Israel

[sdelsolray]

I've come to consider IH's lack of response (or off point/non-sequitur response) to many many points/questions/arguments raised on this forum over the last two or three years are not so much pure dishonesty but instead are a lack of awareness with a strong tendency to shun and avoid difficult questions - cowardice by another word.  It is more akin to intellectual dishonesty, willful ignorance and misrepresentation by omission.  His emotional needs overpower his rational mind.

 

This is common among those indoctrinated with the Christian religion, as well as other religions.  IH's indoctrination is about five decades old and well ingrained.  The related peer pressure from those around him reinforces the indoctrination.  His need to believe in an afterlife for himself and his loved ones is quite strong.

 

His wishful thinking (i.e., religious faith) is so pervasive that he has become an indoctrinator himself.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

 

 

A thread on all things Israel.

 

 

I thought I would start with this promised blessing from Genesis 12:

 

‘’…and all peoples on earth

will be blessed through you.”

 

I think we can agree that the world has benefited and been enriched by the Jewish peoples contributions and achievements in literature, music, technology, science, and medicine.

 

 

 

Before this thread goes too far Ironhorse, please tell us if your replies to any questions put to you will be...

 

A  A clear and definitive answer

B. You just giving your view on the matter

C. You speculating about this passage of scripture

D. Something else

 

I ask because your Oct 14 answer to LogicalFallacy's question about Genesis 4 in this thread...  http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/74143-in-the-beginning/#.WBpDPS2LSpo   ... was this.

 

Since Adam lived several hundred years, having lots of children was not a problem.  This would mean that Cain married a sister, niece, or some other relation, and their children had children, etc.

The genetic line in these early times was pure. So the prohibition against incest was not yet proclaimed.

 

Which looked to us like a clear and definitive answer you can be held accountable to.

But since yesterday you've told us that you were 'just giving your view' on his question.  Neither LogicalFallacy nor I had any idea that were you doing this.  We had to wait almost three weeks to find out what you were just giving your view.  And we only found out after persistent and repeated requests from both of us, for you to commit yourself on the matter.  So, to avoid this sort of thing happening again, can you please tell us from get go when you are giving a clear and definitive answer that you can be accountable to ...and when you aren't?

 

If you can't be straight with us about Genesis 4, why should we believe you are going to be straight with us about any questions put to you about Genesis 12?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

 

Before this thread goes too far Ironhorse, please tell us if your replies to any questions put to you will be...

 

A  A clear and definitive answer

 

I will do my best.

B. You just giving your view on the matter.

 

I will say it is just my view.

C. You speculating about this passage of scripture.

 

I will state if I'm just speculating. 

D. Something else

 

Whatever that might be. 

 

 

Sounds like a good standard for all of us here in the Lion's Den. 

 

 

"If you can't be straight with us about Genesis 4, why should we believe you are going to be straight with us about any questions put to you about Genesis 12?"

 

That is subject is on another thread, no comment. 

 

 

So, in your OP Ironhorse, when you interpret Genesis 12 :3 to be about the nation of Israel, is that A,B,C or D..?

 

 

(Bump!)

 

 

So, in your OP Ironhorse, when you interpret Genesis 12 :3 to be about the nation of Israel, is that A,B,C or D..?

 

(Please pick just one option.)

 

 

(Re-re-bump!)

[LogicalFallacy]

 

 

As expected several statements concerning Israel have been made early in this thread but I’m going to keep my comments related to my first post, at this time, to the numerous ways the world has benefited and enriched by the Jewish people.

 

I think rjn agreed on their contributions and LogicalFallacy wrote the following:

 

Remember the people of Israel have given the world many technological advances, and many breakthroughs are made by people with Jewish heritage."

 

 

 

Thank you for quoting me Ironhorse - I also gave a specific example, and requested a specific response. Would you care to answer it instead of spouting stuff about Israeli technological advancements which most educated people will be aware of? It's great, awesome that they do so well. For a people to have come through the Holocaust and achieve what they have, very nice, except the conflict it has wrought. So, again, in light of Genesis 12, please explain Numbers 31:17-18. And as TRP mentioned, you can explain Palestinian bombs within this Genesis 12 understanding. It would be most interesting to get your views on these matters.

 

" but I’m going to keep my comments related to my first post, at this time, to the numerous ways the world has benefited and enriched by the Jewish people."

 

You don't think this line is somewhat dishonest in light of your opening line: "A thread about ALL things Israel"?

 

Did you seriously expect us here to come to a thread like this and sit around sipping lemon tea gabbling endlessly about how great Israel is? I trust you are not deliberately trolling us?

 

 

First, my understanding of Numbers 31:

 

Numbers 31 can only be understood in its historical and context. It tells he account of a blood bath. Not easy reading for our 21th century minds.

 

The Midianites were one of several, mostly nomadic Canaanite tribes that lived in the region. They were polytheists and practiced child sacrifice. The Midianites also loved to party. They loved promiscuous sex, drunkenness, and rocking with their idols.

This was seducing to many in Israel. This is why, as recorded in Numbers 31 God commands Moses to take vengeance on them. This had to be stop to preserve Israel and God’s plan.

 

What follows is a blood bath of an attack on the Midianites:

 

“They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.”

 

“Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.”

“Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.”

Numbers 31:7-18 (NIV)

 

 

Why the boys? Because if they lived the boys would soon be men and would only rise to seek vengeance against Israel. This is what they were taught to do.

 

Why the women? God commanded the women who had been involved in the sexual sins to be killed. If allowed to live, God knew they would only continue in their prostitution.

 

Ironhorse, thanks for your reply.

 

Your explanation is pretty much along the lines of apologetics such as William Lane Craig. I used to believe such, I now find it morally abhorrent. I think the bible is forcing you to justify actions that you would not otherwise ever justify. I find that sad.

 

First - do you have a source, other than the Bible, of what the Canaanites were like, their culture etc? At this point I would like to point to historical evidence showing that the Israelite's WERE one of these nomadic Canaanite tribes and mixing with the other tribes. [ The Bible Unearthed, Israel Finkelstein and [/size]Neil Asher Silberman ] Naturally this is not conclusive, but shows far more evidence to support the proposition that the Israelite's were part of Cannan, and mixed with, and took stories from other tribes in the area, than there is evidence for an exodus of 2 million people plus much cattle... which is zero! Seriously, the only evidence for an exodus from Egypt in the time period we are talking about is the Hyksos. Fur further discussion on the topic, here is a review of the Bible unearthed - the comments at the bottom are interesting and have differing views.

 

Back to actually discussing what is written in the bible, and Ironhorse's attempts at justifying it:

In regards to justifying these writings, we have a failure among Christians to reason honestly, or care sufficiently. (To quote Sam Harris)

 

Think of this: God, all knowing, all powerful, all loving, is so weak, so human, that he must resort to violence to fix any problems with humans. This is a God that CHOOSES to tell Moses to go to war, rather than putting an understanding in the minds of all people of his will, what is right and wrong etc. God tells Moses to butcher the people from which his wife came from (See Exodus 2:15-22 )

 

Regarding the young boys - so conversion was out of the question then? Teaching them to be good was beyond Gods power? By killing young male children BEFORE they have committed any act against God is prejudging them. You might say well God knew what they would do therefore killed them before they could do it - however, this takes away entire the concept of free will.

 

The Women - so are you absolutely certain that EVERY woman committed these 'sins' or again is it all must die for the sins of some? What of the Hebrew men who also committed these sins? Again you have this extremely misogynistic God view coming through that its the women who are bad. Again, an honest reading of the events would lead to the conclusion that innocent people were murdered at the behest of a God - one who says "Thou shalt not kill".

 

And we still have the question of why keep the young girls? - if the Midianite seed was corrupt and lead them astray why keep the girls? Wasn't the Hebrew line to be kept clean? There is no justification or reason for keeping those girls in the Bible. I'm not sure what you assume, but again an honest reading will conclude it's like the men wanted them to have sex with and breed from. Yes this was the kind of culture we are dealing with, NO it DOES NOT justify God.

 

In summary, in relation to all nations being blessed, this is obviously patently false. The Midianites got wiped from existence. No blessing there. In light of all the above How do you justify the competing, and I'd say mutually exclusive ideas of: an 1) omniscient all loving God, 2) a God that will order innocent people to be killed to prevent a supposed future crime, and 3) a God that allows free will?

 

Another point I'd like to raise is the Hebrews taking slaves from captives - rather ironic don't you think, that a people who has so recently been brought out of slavery by the hand of God, were now keeping slaves with God's blessing?

 

Cleaned up quoted post and bump.

Note Ironhorse has been MIA since the 17th.

[L.B.]

An omniscient god cannot exist in a world with free will.

 

An omniscient god knows immediately what everyone will do, and judges instantly.

 

The pre-judged person, therefore, is prohibited from exercising a free will, because no matter what they choose of their own volition, they have already been judged by a god who knew everything they would do long before they did it.

[bornagainathiest]

This has just been PMed to Ironhorse.

 

In future any re-bumps for Ironhorse's attention will be made here and via the private messaging system.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Posted 28 November 2016 - 05:35 PM

bornagainathiest, on 26 Nov 2016 - 8:21 PM, said:

 

bornagainathiest, on 15 Nov 2016 - 9:13 PM, said:

 

bornagainathiest, on 14 Nov 2016 - 07:00 AM, said:

 

ironhorse, on 14 Nov 2016 - 05:29 AM, said:

 

bornagainathiest, on 02 Nov 2016 - 8:10 PM, said:

 

ironhorse, on 02 Nov 2016 - 3:54 PM, said:

A thread on all things Israel.

 

 

I thought I would start with this promised blessing from Genesis 12:

 

‘’…and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.”

 

I think we can agree that the world has benefited and been enriched by the Jewish peoples contributions and achievements in literature, music, technology, science, and medicine.

 

 

 

Before this thread goes too far Ironhorse, please tell us if your replies to any questions put to you will be...

 

A  A clear and definitive answer

B. You just giving your view on the matter

C. You speculating about this passage of scripture

D. Something else

 

I ask because your Oct 14 answer to LogicalFallacy's question about Genesis 4 in this thread...  http://www.ex-christ...g/#.WBpDPS2LSpo   ... was this.

 

Since Adam lived several hundred years, having lots of children was not a problem.  This would mean that Cain married a sister, niece, or some other relation, and their children had children, etc.

The genetic line in these early times was pure. So the prohibition against incest was not yet proclaimed.

 

Which looked to us like a clear and definitive answer you can be held accountable to.

But since yesterday you've told us that you were 'just giving your view' on his question.  Neither LogicalFallacy nor I had any idea that were you doing this.  We had to wait almost three weeks to find out what you were just giving your view.  And we only found out after persistent and repeated requests from both of us, for you to commit yourself on the matter.  So, to avoid this sort of thing happening again, can you please tell us from get go when you are giving a clear and definitive answer that you can be accountable to ...and when you aren't?

 

If you can't be straight with us about Genesis 4, why should we believe you are going to be straight with us about any questions put to you about Genesis 12?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

 

Before this thread goes too far Ironhorse, please tell us if your replies to any questions put to you will be...

A  A clear and definitive answer

 

I will do my best.

B. You just giving your view on the matter.

 

I will say it is just my view.

C. You speculating about this passage of scripture.

 

I will state if I'm just speculating. 

D. Something else

 

Whatever that might be. 

 

 

Sounds like a good standard for all of us here in the Lion's Den. 

 

 

"If you can't be straight with us about Genesis 4, why should we believe you are going to be straight with us about any questions put to you about Genesis 12?"

 

That is subject is on another thread, no comment. 

 

 

So, in your OP Ironhorse, when you interpret Genesis 12 :3 to be about the nation of Israel, is that A,B,C or D..?

 

 

(Bump!)

 

 

So, in your OP Ironhorse, when you interpret Genesis 12 :3 to be about the nation of Israel, is that A,B,C or D..?

 

(Please pick just one option.)

 

 

(Re-re-bump!)

 

[ironhorse]

 

A thread on all things Israel.

 

 

I thought I would start with this promised blessing from Genesis 12:

 

‘’…and all peoples on earth

will be blessed through you.”

 

I think we can agree that the world has benefited and been enriched by the Jewish peoples contributions and achievements in literature, music, technology, science, and medicine.

 

According to Pastor Matthew of the Grace Valley Christian Center this blessing refers specifically to the spiritual blessing Jesus Christ would bring to the whole world.

 

Not to any of the secular, cultural or scientific benefits the nation of Israel would bring to the whole world.

 

http://www.gracevalley.org/sermon/gods-plan-to-bless-all-the-families-of-the-earth/

 

Looks like you're trying to make scripture say something that it wasn't meant to!

 

 

 

 

I emailed Pastor Matthew and asked him did he mean only the spiritual blessings or could this also include the other contributions made by the Jewish people. So far, he has not replied.

 

It has been my understanding, from what I have read and heard from others, that this blessing has a double meaning. Yes, Christ is the ultimate blessing to the world, but it also a prophecy on how the Jews as a people will bless the world.

 

I called my brother who is pastor and he replied that obviously when one looks at the many contributions made, the passage in Genesis 12 does refer to both. This view is not unorthodox.

 

This view from a Messianic Jew site:

http://ffoz.org/discover/life-in-israel/a-blessing-to-the-nations.html

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Why would you ask Pastor Matthew? Was it because you asked jesus and never got an answer?

[LogicalFallacy]

Brutal TRP, brutal

 

Ironhorse, my dear friend! You are back! Please see the other threads in the den and respond to BAA and myself.

 

Thanks

LF

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

A thread on all things Israel.

 

 

I thought I would start with this promised blessing from Genesis 12:

 

‘’…and all peoples on earth

will be blessed through you.”

 

I think we can agree that the world has benefited and been enriched by the Jewish peoples contributions and achievements in literature, music, technology, science, and medicine.

 

According to Pastor Matthew of the Grace Valley Christian Center this blessing refers specifically to the spiritual blessing Jesus Christ would bring to the whole world.

 

Not to any of the secular, cultural or scientific benefits the nation of Israel would bring to the whole world.

 

http://www.gracevalley.org/sermon/gods-plan-to-bless-all-the-families-of-the-earth/

 

Looks like you're trying to make scripture say something that it wasn't meant to!

 

 

 

 

I emailed Pastor Matthew and asked him did he mean only the spiritual blessings or could this also include the other contributions made by the Jewish people. So far, he has not replied.

 

It has been my understanding, from what I have read and heard from others, that this blessing has a double meaning. Yes, Christ is the ultimate blessing to the world, but it also a prophecy on how the Jews as a people will bless the world.

 

I called my brother who is pastor and he replied that obviously when one looks at the many contributions made, the passage in Genesis 12 does refer to both. This view is not unorthodox.

 

This view from a Messianic Jew site:

http://ffoz.org/discover/life-in-israel/a-blessing-to-the-nations.html

 

 

But neither your brother nor you are Jews or Messianic Jews, Ironhorse.  You are both Gentiles.  

 

And Paul (the apostle to the Gentiles) asks the Gentile church of Galatia if they received the Holy Spirit by going back to the Old Testament ways of the Jews.

 

Galatians 3 : 1 - 6.

 

You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 

2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law,or by believing what you heard? 

3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 

4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain?

5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 

6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

 

You are going back further than the Law and when you started this thread you read God's promise to Abram as if it only meant the nation of Israel.

 

Which as Paul explains, is something only the Jews do.  

 

So why are you (a Gentile) reading Genesis 12 : 3 from an exclusively Jewish viewpoint?  

 

And Yes, that's exactly what you did do.

.

.

.

Posted 02 November 2016 - 10:54 AM 

A thread on all things Israel.

 

I thought I would start with this promised blessing from Genesis 12:

 

‘’…and all peoples on earth

will be blessed through you.”

 

I think we can agree that the world has benefited and been enriched by the Jewish peoples contributions and achievements in literature, music, technology, science, and medicine.

[Jeff]

Rut-roh! *said in Scooby voice*

[ironhorse]

Why would you ask Pastor Matthew? Was it because you asked jesus and never got an answer?
~ TheRedneckProfessor

 

You might see some sleazy false preachers on TV claiming to now hear the audible voice of God, but you should know I’m not one of them.

 

Brutal TRP, brutal biggrin.png
Ironhorse, my dear friend! You are back! Please see the other threads in the den and respond to BAA and myself.
Thanks
~ LF

 

Thanks, things have just been busy lately. I hope to spend more time here this week and onward. I am working on some replies to you, BAA and others. I will post soon.

 

But neither your brother nor you are Jews or Messianic Jews, Ironhorse.  You are both Gentiles. 
And Paul (the apostle to the Gentiles) asks the Gentile church of Galatia if they received the Holy Spirit by going back to the Old Testament ways of the Jews.
~ bornagainathiest

 

Did you not read the Messianic Jewish site I posted on this subject?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Ironhorse,

Are you suggesting that the holy spirit does not speak to you and guide you as the scriptures claim it should for all believers? Thanks.

Have a good day,

TheRedneckProfessor

[bornagainathiest]

Why would you ask Pastor Matthew? Was it because you asked jesus and never got an answer?

~ TheRedneckProfessor

 

You might see some sleazy false preachers on TV claiming to now hear the audible voice of God, but you should know I’m not one of them.

 

Brutal TRP, brutal biggrin.png

Ironhorse, my dear friend! You are back! Please see the other threads in the den and respond to BAA and myself.

Thanks

~ LF

 

Thanks, things have just been busy lately. I hope to spend more time here this week and onward. I am working on some replies to you, BAA and others. I will post soon.

 

But neither your brother nor you are Jews or Messianic Jews, Ironhorse.  You are both Gentiles. 

And Paul (the apostle to the Gentiles) asks the Gentile church of Galatia if they received the Holy Spirit by going back to the Old Testament ways of the Jews.

~ bornagainathiest

 

Did you not read the Messianic Jewish site I posted on this subject?

 

And did you not read what I wrote about you not being either a Jew or a Messianic Jew?

 

You, a Gentile Christian, posted an exclusively Jewish interpretation of Genesis 12 : 3, in your OP.

 

Which, as Paul explains to the Galatians and Ephesians, is not the full and proper understanding that a Gentile Christian should either hold to or preach publicly.

 

Your way is the way of Christ, not the way of the nation of Israel.

 

That way is held to only by the Jews and they neither accept, believe in nor honor Jesus Christ. 

 

So, by publicly preaching Israel over Christ like this you are making the same kind of error as the churches of Ephesus and Galatia.

.

.

.

Posting a link to a Messianic Jewish site doesn't alter the fact that for 31 days you were publicly preaching this error.

 

Furthermore, if I hadn't prodded you into action with repeated requests for a reply and then finally a private message, you'd STILL BE publicly preaching this error.

 

And please don't respond by saying that you 'weren't preaching', Ironhorse.

 

You wrote and put this information out there, for all to read.

 

So, it's your responsibility.

 

 

.

.

.

You may not to be sleazy, false preacher ...but you do handle God's word irresponsibly, with carelessness and negligence.

 

Or would you care to dispute that, Ironhorse?

[Jeff]

BAA, you have made many excellent points in recent months. This current conversation (along with your points regarding a literal Adam & Eve) have really shown the flaws and weaknesses in IH's arguments.

 

I am personally happy that so many lurking are able to see this.

 

I wish I had read such good biblically sound teaching when I was deconverting. I cannot fathom how IH can remain without doubt after going so many rounds here with such excellent rebuttals to his personal buffet of cherry-picked beliefs. I would not take so much pleasure in seeing someone's belief system torn down except that he comes here to sway people himself so good enough for him.

 

I quit having even the slightest of doubts long ago after never seeing any xtians EVER have a strong argument that they can honestly defend without falling back to some poor defensive retreat.

[bornagainathiest]

BAA, you have made many excellent points in recent months. This current conversation (along with your points regarding a literal Adam & Eve) have really shown the flaws and weaknesses in IH's arguments.

 

I am personally happy that so many lurking are able to see this.

 

I wish I had read such good biblically sound teaching when I was deconverting. I cannot fathom how IH can remain without doubt after going so many rounds here with such excellent rebuttals to his personal buffet of cherry-picked beliefs. I would not take so much pleasure in seeing someone's belief system torn down except that he comes here to sway people himself so good enough for him.

 

I quit having even the slightest of doubts long ago after never seeing any xtians EVER have a strong argument that they can honestly defend without falling back to some poor defensive retreat.

 

Well, to be fair Jeff... you should include LogicalFallacy in your praise.

 

He's also made some damn good points in the short time he's been here and he's also not inclined to let Ironhorse off the hook, either.

 

Both of us would like to see Ironhorse step up and take responsibility for what he has written.

 

Sadly, he seems to lack either the will or the ability to write the words, 'I was wrong.'

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[LogicalFallacy]

 I cannot fathom how IH can remain without doubt after going so many rounds here with such excellent rebuttals to his personal buffet of cherry-picked beliefs. I would not take so much pleasure in seeing someone's belief system torn down except that he comes here to sway people himself so good enough for him.

 

After seeing, or rather hearing my own father brush off arguments like water off a ducks back, IH's resilience does not surprise me. The same info that caused me to stop and question simply has caused my father to dig in further into his beliefs. It's an amazing phenomenon that normally intelligent people can say stuff, and you say well apply that to your beliefs.. "Oh but that doesn't count" I think people have firewalls and nothing breaches the firewall. To ask questions honestly you must be willing to lower the firewall in the first place.

 

 

 

Well, to be fair Jeff... you should include LogicalFallacy in your praise.

 

He's also made some damn good points in the short time he's been here and he's also not inclined to let Ironhorse off the hook, either.

 

Both of us would like to see Ironhorse step up and take responsibility for what he has written.

 

Sadly, he seems to lack either the will or the ability to write the words, 'I was wrong.'

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

Thanks BAA, I will certainly endeavor to keep up the 'good work' as we continue to debate,  and educate people in the future, including might I add, myself. I've learned so much more since coming to Ex-C and reading everyone's contributions.

[Jeff]

 

I cannot fathom how IH can remain without doubt after going so many rounds here with such excellent rebuttals to his personal buffet of cherry-picked beliefs. I would not take so much pleasure in seeing someone's belief system torn down except that he comes here to sway people himself so good enough for him.

 

After seeing, or rather hearing my own father brush off arguments like water off a ducks back, IH's resilience does not surprise me. The same info that caused me to stop and question simply has caused my father to dig in further into his beliefs. It's an amazing phenomenon that normally intelligent people can say stuff, and you say well apply that to your beliefs.. "Oh but that doesn't count" I think people have firewalls and nothing breaches the firewall. To ask questions honestly you must be willing to lower the firewall in the first place.

 

 

Well, to be fair Jeff... you should include LogicalFallacy in your praise.

 

He's also made some damn good points in the short time he's been here and he's also not inclined to let Ironhorse off the hook, either.

 

Both of us would like to see Ironhorse step up and take responsibility for what he has written.

 

Sadly, he seems to lack either the will or the ability to write the words, 'I was wrong.'

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

Thanks BAA, I will certainly endeavor to keep up the 'good work' as we continue to debate, and educate people in the future, including might I add, myself. I've learned so much more since coming to Ex-C and reading everyone's contributions.

BAA is right. You have been bringing some great arguments.

Lurkers pay attention!

[Jeff]

Yeah that "digging in" with faith... tragic mistake

[LogicalFallacy]

Yeah that "digging in" with faith... tragic mistake

It's the only real defence mechanism that works, because, as we know, defending religion with reason and logic... that fails.

[bornagainathiest]

 

Why would you ask Pastor Matthew? Was it because you asked jesus and never got an answer?

~ TheRedneckProfessor

 

You might see some sleazy false preachers on TV claiming to now hear the audible voice of God, but you should know I’m not one of them.

 

Brutal TRP, brutal biggrin.png

Ironhorse, my dear friend! You are back! Please see the other threads in the den and respond to BAA and myself.

Thanks

~ LF

 

Thanks, things have just been busy lately. I hope to spend more time here this week and onward. I am working on some replies to you, BAA and others. I will post soon.

 

But neither your brother nor you are Jews or Messianic Jews, Ironhorse.  You are both Gentiles. 

And Paul (the apostle to the Gentiles) asks the Gentile church of Galatia if they received the Holy Spirit by going back to the Old Testament ways of the Jews.

~ bornagainathiest

 

Did you not read the Messianic Jewish site I posted on this subject?

 

And did you not read what I wrote about you not being either a Jew or a Messianic Jew?

 

You, a Gentile Christian, posted an exclusively Jewish interpretation of Genesis 12 : 3, in your OP.

 

Which, as Paul explains to the Galatians and Ephesians, is not the full and proper understanding that a Gentile Christian should either hold to or preach publicly.

 

Your way is the way of Christ, not the way of the nation of Israel.

 

That way is held to only by the Jews and they neither accept, believe in nor honor Jesus Christ. 

 

So, by publicly preaching Israel over Christ like this you are making the same kind of error as the churches of Ephesus and Galatia.

.

.

.

Posting a link to a Messianic Jewish site doesn't alter the fact that for 31 days you were publicly preaching this error.

 

Furthermore, if I hadn't prodded you into action with repeated requests for a reply and then finally a private message, you'd STILL BE publicly preaching this error.

 

And please don't respond by saying that you 'weren't preaching', Ironhorse.

 

You wrote and put this information out there, for all to read.

 

So, it's your responsibility.

 

 

.

.

.

You may not to be sleazy, false preacher ...but you do handle God's word irresponsibly, with carelessness and negligence.

 

Or would you care to dispute that, Ironhorse?

 

 

 

Ironhorse,

 

Would you care to dispute that you handle God's word irresponsibly, with carelessness and negligence?

[pratt]

 

 

Why would you ask Pastor Matthew? Was it because you asked jesus and never got an answer?

~ TheRedneckProfessor

 

You might see some sleazy false preachers on TV claiming to now hear the audible voice of God, but you should know I’m not one of them.

 

Brutal TRP, brutal biggrin.png

Ironhorse, my dear friend! You are back! Please see the other threads in the den and respond to BAA and myself.

Thanks

~ LF

 

Thanks, things have just been busy lately. I hope to spend more time here this week and onward. I am working on some replies to you, BAA and others. I will post soon.

 

But neither your brother nor you are Jews or Messianic Jews, Ironhorse.  You are both Gentiles. 

And Paul (the apostle to the Gentiles) asks the Gentile church of Galatia if they received the Holy Spirit by going back to the Old Testament ways of the Jews.

~ bornagainathiest

 

Did you not read the Messianic Jewish site I posted on this subject?

 

 

And did you not read what I wrote about you not being either a Jew or a Messianic Jew?

 

You, a Gentile Christian, posted an exclusively Jewish interpretation of Genesis 12 : 3, in your OP.

 

Which, as Paul explains to the Galatians and Ephesians, is not the full and proper understanding that a Gentile Christian should either hold to or preach publicly.

 

Your way is the way of Christ, not the way of the nation of Israel.

 

That way is held to only by the Jews and they neither accept, believe in nor honor Jesus Christ. 

 

So, by publicly preaching Israel over Christ like this you are making the same kind of error as the churches of Ephesus and Galatia.

.

.

.

Posting a link to a Messianic Jewish site doesn't alter the fact that for 31 days you were publicly preaching this error.

 

Furthermore, if I hadn't prodded you into action with repeated requests for a reply and then finally a private message, you'd STILL BE publicly preaching this error.

 

And please don't respond by saying that you 'weren't preaching', Ironhorse.

 

You wrote and put this information out there, for all to read.

 

So, it's your responsibility.

 

 

.

.

.

You may not to be sleazy, false preacher ...but you do handle God's word irresponsibly, with carelessness and negligence.

 

Or would you care to dispute that, Ironhorse?

 

 

Ironhorse,

 

Would you care to dispute that you handle God's word irresponsibly, with carelessness and negligence?

pastor matthew has yet to reply his email,,,

 

be patient

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

Why would you ask Pastor Matthew? Was it because you asked jesus and never got an answer?

~ TheRedneckProfessor

 

You might see some sleazy false preachers on TV claiming to now hear the audible voice of God, but you should know I’m not one of them.

 

Brutal TRP, brutal biggrin.png

Ironhorse, my dear friend! You are back! Please see the other threads in the den and respond to BAA and myself.

Thanks

~ LF

 

Thanks, things have just been busy lately. I hope to spend more time here this week and onward. I am working on some replies to you, BAA and others. I will post soon.

 

But neither your brother nor you are Jews or Messianic Jews, Ironhorse.  You are both Gentiles. 

And Paul (the apostle to the Gentiles) asks the Gentile church of Galatia if they received the Holy Spirit by going back to the Old Testament ways of the Jews.

~ bornagainathiest

 

Did you not read the Messianic Jewish site I posted on this subject?

 

And did you not read what I wrote about you not being either a Jew or a Messianic Jew?

 

You, a Gentile Christian, posted an exclusively Jewish interpretation of Genesis 12 : 3, in your OP.

 

Which, as Paul explains to the Galatians and Ephesians, is not the full and proper understanding that a Gentile Christian should either hold to or preach publicly.

 

Your way is the way of Christ, not the way of the nation of Israel.

 

That way is held to only by the Jews and they neither accept, believe in nor honor Jesus Christ. 

 

So, by publicly preaching Israel over Christ like this you are making the same kind of error as the churches of Ephesus and Galatia.

.

.

.

Posting a link to a Messianic Jewish site doesn't alter the fact that for 31 days you were publicly preaching this error.

 

Furthermore, if I hadn't prodded you into action with repeated requests for a reply and then finally a private message, you'd STILL BE publicly preaching this error.

 

And please don't respond by saying that you 'weren't preaching', Ironhorse.

 

You wrote and put this information out there, for all to read.

 

So, it's your responsibility.

 

 

.

.

.

You may not to be sleazy, false preacher ...but you do handle God's word irresponsibly, with carelessness and negligence.

 

Or would you care to dispute that, Ironhorse?

 

 

Ironhorse,

 

Would you care to dispute that you handle God's word irresponsibly, with carelessness and negligence?

pastor matthew has yet to reply his email,,,

 

be patient

 

 

No problem, Pratt.

 

I'm following Andy Dufresne's example.

[ironhorse]

 

 

 

A thread on all things Israel.

 

 

I thought I would start with this promised blessing from Genesis 12:

 

‘’…and all peoples on earth

will be blessed through you.”

 

I think we can agree that the world has benefited and been enriched by the Jewish peoples contributions and achievements in literature, music, technology, science, and medicine.

 

According to Pastor Matthew of the Grace Valley Christian Center this blessing refers specifically to the spiritual blessing Jesus Christ would bring to the whole world.

 

Not to any of the secular, cultural or scientific benefits the nation of Israel would bring to the whole world.

 

http://www.gracevalley.org/sermon/gods-plan-to-bless-all-the-families-of-the-earth/

 

Looks like you're trying to make scripture say something that it wasn't meant to!

 

 

 

 

I emailed Pastor Matthew and asked him did he mean only the spiritual blessings or could this also include the other contributions made by the Jewish people. So far, he has not replied.

 

It has been my understanding, from what I have read and heard from others, that this blessing has a double meaning. Yes, Christ is the ultimate blessing to the world, but it also a prophecy on how the Jews as a people will bless the world.

 

I called my brother who is pastor and he replied that obviously when one looks at the many contributions made, the passage in Genesis 12 does refer to both. This view is not unorthodox.

 

This view from a Messianic Jew site:

http://ffoz.org/discover/life-in-israel/a-blessing-to-the-nations.html

 

 

But neither your brother nor you are Jews or Messianic Jews, Ironhorse.  You are both Gentiles.  

 

And Paul (the apostle to the Gentiles) asks the Gentile church of Galatia if they received the Holy Spirit by going back to the Old Testament ways of the Jews.

 

Galatians 3 : 1 - 6.

 

You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 

2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law,or by believing what you heard? 

3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 

4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain?

5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 

6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

 

You are going back further than the Law and when you started this thread you read God's promise to Abram as if it only meant the nation of Israel.

 

Which as Paul explains, is something only the Jews do.  

 

So why are you (a Gentile) reading Genesis 12 : 3 from an exclusively Jewish viewpoint?  

 

And Yes, that's exactly what you did do.

.

.

.

Posted 02 November 2016 - 10:54 AM 

A thread on all things Israel.

 

I thought I would start with this promised blessing from Genesis 12:

 

‘’…and all peoples on earth

will be blessed through you.”

 

I think we can agree that the world has benefited and been enriched by the Jewish peoples contributions and achievements in literature, music, technology, science, and medicine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

BAA,

What does me being a Gentile have to do in understanding “the blessings” promised in Genesis 12? 

In Galatians 3 Paul was pointing out the error of going back to the Law to seek righteousness. As Paul points out, this was achieved by Christ’s crucifixion.

As I have stated before, this view of Genesis 12 is held many, both Jewish and Gentile believers.

While doing a search on “How the Jews Blessed the world” I found another good commentary on Genesis 12.

 

 

https://graceuniversity.edu/iip/2013/06/13-06-01-1/

~ Dr. Jim Eckman:

When God made his unconditional covenant with Abraham (see Genesis 12, 15, 17, etc.), He said that “in you all the nations will be blessed.”  One of the Lord’s expectations was that His people, Israel, would be a channel of blessing for all of humanity.  They would represent Him to the world.  The Apostle Paul picks up on that theme in the book of Galatians when he argues that one of the key blessings God had in mind was the blessing of justification by faith, which came through Jesus.  Wherever Jewish people have gone, they have been a channel of blessing for broader humanity.

 

Consider these statistics.  There are about 18 million Jews worldwide—0.2% of the world’s population.  But Jews make up 54% of the world chess champions, 27% of the Nobel physics laureates and 31% of the medicine laureates.  Within the United States, Jews make up but 2% of the US population, but 21% of the Ivy League student bodies, 26% of the Kennedy Center honorees, 37% of the Academy Award-winning directors, 38% of those on a recent Business Week list of philanthropists, and 51% of the Pulitzer Prize winners for nonfiction.

 

Tel Aviv has become one of the world’s foremost entrepreneurial centers—a new silicon valley in fact.  For example, Intel is the largest private-sector employer in Israel, with more than 8,000 employees, four design centers and two manufacturing plants.  The Israelis who manage the R&D centers are responsible for much of the microprocessor innovation over the past 20 years, developing chips for large desktop computers, laptops, tablets and smartphones.  Columnist David Brooks writes that “Israel has more high-tech start-ups per capita than any other nation on earth, by far.  It leads the world in civilian research-and-development spending per capita.  It ranks second behind the US in the number of companies listed on the NASDAQ.

 

The Jewish people are indeed a miracle.  The Jewish people have suffered phenomenal persecution over the last 4,000 years and yet it has not caused their extermination or annihilation.  They have endured, as God said they would.  They are now coming back to their land and are indeed blessing all nations.  The fundamental blessing of course has come through Jesus, the Messiah; the blessing of justification by faith is available to all.  In Romans 11:25-26, the Apostle Paul declared that when the “fullness of the Gentiles has come in . . .  all of Israel will be saved.”  The argument Paul is clearly making in all of Romans 9-11 is that we Gentiles should be thankful to God for the Jewish people because blessing has come through them, principally of course in the Lord Jesus.  And, because of God’s grace, we Gentiles by faith are grafted into “the olive tree of blessing”—God’s covenant promises.  God is not finished with the Jewish people.  His plan and His redemptive purposes for them will be accomplished.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

 

A thread on all things Israel.

 

 

I thought I would start with this promised blessing from Genesis 12:

 

‘’…and all peoples on earth

will be blessed through you.”

 

I think we can agree that the world has benefited and been enriched by the Jewish peoples contributions and achievements in literature, music, technology, science, and medicine.

 

According to Pastor Matthew of the Grace Valley Christian Center this blessing refers specifically to the spiritual blessing Jesus Christ would bring to the whole world.

 

Not to any of the secular, cultural or scientific benefits the nation of Israel would bring to the whole world.

 

http://www.gracevalley.org/sermon/gods-plan-to-bless-all-the-families-of-the-earth/

 

Looks like you're trying to make scripture say something that it wasn't meant to!

 

 

 

 

I emailed Pastor Matthew and asked him did he mean only the spiritual blessings or could this also include the other contributions made by the Jewish people. So far, he has not replied.

 

It has been my understanding, from what I have read and heard from others, that this blessing has a double meaning. Yes, Christ is the ultimate blessing to the world, but it also a prophecy on how the Jews as a people will bless the world.

 

I called my brother who is pastor and he replied that obviously when one looks at the many contributions made, the passage in Genesis 12 does refer to both. This view is not unorthodox.

 

This view from a Messianic Jew site:

http://ffoz.org/discover/life-in-israel/a-blessing-to-the-nations.html

 

 

But neither your brother nor you are Jews or Messianic Jews, Ironhorse.  You are both Gentiles.  

 

And Paul (the apostle to the Gentiles) asks the Gentile church of Galatia if they received the Holy Spirit by going back to the Old Testament ways of the Jews.

 

Galatians 3 : 1 - 6.

 

You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 

2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law,or by believing what you heard? 

3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 

4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain?

5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 

6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

 

You are going back further than the Law and when you started this thread you read God's promise to Abram as if it only meant the nation of Israel.

 

Which as Paul explains, is something only the Jews do.  

 

So why are you (a Gentile) reading Genesis 12 : 3 from an exclusively Jewish viewpoint?  

 

And Yes, that's exactly what you did do.

.

.

.

Posted 02 November 2016 - 10:54 AM 

A thread on all things Israel.

 

I thought I would start with this promised blessing from Genesis 12:

 

‘’…and all peoples on earth

will be blessed through you.”

 

I think we can agree that the world has benefited and been enriched by the Jewish peoples contributions and achievements in literature, music, technology, science, and medicine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

BAA,

What does me being a Gentile have to do in understanding “the blessings” promised in Genesis 12? 

 

I explained this to you in the private message that I sent.  A message that Duderonomy carefully checked and had no trouble understanding.  

 

In Galatians 3 Paul was pointing out the error of going back to the Law to seek righteousness. As Paul points out, this was achieved by Christ’s crucifixion.

 

If you refer back to the pm I sent you, I explained that your error is of the same kind as the one being made by them - but not exactly the same one.  

Do not confuse an error about the Law with an error about the promises made to Abram.  

Again, Duderonomy had no problem seeing this.

 

As I have stated before, this view of Genesis 12 is held many, both Jewish and Gentile believers.

 

Please re-read my pm to you and you will see what I am saying.  I said it clearly and lucidly and Duderonomy had no problem following my line of argument.

 

Since you are slow to understand, maybe you would like the Dude to explain where and how you are in error?

 

Anyway, here is what I sent to you.

 

 

Genesis 12 : 1 - 3

 

1 The Lord had said to Abram, "Go from your country, your people and your father's household to the land I will show you.

 

2 "I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.

 

3  I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

 

When Abram heard these words, what he didn't know at that time was that he actually hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ, announced by God, thousands of years in advance of the birth of the Messiah.  Nor could he have known that, 'all nations will be blessed through you'  was a Gospel announcement about Jesus Christ being a blessing to all nations.  At this time there were no Jews and the nation of Israel did not yet exist.  On that day they only existed as promises given to Abram by God.  And this is the very understanding all Jews have taken from this passage of scripture since then.  That God fulfilled his promises to Abram, by making him the founding father of the Israelite people.  

 

This exclusively patriarchal understanding of God's promise is not the full story, however.  

Nor is it the understanding that Christians should hold to.  A new, better and complete understanding was revealed by God to the apostle Paul.  One that supersedes the original and incomplete understanding held by the Jews.  It is this new understanding of what God meant in His promises to Abram that I will now explain.  

 

So, how do we know that Genesis 12 : 3 refers to Jesus Christ and not to Abram (Abraham) or Israel?  We know because Paul explained it to the church of the Galatians. 

 

 

Galatians 3 : 7 - 9

 

 7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham.

 

8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”

 

9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

 

 

Paul then went further, explaining that these promises referred not to the whole nation of Israel, but to one specific descendant of Abraham - Jesus Christ.

 

 

Galatians 3 : 15 & 16

 

15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 

 

16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.

 

 

So, God's promises were made to Abraham and his seed (Jesus Christ) and not to Abraham and his seeds (Israel).  

Abraham couldn't have known the full scope of the promise that God made to him on that day.  At that time he would have concluded that God was promising to make him the father of a great nation.  He would not have concluded one of his descendants would actually... BE ...God Himself, incarnated in the flesh of a mortal man.  The humble son of a carpenter.  Such knowledge was not only beyond Abraham's imagination but this information was deliberately withheld from him and from the Jewish nation until God was ready to announce it to the world.  Paul explained this to the Ephesian church, like this...

 

 

Ephesians 3 : 2 - 11.

 

2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you,

3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly.

4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,

5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets.

6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power.

8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ,

9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.

10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

The mystery of Christ that was not made known to Abraham or any other generation of the Jewish people was this.

Their God (as Jesus Christ) would become a blessing to all nations.  So the promise given in Genesis 12 : 3 refers not to the nation of Israel blessing the Gentiles, but to God Himself (as Jesus) blessing both to the Jews of Israel and the Gentiles with salvation.   The full magnitude of God's promise was necessarily hidden from Abraham and the Jews, because their hearts and minds were not ready to accept this message.  The message that God's love extends not only to His Chosen People, but also to the entire world.  This refusal to accept the salvation of the Gentiles has been stumbling block for the Jews since God first appointed Paul as His apostle to the Gentiles. 

 

Time and again in his letters to the early churches Paul reminds, corrects and disciplines his fellow Christians regarding which gospel is the truth.

He warns them that any other gospel than that of Jesus Christ is no gospel at all and that anyone preaching such a gospel is under God's curse.

 

Galatians 1 : 6 - 9

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel

7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

 

So, when the Gentile Christian Ironhorse concludes that the words, 'and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you' refers to the nation of Israel and not to Jesus Christ, he is making a grave error.

Since he is both a Christian of the New Covenant of the blood of Jesus Christ and a Gentile, he should agree with the words of Paul, God's appointed apostle to the Gentiles.  If Ironhorse were a Jew, then he could be forgiven for reading and interpreting Genesis 12 : 3 in purely patriarchal, Old Testament terms.  For thinking that God's promises refer only to the nation of Israel.

 

But since Ironhorse is a Gentile and not a Jew, he should read and interpret the book of Genesis as a Gentile Christian and not as a Jew.

In his letters Paul strongly reminded, reprimanded and disciplined  the early Gentile churches for their readiness to abandon the new covenant of Grace by going back to the old Jewish covenant of the Law.   In a similar way, Ironhorse has abandoned his Christ-centered, gospel understanding of Genesis 12 for a patriarchal, Jewish, Israel-centered one - in clear contradiction to Paul's revealed understanding from God.  I therefore strongly advise Ironhorse to admit his error, to withdraw his false conclusion and to bring his understanding into line with that of Paul's.  If he fails to do so then he will be preaching a gospel other than that of Jesus Christ and he will be putting himself under God's curse.  

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[sdelsolray]

Perhaps TinPony wants to convert to Judaism.  That is a possibility.