Spare the Rod, Spare the Child

[Open_Minded]

Firstly I'd like to say that I didn't read any of the above post (10 pages is a bit much) but I want to ask a question.

 

Taylor, I admire your willingness to discuss this issue so openly.

 

A few questions?

 

Do you have any children? If so what are the ages?

 

Did you read enough of the thread to understand why so many of us are upset with Chris?

 

African Americas are deeply engrained with the mentality that you are supposed to beat your children if they do wrong. I grew up thinking it was okay so I still figure that it is. Maybe it's wrong to spank children but I don't know how to deal with some kids. ....

 

How should you handle a child who acts like this? Are there any good books on how to raise disobedient children?

 

Taylor - I've raised three children. Two daughters and a son. Two are young adults, our youngest is a teen.

 

I can't speak to the culture you grew up - I can answer your question about how to handle a child who acts like this (throws a fit in a grocery store).

1. I never took my young children out in public if it was near nap time or meal time. In my mind it was setting us all up for disaster. So public fits were rare - but they did occur. They usually - no they ALWAYS - occurred because the child was being pushed beyond his/her capabilities. Staying in a public place too long for attention span - that kind of thing.
   
2. I can only remember a handful of times - the worst being when our then 3 year-old son began to pitch a fit in a restaurant. We were with larger extended family, it had been a long day already, the food was late in arriving and his attention span was wearing thin.
   
3. What did I do - I simply picked him up and took him outside. I walked around with him outside and calmed him down. I couldn't remove us completely from the situation - because my father was driving. But, I walked around outside until he calmed down. Then I put him down, held his hand and we walked around exploring plants, rocks, etc... until my husband came to tell us the food was ready.
   

This takes more time and it can be very aggravating, because it's not possible to enjoy social situations the way you might when you don't have to parent children. But, parenting is work - that's all there is to it. And in the end - violence used on a child teaches that child that violence is a legitimate solution to ones problems. We live in a pretty violent culture - one reason is because we TEACH violence (not just in our parenting - but in other ways as well).

 

When all is said and done, my husband and I did NOT raise perfect children. But, they are basically good people who have stayed out of trouble and earn their own way. Our young adult children (22 and 19) live on their own and support themselves. Our youngest (16) works and is putting money away for college. They have a healthy since of right and wrong and they are capable of compassion towards other human beings. We didn't do too bad with other forms of discipline besides beating them.

[KT45]

Firstly I'd like to say that I didn't read any of the above post (10 pages is a bit much) but I want to ask a question.

 

Taylor, I admire your willingness to discuss this issue so openly.

 

A few questions?

 

Do you have any children? If so what are the ages?

 

No I figure I'm way too young. I'm only twenty but I don't plan on having kids anytime soon. I just want to learn because I desire knowledge that I might be practical to apply one day.

 

Did you read enough of the thread to understand why so many of us are upset with Chris?

Not enough no. But I read about one or two pages and it seems like he is fixated on reading and applying the bible literally and it's a concern since he has kids. I'm probably way off, I'll read more later.

 

I can't speak to the culture you grew up - I can answer your question about how to handle a child who acts like this (throws a fit in a grocery store).

1. I never took my young children out in public if it was near nap time or meal time. In my mind it was setting us all up for disaster. So public fits were rare - but they did occur. They usually - no they ALWAYS - occurred because the child was being pushed beyond his/her capabilities. Staying in a public place too long for attention span - that kind of thing.
   
2. I can only remember a handful of times - the worst being when our then 3 year-old son began to pitch a fit in a restaurant. We were with larger extended family, it had been a long day already, the food was late in arriving and his attention span was wearing thin.
   
3. What did I do - I simply picked him up and took him outside. I walked around with him outside and calmed him down. I couldn't remove us completely from the situation - because my father was driving. But, I walked around outside until he calmed down. Then I put him down, held his hand and we walked around exploring plants, rocks, etc... until my husband came to tell us the food was ready.
   

It seems like your kids usually got mad when they were irritated. Did they ever try to intentionally test you to see how you would react? Like blatantly not acknowledge a command? Or maybe say a "naughty" word to see if you would get mad.? How did you handle these situations

 

We didn't do too bad with other forms of discipline besides beating them.

What about things like hand slaps? Would these be okay? Do you think it should be illegal to hit kids?

 

I'm really trying to comphend stuff like this working for the "badass" kids

[Open_Minded]

First Taylor, please understand ... I was NOT a perfect mother and I did NOT have perfect children and we are NOT a perfect family. Please know there is no such thing as a perfect parents, children or families. My mother always says that you can't put two people in a house without trouble rising to the surface. It's not possible. Please know this - because if you go into marriage or parenthood thinking there is some ideal that you must measure up to you will never be able to forgive yourself or the people you love when you (or they) inevitably fall short.

 

In fact - quite honestly - I wish other parents would jump into this discussion with their own experiences and ideas. That way the discussion will be more rounded and grounded in reality.

 

Do you have any children? If so what are the ages?

No I figure I'm way too young. I'm only twenty but I don't plan on having kids anytime soon. I just want to learn because I desire knowledge that I might be practical to apply one day.

Taylor - you are wise. We waited until we were married four years before having children. I'm glad we did. Children are a lot of work. Parenthood requires giving a lot of yourself. Any parent can get exhausted and tired and frustrated. By the time we did have children we were both ready for the sacrifice. So, I never resented my kids. I got tired, I got exhausted. I lost my temper, I said and did things I would take back. I made mistakes (lots of them). But, I can honestly say I never resented their presence in my life. And I hope they felt that, I hope they know when I made my mistakes it was because of a lot of things, of being human and being imperfect - but never because I resented them, or didn't want them around.

 

 

Did you read enough of the thread to understand why so many of us are upset with Chris?

Not enough no. But I read about one or two pages and it seems like he is fixated on reading and applying the bible literally and it's a concern since he has kids. I'm probably way off, I'll read more later.

Yes.. this is pretty much it. In short - because he reads the Bible literally he feels it's perfectly o.k. to beat children on their bare bottoms with a reed, switch, paddle (that type of thing). He also feels it's entirely appropriate to teach children they are "wicked at heart" or sinful by nature. If you want to get a quick picture you might start reading at the following links.

 

Seabiscuit’s story:

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=153597

My parents carried out the bible as they understood it in every possible way. Chris, I experienced christian abuse from the time I was six months old. Following the old testament, they lovingly and carefully beat me. If I showed any sign of sinfulness or bad attitudes,

they took me into a room, explained my sin, removed my clothes from the waist down, placed me/asked me to bend over a bed or grab a chair, hit me until I gave a broken and submissive cry (no matter how long it took),

dressed me, held me and together we prayed to god for forgiveness.

 

One of my posts – quoting Chris’ description of what he did to his mother:

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=153973

(Chris) Once I was so mad at my mom, I took her face and pressed my thumb into her eye socket. It began with a hateful thought and that thought wanted blood! God considers hate to be on the same level as murder! When I read in the OT that I should have been stoned it sent chills down my spine. Still does. If that Law still applies grace is magnified. Why would God save such a wretch like me???

See the thing is - that the moment you describe above is NOT NORMAL. This is not something that happens in the average home Chris. Parents may - at times - discipline a child. But what you describe above is NOT normal. Discipline does not lead to moments like you described.

 

My mother slapped my face when I mouthed off to her. But ... she NEVER abused me. There is a difference. My father - very occasionally (as in I can count on one hand the number of times it happened) spanked us children. Never - violently. This is discipline. And Chris ... the difference between discipline and abuse - is that abuse is violent, consistent (day in - day out). Abuse is a way of life - discipline is something that is occasional and NEVER crosses a line into violence.

 

It seems like your kids usually got mad when they were irritated.

My children were just like your average kids. They had their good days and their bad days.

 

I did try to pay attention to their limits and not put them in situations that were unreasonable for their age or maturity level. That's 1/2 the battle in my mind - to know what your child is capable of dealing with and not push limits.

 

On the other hand - we have to expect them to grow and mature and that means intentionally stretching their limits. This can be very frustrating for a child and parent both. And there is no easy answer - it's just really important to know your child and think ahead.

 

For example - our children were not taken to nice restaurants until they were mature enough to handle the environment (with the exception of group situations in which we had little or no control). My son threw his fit in a family restaurant - on a trip with my parents and siblings. We were at a family funeral - and there really was no way around eating in restaurants. But, by and large, we didn't take the children into these types of social situations until they were mature enough to appreciate the situation.

 

This is a side story - but it's cute and I'm a mother (what can I say). Our youngest child is a daughter and she is naturally - well a girl. She likes nice clothes - she would only wear dresses until she was 8/9 years old. So pretty, frilly, fancy things really connect with her. Well - when she was about 4 or 5 years old we were on another trip with extended family. Our extended family is pretty large - 20 to 30 people depending on the gathering. On this trip - we were staying at cabins near an old historic downtown area in small community. Everyone decided to spend the afternoon antique shopping and checking out the historic downtown area. We started the afternoon at an Italian restaurant on mainstreet. My mother had called in advance and made reservations. We were ushered into a private sitting room in old mansion. The group was spread out around multiple tables - with linens and everything one would expect in an old mansion setting. Well this was the first time my youngest had been in such a nice restaurant. She was sitting next to me and her eyes were just huge. After looking around and soaking in the environment - she tugged at my sleeve. When I bent over to talk with her she showed me her place setting. She had counted out the different silverware, the multiple cups/glasses and different plates. Her eyes were just huge and she whispered, "Mommy we're in a FANCY restaurant, aren't we"?

 

OK - done with cute child story. The point is that if a parent waits until the child is mature enough for a situation - then it is fun. There isn't the amount of stress there would be if a child was put into a situation they aren't mature enough to deal with.

 

Did they ever try to intentionally test you to see how you would react? Like blatantly not acknowledge a command? Or maybe say a "naughty" word to see if you would get mad.? How did you handle these situations?

Oh... yes.. they were your average kids. They had times when they intentionally pushed my buttons - they wouldn't have been normal if they hadn't.

 

On my best days I was patient and perfect. These days were few and far between, however.

 

Most of the time I just did the best I could. But, there are tons of ways to deal with this type of behavior without resorting to violence. It's possible to:

1. Send children to their bedrooms. Our kids never had T.V.s or Game Boys, etc... in their bedrooms, so this truly was discipline. They did have books - and if they read books during a bedroom sit-in - all the better.
   
2. One can take away privileges. If a child does not come in the house when you call them, it is possible to ground them in the house the next evening. If a child takes off on a bike without a helmet it is possible to take the bike away for the rest of the day. If a child refuses to clean their bedroom, it's possible to put them in their room and shut the door until the room is clean. If siblings fight with each other it's possible to put them in separate rooms for an hour. That type of stuff. One just has to be smarter and more imaginative than their child.
   

What about things like hand slaps? Would these be okay? Do you think it should be illegal to hit kids? I'm really trying to comphend stuff like this working for the "badass" kids

As I said - I'm not perfect. There were times when my children received physical punishment. I'm not proud of it - but I also know it wasn't beating.

 

Once my eldest daughter called me a bitch. She was about 16 years old - and really testing the limits. Other kids used language like that - so she was testing to see how far she could go with me. She got her face slapped. I'm not proud of that - but - I also know she was 16 years old. She knew better and she was old enough to learn that her mother was a human being with feelings and limits as well.

 

My own mother slapped my face a few times for mouthing off. She used to tell me, "everyone has their limits, everyone. You are old enough to comprehend when you are pushing someone's limits". Now I know what she meant. Young children have NO comprehension of a parent's limits. As they get older they test and test and test. At some point - they will push "too far". Most of the time when my kids pushed "too far" I was able to control my temper. But, there were times when I lost control, too.

 

It's good you are asking before parenthood. If I could give you any overall advice it would be:

1. Wait until you're ready, and be ready to give up a lot of your freedom - then you won't resent a child's presence in your life.
   
2. Keep asking questions - of a lot of parents.
   
3. Surround yourself with a support system. I was lucky, besides my husband - we also had a wonderful neighbors who were also raising children and two very large extended families. But, it's possible to build a support system if you don't have one naturally.
   
4. Find a way to put humor in your life - it's really important to have a sense of humor regarding your children and parenthood in general. I needed people in my life who could help me find the humor in my children's behavior and in my response to their behavior.
   

I really hope other parent's jump in here and answer some of your questions from their own perspective. It would be so much better, for you, if you had otehr viewpoints.

[Fweethawt]

Her eyes were just huge and she whispered, "Mommy we're in a FANCY restaurant, aren't we"?

 

OK - done with cute child story.

This reminds me of the time when I took my boys to the toy store back when they were little. I think they were 4 and 6 at the time. Anyway, we pull in and park, and when we got out of the car, my youngest son's shoe was untied. So, as I'm bending down to tie his shoe, he looks around at all of the cars in the parking lot and says, "Dad, there's a shitload of people here!" I looked up at him with a smirk on my face and said, "What?" Then his eyes got real big and he said, "Nothin'!"

 

I just laughed. He knew that he said something wrong, but there was no way that I could hit him for it since I myself use that word often when describing large quantities of things. So I laughed and said, "That's okay. I know what you meant. C'mon." and we walked into the store.

 

So, when it comes to "bad words", for the most part, children get them and learn them from the people around them. If a small child says stuff like that, it really can't be held against them. After all, they probably learned it right from the adults that want to smack them for it.

 

To this day (my sons are 14 and 16 now - soon to be 15 and 17), when my sons and I are just sitting around and talking, or talking while doing something else, every once in a while, they'll throw in a "cuss" word.

 

I don't bring any attention to it since most of the time it's done in a joking manner. Another reason why I don't make a big deal about it is because I know that they don't use any of those words in mixed company or around other family members. I never taught them this. They just seemed to learn it themselves.

 

 

When they were little, any time that either of them ever really threw a tantrum was along the lines of what OM stated above. They were either tired, hungry or both at the same time. We had a couple of instances where we didn't enjoy a meal out as much as we liked because of this, but we never did hit them because of it.

 

Smaller children are unable to express themselves verbally.

That's why they usually do it vocally.

 

They're brand new people that haven't learned a "civilized" way of communicating just yet.

 

Is it right to hold that against them? Nope.

 

Picture yourself being tired and hungry with no known way of communicating with the ones who are responsible for feeding you or giving you a place to rest. Eventually, there will be an emotional outburst, and you're going to make some noise, or a "scene".

 

Children are no different.

 

Now, I can really only speak for myself and my two children when I say that the trick to raising decent children lies in showing them lots of patience and lots of respect (yes I said respect) as people. As your child grows, treat them like adults when they have something to say to you. Calmly look right at them while they're speaking and show an interest in what they're telling you.

 

Eventually, they'll do the same - even (especially) when you're correcting them. You'll be able to look them in the eye and calmly tell them to do or not do something and they'll listen.

 

 

Shit! I'm rambling now... I don't even know how much of this makes sense.

 

If you have any questions about what I wrote, throw them out. Either I'll make my way back to this thread to reply, or a little birdy* will tell me to.

 

 

 

 

*

[white_raven23]

 

watch from 0:25 secs to 1:18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wl0ptthpvBY...earch=boondocks

 

How should you handle a child who acts like this? Are there any good books on how to raise disobedient children?

 

 

OOOOOHHHH BOY!!!!!

 

First of all.....you could SEE exactly why that little bastard was a bastard. You think his Mom was only being a total milquetoast there in the store???? Uh-Uh!!!!

She's let that little shit have his way from the day he was born! You show no boundries and structure when they are tiny....you've got a feral little shit that's going to be total HELL to retrain.

 

Spend about four weeks or so watching that show on the Discovery channel "Honey We're Killing the Kids!"

 

Bunch of right badly raised bastards.

 

Here is a list of things that give a child WAY TOO MUCH control!!!!

 

Your brat doesn't need a TV in their own bedroom. Or a DVD player (duh)

They don't need their own PC or the family PC to be in there either.

You don't owe them their own phone or phone line in there either.

And not one of your little shits from the day you bring them home from the hospital to the day they head off to college need a LOCK on their bedroom door!

 

The only way "time out" is EVER going to work, is when TIME out actually means TIME out of that kids day where they can't do what they want to do. You send your kid to his room and he's got more video games than the arcade, and more DVDs than the local Megaplex is showing....and you tell me.....what punishment is it supposed to be to send him to his room?

 

My mom did timeout differently. She did not have the illusion that MY punishment meant a little peace and quiet for herself. Punishment was punishment. It was NOT "fifteen minute break" time for her. And that is the mistake a LOT of parents make when they try to utilize "time out". As a result timeout is used at inapropriate times and in inconsistant ways. THAT is why folks whine that timeout doesn't work....it's because they aren't using it correctly.

 

My Mom picked a spot on the wall where she could keep an eye on me...and I had to put my nose there. NO sitting...NO moving. If I moved my nose.....timout started over. And it didn't matter if I wound up standing on that wall all evening because I kept turning my head. She'd keep me right there until bedtime. And it would have been my own fault too if my whole evening was wasted that way (trust me.....I know it happened once....but ONLY once).

 

I went to a private school that believed in corporal punishment. It was a bad school as they never informed my PARENTS that was their deal.

 

I was a good kid. So it was a long time before my parents found out the truth about that school. They weren't happy.

 

Teachers could paddle your butt with a board. And you know what the effect was for me? It only happened twice.

 

RAGE

 

That was the end result of physical punishment for me. Especially as both times were unjust. BTW I did tell this story earlier in this very thread, I just didn't want Taylor to have to backtrack for the main point of the story.

 

A real punishment teaches you something. Physical punishment only makes the undesired behavior stop....for that moment, and it sparks a flood of RAGE in the recipient.

 

When you child reaches puberty and has to deal with the hormonal flood.....do you want them reasoning it out? Or reacting with rage and violence?

[KT45]

Thanks for the responses. You have to excuse me I was raised to think that the fear of God needed to be beat into children. Not from my parents, I only got a few spankings and I can't count those on one hand. But I learned this from other kids I knew as well as churches so it still seems okay to me. So I'm not really used to this mindset. But I enjoy going through little paradigm shifts since I became an ex-christian. One more wouldn't hurt.

 

And not one of your little shits from the day you bring them home from the hospital to the day they head off to college need a LOCK on their bedroom door!

I exactly what you just said on an episode of nannie 911 and I totally agree. Kids can't run into there rooms and lock there doors if they get upset but instead have to deal with problems by talking.

 

My Mom picked a spot on the wall where she could keep an eye on me...and I had to put my nose there. NO sitting...NO moving. If I moved my nose.....timout started over. And it didn't matter if I wound up standing on that wall all evening because I kept turning my head. She'd keep me right there until bedtime. And it would have been my own fault too if my whole evening was wasted that way (trust me.....I know it happened once....but ONLY once).

the first thing that went through my head when I heard this punishment is if the child says "NO!!!" Either no I'm not going against the wall or I'm not going to my room. I guess you could take away his supper or his toys or something. Is this effective?

 

She was sitting next to me and her eyes were just huge. After looking around and soaking in the environment - she tugged at my sleeve. When I bent over to talk with her she showed me her place setting. She had counted out the different silverware, the multiple cups/glasses and different plates. Her eyes were just huge and she whispered, "Mommy we're in a FANCY restaurant, aren't we"?

You're kids sound adorable O_M

 

But anyway I want to bring up a hypothetical situation. This is basically to test to see if not having beatings would work for most situations. If this situation is unreasonable please call me out. Let's say we have a single mother with one kid and one on the way. It doesn't matter the color of her skin or how she became a single mother but that is beside the point. She works a lower middle class job that has weird work hours, like a nurse or something, so she has very little time with her kids. Now if she comes home late on a school night and discovers her kids have done something wrong, lets say her kid ripped up documentation the mother needed for her job the next day on purpose. Why did the child do so? Let's say they had an argument since the child brought home a bad report from elementary school. Because she has limited time to deal with the situation (since she has to work and the child needs to go to school) she needs a quick method to punish the child. She decides to hit the child on the bottom with a belt a few times and when she is done she comforts the crying child to sleep. In this situation would beatings suffice? I'm not saying that beatings are the best method, they are probably the worst next to throwing the child out. I'm saying that in this case it isn't immoral.

 

Again call me out if this situation is unreasonable.

[Fweethawt]

Again call me out if this situation is unreasonable.

I'm not going to call you out on this, but I would like for you to take some time and read this thread from the beginning. Sure, it's ten pages (or so) long by now, but there are some writings and links within this thread with information that might help you come "up to speed" with the level of the thread at this point.

 

I didn't mean that to sound degrading at all. However, I think that if you do read the entire thread up to this point, there's a good chance that you'll be able to take a look at the scenario you posted above and come up with a better solution all on your own.

[Taphophilia]

I have to say that African Americans are very hard on their children. Not just the spanking, but the expectations. The children have to be walking by a year and potty trained before two, plus they expect the children to sit in church for hours upon hours upon hours like good little soldiers. It also disturbs me how baby boys are raised, because they are boys. Black children are raised through brutality. The issue is way beyond spanking.

 

Most of us who are white do not understand black culture and exactly how black children are raised. I think our black members should enlighten us so we can understand.

 

Taph

[Jubilant]

But anyway I want to bring up a hypothetical situation. This is basically to test to see if not having beatings would work for most situations. If this situation is unreasonable please call me out. Let's say we have a single mother with one kid and one on the way. It doesn't matter the color of her skin or how she became a single mother but that is beside the point. She works a lower middle class job that has weird work hours, like a nurse or something, so she has very little time with her kids. Now if she comes home late on a school night and discovers her kids have done something wrong, lets say her kid ripped up documentation the mother needed for her job the next day on purpose. Why did the child do so? Let's say they had an argument since the child brought home a bad report from elementary school. Because she has limited time to deal with the situation (since she has to work and the child needs to go to school) she needs a quick method to punish the child. She decides to hit the child on the bottom with a belt a few times and when she is done she comforts the crying child to sleep. In this situation would beatings suffice? I'm not saying that beatings are the best method, they are probably the worst next to throwing the child out. I'm saying that in this case it isn't immoral.

 

Again call me out if this situation is unreasonable.

 

 

No, "beatings" are never necessary and I don't like the example given either. There are many single moms who don't lay a finger on their children, despite grueling hours. In the same token, if a child has virtually NO contact with mom and/or dad, NO one to be there for them, NO one to comfort them or spend time with them, then the child is acting out for lack of attention and sometimes a child KNOWS that they will get some attention if they behave badly...even if their action would receive a beating. Children, unlike most adults I've ever known, LOVE unconditionally their parents no matter how said parent(s) treats them. That breaks my heart.

 

I USED to spank my children but I can count on one hand the times I spanked our 8yo daughter and the same goes for our 11yo son. What works better than time out or spankings is gentle parenting. When adults act immaturely (I won't say like children, its an insult and negative stereotype) they don't get sent to their room. Parents can have temper tantrums, act like jerks, etc. without any reprimand. Parents can argue with each other or another adult for hours on end and sometimes carry on for over a week and no one FORCES them to apologize, but yet children are expected to get it together or else....that is bullshit. Children deserve to have their feelings respected, they aren't perfect and neither are the people in charge of them.

 

Society expects a lot out of these precious creatures and expect them to live up to standards that they themselves do not live up to except many people think nothing of physically harming them in order to receive compliance.

 

Lets take your scenario and step it up a bit. A married couple has a huge argument and out of anger, the wife tears up the husbands important papers...What should be the punishment for her? Vice versa, what should be the punishment for the husband? People who love each other would eventually work it out. They may stay pissed and not talk for days, but they'd work it out. Children, deserve the same courtesy and even more but in all honestly, I think many children actually give adults the more important life lessons. When a child forgives, they forgive. When a child is allowed to let their conscience tell them apologize, it is the most sincerest apology in the world. OTH, if one has an abusive spouse and the man even SMACKED the woman on the face she could very well have his ass thrown in jail.

 

Children are born without any say. (disclaimer: "we" means in general and most parents) We take them places they don't want to go, we turn off their favorite tv shows so that we can watch our show, make them eat things they don't like (when not even we would not do so), stop them in the midst of fun, ignore their pleas for time, ask them to respect those totally not worthy of respect, etc. Then when they react, they are punished. That is just pathetic, parents need to change and realize that children are no different, they are just smaller.

[Jubilant]

Forgot my answer to the scenario... I can't speak for a single parent because I'm not one. However, non-beating/spanking/timeouter single parents do exist and ones who aren't pushover's either. Their is a mutual respect between them and their children and they work it out by communicating, compassion, understanding and love.

 

One of my dearest friends is a black woman, I'll ask her about the African American view of parenting.

[Alice]

Hi Taylork - good questions

 

Here's a little input from my experience ...

 

I am a Mother of four ranging in age from 20yrs to 12yrs. I am white and English, however I too was raised in a home where physical punishment was the culture and my parents were very controlling with high expectations. Smackings were administered for failure to fulfil expectations as well as for deliberate disobedience or childish misdemeanours.

 

I hated this as a child and would feel intense anger and upset as well as the physical discomfort and humiliation. I can't see that it helped me manage my behaviour much, other than it made me quite crafty and prone to telling lies, in an attempt to avoid punishment. All that control meant I actually developed very little self control (a consequence of which being that I found it hard to withstand peer pressure and went completely off the rails as soon as I left home to go to college)

 

However something weird happened to me in my teens ... I started to think that the way my parents had raised me must be the right way to go. When I had my first child my parents bought me a copy of 'Dare to Discipline' by James Dobson and I attempted to adopt his restrictive and controlling method of parenting backed up by physical punishment.

 

You know it seemed to work ... until I had my second child that is and then I realised that my first child was actually naturally compliant but the same could not be said for the second!

 

He was a complete whirlwind - an energetic and curious little explorer who found it hard to sit still. He would tear around full pelt every day until he keeled over and fell instantly asleep. He wouldn't do half what I wanted him to do (he was only 2 at this stage) and so I would reinforce the messages I was giving him with a smack to the hand or the back of the legs (I am cringing as I write this and it pains me to recall that I ever behaved in this way)

 

One morning (I was living in Germany and my hubby who was in the forces was away) I counted up the fact that I had smacked him ten times. I looked at the clock and it was only 8.30am. I rang my Mother in tears and said I believed the way I was disciplining my children was abusive. My Mother gave me the speech about not letting children win and how I had to establish myself as 'in charge' and that I must persevere, and that I was only doing this out of love and that children need discipline.

 

I was 23years old and still found it hard to go against anything my parents said but something snapped inside me - I piled both children into the pushchair and went to the library where I borrowed every book I could find on child development, understanding children and behaviour management without smacking.

 

That day changed my life!

 

I am now a child protection social worker and the Mother of two more children who have never been hit - but they are thoughtful, respectful, hardworking, loving and my heart swell with pride everytime they walk into a room. (The older two have come through wonderfully as well despite the rocky start I gave them!)

 

In line with other replies from then on I was careful not to put my children in situations where they would be out of their depth and not to expect them to cope with things that were beyond them. Discipline really means to 'teach'. I look at it this way. Children are learning to be adults, if you were learning a new role or task would you find it helpful if someone reinforced the instructions by hitting you everytime you got it wrong?

 

I used time out - up until the children were about seven or eight, just one minute for every year of age. We had a seat at the end of the hall way we used for this purpose. All those years ago we called it 'the naughty chair' although if I had my time over again I wouldn't use this term (I don't think its useful anymore to 'label' children ... but you live and learn!) My cute story is this ...

 

I came into the hall to see my second son sitting on the 'naughty chair', he was about five at the time. I was a bit surprised as he hadn't been sent there, I asked him what he was doing and he replied, 'well you see Mummy - I just feel a bit naughty'

 

And that is the beginning of self control!

 

The scenario you describe of the single parent and the child who has destroyed a piece of work documentation makes me feel so much for the child (and the Mother) - money means little to a child, and ready access to the person they love the most in the world - means the world to them. If ever there was a clear case of a child saying I love you and I need you and I wish you didn't have to work all these crazy hours - this is it.

 

My view is this last thing this child would need would be to be physically punished.

 

p.s Fwee - your comments make shitloads of sense

[Open_Minded]

You're kids sound adorable O_M

Thanks - Taylor. They are your average, everyday kids. And they are wonderful as well - like Alice - I feel very proud of my children.

 

But anyway I want to bring up a hypothetical situation. This is basically to test to see if not having beatings would work for most situations. If this situation is unreasonable please call me out. Let's say we have a single mother with one kid and one on the way. It doesn't matter the color of her skin or how she became a single mother but that is beside the point. She works a lower middle class job that has weird work hours, like a nurse or something, so she has very little time with her kids. Now if she comes home late on a school night and discovers her kids have done something wrong, lets say her kid ripped up documentation the mother needed for her job the next day on purpose. Why did the child do so? Let's say they had an argument since the child brought home a bad report from elementary school. Because she has limited time to deal with the situation (since she has to work and the child needs to go to school) she needs a quick method to punish the child. She decides to hit the child on the bottom with a belt a few times and when she is done she comforts the crying child to sleep. In this situation would beatings suffice? I'm not saying that beatings are the best method, they are probably the worst next to throwing the child out. I'm saying that in this case it isn't immoral.

 

Again call me out if this situation is unreasonable.

 

Taylor - I've been thinking about this post all week. Actually, I waited to respond until others jumped in. It really is best to have different viewpoints.

 

All the answers given thus far are wonderful... and I can't add much more from a parent's perspective. But.... I do have a few thoughts from a child's perspective.

 

I am the second eldest of six children. My parents - as a rule - did not use physical punishment. During my teen years Dad was on the road a lot (as in 5 days out of the week, nights in hotel rooms). Mom worked very long hard hours as a nurse in a surgical unit. Everything from operating room nursing to floor nursing, which involved lifting patients who had recently been is surgery, to just simply nursing patients through post-surgery. Often her patients were fighting for their lives - sometimes for their next breath.

 

Mom's job was not easy, and at the end of very long days doing this type of work she did NOT go home to six well behaved perfect children. She went home to a dirty house and six very energetic and often bratty children. I was one of them - and I'm telling you - we were NOT easy to live with.

 

I was the second eldest. My older sister and I were expected to watch the younger children after school and start supper.

 

Now Taylor, at that time in my life I BELIEVED in corporal punishment, actually I relished the idea. Now mind you - I didn't call it corpal punishment. I called it, "beating the snot out of my younger brothers". But, I swore up and down I only did it to make them behave.

 

My mother came home, more often than I care to admit, to a house full of screaming and fighting little brats. And her two oldest girls, who were suppose to be managing the chaos, were usually fighting with each other - or one of the younger siblings. I can't even imagine what it was like for her to come home to that everyday - after such long days at the hospital.

 

But, do you know what, Taylor. Even though my mother did slap my face on a very FEW occassions for mouthing off - she never once got angry at me for the immature way I dealt with my younger siblings. Never. She knew my older sister and I were doing the best we could in a very difficult situation. She talked to us about our behavior - she helped us work through our feelings about the level of responsibility we had. She acknowledged that she was asking a lot from us, and she affirmed that we could get through it together. That sometimes life isn't easy - but that with love - and patience and compassion - families can survive about anything.

 

And she was right - we did get through those years together. All of us - for all the squabbling I did with my younger siblings - we're friends now. And we laugh about those years. We can laugh about them, Mom and Dad accepted our sibling rivalry as part of the picture. Certainly not behavior that one would want to take into adulthood, and certainly behavior that must be addressed - but still behavior that is normal for children. We are able to laugh about those years because my mother came home and was patient with us. She did not physically punish us for this behavior, she helped us deal with it. At worst she - she sent us to different rooms - more to give us a break from each other than anything else. Always she saw the best in all of us - always - even when she was tired, exhausted and angry herself. Even in her anger she would point out that we were capable of more, that we weren't to take each other for granted.

 

Anyway - I think these years were insturmental in my decision to hold off on parenthood until I was ready for the sacrifice.

 

When our children came along - I was hell-bent on staying home with them. We waited to have children until we could afford to live simply on one income. I started my own business at home - while the children were growing up. My teen years had convinced me that I was NOT going to go through what my mother went through. I saw her cry more during those years then anyone should ever cry. She would come home - and I'd go to her bedroom to talk about what we had started for dinner - and I would see her wiping tears from her face, as she opened the door after changing out of her nurses uniform.

 

I would feel awful for fighting with my siblings - and I'm sure they did as well. We were all just doing the very best that we could do. My sister and I were much too young to be left in charge of four children - and my mother knew it. But, she had no choice. So we all just did the best we could do. And when it came my turn to parent - I held off until I had more choices than my mother. And these years are the reason I said earlier:

 

If I could give you any overall advice it would be:

1. Wait until you're ready, and be ready to give up a lot of your freedom - then you won't resent a child's presence in your life.
   
2. Keep asking questions - of a lot of parents.
   
3. Surround yourself with a support system. I was lucky, besides my husband - we also had a wonderful neighbors who were also raising children and two very large extended families. But, it's possible to build a support system if you don't have one naturally.
   
4. Find a way to put humor in your life - it's really important to have a sense of humor regarding your children and parenthood in general. I needed people in my life who could help me find the humor in my children's behavior and in my response to their behavior.
   

 

A support system is essential - my mother had a neighbor lady next door (with 5 children) that she could talk to. This neighbor lady saved us more times than I can count - she had a wonderful sense of humor and her ability to help us all laugh at the chaotic lifestyle in such a large household was a sanity saver.

[Taphophilia]

I'm a single mom and I can tell you that it's not a piece of cake. I'm also an only child, so I have no family or support system. If I had any idea what it was like having to parent a teenager, I highly doubt my kids would exist, but as OM has pointed out to me, it will get better. The oldest one, I had to send to her father, and that has turned into an ugly mess. Some people have no right to be parents, and I am quite thankful that I raised her without his involvement. (OM, she is becoming a mature and centered person with a great head on her sholders. I'm very proud of the person she is.)

 

When they were little and I was a single mom, it was hard. Although, they were at the sitters when I was at work and I always knew where they were and what they were doing. I tried to spend as much time with them as I could connecting to them in a personal way. I didn't have a lot of money, so I would take them places, like to parks for a picnic and sometimes drive out of town to some out of the way place on the weekends and spend the night in some mom and pop motel. My kids have memories. If I would have bought them things with the money I used to spend time with them, the things would have been long lost and forgotten by now. The memories they will have forever.

 

When they get older and they are too old for a sitter, they still freaking need one. As hard as it was when they were little, it's so much harder now that they are older, especially when I am the only parent they have.

 

I have to say that you have to decide what is important and what isn't. If you get stressed over little bullshit things than what are you going to be like when a major crisis arrises. Getting stressed out is one thing, we are human and can only take so much, but hitting the kids only makes things worse. When I'm that stressed I remove myself from the situation, clear my head, and than go back and deal with them with a level head.

 

You have to roll with the punches and hope that everything will turn out all right. If you don't than you will be screaming basketcase who no one will have any respect for.

[Open_Minded]

Saw this thread in Rants and Replies.... it's quite applicable to this thread. So just putting a link here...

 

Christian Group (nz) In 'trouble' Over Smacking Manual - "written For The Christian Audience"

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=198500

 

Row over Christian smacking manual

19 July 2006

By ANNA CHALMERS and MATTHEW TORBIT

 

A Christian group urging parents to smack their children, using discipline sessions lasting up to 15 minutes, has been accused of promoting what amounts to child abuse.

 

Family Integrity has produced a controversial eight-page booklet on how to use physical punishment under the present law.

 

Parents are told that smacking can be a "10-to-15-minute process" and that if a child reacts angrily, such as by slamming doors or "pouting", they should be smacked again.

 

"Smacking is meant to drive the foolishness, the sinful manifestations, out of the child's personality so that they do not become permanent fixtures," it says.

 

Smacking is justified because children younger than age eight "do not think straight" and lack a developed sense of fair play and duty.

 

The Family Integrity booklet, written by Craig Smith, says the Bible and section 59 of the Crimes Act allow parents to use reasonable force to discipline their children.

 

Family Integrity says it is an informal group of families and individuals independent of any political party or church. The group believes "it is right and wise to bring our children up with loving corporal correction" and is opposed to "unjustifiable government interference" in family life.

 

Children's Commissioner Cindy Kiro said Family Integrity's suggestion of a 10-15-minute discipline session was "completely off the wall".

 

"The idea that children are sinful and that they need to be beaten in order to be moral beings is fundamentally wrong."

 

Barnardos chief executive Murray Edridge said the discipline guidelines were tantamount to child abuse.

 

"I'm just appalled to read the stuff they are advocating, and the scary thing is people might believe them, and that's a very dangerous place for society to be in."

 

Mr Smith said last night the brochure was written for a Christian audience and outlined the biblical philosophy of child punishment. Many Christians did not want to see smacking banned as that would take away parental authority, but he conceded the brochure would appear as "total nonsense" to non-Christians.

 

Sue Bradford is promoting a bill to repeal section 59 and a parliamentary select committee is hearing submissions.

 

Family Integrity is one of several Christian organisations bankrolling a visit by a Swedish lawyer who will argue against removing parents' rights to smack.

 

Ruby Harrold-Claeson, who arrives in Auckland today, claims Swedish children have been out of control since smacking was legally removed nearly 50 years ago. She will appear before the justice and electoral select committee next week and is expected to outline 50 cases of Swedish parents who have been "unfairly" prosecuted by police.

 

The Swedish law change had "ruined" families and children, she said. "(Children) are incredibly badly behaved. They have no discipline at home and no discipline in schools. I have seen a child kick his father repeatedly and all that man could say was, `You shouldn't do that'."

 

Save the Children executive director John Bowis said Ms Harrold-Claeson was disseminating "outright misinformation". "Over a long period of time there is no question there has been a significant reduction in punishment and abuse (in Sweden)."

 

Paediatricians called for the repeal of section 59 last week, saying family violence – particularly violence toward children – was endemic in New Zealand.

 

Section 59 has been used successfully in court to defend cases in which parents have used items such as a bamboo cane and a riding crop on children

.

 

(Sigh)

[Fweethawt]

Warning on literal reading of Bible

21 July 2006

By ANNA CHALMERS

 

More church groups have condemned a Christian brochure advocating smacking, with one warning of the dangers of literal interpretation of the Bible.

 

At a parliamentary select committee hearing yesterday into the repeal of section 59 of the Crimes Act, submitters expressed concern that the Family Integrity group had used the Bible to justify its views.

 

Literal interpretation of Scriptures was "very dangerous", Sister Marcellin (Marcia Wilson), of the Sisters of Mercy, said. "It could see us stoning people for adultery, requiring compulsory circumcision of boys and extracting an eyeball for an eyeball."

 

Family Integrity's booklet says smacking drives the "foolishness" and "sinful manifestations" out of the child. Discipline sessions should last up to 15 minutes, it says.

 

The Sisters of Mercy supported repealing section 59, which gives parents the right to use reasonable force against their child, Sister Marcellin said.

 

The Churches' Agency on Social Issues, Quakers and Wesley Community Action also supported repealing the law.

 

A number of individual submitters, including some who claimed physical abuse by their own parents, did not support the bill's repeal.

 

Upper Hutt mother Rhonda Diprose said a law change would make it tougher to be a parent. "I don't want to be in a country where I'm too scared to discipline my child if I think that's appropriate action."

 

FROM HERE

[Open_Minded]

Bump.... Bump.... Bump.....

 

Chris - How ya doing, buddy....

 

How's that little son of yours?????? I sincerely hope you've not used a switch or rod on his bare little bottom yet. I think about hiim quite often.....

 

Did you actually think you could come back to Ex-C and not have this thread bumped back to the top for discussion?

[xild]

Chris, if you don't hear another word about how hurt you're going to make your little child, how messed up and mentally ill, you might want to think about your child as an adult, sexually acting out in nightclubs dedicated to spanking, where spanking is a theme and adults play act--publicly--in outrageous bars for "wicked little boys and girls" all night long. (See, these many adults like to be called "wicked and bad" because then they get to get spanked and spanking is a GOOD thing, now, as an adult, it feels good...) These "dens of iniquity" are all over the place. You don't have to look long to find one. There are one or two in every city. If you want, I can post the links to show you...

 

In these places voyeurs and exhibitionists meet each others' needs as dominants and submissives. Is this what you want your child to grow up to do? Because this, no doubt is what will happen. If he doesn't actually act it out he will likely fantasize about it with his partner--or worse, with some paid person--as you yourself may already know, Father Chris. (Not an accusation of using prostitutes, but of understanding the spanking fascination, perhaps?)

 

This happens to quite a few people who were raised with corporal punishment. See, Chris, we're starting to understand the human psyche, human sexuality, and there's a reason we shouldn't use corporal punishment, at all. It's not necessary, for one thing. Then there's just this ... other thing...

 

It amazes me we are still doing this, in so many states in the US, and in so many countries of the world, when we damn well KNOW it's bad for people on such a significant level, and in so many ways. In ways it is not bad, there are other disciplinary methods that are equally effective, so it just makes no sense at all to employ corporal punishment, ever, for any reason at all. (I think I said that already...).

 

One of the reasons these adults who are into spanking are acting out is that mommy and daddy paddled their bottoms--and even if they made it hurt really really bad--it became an actual sexual sensation--at some level, because the brain sometimes can't make the differentiation--then afterwards mommy or daddy did or did not cuddle and hug them and tell them I love you. Even if it didn't feel good at the time, in retrospect, the memory of it, it feels good NOW, as an adult.

 

It doesn't appear to be a very godly form of punishment, when you consider it this way, does it? And so do you see how this might negatively impact on a child's developing mind and stay with him on into his adulthood? How it works on the minds of girls happens one way and how it works on the minds of boys happens another. How it works on the bodies of girls and boys is similar but a little different, please read the info below and get whatever you can find on this subject and read up before you start wielding your power over your innocent children and acting, essentially, as a sexual sadist.

 

But the key to not allowing any of this to happen is simple: just don't do it. Let your children grow up with a healthy mind free of twisted sexual freakiness. Let them be--don't even go there. Consider that when you do a search on spanking on the Internet, you get more than just corporal punishment listings and you get lots of them. Sexual spanking is a real sub-culture and everyone in that sub-culture will tell you they were spanked as children by parents who loved them.

 

Now personally, I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with people who play with spanking in the bedroom, or even in nightclubs, but I bet you do, Chris, and I bet you don't want your child ending up doing this type of thing. And I will tell you, there are MANY people who do this secretly, and lots of Fundi Christians--more than you can imagine: spanking and moving on up into the higher adrenaline rushes of BDSM and on and on. So, with that in mind, you might want to avoid spanking or any type of physical punishment. Stick to time outs; they really do work, and, since they do, is there really any reason to use any other form of discipline?

 

We don't kill those who work on the Sabbath, we don't DO all the things the Bible commands; so we don't HAVE to use a rod on children just because the Bible says to, right? If we did everything the Bible said, we'd have to kill more than 99 percent of the population just on the working-on-the-Sabbath alone, not to mention all the other crap we could go on and on about. Why focus on this one spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child thing when it's been documented that so many other child rearing techniques work so much better than physical punishment? Spanking, actually, seems to "spoil" the child. When something like spanking comes into the bedroom and HAS to be part of the sex act then there is a problem. It's fine if people choose to include playful things in their repertoir but many people become slaves to these types of behaviors and can't perform outside of them. When this happens it's more of a fetish and that is pretty sad, in my opinion. Don't let something like this even threaten your child. And your spanking him actually actually does threaten him, in this manner, believe it or not.

 

 

 

I need to do some more hunting to find articles specific to my point above, but below are some articles on why else not to spank children.

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn...context/archive

 

Here is an interesting link of a "spanko" talking about how they got the way they are. Weird terminology but very informative nonetheless.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/209127/thre...asure+from+Pain

[Open_Minded]

<snip>

 

Thanks xild:

 

I checked Chris' profile. It seems he was lurking around yesterday at 10:57 AM. But.... he didn't stop in here to answer this thread.

 

It boggles my mind that he thinks he can come back after all these months and assume we'll forget. I won't forget. If I see him onboard - I'll continue to bump this thread up. And I appreciate that others are willing to hold him accountable as well. I appreciate your willingness to address this issue and post those links.

 

Again - thank you:

[xild]

Well, I think it's awesome that you are even trying with this person, Open Minded, and I'm sure he doesn't even realize the gift it is, although he would be the first to employ "tough love."

 

At least you know he is reading, if not to just see if someone else might be defending his right to terrorize a child. And I've seen none of that throughout. They spank, these Christians, but they know it is wrong.

 

In the church I grew up in, I've seen caregivers spank little toddlers in the nursery. These babies couldn't even talk, didn't even know why some crazed adult was pounding on their diaper, but it did make them cry mightily... I tried so many times to get the authorities involved. If only I could get ONE person from inside to testify, they would take them on and prosecute for child abuse. Being me, there was simply no way I could make my way back inside, even as a spy, even though I've gone inside other cults as a spy. To be honest, the fundamentalist Church would've kicked my mental butt--I just couldn't hack the thought of it again. I would think about it now, some 25 years later, but I am halfway across the country at this time. In any event, I am sure they are still spanking toddlers.

[Open_Minded]

At least you know he is reading, if not to just see if someone else might be defending his right to terrorize a child. And I've seen none of that throughout. They spank, these Christians, but they know it is wrong.

How right you are. They know it is wrong - or they'd be open and honest about their disciplinary practices. I'll bet Chris doesn't tell his neighbors or co-workers he's willing to use a switch or paddle on his little boy. The only way he'd talk to anyone about this is if he knew in advance that the person feels the same way he does. At church he has people telling him it's o.k., so he can rationalize his actions.

 

But, deep down, he knows if he told his friends, neighbors, co-workers that some of them would respond the same way we have in this thread. And he doesn't want to be confronted because he can't defend his actions. Your right - he knows it's wrong. I just hope he listens to what he knows when he goes to use a paddle, or switch (or anything else) on his little boy.

 

In the church I grew up in, I've seen caregivers spank little toddlers in the nursery. These babies couldn't even talk, didn't even know why some crazed adult was pounding on their diaper, but it did make them cry mightily... I tried so many times to get the authorities involved. If only I could get ONE person from inside to testify, they would take them on and prosecute for child abuse. Being me, there was simply no way I could make my way back inside, even as a spy, even though I've gone inside other cults as a spy. To be honest, the fundamentalist Church would've kicked my mental butt--I just couldn't hack the thought of it again. I would think about it now, some 25 years later, but I am halfway across the country at this time. In any event, I am sure they are still spanking toddlers.

I'm sorry you had to endure that as a child xild. It seems as if you've freed yourself from it - for this I am happy.

[Casey]

I have been back to my old school twice. I got beastly drunk the first time I went back for a reunion, don't think I sobered up for two-three days after. Second time I went back was with a cousin of mine who is still a believing catholic; I gave that superstition away years ago. But there were still areas that sent chills through me just remembering various things that had happened. Two little rooms still exist there and both still gave me the creeps.

 

I am not expecting any reply from Chris either. Pigs don't usually fly Still it's amazing that christians still go for this kind of child-raising, despite everything.

Casey