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Jon

please answer ex-christians!!!

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The bible says "it proves they were not of us,becauce if they were they would if stayed"

The fact you turned away fron God;does this not prove you never were true christians in the first place?

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I didn't turn away from god. After much study and research, I realized the christian god did not exist . The silly first book of the bible, Genesis... completely convinced me that the whole thing was fraudulent.

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ok,but how can research do this,after all,God operates beyond the mind,we cannot research ourselfs out of a God we cannot see?

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Just now, Jon said:

ok,but how can research do this,after all,God operates beyond the mind,we cannot research ourselfs out of a God we cannot see?

If god is god and it created the whole universe, 'it' should be able to show 'itself' to 'its' creation. It should be able to prove itself. We should not have to live by faith. Or have 'faith' in the words written by ancient, tribal man..

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2 minutes ago, Jon said:

ok,but how can research do this,after all,God operates beyond the mind,we cannot research ourselfs out of a God we cannot see?

 

So says the myth.  Rational thinking and associated research does not assume the myth is true in the first place.

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Margee,you know what romans 1:20 says?

Also God is spirit,no-one sees a spirit!!!

What do you mean,when you say God must prove himself?

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13 minutes ago, Jon said:

Margee,you know what romans 1:20 says?

Also God is spirit,no-one sees a spirit!!!

What do you mean,when you say God must prove himself?

Just as she stated. This so called god needs to prove its existence. As an all-powerful being, he has that ability to show up to anyone who asks. The idea of blind faith and "free will" is a fool's folly, when there is no free will involved when a supposed eternal afterlife of torment awaits. If not, by logical conclusion from lack of evidence to prove its existence, it does not exist. There is no more evidence for this god's exists as there is for Zeus, Poseidon, Odin, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Bible verses do not count as evidence as a reference starting point.

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Nobody knows what hell will be like.

Look christians cant prove God exists.But then athiests cannot disprove Gods existence either!

Both parties should supply evidence pointing toward God or toward a world without a God

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5 minutes ago, Jon said:

Nobody knows what hell will be like.

Look christians cant prove God exists.But then athiests cannot disprove Gods existence either!

Both parties should supply evidence pointing toward God or toward a world without a God

That is simply wrong. If one makes a positive assertion that some invisible, undetectable being exists, that a god, demon, fairy or alien shape shifter exists then evidence must be provided for such an extraordinary claim. There is no reason to believe such a thing when it's presented without evidence to back it up. We cannot possibly disprove the existence of gnomes, leprechauns and everything else people can and do dream up.

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17 minutes ago, Jon said:

Nobody knows what hell will be like.

Look christians cant prove God exists.But then athiests cannot disprove Gods existence either!

Both parties should supply evidence pointing toward God or toward a world without a God

 

I am not asserting your particular God does not exist.  It is you who are asserting it does exist.  Standard rational discourse rules place the burden of proof of you, the one making the positive claim.  If you do not agree with this adult rule of debate, please say so now.

 

No one is asking you to "prove" the existence of your particular God or associated religious dogma.  What is required, however, it relevant evidence supporting your claim.  Got any?

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41 minutes ago, Jon said:

Nobody knows what hell will be like.

Look christians cant prove God exists.But then athiests cannot disprove Gods existence either!

Both parties should supply evidence pointing toward God or toward a world without a God

 

1. Define "God".  Even within the Xian belief systems, there are many definitions.  It's the same with the human concept of hell.

 

2.  The Xian is the one making the claim that a god exists, therefore the Xian needs to show this existance.  Once you define your concept, maybe you can present evidence that your concept exists- other than the Bible.  At the very least, we'll all be on the same page in which to discuss your concept.

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"does this not prove", no you quoted a scripture that is simply wrong, scriptures don't prove anything, they simply assert things as being true.

 

Keep in mind the "faith" of Abraham was in a god that allegedly spoke directly to him. That is a far different thing than reading mythical stories and deciding that they are all true. I say mythical because we know, for example, that the Tower of Babel is a myth because it is based on the idea that someone could build a structure that could reach the "firmament", a dividing barrier between Earth and Heaven (a primitive concept where Heaven was above the Earth, which is also reflected in Jesus ascending up into the clouds). We build skyscrapers that are far taller than anything they could have built back in the day. Mountains are larger than any structure we have built. Airplanes go above the clouds regularly and don't bump into a firmament. Spacecraft go on for millions of miles in any direction from Earth. There is no "up" in space. We know that we are just a tiny planet, a dust spec in the vast cosmos. Stars are not tiny lights stuck in the firmament that can break away and guide wise men to a house.

 

We know that the Exodus didn't happen. The Jews were never captive in Egypt and didn't leave en masse through the desert. Not only are there no archaeological remnants of such a trip, there are no records at all of such an exodus by any of the other peoples in that region. Even if Egypt didn't record it, the others certainly would have noted the plagues and the mass exit, but they didn't. Then there are the impossible logistics of feeding and watering the animals they said they took. 

 

On and on the Bible asserts things as true that are demonstrably false. The many promises of Jesus about "ask and ye shall receive" "Ask anything in my name and it shall be given to you" are shown false daily. Believers excuse this as god "having a better plan" that he refuses to communicate to them. "Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven." Again, shown to be false repeatedly and daily. Some churches now even refuse to ask for healing and have decided that god just doesn't do that anymore since we have the bible, which means that this god is essentially like a dead idol, non-communicative and non-active.

 

We are ex-believers. I spent 30 years ardently following and loving Jesus, memorizing large chunks of scripture, praying and fasting, seeking the presence of God. Now I do not, after discovering that the scriptures were not true, and that I had believed in lies for 30 years.
 

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Let's ignore for the context of this thread that the christian god is logically impossible, claimed to have traits and characteristics that are mutually exclusive from the start.

 

Could that god then exist? Sure it could. But why would I assume that it does just because it's possible?

 

It's just as possible that allah, zeus, Odin, lugh, amaterasu, quetzalcoatl, even great cthulhu exist, and same goes for countless more the names of which don't occur to me right now. Does that mean we have to assume they are all real?

 

As has been said already in this thread, the burden of proof is on the one making the bold claim. Ball's in your court sir, let us see your best shot.

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9 hours ago, Jon said:

The bible says "it proves they were not of us,becauce if they were they would if stayed"

The fact you turned away fron God;does this not prove you never were true christians in the first place?

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/no-true-scotsman/

 

Have a nice day,

TRP

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9 hours ago, Jon said:

The bible says "it proves they were not of us,becauce if they were they would if stayed"

The fact you turned away fron God;does this not prove you never were true christians in the first place?

 

     The above mentality you have just displayed is the biggest lie Christians ever convinced themselves of, just so they don't doubt God's power to save. I was raised to believe in the baptist church and may have even said this exact thing until I saw some men and women I had felt the spirit pour off of fall away from god. This and my own experiences are the reason I quickly stopped believing and preaching the theory of once saved always saved. I was one of his ministers for over 10 years. Served him for twelve. Before leaving the church in a state of confusion. If anyone was ever biblically saved then then I was one of them. 

        You should hold your tongue when it comes to making a judgement on what lead us to the point we are in now. You say that Athiests can't disprove "God" and I will loosely agree with your statement. But Science and Archeology both have certainly disproved the biblical God which you worship. In the bible it states how God will try us in the fire yet it also tells us to have faith in him. So that we don't question. The reason is because when you finally do start trying him you find that his "biblical" exploits, his "biblical" origins, and even his own name are all just lies. 

         I challenge you to do this. Jesus call out to his God on the cross. 

 

Matthew 27:46

Around the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, saying "Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Mark 15:34

And at the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, "Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

 

Jesus was calling out to his God who was named EL. My challenge is that you find out who he is talking to. research the god EL. When you look that up you will start to see where the bible started. 

        Also I challenge you to find proof of the biggest event in Jewish theology. The exodus. Go ahead. Your gonna have to find more than a couple of wagon wheels in the red see too. There were two million people in the desert for 40 years. Go ahead and look at all the evidence that archeologists have been able to dig up. Two million people can't do anything without leaving a mark. I'm sure you will find that study interesting.

        Doing a little study on biblical forgery my be good for you aswell. Because you may be surprised at what books they have found to be forged just to advance some man's beliefs from 1500 years ago.

        You seem like a fairly young christian and while I may seem a little rough around the edges. If you can see what we see now then you will be saving yourself a lifetime of disappointment because you found out sooner than most of us here. We can probably all testify of things we did and decisions we made to suite our religious mentality that if we could go back we would probably have done things differently.

        My advice to you is to always question. Because that bible you love so much now can be interpreted a 1000 different ways. And when it is being used by the wrong hands it will do more harm than Good. You think you have seen the light but in reality you just confined yourself inside the bounds set by men who lived hundreds and thousands of years ago. 

 

Best regards,

Dark Bishop

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11 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Jesus was calling out to his God who was named EL. My challenge is that you find out who he is talking to. research the god EL. When you look that up you will start to see where the bible started. 

       

Dark Bishop, it is so nice to meet someone else in the world who knows a little bit about the god, El.  Ancient Mesopotamian history is fascinating to say the least. :)

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15 minutes ago, Shinobi said:

Dark Bishop, it is so nice to meet someone else in the world who knows a little bit about the god, El.  Ancient Mesopotamian history is fascinating to say the least. :)

It really has been fascinating once I got past the shock of it lol. Ole El and his pantheon kinda did the whole bible in for me. So I guess in a way the God of Christ did open my eyes lol.

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@JonI'm sorry, I'm allergic to logical fallacies so couldn't answer your first post ;)

 

12 hours ago, Jon said:

Nobody knows what hell will be like.

Look christians cant prove God exists.But then athiests cannot disprove Gods existence either!

Both parties should supply evidence pointing toward God or toward a world without a God

 

 

Certainly we cannot disprove a negative.

 

Please disprove the immaterial invisible pink unicorn sitting on my shoulder. Warning I may make stuff up on the fly that shows you haven't disproved her existence. Yes, she is a she, and her name is butterfly. Prove me wrong.

 

If you are truly interested in evidence against God, please read this entire thread, and watch every video link. Feel free to join in the conversation.

 

To further Darkbishops post, here is an evolution of the christian God:

 

El (Canaanite God)

Elyon (God most high)

Elohim (Plural for Gods) And Elohim said, let US create man in OUR image after OUR likeness

El Shaddai

Yahweh (Aka Jehovah) 

Jesus

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

 

To further Darkbishops post, here is an evolution of the christian God:

 

El (Canaanite God)

Elyon (God most high)

Elohim (Plural for Gods) And Elohim said, let US create man in OUR image after OUR likeness

El Shaddai

Yahweh (Aka Jehovah) 

Jesus

 

 

 

 

Thanks logical ? it may also be good to separate yahweh into two categories.

 

Ancient Yahweh (the son of the most high God El)

Modern Yahweh and EL (which are considered two names for the one and only God)

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On 3/25/2017 at 4:10 PM, Jon said:

The bible says "it proves they were not of us,becauce if they were they would if stayed"

The fact you turned away fron God;does this not prove you never were true christians in the first place?

 

Let's stick with your topic, Jon. 

 

This is called the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. We had a good laugh toying around with this fallacy among ourselves a couple weeks ago. So now here you are giving readers a real time perspective of a christian resorting to the very common (and well known to us) No True Scotsman fallacy. 

 

To begin, I'll point out that if you want the bible credited with this assertion then you automatically put the bible in the position of making a logical fallacy. And I have to wonder why the writer(s) of the that verse couldn't do better than to make a logically fallacious assertion? 

 

The fact you turned away fron God;does this not prove you never were true christians in the first place?

 

Is the answer not clear yet? 

 

What does it mean to make a logically fallacious assertion or to pose one in the form of a question? 

 

 

 

 

 

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Admit it, Jon, even if only to yourself:  The existence of ex-Christians scares you.  If we could lose faith, so can you.  Your salvation, and your hopes for eternal life, could simply rot away, or they could vanish in the blink of an eye.  For all you and we really know, or ever could know, you're not a True Christian™ either.

 

Arguing with us will not save you, and could well hasten the demise of your beliefs.

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12 minutes ago, Astreja said:

Arguing with us will not save you, and could well hasten the demise of your beliefs.

Hi, Astreja.  What you have said here is the absolute truth.  It reminds me of an old saying I often heard while growing up, "If a person plays with a sleeping dragon long enough, it is bound to wake up."

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1 hour ago, Astreja said:

Admit it, Jon, even if only to yourself:  The existence of ex-Christians scares you.  If we could lose faith, so can you.  Your salvation, and your hopes for eternal life, could simply rot away, or they could vanish in the blink of an eye.  For all you and we really know, or ever could know, you're not a True Christian™ either.

 

Arguing with us will not save you, and could well hasten the demise of your beliefs.

 

Hence the admonitions to stay away from unbelievers, to curtail knowledge, to only seek the lord.

 

Look elsewhere and you might find answers - answers not concordant with your beliefs. I know - what do you think happened to me Jon? I questioned the bible, some weird verses, stuff didn't stack up. That's ok I thought, I'll listen to a biblical archaeology documentary and restore my faith..... hmmm well once you get into biblical archaeology your house of cards comes crashing down. Add some science, some critical thinking, and asking other Christians for answers and you quickly realize why no christian is encourage to seek truth from any other source than the bible. Nothing else backs the bible up.

 

Keep something in mind - we where are not an atheist from birth that is 'attacking' Christianity - we are all ex Christians telling you what we have found out. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Hence the admonitions to stay away from unbelievers, to curtail knowledge, to only seek the lord.

 

Look elsewhere and you might find answers - answers not concordant with your beliefs. I know - what do you think happened to me Jon? I questioned the bible, some weird verses, stuff didn't stack up. That's ok I thought, I'll listen to a biblical archaeology documentary and restore my faith..... hmmm well once you get into biblical archaeology your house of cards comes crashing down. Add some science, some critical thinking, and asking other Christians for answers and you quickly realize why no christian is encourage to seek truth from any other source than the bible. Nothing else backs the bible up.

 

Lol ain't that the damn truth. I'm starting to love biblical archeology. I need to find a subscription so I can stay up to date on everything they find. I never would have believed that the bible could be unraveled so quickly just by doing a lil truth seeking. 

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Jon?

anything?

hello?

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