanite tribes and mixing with the other tribes. [ The Bible Unearthed, Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman ] Naturally this is not conclusive, but shows far more evidence to support the proposition that the Israelite's were part of Cannan, and mixed with, and took stories from other tribes in the area, than there is evidence for an exodus of 2 million people plus much cattle... which is zero! Seriously, the only evidence for an exodus from Egypt in the time period we are talking about is the Hyksos. Fur further discussion on the topic, here is a review of the Bible unearthed - the comments at the bottom are interesting and have differing views. Back to actually discussing what is written in the bible, and Ironhorse's attempts at justifying it: In regards to justifying these writings, we have a failure among Christians to reason honestly, or care sufficiently. (To quote Sam Harris) Think of this: God, all knowing, all powerful, all loving, is so weak, so human, that he must resort to violence to fix any problems with humans. This is a God that CHOOSES to tell Moses to go to war, rather than putting an understanding in the minds of all people of his will, what is right and wrong etc. God tells Moses to butcher the people from which his wife came from (See Exodus 2:15-22 ) Regarding the young boys - so conversion was out of the question then? Teaching them to be good was beyond Gods power? By killing young male children BEFORE they have committed any act against God is prejudging them. You might say well God knew what they would do therefore killed them before they could do it - however, this takes away entire the concept of free will. The Women - so are you absolutely certain that EVERY woman committed these 'sins' or again is it all must die for the sins of some? What of the Hebrew men who also committed these sins? Again you have this extremely misogynistic God view coming through that its the women who are bad. Again, an honest reading of the events would lead to the conclusion that innocent people were murdered at the behest of a God - one who says "Thou shalt not kill". And we still have the question of why keep the young girls? - if the Midianite seed was corrupt and lead them astray why keep the girls? Wasn't the Hebrew line to be kept clean? There is no justification or reason for keeping those girls in the Bible. I'm not sure what you assume, but again an honest reading will conclude it's like the men wanted them to have sex with and breed from. Yes this was the kind of culture we are dealing with, NO it DOES NOT justify God. In summary, in relation to all nations being blessed, this is obviously patently false. The Midianites got wiped from existence. No blessing there. In light of all the above How do you justify the competing, and I'd say mutually exclusive ideas of: an 1) omniscient all loving God, 2) a God that will order innocent people to be killed to prevent a supposed future crime, and 3) a God that allows free will? Another point I'd like to raise is the Hebrews taking slaves from captives - rather ironic don't you think, that a people who has so recently been brought out of slavery by the hand of God, were now keeping slaves with God's blessing? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted November 26, 2016 Share Posted November 26, 2016 A thread on all things Israel. I thought I would start with this promised blessing from Genesis 12: ‘’…and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.” I think we can agree that the world has benefited and been enriched by the Jewish peoples contributions and achievements in literature, music, technology, science, and medicine. Before this thread goes too far Ironhorse, please tell us if your replies to any questions put to you will be... A A clear and definitive answer B. You just giving your view on the matter C. You speculating about this passage of scripture D. Something else I ask because your Oct 14 answer to LogicalFallacy's question about Genesis 4 in this thread... http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/74143-in-the-beginning/#.WBpDPS2LSpo ... was this. Since Adam lived several hundred years, having lots of children was not a problem. This would mean that Cain married a sister, niece, or some other relation, and their children had children, etc. The genetic line in these early times was pure. So the prohibition against incest was not yet proclaimed. Which looked to us like a clear and definitive answer you can be held accountable to. But since yesterday you've told us that you were 'just giving your view' on his question. Neither LogicalFallacy nor I had any idea that were you doing this. We had to wait almost three weeks to find out what you were just giving your view. And we only found out after persistent and repeated requests from both of us, for you to commit yourself on the matter. So, to avoid this sort of thing happening again, can you please tell us from get go when you are giving a clear and definitive answer that you can be accountable to ...and when you aren't? If you can't be straight with us about Genesis 4, why should we believe you are going to be straight with us about any questions put to you about Genesis 12? Thanks, BAA. Before this thread goes too far Ironhorse, please tell us if your replies to any questions put to you will be... A A clear and definitive answer I will do my best. B. You just giving your view on the matter. I will say it is just my view. C. You speculating about this passage of scripture. I will state if I'm just speculating. D. Something else Whatever that might be. Sounds like a good standard for all of us here in the Lion's Den. "If you can't be straight with us about Genesis 4, why should we believe you are going to be straight with us about any questions put to you about Genesis 12?" That is subject is on another thread, no comment. So, in your OP Ironhorse, when you interpret Genesis 12 :3 to be about the nation of Israel, is that A,B,C or D..? (Bump!) So, in your OP Ironhorse, when you interpret Genesis 12 :3 to be about the nation of Israel, is that A,B,C or D..? (Please pick just one option.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjn Posted November 26, 2016 Share Posted November 26, 2016 You just gotta love it when a decent human being like IH tries to reconcile those horrible stories with being just that, a decent human being. "Uh... well, those stories may SEEM horrible, but really, it's an inspiritional message! And God is totally not a prick!". "Abusive partner? No, I swear, I DID fall in the stairs!". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realist Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 First, my understanding of Numbers 31: But Iron Horse. Did you yourself not say these words? "I love the Christian message for its simplicity" So why is this "your" understanding of Numbers 31? I hope you are still not saying this message is as SIMPLE as YOU were trying to state to us? That is dishonesty! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 First, my understanding of Numbers 31: But Iron Horse. Did you yourself not say these words? "I love the Christian message for its simplicity" So why is this "your" understanding of Numbers 31? I hope you are still not saying this message is as SIMPLE as YOU were trying to state to us? That is dishonesty! Realist, When Ironhorse says that 'the Christian message' is simple, what he is actually referring to is the simplicity of his "relationship" with Jesus. Not that the Bible is simple to understand. These are two different things. For him the simple Christian message comes down to just believing in Christ and ignoring, dismissing or downplaying any difficulties that the rest of the Bible throws up. We can see this from his other posts in that thread. Oct 13, post # 18. "This is the wonder of simplicity of the Christian message….the good news of the Gospel. It’s free! I can’t do a thing to earn it." Oct 21, post # 38. "Yes, that was the point I am trying to make here. It’s like the thief of the cross who turns to Christ and just asked to be remembered. Christ heard him and knew his heart." Oct 24, post # 67. "In all the belief systems you listed, salvation is not achieved by a simple yes, I believe." Nov 14, post # 82. "I have never said the Bible is easy to understand nor have I claimed to know the meaning of every “jot and tittle”, but I do know that salvation is easy to understand and it is free." Nov 16, post # 93. I love the Christian message for its simplicity. I don’t need a priest, a guru or obey long list of man-made requirements. I simply believe in Christ and go from there. The "believe in Christ" is the simplicity of the Gospel message. It is where I start an a believer. I totally agree with you that there are concepts and passages of scriptures that are far from simple and some I do not understand, but if you insists on turning over every "jot and tittle" in place before you respond to the message of verses like John 3:16, it is never going to happen because it can't be done. God has not chosen to reveal all or nor did he intend the scriptures to answer our every question. The scriptures do not record any account of a person who knew all about God. As Paul put it, we are looking through a glass darkly." So, despite our repeated requests for him to consider the difficulties thrown up by Genesis or other books of the Bible - he won't do it. Even if Jesus' free gift of salvation depends on the authenticity of them. Even if Jesus' very existence depends on them. Even if, when seriously considered, they refute and negate everything Jesus freely offers. Ironhorse won't do it. He simply loves Jesus and he won't let any evidence or any historical fact, any scientific finding, any logical argument or any scriptural contradiction get in the way of his blind and unquestioning love for Jesus. A while back, when asked what would cause him to give up his faith in Jesus, his one word answer was...'nothing'. Not so long ago, when I asked him what he should if Jesus' bones were exhumed, he refused to give the right and proper, honest answer - that he should give up his faith. He won't do it, Realist. And so, in our eyes that makes him dishonest. An honest person, when confronted by undeniable facts, changes their mind. But he won't. Thanks, BAA. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 This has been obvious for years now, BAA. Sigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 This has been obvious for years now, BAA. Sigh. Agree, Ficino. But we must still inform any lurkers and newbies who don't yet know about Ironhorse's dishonesty. If he's never going to be honest with us, then we must never stop exposing his lack of honesty. Not long after he joined Ex-C I PMed him and predicted that his threads would soon devolve into little more than a clash of wills. 'nuff said? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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