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Goodbye Jesus

Spare the Rod, Spare the Child


Open_Minded

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PS... Fwee and Mr. Grinch have at him
Hmph! I thought my last post made it pretty clear that I was done typing to him. :shrug:

Ditto for moi. Chris has abundantly proven that he's not working with a full deck, therefore it's a waste of time, effort and energy railing at him. I gave him my best shot with Under Delusion, and it obviously went right over his head.

 

Anyone who can ALLEGEDLY read this link and come to the retarded conclusions Chris did is either a LIAR, in DENIAL or he has the reading comprehension level of a dead snail. And I refuse to waste time with anyone like that.

 

Chris de Vidal is on his own. I'm done with him. :loser:

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You know, that is just horrible. Growing Kids God's Way teaches the same thing only they show a tool for spanking that will not leave marks on children. My DH and I were asked to facilitate a GKGW class, I'm so glad that we turned it down despite the FACT that the PASTOR, and all other members in leadership position "felt God" telling them that we would be great for the position.

 

GKGW also teaches that shyness is a result of poor parenting. :shrug: They teach that if children don't speak to adults and are shy that they should have a toy threatened and then taken away for non-compliance. Screw the damn waiver I signed saying I wouldn't speak about that course.

 

You have to sign waivers stating you won't speak about what the church teaches? :twitch::vent:

 

And full circle back to my earlier comment.

 

You know how your heart/conscious knows something is wrong?

You have to hide what you are doing.

You have to justify, defend, or rationalize it - with some outside source (like the Bible) - so you can live with yourself.

 

Serene ... just in case some Christian is wondering through here (and yes I know it will get lost on Chris) questioning their churches teachings on this stuff. Can you provide some links to the more positive ways of parenting that you mentioned earlier. If we can't reach Chris, maybe this thread will reach others.

 

Thanks.

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Chris....... :nono:

 

YOU may NOT attack O_M!!! I will beat your little cyber ass for you! (yes.....I'm putting this in the middle of a thread regarding abuse....it's called "irony" and it's intentional)

 

O_M was NOT the only person who got concerned reading your post regarding looking at your baby son and comparing him to Hitler. She is the one who started this thread asking for your to come on and discuss it like a human being.......instead you drag in that moldy book that NO ONE HERE BELIEVES IN (with the possible exception of O_M herself).

 

Do you really think any of us are impressed when you figuratively walk in our door with your bible pages scotch taped to your body and fluttering about in your wake? Lemme tell ya.....NO. Not only does it look completely stupid, but like the emperor's clothes.....we KNOW you are naked underneath.

 

I didn't miss your little sarcastic barbs at O_M. Very nice. She wastes the time caring about your ass, and you drip sarcasm acid on her shoes. Jerk.

 

At this point....I think of your little child growing up, and you an old man under his care. Whatever love and compassion....whatever lessons your son learns about caring and tending you in your old age, are going to be what he remembers receiving from you when he grew up.

 

You might want to think about that. And envision your son punishing you "with love" when you sin in your old age. :scratch:

 

If you think adult children do not exact vengeance upon their invalid elders.......you have not been paying attention to the news in the last 20 years.

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I am kind of bummed. I haven't sinned today.

Maybe I'll a swipe a couple sheets of copy paper and a pencil from work. That should take care of those three sins today.

 

Taph

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I am kind of bummed. I haven't sinned today.

Maybe I'll a swipe a couple sheets of copy paper and a pencil from work. That should take care of those three sins today.

 

Taph

 

You don't understand, Taph. You THOUGHT about sinning - just the contemplation of taking a couple sheets of copy paper and a pencil is enough to damn you in God's eyes. So, go ahead take as much as you want - the thought alone sent you to hell. :wicked:

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Wow, that was four pages of some serious intensity... those last few links were really interesting about parenting and about hitting your children. i was one of those kids that got smacked around a lot, and definitely spanked with anything that could be found. <shudder> My mom was always a very conservative christian and really looked for the lawd's guidance when raising me... i'm curious if she read any of those books, or anything else that would reinforce the "spanking is the lawds way to salvation". i know she was really big on Dobson and Swindall (i think that's their names) and their show Focus on the Family. anyone have any insight how these quacks thought children should be raised? throw me a pm, i'd really appreciate it.

 

So my .02 on this, I have zero desire to have children because of the childhood I had... Sadly, I can definitely understand where Chris is coming from with the desire to enforce punishment on those smaller than us.... its intoxicating, and if you don't get it under control, it'll run your life. it seems like he has some of that, mixed in with a nice case of righteousness, so my heart is very very very heavy for that young boy. :( The only thing worse than hitting your child is hitting your child and feelilng justified in it. ick.

 

 

:(

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I stopped listening to Dobson when I heard him tell a parent to spank their 3 MONTH OLD because the baby refused to take a bottle of water at night.

I remember Chuck Swindall telling these parents to get thicker sticks to beat their 6 year old with. The ones they were using kept breaking.

 

Real nice people, huh?

 

Taph

 

edited for typing errors.

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I'm sure that Chris would be pleased if we believed that we were seeing Christ and not Chris. Being a sock puppet for Jesus, with the Lord's hand shoved up you-know-where, would give Chris a huge woody. :jesus:

 

:lmao: Sadly, that is the absolute truth. He's so "in love" with his "master" that there's no amount of degredation he wouldn't endure if he thought he was pleasing Jesus™.

 

Ditto for moi. Chris has abundantly proven that he's not working with a full deck, therefore it's a waste of time, effort and energy railing at him. I gave him my best shot with Under Delusion, and it obviously went right over his head.

 

Chris has only shown what truly saturating your mind and soul in Xianity really does to a person. He's a fantastic example of what Xianity and "Jesus"™ can really do for you, and that's turn you into a raving lunatic. Especially O_M - as has been said, she took the time to care and try to establish a dialogue with Chris, and as usual, all he responded with were snide little barbs and more Xian propaganda and programming.

 

Chris has done a fine job of showing us why we all left Xianity behind, and why it is right and indeed necessary to do so. I do enjoy shooting down his cultic doublespeak, but only because I think that others may come to read it someday and see both the stupidity of Xian behavior and some good reasons to avoid it. Chris certainly has insulted all of us and really should man up and apologize, but since we all know that won't ever come, we can look at the good his presence has been, and that's to clearly demonstrate why Xianity is sick and encourages demented thinking in its adherents.

 

Thanks for the help, Chris. If anyone can cast Jesus™ and his demonic cult in a clear and factual light, it's you. You don't know how many deconversions you've probably helped - good job! :3:

 

:jesus: = :asshole2:

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SaCH helped us understand first the nature of our own wrong approach to spanking (namely spanking in anger) and second the real reason for spanking (to address a wrong heart attitude) and TTUaC helped us to wrap biblical guidlines around when and how to spank. Namely, we now only spank for acts of deliberate disobedience. And we always use a lightweight paddle or switch (switches sting a lot more and are not likely to cause bruises which well-intentioned outsiders could easily misinterpret as abuse). It is absolutely critical that you not put off a necessary spanking (should you choose to spank, that is) until the offenses accumulate and your anger peaks. If you hear yourself saying something like "All right, that's it, I've had enough..." then you've let it go too far and are more likely to release your anger through the paddle. The final critical ingredient for us is to discuss why the child's actions were wrong and then pray with them. ….

 

You know, that is just horrible. Growing Kids God's Way teaches the same thing only they show a tool for spanking that will not leave marks on children. My DH and I were asked to facilitate a GKGW class, I'm so glad that we turned it down despite the FACT that the PASTOR, and all other members in leadership position "felt God" telling them that we would be great for the position.

 

GKGW also teaches that shyness is a result of poor parenting. :shrug: They teach that if children don't speak to adults and are shy that they should have a toy threatened and then taken away for non-compliance. Screw the damn waiver I signed saying I wouldn't speak about that course.

 

You know the more I think about this the more I have questions - I'm in that parallel universe again folks. This is all new territory to me.

 

The poster in the first quote was saying:

 

And we always use a lightweight paddle or switch (switches sting a lot more and are not likely to cause bruises which well-intentioned outsiders could easily misinterpret as abuse).

 

And Serene you mentioned another course at your old church that taught this crap.

 

So... where does a parent go shopping for a switch or paddle these days? Do we just mosey on down to the Christian bookstore and browse through the discipline section? I mean - are the paddles and switches - on shelves next to the books used to teach this crap? (Gives a whole new meaning to, "Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of heaven belongs.'")

 

How does one determine the "correct" tool of discipline? Is there something available for testing? Or do the parents bend over and try these things on each other to determine which tool gives just the "correct" amount of pain? Do these items come with disclaimers that if the parents are caught by local authorities the company can not be held responsible?

 

Only 1/2 joking here folks. From what I can tell - this is a whole industry of books/authors. So, is there an industry of paddles, switches? :shrug:

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Serene,

Fucking irony, that website!

They teach the rod for young children but doesn't teach rod for the older children and teens.

Gee, I wonder why?

If they want to be consistent, give them the rod for rest of their life under their perverted parents or no rod.

I'd go with the no rod option.

 

In one page, they said this:

"We want to see them respond to God not to us."

Chilling...

Chris, take heed of my advice: "Give them love, not rod"

You'd be better off.

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I am kind of bummed. I haven't sinned today.

Maybe I'll a swipe a couple sheets of copy paper and a pencil from work. That should take care of those three sins today.

 

Taph

You don't understand, Taph. You THOUGHT about sinning - just the contemplation of taking a couple sheets of copy paper and a pencil is enough to damn you in God's eyes. So, go ahead take as much as you want - the thought alone sent you to hell. :wicked:
Now THAT, was some funny stuff! :lmao::HaHa::lmao:

 

:woohoo:

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Look at this gem of a site on biblical parenting How to Chastise (use the rod properly)

 

Open_Minded....the Ezzo's course GKGW can only be done via ordering through a church. It isn't available in Christian Book Stores.

 

Serene... thanks for the link. What an eye-opener. :twitch:

From that site:

 

Parenting Principles

  1. Chastisement is the bringing of pain to a child to bring him to compliance from the heart.
  2. A father is responsible for the overall process of training the child.
  3. Using the rod is a crucial part to bringing up godly children.
  4. We need to keep the boundaries (rules) and consequences clear before chastising.
  5. We should not chastise in public.
  6. After chastising a child, a parent should lovingly talk with the child.

 

And again....

 

You know how your heart/conscious knows something is wrong?
  • You have to hide what you are doing.

 

Our Wise Creator obviously knew the need parents have to be very clear on the various aspects of discipline. Hebrews 12 summarizes much of what has been said in numerous other passages. Let us draw nine principles from the text and see how it applies to the use of chastising our child.

 

The author compares our Heavenly Father's discipline of His children with the way an earthly father does. He taught from what was familiar (chastisement in the home) with what was more difficult to understand (God's ways). To be honest, our in our situations, many of us have to learn from God's ways and apply it to our own homes. Our societies are in great decay.

 

  • You have to justify, defend, or rationalize it - with some outside source (like the Bible) - so you can live with yourself.

 

How sad... not only for Chris' child(ren) but also for him. What did he endure as a child to become so convinced of his own worthlessness? (Shaking head ... Sigh)

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OM, --> http://stoptherod.net/rod-petition.html

 

It even has a 'cushioned vinyl grip' so you don't have to get hand cramp while you beat your child. :)

 

Well... at least there is hope. These people are trying to do something to stop it.

 

Take a look at ad copy they had posted on the website - showing how companies sell these "chastening insturments".

 

How sick is that ... it's affordable - you can buy one for the kitchen, car, wherever. It's perfectly suited for today's busy parents. There's even a disclaimer: "Child Training Resources is not responsible for misuse of this product".

 

And last - but not least - it's premium grade polyurethane.

 

AAAARRRRGGGGG :vent:

 

http://stoptherod.net/images/child-trainin...urces-flyer.jpg

How_sick_is_this.jpg

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Is there a list, or anything, showing the wild'n whacky stuff that Atheists are marketing these days?

 

Since they're the ones going to Hell,

I'd imagine that they sell some pretty

far-out stuff. :mellow:

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Is there a list, or anything, showing the wild'n whacky stuff that Atheists are marketing these days?

 

Since they're the ones going to Hell,

I'd imagine that they sell some pretty

far-out stuff. :mellow:

 

Have at it Fwee, PLEASE find something to make me laugh - I need it. This parallel universe is driving me insane. :wacko_old:

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Is there a list, or anything, showing the wild'n whacky stuff that Atheists are marketing these days?

 

Since they're the ones going to Hell,

I'd imagine that they sell some pretty

far-out stuff. :mellow:

Have at it Fwee, PLEASE find something to make me laugh - I need it. This parallel universe is driving me insane. :wacko_old:
I wouldn't even know where to start. :shrug:

 

Actually, I was being sarcastic. I highly doubt that there are any atheist organizations that are marketing tools for child abuse.

 

Heh, and they're supposed to be Da Eeebil Ones™. :mellow:

 

That was the point that I had hoped to make. :shrug:

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If you know parents who have done that, realize that God will judge them.

Oh, so God isn't held to high standards like human parents, I see.

 

According to Chris's theology, God is not not judge christians who beat their children. Remember he and others have free "Escape from Judgement" pass.

 

BTW I don't think Chris believes his own bible, what's that verse in Hebrew which ex-christians cannot come back to the fold.

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Is there a list, or anything, showing the wild'n whacky stuff that Atheists are marketing these days?

 

Since they're the ones going to Hell,

I'd imagine that they sell some pretty

far-out stuff. :mellow:

Have at it Fwee, PLEASE find something to make me laugh - I need it. This parallel universe is driving me insane. :wacko_old:
I wouldn't even know where to start. :shrug:

 

Actually, I was being sarcastic. I highly doubt that there are any atheist organizations that are marketing tools for child abuse.

 

Heh, and they're supposed to be Da Eeebil Ones™. :mellow:

 

That was the point that I had hoped to make. :shrug:

 

Point well taken. ;)

 

This whole situation brings a whole new meaning to "family values" doesn't it?

 

You know what has amazed me for years? My husband and I are mainstream to liberal (depending on the issue). We don't use paddles and rods on our children. We don't teach them that they are "wicked at heart".

 

We're every "family values" advocate's nightmare. We actually talk to our kids - instead of attempt to control them with violence. And you know what - we have two young adult children and one teen - who have managed to stay clear of drugs, alcohol and premature sexual relationships. To name just a few of the pitfalls young people must manuver through in the teen/young adult years of life. (I'm knocking on wood here because I know these things can happen to any family. But - it's not just luck either - parenting does have some impact.)

 

Of all the kids I know doing drugs and/or alcohol and getting involved too early in sexual activity - many of those kids come out of extremely strict homes. I've 15 (going on 16) year-old daughter. She knows a girl who had sex 3 times in one night - with three different guys. It was prom night. The girl was "bragging" about it at school the next day. The girl comes from an upstanding "family values" family in our community. The kids doing drugs - same thing. An overwhelming amount of the time - show me a kid in our community caught up in that crap and I'll show you one of two things. Either the parents don't give a shit and are substance abusers as well - or the parents are fine upstanding citizens of the "family values" brigade.

 

Very ironic indeed. (Sigh)

..........

 

BTW ... Latest update - I've still not responded to Chris off-line. He can't keep the Bible off the table - so his latest email to me remains unanswered. Chris if you're cruising through here - I'll only answer emails in which it is you and me alone - leave the Bible out of it.

 

You know how your heart/conscious knows something is wrong?

  1. You have to hide what you are doing.

  2. You have to justify, defend, or rationalize it - with some outside source (like the Bible) - so you can live with yourself.

Respond to the above observation WITHOUT justifying your response using the Bible and I'll rejoin our private email conversation.

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I stopped listening to Dobson when I heard him tell a parent to spank their 3 MONTH OLD because the baby refused to take a bottle of water at night.

I remember Chuck Swindall telling these parents to get thicker sticks to beat their 6 year old with. The ones they were using kept breaking.

 

I can't comprehend how people can possibly buy into that stuff. You don't beat children. Period. Anyone who would beat an infant for not being thirsty enough is less than human in my book.

 

:ugh:

 

There are few crimes worse than child abuse. It does so much lifelong damage.

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Dobson is truly vile, although his chapter on 'The Origins of Homosexuality' in Bringing Up Boys (?) is good for a chuckle (until you realise people actually believe this, and apply it to how they raise their children).

 

Other than his support for beating and spanking children, what he says of women (particularly single mothers for whom he reserves most contempt) is disgusting, but not as disgusting as the fact that the majority of his fan base is in fact female.

 

I read somewhere that his own children (or child) are/were complete hellions. Does anyone know anything about this?

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Update.... Chris answered a question of mine in another thread. Following is the question and answer:

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&s...ndpost&p=155008

 

(Chris)
Open_Minded said:

"Will you spare the rod?"

 

This question is a trap. If I were to ask you, "Does your mom know you are stupid?" Either way you answer, you're stupid.

 

Just as there are good and just police that uphold the law to prevent total anarchy, emotion-controlled and careful and loving discipline helps children.

 

Just as there are wicked and unjust police that abuse their power, there are abusive parents who just let their kid have it any time they feel like it.

 

So... to be clear... the answer is ... very simply.

 

"No", "No, I will not spare the rod"

 

No one here is surprised, Chris. But, still, for the record it needed to be stated. Justify your response all you want with your little analogies about police. When it boils right down to it....

  1. Parents all over this world manage to raise children without EVER using a rod (or a paddle, or any other insturment of "discipline"/torture).
  2. If you did NOT know in your heart - your conscious - that it is WRONG to use the rod (or anything else) you wouldn't feel the need to defend it with a stupid analogy. You'd simply say, "No - I will NOT spare the rod". The problem is your conscious knows better and so you make excuses for your bad behavior. This way it's easier to live with yourself.

I feel sorry for you Chris - I really do. I can not imagine what happened in your life to get you to this point - where you look at a 4 month old baby and see a "wicked heart". Where all ready you have intentionally planned out how you will harm this child's spirit with words and physical abuse.

 

I feel sorry for you, I feel sorry for Dominic and I worry about him. :(

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I feel sorry for you Chris - I really do. I can not imagine what happened in your life to get you to this point - where you look at a 4 month old baby and see a "wicked heart". Where all ready you have intentionally planned out how you will harm this child's spirit with words and physical abuse.

 

I feel sorry for you, I feel sorry for Dominic and I worry about him. :(

Chris cannot see beyond how he has chosen to read the pages of the Bible because he has no sense of his true self. It was probably lost somewhere along the line during childhood. Chris does not have a healthy relationship with his religion or God, because in order to have a healthy relationship with someone else, you must first have a sense of yourself and feel good about who you are.

 

It is likely Chris has wrapped himself in how he reads the pages of the Bible because there is a broken child in there who is terrified of the world and how they fit into it. Chris, which specific denomination/cult in Christianity do you attempt to create your identity from? I seriously would like to know what organization's doctrines you have adopted to define yourself by (and don't say "from the Bible", I'm much to intellegent to accept that as an answer)?

 

Chris cannot speak from his heart, because he doesn't know it. He has artifically replaced it with any interpretation of someone else ideals about God. His true self is his artifical false self.

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Chris cannot speak from his heart, because he doesn't know it. He has artifically replaced it with any interpretation of someone else ideals about God. His true self is his artifical false self.

 

So true, Antlerman. And until he realizes that there is no way to have a genuinely healthy relationship with the Xian religion or the Xian god, I'm afraid he'll remain firmly ensconced right where he is, and his true identity will be drowned in a sea of a mythical god's blood.

 

Only when the sleeper awakens will anything change - for him and for his son.

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Chris cannot speak from his heart, because he doesn't know it. He has artifically replaced it with any interpretation of someone else ideals about God. His true self is his artifical false self.

 

So true, Antlerman. And until he realizes that there is no way to have a genuinely healthy relationship with the Xian religion or the Xian god, I'm afraid he'll remain firmly ensconced right where he is, and his true identity will be drowned in a sea of a mythical god's blood.

 

Only when the sleeper awakens will anything change - for him and for his son.

It is very sad that Chris doesn't know what's in his heart. I agree with Antler and Var - he probably has no true sense of self. That's a horrible place to be...

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