Remind me again of the reasons behind "absolute right and wrong" questions

[Guest end3]

Each of you would wish me to explain to your satisfaction the rationale behind the decisions.  I can't do that.  Again, cutting the conversation short, if you knew the end, then you understand the necessary mechanisms to get there....maybe. 

 

And maybe it's the absolute definition as y'all say that is throwing us off.  

 

Let me ask you this...is there an example where science calculates and absolute, but our observations don't measure that absolute?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Is there an absolute that god gave that he did not break?  Answer that and we'll talk about science.  Quid Pro Quo, Clarice.

[Guest end3]

49 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Is there an absolute that god gave that he did not break?  Answer that and we'll talk about science.  Quid Pro Quo, Clarice.

 

A thou shall not?  Stealing?  I don't remember God stealing.

 

[Guest]

How about sanctioning the looting and plundering that the Israelites did in the OT? Not stealing?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

You wouldn't consider impregnating another man's wife a form of theft?  god certainly did when King David did it.  Changed his mind when he laid eyes on Mary, though, didn't he?

 

Try again.

[bornagainathiest]

6 hours ago, end3 said:

Each of you would wish me to explain to your satisfaction the rationale behind the decisions.  I can't do that.  Again, cutting the conversation short, if you knew the end, then you understand the necessary mechanisms to get there....maybe. 

 

And maybe it's the absolute definition as y'all say that is throwing us off.  

 

Let me ask you this...is there an example where science calculates and absolute, but our observations don't measure that absolute?

 

Not me, End.  

 

I'm asking who 'us' is, when you say it was just God the Father, in Eden.

 

Genesis 1 : 26

 

²⁶ Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,^[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

 

Genesis 3 : 22

 

²² And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

 

Who is 'us' ..?

 

Please answer.

[★ Citsonga ★]

14 hours ago, end3 said:

Oh come on, this conversation is a good one. 

 

Doesn't this really speak of an absolute as you have described it?  and subsequent Grace? 

 

So, my friend, just one little question here: Would you say that slaughtering little children is morally upright?

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

16 minutes ago, Citsonga said:

 

So, my friend, just one little question here: Would you say that slaughtering little children is morally upright?

 

 

Why, yes.  Yes he would.

 

[LogicalFallacy]

9 hours ago, bornagainathiest said:

 

There were only four persons in Eden - God, Adam, Eve and the serpent (Satan).

 

A note here, in the original the serpent was not equated with Satan - that is a later interpretation. Even in the book of Job Satan is seen as the tempter of god, not his great adversary as he becomes in Revelation. 

 

Apart from that the point stands.

 

 

Posted 8 hours ago · Report post End3

"Each of you would wish me to explain to your satisfaction the rationale behind the decisions. "

 

No no, you are claiming that there is an absolute morality - at least that's what I've taken from your posts.

 

If this is the case we'd like you to demonstrate where there has been an absolute morality.

 

The closest I can come in the Bible to an absolute is Homosexuality is a sin. That is clear in both old and new testaments. Do you think this is a moral absolute? 

 

 

[Guest end3]

2 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

A note here, in the original the serpent was not equated with Satan - that is a later interpretation. Even in the book of Job Satan is seen as the tempter of god, not his great adversary as he becomes in Revelation. 

 

Apart from that the point stands.

 

 

Posted 8 hours ago · Report post End3

"Each of you would wish me to explain to your satisfaction the rationale behind the decisions. "

 

No no, you are claiming that there is an absolute morality - at least that's what I've taken from your posts.

 

If this is the case we'd like you to demonstrate where there has been an absolute morality.

 

The closest I can come in the Bible to an absolute is Homosexuality is a sin. That is clear in both old and new testaments. Do you think this is a moral absolute? 

 

 

The concept is this:  God holds an absolute morality in Heaven.  Outside of Heaven, this absolute morality is subject to Grace until such time that it isn't.  Could God choose to remove immorality/sin at given times?  I would think.  Would that be immoral? No, but perhaps, depending on our field of view.  We don't even give people Grace all the time....i.e. the death penalty.

[Guest end3]

3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Why, yes.  Yes he would.

 

I thought we already talked about generational stuff.  Wouldn't you have to eradicate in order that something  be absolute?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Is love an absolute?  Does it require eradication?

[Guest end3]

8 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Is love an absolute?  Does it require eradication?

I would think the agape version is. 

 

Good question...relative to the scope again, but if we labeled absolute love as "perfect" and desirable, then anything that contaminated perfect would not be absolute and would be out of the set of perfect.  I guess family, genus, species is a similar analogy. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

So, then, if "perfect" love is an absolute and does not require eradication, why did god command genocide?  Is god not love?  Or is he simply not perfect?

 

Again we find another god-given absolute, which god, himself, failed to live up to.

[Guest end3]

 

So, then, if "perfect" love is an absolute and does not require eradication, why did god command genocide?  Is god not love?  Or is he simply not perfect?

 

Again we find another god-given absolute, which god, himself, failed to live up to.

It is what it is.  He returned or was correcting humanities variation from  perfect.  Initially he kicked them out of the perfect environment.  What's your point.

 

I don't see this as violating "perfect" love.  Again, remember any sin per His judgment is not "perfect' or absolute.  And here we go down the free will debate again.  Doh.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

You're missing the point somewhat, or ignoring it.  Either way, I'm willing to play along.

 

Do you contend that Adam and Eve were created "perfect"?  Tread carefully.

[LogicalFallacy]

6 hours ago, end3 said:

The concept is this:  God holds an absolute morality in Heaven.  Outside of Heaven, this absolute morality is subject to Grace until such time that it isn't.  Could God choose to remove immorality/sin at given times?  I would think.  Would that be immoral? No, but perhaps, depending on our field of view.  We don't even give people Grace all the time....i.e. the death penalty.

 

A person lives a good life, helps others, is honest, has committed no crime etc. The only thing you could mark against said person using bible rules is that the person doesn't believe in god. Based on the evidence the person thinks its all a load of rubbish made up by humans.

 

According to the bible this person goes to hell forever... along with Hitler, Stalin and other such 'wonderful' folks.

 

Where is grace here?

 

"God holds an absolute morality in Heaven."

 

And you know this how?

[bornagainathiest]

12 hours ago, bornagainathiest said:

 

Not me, End.  

 

I'm asking who 'us' is, when you say it was just God the Father, in Eden.

 

Genesis 1 : 26

 

²⁶ Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,^[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

 

Genesis 3 : 22

 

²² And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

 

Who is 'us' ..?

 

Please answer.

 

Please answer, End.

[Guest end3]

38 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

A person lives a good life, helps others, is honest, has committed no crime etc. The only thing you could mark against said person using bible rules is that the person doesn't believe in god. Based on the evidence the person thinks its all a load of rubbish made up by humans.

 

According to the bible this person goes to hell forever... along with Hitler, Stalin and other such 'wonderful' folks.

 

Where is grace here?

 

"God holds an absolute morality in Heaven."

 

And you know this how?

Key word LF was "concept".   I'm just speculating how it works.  I assume that's why God sent Jesus to identify with the struggle.  Thx.

[Guest end3]

3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

You're missing the point somewhat, or ignoring it.  Either way, I'm willing to play along.

 

Do you contend that Adam and Eve were created "perfect"?  Tread carefully.

I'm trying to make a point and feel as though you are missing somewhat, but I appreciate the response. 

 

I don't know specifically what made in his image means.  Kind of like asking if Jesus was fully God.  One thought that crossed my mind was "absolute free will", I.e. perfect free will without initial influence.  Sorry, that's a little out there, but...

[bornagainathiest]

You're online and answering the Prof and LF, End.

 

Please answer me.

 

Thank you.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Not me, End.  

 

I'm asking who 'us' is, when you say it was just God the Father, in Eden.

 

Genesis 1 : 26

 

²⁶ Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,^[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

 

Genesis 3 : 22

 

²² And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

 

Who is 'us' ..?

 

Please answer.

 

Please answer, End.

 

 

[Guest end3]

4 minutes ago, bornagainathiest said:

You're online and answering the Prof and LF, End.

 

Please answer me.

 

Thank you.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Not me, End.  

 

I'm asking who 'us' is, when you say it was just God the Father, in Eden.

 

Genesis 1 : 26

 

²⁶ Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,^[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

 

Genesis 3 : 22

 

²² And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

 

Who is 'us' ..?

 

Please answer.

 

Please answer, End.

 

 

The consensus BAA was the Godhead....Father, Son, and Spirit.  I'm gonna have to go with the consensus.

[LogicalFallacy]

14 minutes ago, end3 said:

Key word LF was "concept".   I'm just speculating how it works.  I assume that's why God sent Jesus to identify with the struggle.  Thx.

 

What is it with Christians talking about absolutes then resolve to saying they are just speculating and assuming stuff?

 

Just admit it End3, you are pretending to know what you don't know. You have no idea if there is an absolute morality.

 

If you want to speculate then why don't we speculate that your God is actually one evil guy, who has a narcissistic disorder, and is psychopathic to boot, but also seems to suffer from a split personality?

 

How can we tell? By reading the bible which is our only real reference to the character of this God. Your opinion and personal experience doesn't count on the character of God because its different from everyone else. And short of God doing a bulk reveal all we have to go on is the changing character of the God of the bible. He says I am God and I change not. Esau have I hated (before he was born... #grace), love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

You have no absolute End3, or at least nothing you have demonstrated shows absolute.

[bornagainathiest]

8 minutes ago, end3 said:

The consensus BAA was the Godhead....Father, Son, and Spirit.  I'm gonna have to go with the consensus.

 

But you said that it was God the Father who was in Eden.

 

So, now you're agreeing with the Prof, when he said?

 

"Therefore:  Jesus planted the garden of Eden, created Adam and Eve, the tree of knowledge, and the Serpent."

[Guest end3]

2 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

What is it with Christians talking about absolutes then resolve to saying they are just speculating and assuming stuff?

 

Just admit it End3, you are pretending to know what you don't know. You have no idea if there is an absolute morality.

 

If you want to speculate then why don't we speculate that your God is actually one evil guy, who has a narcissistic disorder, and is psychopathic to boot, but also seems to suffer from a split personality?

 

How can we tell? By reading the bible which is our only real reference to the character of this God. Your opinion and personal experience doesn't count on the character of God because its different from everyone else. And short of God doing a bulk reveal all we have to go on is the changing character of the God of the bible. He says I am God and I change not. Esau have I hated (before he was born... #grace), love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

You have no absolute End3, or at least nothing you have demonstrated shows absolute.

Why does God kick them out, why atonement?  If there are rules, then this pretty much dictates an absolute.  Commands, not suggestions. 

 

And if we are big on pretending and knowing, non-believers don't pretend to have a more complete field of vision than they do?