Forgive them Father, they know not what they do

[Castiel233]

The question of the night is a simple ish one, for passing believers.......

 

Why did Jesus ask God to forgive humans for His Crucifixion, when it was all part of Gods master plan to have Jesus killed to forgive humans....

 

It does not make sense........ 

 

Add to that mix, that Jesus and the Father are one, then Jesus is asking Himself, to forgive the humans He has created, for killing Him, which is what He wanted......

 

It is a strange, sad story that collapses on itself.....

 

Moving onto to Judas, perhaps the saddest character in the Bible.

 

Poor guy is pre selected to betray Jesus, commit suicide and then go to Hell forever, yet Judas's actions ushered in Christianity. Paul was just a late sign up who never met an Earthly Jesus, yet gets to go to Heaven. Judas , let me stress again, acted out Gods will in betraying Jesus and brought forth Christianity and his reward is to be tortured forever......

 

Why was Judas selected for for such a terrible role to be followed by an eternity of hell.......

 

Christian's  answer that "Gods ways are not our ways"........ or they might suggest that Judas choose to betray his master from his own free will.......which is obviously nonsense, as if Judas had not pointed  out Jesus then He wouldn't have been crucified and Christianity would have petered out......

 

The whole lot is ridiculous.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[florduh]

Judas is the true hero of the story. He was absolutely crucial(!) to the story line. No betrayal, no crucifixion, no resurrection, no salvation for mankind.

[Jeff]

I have Ehrmans book on the Book Of Judas that recently came to light. 

Kinda boring read but it's an gnostic gospel and paints Judas in positive light. 

The gnostic texts are just weird to me and helped me see how whack Christianity was even back then. Nutty

 

Best part of Ehrmans book is how the owner of Ferrelgas or some such US company was invested in getting the manuscript and told them to "put it in the freezer" which did incredible damage to the paper when the moisture expanded. 

 

Im going off memory here. I could have dreamed this crap up. I don't know

[L.B.]

Anti-Semitism is the key; "Judas" is the English for the Hebrew "Yahudah", which means "Judah" or "Jew".

 

The New Testicle is full of concepts and verses that make plain the antisemitic slant of the (Gentile) writers.

 

Follow that with the idea that a couple of generations after "Jesus", the literal historical figure, died, along come Gentile leaders to take over the few synagogues in Palestine where the mythical amalgam known as "Jesus Christ" would be taught and brought to the world.

 

Always follow the money, folks... the Middle East, especially Israel, Iran, Iraq, etc - these are the places with the most valuable things to trade; always have been. Whether it was spices and cloth or sea routes, or oil - that's why the "holy land" has been so contested over the centuries. "Jesus" and his religion were (and are) a convenient cover.

 

Notice that "Judah" is the bad guy in the NT, and then notice that there's no acceptable Judaism in the mind of a Christian EXCEPT a "Judaism" that recognizes "Jesus" as Messiah.

 

It's why Christians of certain stripes are so gung-ho for Zionism and a literal Jewish Israeli state. They believe they are "fulfilling prophecy" - too bad they never get around to telling the non-Jesus-friendly Jews that the NT basically promises either the conversion or the extinction of non-believing Jews.

 

Watch every white leader (or at least non-Jewish leader) in the world, and eventually you'll see only two things: Either "let's be friends with Israel so we have an ally in the desert near all the oil" or "Destroy Israel so we can get closer to the oil (or keep it for ourselves).

 

The rich elite always want to control the most valuable resources, and the myth of "Jesus" and his religion have always been a tool for just that.

[MOHO]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

I have Ehrmans book on the Book Of Judas that recently came to light. 

Kinda boring read but it's an gnostic gospel and paints Judas in positive light. 

The gnostic texts are just weird to me and helped me see how whack Christianity was even back then. Nutty

 

Best part of Ehrmans book is how the owner of Ferrelgas or some such US company was invested in getting the manuscript and told them to "put it in the freezer" which did incredible damage to the paper when the moisture expanded. 

 

Im going off memory here. I could have dreamed this crap up. I don't know

 

That's OK, Jeff.

Apparently you can dream stuff up and millions of diluted "truth" seekers, over 2k years, will swear by it. 

[Castiel233]

To stress,

 

Jesus asks His father (Himself) to forgive humans for doing exactly want He wants them to do.

[REBOOT]

That's a cool and telling statement if you're into E.T. interference and massaging of human affairs.

 

Sounds to me like some perceived failed social experiment... or some cult leader's deluded enlightened expression of frustration (a la Heaven's gate). Unfortunately, for all of us, moronic statements like these cascaded into cults leading to unfathomable destruction, intolerance and human cruelty that expresses itself to this day.

 

You would think that a 'higher and holier than thou' being would have perfectly calculated his intervention

[Ellinas]

4 hours ago, Garry said:

To stress,

 

Jesus asks His father (Himself) to forgive humans for doing exactly want He wants them to do.

 

The standard answer of my Christian acquaintances to this type of issue is that the will of god and consequent pre-destination do not over-ride human free will and responsibility (and, hence, guilt).

 

If pressed further, they simply say it's a mystery, or it's something only god can explain, or (worst of all) it is something that only a "spiritual" person can discern.

 

Which is, of course:

1. A way of fending off questions that, if considered for a nanosecond, would expose the bankrupt logic and intellectual dishonesty of the religion; and
2. A sign that the Christian bull has over-imbibed the bran flakes again.