Intellectual Knowledge vs. Spiritual Knowledge

[Guest end3]

Without debating the scientific method, I personally get a different feeling from gaining intellectual knowledge vs Spiritual knowledge.  I might get the same feeling if the intellectual gain was related to the Spiritual.

Thoughts?

 

[florduh]

Spiritual revelation or understanding is not actual knowledge. If one could have irrefutable "knowledge" about the unseen, undetectable realm, there would be a large consensus rather than hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of widely differing views on such matters.

If you think spiritual matters are by definition of the absolute utmost importance, you will feel a deep satisfaction if you convince yourself you've figured out or discovered one of the deep secrets hidden from mortal man. Understanding astrophysics pales in comparison.

[LogicalFallacy]

Hi End

Can you define what you mean by "intellectual knowledge" and "spiritual knowledge"?

Off the bat, without understanding exactly what you mean by those terms, I'd say the feeling is different because one is more emotionally based (Spiritual)

However, I have had greater positive emotions when listening to music I like (secular) and contemplating the wonders of the universe than I have contemplating God and all that goes with it. The major feeling I associate with God and spiritual matters is fear so... not sure if we are talking about the same thing?

 

 

[sdelsolray]

Yeah, consensus definitions of "intellectual knowledge" and "spiritual knowledge" should be the first order of business.

[Guest end3]

I think Florduh hit on it when he said "deep satisfaction"...maybe calmness.  Let's start there please.  Suppose it's a revelation, as Florduh says, a connection or understanding newly revealed to further understanding or the knowledge base as opposed to the same when adding the concept of multiplication to the knowledge base of addition.

So, does our body convince ourselves and triggers the satisfaction/joy emotion?  And why?  Or is it a "Spiritual" connection of some sort?  I know that I don't have the same feeling when I learn about some new physical mechanism. 

 

 

 

[bornagainathiest]

4 hours ago, end3 said:

I think Florduh hit on it when he said "deep satisfaction"...maybe calmness.  Let's start there please.  Suppose it's a revelation, as Florduh says, a connection or understanding newly revealed to further understanding or the knowledge base as opposed to the same when adding the concept of multiplication to the knowledge base of addition.

So, does our body convince ourselves and triggers the satisfaction/joy emotion?  And why?  Or is it a "Spiritual" connection of some sort?  I know that I don't have the same feeling when I learn about some new physical mechanism. 

 

 

Your description of the effect of spiritual knowledge on you sounds deeply subjective and true only for you, End. 

Whereas intellectual knowledge (e.g., the name of the capital of Germany) is quite different, being objectively true for all.  

Also, if our own bodies are the triggers for this effect, then the mechanism would seem to be purely physical.

The claim that there is a spiritual (i.e., non-physical) component at work here shouldn't be taken as read.

Where's the objective evidence to support this claim?

If the only evidence is your feelings and emotions - that's subjective and doesn't qualify as objective evidence.

Objective evidence for the spiritual please.

Thanks,

BAA.

 

[florduh]

Emotions are powerful motivators. Love is an emotion, and most people have first hand knowledge of how exhilarating and fulfilling that emotion can be. But love isn't a "thing" floating around out there somewhere; it is a chemical reaction triggered by one's experience. It is the same with all things perceived as spiritual knowledge.

[Guest end3]

Thanks, I gather that the emotions are physical/chemical reactions and I acknowledge your point as well BAA.  My thoughts are, and we have mentioned subjectivity.....could these feelings/emotions be correlated with "spiritual" experiences to some level of certainty via brain study.  Perhaps there are studies out there already...  Would appreciate the share if anyone knows.

 

Edit:  Found one study that said spiritual/religious people had a thicker cerebral cortex. 

[bornagainathiest]

1 hour ago, end3 said:

Thanks, I gather that the emotions are physical/chemical reactions and I acknowledge your point as well BAA.  My thoughts are, and we have mentioned subjectivity.....could these feelings/emotions be correlated with "spiritual" experiences to some level of certainty via brain study.  Perhaps there are studies out there already...  Would appreciate the share if anyone knows.

Edit:  Found one study that said spiritual/religious people had a thicker cerebral cortex. 

 

Quote

That's a good start, End.  Looking around for evidence, rather than going with feelings or emotions.  What goes on in your head is subjective, personal and closed off to us.  You can't share these things directly with us.  But if you do find something more objective, like a study or a collection of case histories, then you can share that information with us.

A word of caution tho'.  

Please note that this...  Found one study that said spiritual/religious people had a thicker cerebral cortex ...appears to be a correlation.   In this thread, with just the scant information you've given us, we cannot possibly conclude that the thickness of a person's cerebral cortex is the cause of their spirituality.   I know that you're eager to find physical causes to support your beliefs, but you really need to be absolutely firm with yourself and not leap (via faith) to any premature conclusions.  

One step at a time.

 

 

[Guest end3]

Thanks, I will share the links in the future so I don't misrepresent. 

[sdelsolray]

3 hours ago, end3 said:

...

My thoughts are, and we have mentioned subjectivity.....could these feelings/emotions be correlated with "spiritual" experiences to some level of certainty via brain study.  Perhaps there are studies out there already... 

Perhaps the "feelings/emotions" are the "spiritual experiences", or could be defined that way.

Again, without consensus on definitions of "intellectual knowledge" and "spiritual knowledge", the discussion is apt to disintegrate. 

[L.B.]

Intellectual knowledge = Snakes do not talk and never have. There is zero biological or other evidence to the contrary. I can learn not to touch a cactus via practical, demonstrable experience, either my own, or the testimony of someone real who has gone through the pain.

 

Spiritual knowledge = Things I glean from the stories I read about talking snakes. I learn not to disobey an invisible patriarchal sky deity by reading stories about impossible things and believing wholeheartedly in the factual validity (and historical reality) of those stories.

 

"Spiritual knowledge" would be fine if I wasn't expected to literally believe in the existence of said snake, but somehow, "spiritual knowledge", especially for the fundy crowd, always seems to center on believing things that are demonstrably impossible in order to legitimize the meaning of the stories. They do this by claiming "personal experience" or "inner witness" that these things are true, which is subjective and unverifiable.

 

Intellectual (rational/reasonable, cognitive, analytical) knowledge is what we have in the real world. It is based on reason and is repeatedly demonstrable with nearly constant results.

"Spiritual" (intangible, meaning you cannot follow it on a tangent - a line) knowledge is fine if it is something personal and subjective, like "this piece of music moves me" or "the STELLA!!! thing in Citizen Kane is so powerful".

 

So-called spiritual "knowledge" that is gained from ascribing impossible (and often abhorrent) acts to invisible men, and learning how to see others through the lens of unbelievable fairy-tales, is useless and dangerous.

 

What end3 wants is to try to find a way to believe in both reasonable, demonstrable things AND in the absolute authority of a spook who commands Bronze-Age men to build boats in the desert and fill them with animals that tribesman could not have even conceived of.

 

I am going to throw this in the pot and then (likely) bow out: there is no way to accept that science and reason can teach us facts AND invisible men can teach us GREATER things that cannot themselves be proven or even demonstrated.

 

When end3 and his friends can show PROOF that the Flood happened, that a man bodily resurrected and is now alive in some sky-land, when they can PROVE that there is a demonstrable difference in any way between "believers" and the rest of us, then he can talk about the deep satisfaction he feels in knowing that his god couldn't give a tribe a military victory because iron chariots.