Spare the Rod, Spare the Child

[jrmarlin]

Is that what you want to happen to you? Do you want your son to kill you? Do you want him to have thoughts of killing you and your wife? If you do, then keep it up. Children eventually grow up -- and then the same parents that were their tyranny, become the child's victim.

As a child, I remember having some thoughts of vengeance toward my dad. It was bad enough that the "gears" in my head were spinning rather regularly on the subject.

 

But I never did anything.

 

I do remember my last beating though. I emotionlessly looked directly into his eyes while he was hitting me. He stopped, walked away and didn't talk to me for about a week.

 

I think that I gave him something to think about in doing that. He never hit me again from then on.

Fweethawt, it sounds like you psyched him out. You made him back down by using your full, non-violent energy to warn him that if he continued some serious harm would come to him. He was probably afraid of you after that because you had so much courage as to look at him directly and "throw your chi" at him, as they say in martial arts. Very impressive. I am glad that ceased that behavior. You did great and I bet you felt great when you realized that was the end of the torture. You rock. Don't ever forget it!

 

It's like the police song: "I will turn your face to alabaster, when you find your servant is your master..."

[Open_Minded]

...These aren't happy stories, Chris. If you continue, your child's story won't be happy either. I have very little/controled contact with my family. I have no children because of the abuse.

 

If you're capable of empathy, Chris, look real hard at your son. Ask yourself this one question, "What will my son be telling me when he's 38 years old?" Will you be able to live with his story?

 

-----------------

 

I do remember my last beating though. I emotionlessly looked directly into his eyes while he was hitting me. He stopped, walked away and didn't talk to me for about a week.

 

I think that I gave him something to think about in doing that. He never hit me again from then on.

 

Seabiscuit and Fweethawt ..... thank you both for sharing such personal stories.

 

As I said in earlier posts, Chris, there are folks here who know what it is like to endure what you endured as a child. They can help you move beyond the violence of your childhood. They can help you become the father you WANT to be in your heart - instead of the abuser you hate. But you have to be honest - that is the one requirement. All the advice and support in the world will not protect you from your past or the future - if you cannot be honest.

 

Violence is a horrible thing to endure and your silence is speaking volumes. To be frank - your actions are reflective of something called denial.

 

What is it that you are afraid to talk about, Chris? What violence did you endure as a child? What happened to lead up to the following moment in YOUR life?

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&s...ndpost&p=152002

 

Once I was so mad at my mom, I took her face and pressed my thumb into her eye socket. It began with a hateful thought and that thought wanted blood! God considers hate to be on the same level as murder! When I read in the OT that I should have been stoned it sent chills down my spine. Still does. If that Law still applies grace is magnified. Why would God save such a wretch like me???

 

See the thing is - that the moment you describe above is NOT NORMAL. This is not something that happens in the average home Chris. Parents may - at times - discipline a child. But what you describe above is NOT normal. Discipline does not lead to moments like you described.

 

My mother slapped my face when I mouthed off to her. But ... she NEVER abused me. There is a difference. My father - very occasionally (as in I can count on one hand the number of times it happened) spanked us children. Never - violently. This is discipline. And Chris ... the difference between discipline and abuse - is that abuse is violent, consistent (day in - day out). Abuse is a way of life - discipline is something that is occasional and NEVER crosses a line into violence.

 

What kind of abuse was going on in your life - that it crossed the line into the violence you described above, Chris?

 

See, the easy thing to do here, Chris, is to live in denial. But, denial is not a healthy (or loving) response to violence and abuse. Denial leads to more abuse. Instead of being the abused (the victim) becomes the abuser (the hated). We are all trying to point out what you want so much to deny. In your heart - YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ENDURED WAS ABUSE. Live up to what you KNOW Chris, you deserve a life free of the abuse and your SON should NEVER have to know it.

 

Now - your son is little. There is still time to end the cycle BEFORE YOU BECOME WHAT YOU HATE. But, you have to first admit there is a problem. PM a mod and ask that this topic be moved to a safer location - ask them to set parameters on the discussion so you feel safe. It's the first step to healing - to never having your son look at you the way you look at your abuser.

[Taphophilia]

He was on yet again today at 4:58 pm without a post in this thread.

 

Taph

[jrmarlin]

He was on yet again today at 4:58 pm without a post in this thread.

 

Taph

To be honest, I don't think anyone --- especially Mr. G. and O_M are very surprised that he didn't post here.

 

When backed into a corner -- most xians will evade and flee... They are good subject changers when the subject isn't going their way and they have no real rebuttal.

 

I am not surprised at all.. I would lay ten to one, he doesn't have the balls to come in here to even read these posts under his screen handle. Like I've said before, I wouldn't be surprised if he came on and read it under Anonymous or Guest handle. Such a dickless whimp.

[Lycorth]

Very true - I am also not surprised, as time and again I've responded to his words, asked for proofs and explanations, even demanded his public response, and still he evades me. He's only managed to scrape together a few Jedi mind tricks to try and use on me, like a last-ditch attempt. When he doesn't have easy answers, he just ignores the questions. He knows there aren't any answers for the questions I or others ask, especially when we stipulate he has to provide real evidence, not Babble verses or Xian propaganda, all of which we know.

 

No surprise here - none at all.

[Open_Minded]

He was on yet again today at 4:58 pm without a post in this thread.

 

Taph

 

Thanks everyone ... for the scout out. And how right you all are.... Chris couldn't gather up the strength to come in here.

 

Chris .. my mother has a saying, "Denial is a good thing - AS LONG AS YOU KNOW YOU'RE DOING IT".

 

Chris your denial is dangerous - dangerous for you and your son. You denial is quite deep if you feel the need to address our concerns in another thread. That's OK - copy and paste works quite well.... see the following.

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&s...ndpost&p=154143

 

There seems to be much discussion about how I will treat my baby. Honestly, this is like shooting the messenger. It makes it clear to me that I am striking a nerve with the truth and gives me assurance to continue sharing the truth. I know that I am not attacking any of you, so I know it must be the truth that is troubling you!

 

 

I love Dominic *dearly.* Want to see him?

Dominic Elijah Emmanuel de Vidal

 

I want five more just like him!

 

 

Some of you probably had parents who shouted at you when you disobeyed, "YOU'RE A ROTTEN SINNER AND YOU WILL BURN IN HELL FOR DOING THAT!"

 

Let me state this very clearly: THAT IS A WRONG APPLICATION OF THE DOCTRINE OF INDWELLING SIN. Your parents will have to face God one day for how they treated you!

 

So would I, if I abused my son in this way. Knowing he's wicked at heart doesn't give me an excuse to be holier than him, as if I didn't disobey my parents!

 

(WHATEVER!! I once got so mad at mom I put my thumb on her eye and pressed hard. My hate was not satisfied with anything but blood!)

 

I will not be telling him how aweful he is when I get mad at him, telling him what a rotten sinner he is. That is the wrong application of the docrtrine of sin.

 

I will look for areas where he does well and praise him. I will constantly tell him how much I love him and live it out by giving him treats and gifts. I will serve him by sacrificing many hours on his behalf.

 

But when he disobeys I will remind him before I administer careful, thought-out, emotion-controlled discipline that he needs a savior just like daddy. It is when his disobedience is fresh in his eyes that he will be most aware of his moral depravity.

 

You've seen the destruction of parents who shout at their kids how rotten they are. And you've also seen the destroyed lives of children who run amuck. A godly parent drives right down the middle, neither tolerating sin nor ruling dictatorially with an iron fist but showering affection and lovingly discipling.

 

_______________

 

I love Dominic *dearly.*

 

I believe you love Dominic - that is why I feel there is hope for an honest heart-to-heart discussion here Chris. I believe you love Dominic enough to CHANGE FOR HIM. I really mean that.

 

(WHATEVER!! I once got so mad at mom I put my thumb on her eye and pressed hard. My hate was not satisfied with anything but blood!)

 

I'm not questioning your love for Dominic. I'm questioning a pattern of violence in your life Chris. This is NOT normal mother/son behavior. What led to this moment, Chris?

 

Do you love Dominic enough to CHANGE and protect him from ever having to endure this kind of violence?

[Ziggy]

I been following this thread just in case Chris replies (I won't hold my breadth for that!)

 

I would like to clarify something though... Are we talking only about actual physical abuse / violence or mental / phsycological?

I read the very personal stories on this thread to do with parent / child violence. I have kids and these stories are heart rending because as a kid you are defenseless and totally rely on your parents until you are old enough

 

But OM did you start the thread knowing Chris either suffered from or carries out this sort of stuff personally?

 

I thought the OP was also to with the phsycological issues attached with teaching your offspring that they are wicked in Gods eyes and so from day 1 of understanding they feel guilt a hit to their self esteem. Its clear physical violence can have major affects of anyone.. But can the physcology you use to bring up your kids be just as bad? I had NO physical violence experiences and do act that way to my kids. But I do feel I feel I suffered from evangelical teaching .. Hell, Belief damnation etc which at times felt like it would send me mad - i mean actually!

Also my father is a great guy... but just a bit distant. Not easy to talk to deeply. I am sure i could have done with a few heart to heart chats with him at key points in my life but he obviously did not need them for himself so presumed i didn't either. Not true in my case!

 

I can have a habit of changing a topics direction ... if this is the case here just bat it back at me. I'll maybe start a new thread as i think this is an important issue.

[Chris de Vidal]

Cool, I just noticed I have a pinned thread just for me!

 

It appears that PM is broken for me. I only noticed this thread today (sorry!). If you need to get in touch with me, Chris (AT) deVidal (DOT) tv.

 

I haven't read this thread yet but I will.

 

Thanks for your understanding!

[Open_Minded]

I been following this thread just in case Chris replies (I won't hold my breadth for that!)

 

I would like to clarify something though... Are we talking only about actual physical abuse / violence or mental / phsycological?

 

I read the very personal stories on this thread to do with parent / child violence. I have kids and these stories are heart rending because as a kid you are defenseless and totally rely on your parents until you are old enough.

 

But OM did you start the thread knowing Chris either suffered from or carries out this sort of stuff personally?

 

Robert ... thank you for asking. To be honest - I'm not quite sure. I truly wish Chris would come in here and address all of our concerns. I don't "KNOW" for certain. But, I am worried, his description of what happened with his mother frightens me. And I would like him to openly discuss it with people who have come out of an abusive background. They are in a better position than I am to spot abuse - as I've never personally dealt with it. I do think it is worth "calling him out". There are people on this board who are more qualified to help him with abuse issues - if he has experienced them. But, I can certainly call him out. That is the least I can do for his child.

 

I thought the OP was also to with the phsycological issues attached with teaching your offspring that they are wicked in Gods eyes and so from day 1 of understanding they feel guilt a hit to their self esteem. Its clear physical violence can have major affects of anyone.. But can the physcology you use to bring up your kids be just as bad? I had NO physical violence experiences and do act that way to my kids. But I do feel I feel I suffered from evangelical teaching .. Hell, Belief damnation etc which at times felt like it would send me mad - i mean actually!

 

I do think phsycological issues are part of this discussion and your point is very much a part of my concerns.

 

I can have a habit of changing a topics direction ... if this is the case here just bat it back at me. I'll maybe start a new thread as i think this is an important issue.

 

No, Robert, I think your points are very valid - and I would like to see Chris address them as well.

 

How about it Chris? There are many valid questions in this thread. There are also heart wrenching stories of abuse.

 

We would all like to hear you address our concerns.

 

-----

 

BTW: Chris I know these things are not easy to talk about, or admit. So, I am going to ask one thing of anyone who posts in this thread. Please post knowing that Chris needs to feel safe if he is going to be honest about these issues. That's all I ask... of any one posting here. Remember how difficult this all is to talk about - and treat any post by Chris with the respect you would give someone who is opening their heart to you.

 

Chris - as I've said before - if you want this moved to a safer location - just ask.

 

Thanks everyone.

 

In Peace:

 

Open_Minded

[Fweethawt]

Please post knowing that Chris needs to feel safe if he is going to be honest about these issues. That's all I ask... of any one posting here.

If he responds honestly, his "safety" is guaranteed.

 

If we hear, "Balaam's ass spoke, so therefore, the Bible is true and I must teach it all to my child regardless of the consequences!" well - he'll probably get blasted.

[Open_Minded]

Please post knowing that Chris needs to feel safe if he is going to be honest about these issues. That's all I ask... of any one posting here.

If he responds honestly, his "safety" is guaranteed.

 

If we hear, "Balaam's ass spoke, so therefore, the Bible is true and I must teach it all to my child regardless of the consequences!" well - he'll probably get blasted.

 

Fair enough - Chris - please put the Bible down and come into this discussion one human being to another. No reciting Bible verses - just simply be honest. That's all we're asking.

[jrmarlin]

Please post knowing that Chris needs to feel safe if he is going to be honest about these issues. That's all I ask... of any one posting here.

If he responds honestly, his "safety" is guaranteed.

 

If we hear, "Balaam's ass spoke, so therefore, the Bible is true and I must teach it all to my child regardless of the consequences!" well - he'll probably get blasted.

 

Fair enough - Chris - please put the Bible down and come into this discussion one human being to another. No reciting Bible verses - just simply be honest. That's all we're asking.

O_M, do not take this with any disrespect as it is in by no means meant to be that way...while I respect your passion and forthright aim to get Chris to see the errors of his "supposed" ways, if the guy doesn't want to talk, he is not going to talk. It is obvious you are very ambitious to speak with him. The moderator even pinned this catagory so it could not be missed. Your passion is amirable being that there is not true emotional currency between the two of you; however, like I just said, he is not going to talk if he is not inspired to speak to you.

 

He may be a coward. He may think he's met his match. Who knows? It's anyone's guess.

 

I hate to see you beat your head against the wall in regards to this guy but as you know, even if you two were to talk, he will probably offer up a plethora of biblical platitudes while skirting his "slip" regarding his son.

 

Don't worry. Everyone has been contributing here to keep this thread well high on even the most recently contributed list. There is no way he can miss it. In fact, he didn't; however, if you notice he has not come back to address the issues in this thread. That speaks volumes right there.

 

Apparently, he let everyone in on a part of his "world" that he probably never intended on any of us to see. Most child abusers don't like others to see their "ugly" side and go to great lengths to hide it from Joe Blow Public.

 

I understand what you're doing - really I do...and your care for his child is beyond reproach. But please, just relax. When or if it's ever time for you talk to Chris, you will. Just trust in the right timing. Cool?

[Open_Minded]

O_M, do not take this with any disrespect as it is in by no means meant to be that way...while I respect your passion and forthright aim to get Chris to see the errors of his "supposed" ways, if the guy doesn't want to talk, he is not going to talk. It is obvious you are very ambitious to speak with him. The moderator even pinned this catagory so it could not be missed. Your passion is amirable being that there is not true emotional currency between the two of you; however, like I just said, he is not going to talk if he is not inspired to speak to you.

 

<snip>

 

Don't worry. Everyone has been contributing here to keep this thread well high on even the most recently contributed list. There is no way he can miss it. In fact, he didn't; however, if you notice he has not come back to address the issues in this thread. That speaks volumes right there.

 

Apparently, he let everyone in on a part of his "world" that he probably never intended on any of us to see. Most child abusers don't like others to see their "ugly" side and go to great lengths to hide it from Joe Blow Public.

 

I understand what you're doing - really I do...and your care for his child is beyond reproach. But please, just relax. When or if it's ever time for you talk to Chris, you will. Just trust in the right timing. Cool?

 

Thank you for your concern, Jmarlin. I do appreciate it - and I understand what you are saying. Believe it, or not, I agree with you. Chris is the one who must decide to deal with this. ALL we can do is "call him out".

 

I've never labored under any illusions here. I know the odds. The odds are that Chris will not come in here and address the concerns we have. The odds are that - IF he endured child abuse (either emotional or physical) - that he will not be able to admit it to himself - let alone all of us. The odds are that - IF he endured child abuse (either emotional or physical) that he will repeat the pattern with his son - unless he gets help. I know all of that. And I agree with you, he will talk when he is ready.

 

All I ask is that if he does decide to join this thread that all of us recognize how very difficult it will be for him to talk from his heart, and respond accordingly. And all I ask from Chris, is honesty. Put down the Bible and speak from the depths of your heart.

 

Meanwhile - this thread can continue to serve. You are right - it has been pinned. And, the sad reality is that many people who feel they must leave Christianity have endured abuse. The heart wrenching stories others have told on this thread can serve a purpose for new comers. As long as the thread is pinned - the stories will be there for others who have endured abuse. And they will know they are not alone and that this is a place to heal. They can add their own stories - if they wish - and continue highlighting the damage emotional, religious and physical abuse can do to a soul.

 

And if Chris did nothing else here - he helped bring this dark and hidden side of the literalist Christian experience to the forefront. Not such a bad legacy.

[Chris de Vidal]

To the forum: I only recently became aware of this thread. If Open_Minded tried to PM me about it, I didn't see it because as I mentioned my PMs are broken. Plus I cannot spend lots of time reading the forums; I get to them when I can.

 

OM emailed me a few days ago with the essense of this post. She is concerned that I was abused and so I will abuse my boy (as you can see from her first post). I thought it was very kind of her to look out for me and my boy. Her kindness nearly brought a tear to my eye; "Thank God, someone out there is compassionate!"

 

 

My first reaction when I read your challenge was, "Hey OM: Have you taken my challenge? Then no, I won't take yours. Fair's fair." :-)

 

 

But I'll take your challenge.

 

 

Chris, when you were a boy, or a teen, or whenever ... and some adult was crushing your spirit with his/her words and actions.

 

No, actually, God's clear Word and personal experience made that point true.

 

God's clear Word: one cannot read the book of Job, Romans, or Galatians and come away with the impression that God is saying we are basically morally pure in heart. You have to do some huge mental handsprings to get any other idea.

Personal experience: I do not want to obey God's Law. I must fight to do it. Paul shares a similar testimony at the end of Romans 7.

 

 

And no, my parents were great. I've talked to OM about this offlist, I think she understands that now.

 

 

But - beyond that challenge - I am fed up with you coming to this board and acting as if you are morally superior because you read the Bible literally.

 

It should be abundantly clear that I DO NOT feel I am morally superior to anyone. I have sinned thousands of times. I would contend with Paul in 1 Timothy 1:15 for the title "foremost sinner."

 

I just want you all to come down to my level. True Christians call it "reality."

 

If someone were to only sin an incredible three times a day, in ten years that's 10,000 times. You would have me believe they are a good person?

 

Come to grips with reality: we all break God's Laws in spirit and deed hundreds of times a day!

 

 

[*]That it is wrong to beat children

 

So do I! When in ANGER. If you beat a child in anger you will answer to God.

 

 

[*]That it is wrong to convince children that they are worthless sinners - that they are wicked.

 

If you mean shout at them, "YOU'RE A ROTTEN SINNER AND YOU'RE GOING TO HELL FOR DISOBEYING ME" then yes, you are right. That's called "self-righteousness." It ignores the fact that the parent has disobeyed God and because they are angry they are disobeying God right that moment.

 

If you know parents who have done that, realize that God will judge them.

 

 

[*]That it is wrong to convince children that they are not lovable in my eyes - or in the eyes of God.

 

So do I! At this point you are attacking a "straw man" because I agree with you.

 

However, children can be lovable not because they have an inherent value in them. They can only be lovable because God chooses to place a value upon them.

 

Imagine you buy a vase at a yard sale for fifty cents. You let the kids put flowers in it and let it get dusty, whatever. But suddenly you see that vase in a catalog. You check the mark and it matches. Suddenly it is now worth $2000! That vase is only valuable because we place a value upon it.

 

Or imagine as a drug factory is shut down the news broadcaster announces that the street value of the drugs would be in the millions. If they gave me the keys to the factory, do you know what it'd be worth? Not a penny. That's because drugs have no inherent value.

 

People have no inherent value in them. God values them despite this, which is far greater than saying we have some measure of value that God adores.

 

Even though you do not read the Bible literally, I can't imagine these verses to be any clearer on this:

"For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die -- but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life." (Romans 5:6-8,10 ESV)

 

You have to do some serious mental gymnastics to get those verses to say something else.

 

 

[*]That it is wrong to go into someone elses home and tell them that they are wicked, worthless sinners and that they will fry in hell

 

So do I! Another straw man. "How 'bout a little fire, scarecrow?"

 

Imagine if a police officer busted into your house and said, "You're going to jail for a long time."

 

THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. You'd have the right to be angry.

 

But imagine instead if a police officer busted into your house and said, "We just found those 10,000 marajuana plants behind your house; you're going to jail for a long time."

 

NOW THAT MAKES SENSE.

 

 

If I were just to tell you, "You're a wicked, worthless sinner and you will fry in hell," THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. You'd have the right to be angry.

 

But instead if I told you, "If you've lied, stolen, lusted, hated, coveted, etc. you're a sinner. God's standard is perfection and all sin is against Him. You deserve hell." Now that finally makes some sense. Even if you don't believe the Bible or take it literally, at least I've finally given you a reason for the punishment.

 

 

 

You challenged me to agree with you because my heart knows these things are true. I mostly agree with your points. But I also can tell you don't understand my position and you are attacking a straw man.

 

One of the rules of debate is to represent your opponent in a way that he would agree with and then attack that. Please, Mrs. Open, don't burn straw men.

 

 

To clarify, OM, what I was getting at is God's Commandments are written on our heart in the form of a conscience. You know it is wrong to hate, steal, lust, covet, etc.

 

I DO NOT MEAN that we are literally informed of God's will and heart and mind in a way that is superior to and over and against what is clearly seen in God's written Word.

 

 

So no, we do not agree on this point.

 

 

Now, are you willing to take my challenge?

 

 

 

 

One thing that perhaps has not been coming through to you all is I LOVE MY SALVATION! God requires perfection, a perfection that I was not born with.

 

The COOL part is "For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." (2 Corinthians 5:21 ESV)

 

I am now considered perfect! Though I am far from perfect, God calls me perfect! I am "the righteousness of God."

 

I am pure! I am spotless! I obeyed all of God's Laws! I am considered holy!

 

Not because I am a good person, but because Jesus GAVE me His righteousness.

 

It is overwhelming for me to consider these verses:

"For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die -- but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life." (Romans 5:6-8,10 ESV)

 

Mmmmmm.

 

And now, because I am born again (as Jesus said in John 3:3) I am a new creation (as it says in 2 Corinthians 5:17). Because I am a new creation, I actually begin to desire to do good things. I actually desire to obey God's Law. Jesus is precious. I am growing in holiness.

 

When people like you insult me, though I desire to return hate for hate there is a stronger desire within me that resists my sin and instead blesses you and prays for your health and safety and salvation.

 

Rather than look upon women with lust, I am overcome with a desire to obey God. My verse is, "The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace..." (Romans 8:6 NIV) So by God's grace, I have been able to battle lust for four years now. Praise God!

 

When the world stops its bad habits it just transfers sin from one place to another. For example, when they stop smoking they start eating. But when the born-again stop sinning, we truly become righteous!

 

I CANNOT boast in any of this. I join Paul in boasting only in the cross, for it is the power to make a sinner righteous. Only by the cross does someone begin to actually look more and more like perfect Jesus.

 

AND IT IS GOOD.

 

I will never be perfect. And without being born again, I would remain wicked at heart. But because of a foreign righteousness and a transforming power, "those whom he justified he also glorified." (Romans 8:30 ESV)

 

 

 

My side of this discussion is over. She and I will continue this conversation offlist.

 

If I happen to read your replies and you've twisted my words so that I'm saying something I did not intend, I will assume it is because you are not seeking the truth.

[Taphophilia]

Chris,

 

One thing I noticed about this post and all the other posts is that you are not a real person. All you seem to do is come here and preach to us. (Please see avatar, thanks.)

It makes me wonder if you even know who Chris is and if you have lost who you are to your beliefs.

 

Taph

[Fweethawt]

I guess if one looks hard enough, they might be able to find a few specks of honesty in there. Somewhere!

 

Have a good life, Chris.

You only get one.

Enjoy your son.

[Checkmate]

Chris,

 

One thing I noticed about this post and all the other posts is that you are not a real person. All you seem to do is come here and preach to us. (Please see avatar, thanks.)

It makes me wonder if you even know who Chris is and if you have lost who you are to your beliefs.

 

Taph

Don't encourage him, Taph. He'll only start saying things like, "It is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me."

 

I'm sure that Chris would be pleased if we believed that we were seeing Christ and not Chris. Being a sock puppet for Jesus, with the Lord's hand shoved up you-know-where, would give Chris a huge woody.

[Open_Minded]

(Sigh) Chris ... It's late. I'm tired - it's past my bedtime. So my answers are going to be short and to the point.

 

And no, my parents were great. I've talked to OM about this offlist, I think she understands that now.

 

Well no, I'm not convinced that your parents did NOT abuse you. I'm convinced that you THINK they didn't abuse you.

 

Did they ever take a paddle to you, did they ever take a switch to you. How often did they tell you that you were "wicked at the heart"?

 

But - beyond that challenge - I am fed up with you coming to this board and acting as if you are morally superior because you read the Bible literally.

 

It should be

abundantly

clear that I DO NOT feel I am morally superior to anyone. I have sinned thousands of times. I would contend with Paul in 1 Timothy 1:15 for the title "foremost sinner."

 

One thing that perhaps has not been coming through to you all is I LOVE MY SALVATION! God requires perfection, a perfection that I was not born with.

 

The COOL part is "For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." (2 Corinthians 5:21 ESV)

 

I am now considered perfect! Though I am far from perfect, God calls me perfect! I am "the righteousness of God."

 

I am pure! I am spotless! I obeyed all of God's Laws! I am considered holy!

 

Not because I am a good person, but because Jesus GAVE me His righteousness.

 

It is overwhelming for me to consider these verses:

"For

while we were still weak

, at the right time

Christ died for the ungodly.

For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die -- but

God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

" "For if while we were

enemies

we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life." (Romans 5:6-8,10 ESV)

 

Man ... Chris ... you really don't know when to quit do you. (shaking head again)

 

And now, because I am born again (as Jesus said in John 3:3) I am a new creation (as it says in 2 Corinthians 5:17). Because I am a new creation, I actually begin to desire to do good things. I actually desire to obey God's Law. Jesus is precious. I am growing in holiness.

 

When people like you insult me, though I desire to return hate for hate there is a stronger desire within me that resists my sin and instead blesses you and prays for your health and safety and salvation.

 

Rather than look upon women with lust, I am overcome with a desire to obey God. My verse is, "The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace..." (Romans 8:6 NIV) So by God's grace, I have been able to battle lust for four years now. Praise God!

 

When the world stops its bad habits it just transfers sin from one place to another. For example, when they stop smoking they start eating. But when the born-again stop sinning, we truly become righteous!

 

I CANNOT boast in any of this. I join Paul in boasting only in the cross, for it is the power to make a sinner righteous. Only by the cross does someone begin to actually look more and more like perfect Jesus.

 

AND IT IS GOOD.

 

I will never be perfect. And without being born again, I would remain wicked at heart. But because of a foreign righteousness and a transforming power, "those whom he justified he also glorified." (Romans 8:30 ESV)

 

 

My side of this discussion is over. She and I will continue this conversation offlist.

 

We will continue this discussion off site ONLY if you are willing to put down the Bible Chris. Feel free to write me, I sincerely hope you do. That is why I am refraining here - because I have hope that you can go at our discussion from your heart, from your conscious.

 

(Sigh .. shaking head)

 

 

I just want you all to come down to my level. True Christians call it "reality."

 

And some would call it sick.

 

[*]That it is wrong to beat children

 

So do I! When in ANGER. If you beat a child

in anger

you will answer to God.

 

NOW CHRIS THIS IS THE BIG QUESTION: Do you feel it is wrong to switch to a child? Do you feel it is wrong to take a paddle to a child? EVER. I don't care if it is in anger, or not. I'm interested in knowing whether you feel it is EVER justified to take either a paddle, or a switch, to a child?

 

[*]That it is wrong to convince children that they are worthless sinners - that they are wicked.

 

If you mean shout at them, "YOU'RE A ROTTEN SINNER AND YOU'RE GOING TO HELL FOR DISOBEYING ME" then yes, you are right. That's called "self-righteousness." It ignores the fact that the parent has disobeyed God and because they are angry they are disobeying God right that moment.

 

Again - a big issue with me and everyone else on this board - I'm not just talking about yelling at children. I'm talking about consistently letting children know in subtle and straight out that they are worthless sinners and wicked. I don't care if it's said in the sweetest, gentlest voice - it's still wrong - Chris. And you know what? DEEP DOWN IN THE DEPTHS OF YOUR HEART YOU KNOW IT IS WRONG. IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW IT WAS WRONG - YOU WOULDN'T FEEL THE NEED TO SKIRT AROUND THE ISSUE WITH SELF-JUSTIFICATIONS.

 

Even though you do not read the Bible literally, I can't imagine these verses to be any clearer on this:

 

"For

while we were still weak

, at the right time

Christ died for the ungodly.

For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die -- but

God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

" "For if while we were

enemies

we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life." (Romans 5:6-8,10 ESV)

 

You have to do some

serious

mental gymnastics to get those verses to say something else.

 

Chris, Chris, Chris (shaking head now). I told you, I'm not getting into a dueling Bible verse session with you. It's pointless. The bible can be interpreted an infinite number of ways. Bait me all you want - I'm not going there.

 

However, I will step aside as others tear you to shreds. You came onto this board and all I asked you to do was put the Bible down. The others made it clear they would behave themselves as long as you spoke from your heart and didn't start quoting Bible verses. You've read the thread, you knew when you pulled those Bible verses out that you were baiting. I do want to continue correspondence with you off-line - so I'm going to be a good girl and leave your bait alone.

 

However as the thread author I here-by release all others from an obligation to restrain themselves. (It seems starting this thread in the Lion's Den was a correct decison after all ... I had been wondering) (Shaking head again)

 

If I were just to tell you, "You're a wicked, worthless sinner and you will fry in hell," THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. You'd have the right to be angry.

 

But instead if I told you, "If you've lied, stolen, lusted, hated, coveted, etc. you're a sinner. God's standard is

perfection

and all sin is against Him. You deserve hell." Now that finally makes some sense. Even if you don't believe the Bible or take it literally, at least I've finally given you a reason for the punishment.

 

Again ... all I asked Chris is that you behave yourself. The sad thing is, that I don't think you have a clue what you just said. And again - I must refrain - but I know others here are quite capable of taking you on..

 

To clarify, OM, what I was getting at is God's Commandments are written on our heart in the form of a conscience. You know it is wrong to hate, steal, lust, covet, etc.

 

We agree completely, Chris. You know it is wrong to use paddles and switches on your children. Your conscious knows this. You know in your heart that it is wrong to look at the beautiful little boy of yours and compare him to Hitler - your conscious tells you this. And since you feel so free to refer to our private conversations here - then I will repeat what I've said to you through email.

 

Don’t expect me to get into dueling Bible verses, Chris. In the end the Word of God can be manipulated. We are human and we are capable of making mistakes in our individual interpretations. So, let’s start with the one point we agree on – that which is written on our hearts. If you can not accept this as a foundation for our discussion – than as much as I fear for your son – our discussion will have to be over. You will be right – there would be nothing to discuss.

 

I truly do hope you continue this correspondence Chris. But, if you decide to write back, do it knowing that the Bible is off the table. The foundation for this discussion will be what we KNOW in our hearts. Pure and simple – nothing else.

 

To everyone else: Since Chris has referred to our private conversations I feel it is quite legitimate to give you the information you need to handle this situation. Chris plans to use "Sheparding a Child's Heart" by Tedd Tripp. as his guidebook to parenting. Now - since I've never been involved in literalism I was unaware of the author or book. So I did a quick look up - this is what I found.

 

http://christdot.org/modules.php?name=News...=5198&pid=64426

 

A few thoughts on this subject. I have 4 kids (and #5 is on the way) and we did not spank our first until he was at least 5. Unfortunately, we approached it with the wrong attitude, and it was extremely ineffective for us (created hostility, anger, resentment, stubbornness, etc.) so we stopped for a while. Then we read the books "Sheparding a Child's Heart" (SaCH) by Tedd Tripp and "To Train Up a Child" (TTUaC) by Michael & Debi Pearl. I highly recommend reading these two books together. SaCH approaches the necessity of biblical discipline from a high level (why to) view which was very frustrating until we found the "hands-on" (how to) aspect in TTUaC.

 

SaCH helped us understand first the nature of our own wrong approach to spanking (namely spanking in anger) and second the real reason for spanking (to address a wrong heart attitude) and TTUaC helped us to wrap biblical guidlines around when and how to spank. Namely, we now only spank for acts of deliberate disobedience. And we always use a lightweight paddle or switch (switches sting a lot more and are not likely to cause bruises which well-intentioned outsiders could easily misinterpret as abuse). It is absolutely critical that you not put off a necessary spanking (should you choose to spank, that is) until the offenses accumulate and your anger peaks. If you hear yourself saying something like "All right, that's it, I've had enough..." then you've let it go too far and are more likely to release your anger through the paddle. The final critical ingredient for us is to discuss why the child's actions were wrong and then pray with them. ….

 

Chris .. do feel free to write me IF you can put the Bible down. I do hope you are able to do so ... I really do, for the sake of Dominic I hope you do. YOU KNOW IN YOUR HEART THAT USING SWITCHES AND PADDLES IS WRONG. YOU KNOW IN YOUR HEART THAT TWISTING THAT BOYS MIND IS WRONG. Go with your heart, your conscious Chris.

 

Everyone else... I am now stepping aside and bowing out.

 

 

 

................

 

PS... Fwee and Mr. Grinch have at him (and anyone else) maybe your approach will be more affective than mine. Chris.. I'm still willing to talk - you and me - no Bible.

[Fweethawt]

PS... Fwee and Mr. Grinch have at him

Hmph! I thought my last post made it pretty clear that I was done typing to him.

[Rosa Mystica]

NOW CHRIS THIS IS THE BIG QUESTION: Do you feel it is wrong to switch to a child? Do you feel it is wrong to take a paddle to a child? EVER. I don't care if it is in anger, or not. I'm interested in knowing whether you feel it is EVER justified to take either a paddle, or a switch, to a child?

 

I was wondering this too, O_M. From the sounds of it, it seems like he *would* approve of such punishments under certain circumstances (unless he wishes to prove me wrong).

 

To Chris: Did you know that I was abused in childhood? I was. Physically and emotionally. And on occasion, spiritually. I recall one occasion where my mother made me pray for "forgiveness" after my father had decided to beat the crap out of me and my sister (sickening!). I also grew up hearing slams against all non-Catholic religions (also deplorable).

 

Do you want to know what happened to me, Chris? I became mentally ill. To this day, I suffer from clinical anxiety and depression (have been for quite a few years now). I also developed a massive shame complex, and lost a lot of self-esteem. I continually struggle with self-loathing issues.

 

Now, I have nothing against you raising your child Christian, if that's what you feel is right. But what is the deal with thinking of him as a wicked person at the tender age of four months?! Do you want your son to despise himself? To think that he is inherently evil? The thought just saddens me beyond belief.

 

Please Chris, do not "demonize" your child. I'm sure you *do* love him, and that you wants what's best for him. And if you plan to use harsh physical punishment, then I BEG you to reconsider. He sounds like a precious boy. He deserves to be acknowledged as such.

 

And my friend, you need help. Serious mental help. I've never met a Christian who's thought along the lines you do (even conservative ones). And read my current siggy. I've seen many preachy Christians come onto message boards with the intention of evangelizing others, and guess what usually happens? They deconvert themselves. And I know from experience how painful that is. If you don't want to lose your faith, then I suggest you abandon this "quest" of yours. Reconversions almost *never* occur due to tactics like yours.

 

That is all I have to say.

 

Rosa

[Asimov]

I just want you all to come down to my level. True Christians call it "reality."

 

What's your level? Retarded?

 

If someone were to only sin an incredible three times a day, in ten years that's 10,000 times. You would have me believe they are a good person?

 

Depends.

 

Come to grips with reality: we all break God's Laws in spirit and deed hundreds of times a day!

 

Well God doesn't exist so you can shove it up your ass.

 

So do I! When in ANGER. If you beat a child in anger you will answer to God.

 

Ah right...."I BEAT YOU CUZ I LOVE!!!"

 

If you mean shout at them, "YOU'RE A ROTTEN SINNER AND YOU'RE GOING TO HELL FOR DISOBEYING ME" then yes, you are right. That's called "self-righteousness." It ignores the fact that the parent has disobeyed God and because they are angry they are disobeying God right that moment.

 

Now who's doing the straw-man dance? You totally took what she said and shifted it to something out of context.

 

However, children can be lovable not because they have an inherent value in them. They can only be lovable because God chooses to place a value upon them.

 

Nothing has inherent value, not even God, if he were to exist.

 

People have no inherent value in them. God values them despite this, which is far greater than saying we have some measure of value that God adores.

 

That is an entirely meaningless thing to say.

 

So do I! Another straw man. "How 'bout a little fire, scarecrow?"

 

Imagine if a police officer busted into your house and said, "You're going to jail for a long time."

 

THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. You'd have the right to be angry.

 

But imagine instead if a police officer busted into your house and said, "We just found those 10,000 marajuana plants behind your house; you're going to jail for a long time."

 

NOW THAT MAKES SENSE.

 

No it doesn't, your analogy is retarded.

But instead if I told you, "If you've lied, stolen, lusted, hated, coveted, etc. you're a sinner. God's standard is perfection and all sin is against Him. You deserve hell." Now that finally makes some sense. Even if you don't believe the Bible or take it literally, at least I've finally given you a reason for the punishment.

 

No you haven't. You're an absolute moron and your debates would only be useful to someone who actually believes what you believe....since we don't, your shit is irrelevant.

[Fweethawt]

If someone were to only sin an incredible three times a day, in ten years that's 10,000 times. You would have me believe they are a good person?

 

Depends.

I can't believe you let him slide on his Biblical Math™ thing that he's got goin' on there.

[Asimov]

If someone were to only sin an incredible three times a day, in ten years that's 10,000 times. You would have me believe they are a good person?

 

Depends.

I can't believe you let him slide on his Biblical Math™ thing that he's got goin' on there.

 

He's arguing about sinning as if we really care about his religious taboos. If he's going to talk about good people, then he has to do so from our perspective, not his.

[Fweethawt]

Dang, that'd be lets see here:

 

3 sins a day so that is breaking 613 laws three times daily which equals: 1839

1839 x 365 would be 671235 times a year!

671235 x 10 would equal a whopping 6,712, 350 times in 10 years! Holy Sin Batman!!

Just to get something straight here, you did take at least three leap-years into consideration within your calculations, correct?

 

 

 

[Open_Minded]

PS... Fwee and Mr. Grinch have at him

Hmph! I thought my last post made it pretty clear that I was done typing to him.

 

Sorry Fwee:

 

You posted while I was in the middle of my response to Chris and I didn't even notice. It was late, I was tired - and well just a little bit ticked off.

 

SaCH helped us understand first the nature of our own wrong approach to spanking (namely spanking in anger) and second the real reason for spanking (to address a wrong heart attitude) and TTUaC helped us to wrap biblical guidlines around when and how to spank. Namely, we now only spank for acts of deliberate disobedience. And we always use a lightweight paddle or switch (switches sting a lot more and are not likely to cause bruises which well-intentioned outsiders could easily misinterpret as abuse). It is absolutely critical that you not put off a necessary spanking (should you choose to spank, that is) until the offenses accumulate and your anger peaks. If you hear yourself saying something like "All right, that's it, I've had enough..." then you've let it go too far and are more likely to release your anger through the paddle. The final critical ingredient for us is to discuss why the child's actions were wrong and then pray with them. ….

 

You know how your heart/conscious knows something is wrong?

1. You have to hide what you are doing.
   
2. You have to justify, defend, or rationalize it - with some outside source (like the Bible) - so you can live with yourself.
   

---------------

 

So do I! When in ANGER. If you beat a child in anger you will answer to God.

 

--------------

 

However, children can be lovable not because they have an inherent value in them. They can only be lovable because God chooses to place a value upon them.

 

Yep - I was just a bit too ticked off to notice your response Fwee (and not at you either). Sorry ...