What is still haunting you about Christianity?

[Lost]

I wonder if there are Christian stories, testimonies, your personal or someone's experiences that still kind of come to your mind and make you think again about faith?

 

Of course concept of hell haunts many of us from time to time, but for sure there are things that we still don't know what to think of although we know that science have facts and reliable answers.

 

Stories of people that I can't see clearly only from science perspective are (for example):

 

Teresa Neuman

Anneliese Michel

Howard Storm

Ian McCormack

Elisa Lam

[Geezer]

I am delighted to be able to say no. I have researched the origins & evolution of Christianity & the Bible sufficiently enough to convince me with absolutely no doubt that it is all manmade nonsense aka religious myths. 

[SkepticsApprentice]

Well, let's see...

 

I can remember a couple of times where it certainly seemed that something supernatural was going on, regardless of whether or not the Christian God caused it. Interestingly, none of them involved me directly; they all happened to my mother, who is probably the most 'spiritual' person in my family. 

 

When I was about nine or ten years old, I went with my family on a trip to Argentina. It's been a long time so I don't remember the exact reason why we were there, but during our stay we spent a lot of time around pastors and other spiritual leaders. One of them in particular was especially memorable. This Hispanic pastor (I believe his name was Omar) and a female assistant of sorts met with us for intercessory prayer, largely centered around my younger brother, who has had a laundry list of major food allergies and other health issues since he was born. They told us that our family had some spiritual 'strongholds' or curses in our lives that we would have to defeat by praying specifically for deliverance for about a month. I don't remember exactly if Omar began to pray over all of us, or just my mother, but the end result was that she was on the floor, lying on her back and unable to move. This was attributed to the Holy Spirit, and for a long time I believed that there could be no other explanation for what happened. More recently, I heard of the phenomena (common in Pentecostal circles) called 'being slain in the Spirit,' where, supposedly, a person is knocked down by the Holy Spirit and is temporarily unable to move. Benny Hinn does something like this as well, I believe, although he is almost universally ridiculed as a fraud (which he is). From what I can tell, the mind is a fascinating organ that nevertheless is surprisingly easy to trick. You don't have to have a mental illness to 'see things;' in fact, hallucinations are far more common than most people think. Sometimes even verbal cues or mental suggestion from an outside source aren't necessary for a person to feel as if something spiritual is happening; the person's mind manufactures the conditions necessary for the experience to take place because they believe that God is going to move. 

 

My mother has also experienced visions (at least twice that i know of) which seemed spiritual in nature. Both of them involved bizarre, shadowy octopus-like figures that had their demonic tentacles wrapped around our house and later, our family business, trying to get in and presumably take over for Satan. The weird thing about the second vision was that my mother wasn't alone when she saw this–she and a group of other fellow believers were gathered around a new addition to our business, when both she and another woman named Tricia saw this inky black squid thing sitting on the building in question. To be completely honest, I would love to get a psychological explanation for this phenomena, because as far as I can tell similar incidents are rare or go unreported. For my part, I haven't had much luck finding a 'scientific' explanation for what supposedly happened, although I did find a recorded incident where three sailors simultaneously had a vision of a dead crewmate that turned out to just be a piece of driftwood or something when investigated further. 

 

For me, it was stories like these that kept me from losing faith outright for a long time. I was sure that if things like this could happen with no forthcoming explanation from science, then God must be involved somehow. It was only after I pursued a deeper study into the Bible, the supposed 'Word of God' itself, that I realized how much the ancient texts contradicted with reality (and with each other!). At that point, I could say that even though unexplained phenomena might still be out there, there was only an infinitesimally small chance that the Christian God was involved. I'll admit, I'd love to have an explanation of every bizarre 'supernatural' occurrence known to man, but if there's one thing that I've learned over the course of my (admittedly short) journey it's that we don't know everything. In a way, modern supernatural claims share a similarity with claims of demon possession. Ancient people used to think that demons could possess people, until science discovered that mental illnesses like schizophrenia and epilepsy were the real culprits. Even then, it took centuries before this discovery was actually made. There are still lots of things about the brain that we don't know, so it doesn't exactly make sense to immediately chalk up strange phenomena to a divine source (or, in some cases, a diabolical one). 

 

With that said, I'm not sure if I've heard too much about the names you listed, Lost (although some I might have heard in passing). I might just have to check them out...

[florduh]

All that haunts me is that they are worming their way into government and secular life.

[yunea]

For a long time I couldn't understand how I myself seemed to perform miracles (ETA: Not any huge ones, but really using the "gifts of Spirit" in various ways). I felt tingles and heat buzzing through my body, and words and movements seemed involuntary but just right. 

 

Many people have mentioned tongues as embarrassing, clumsy, fake, something you have to do. Mine came out without any effort whatsoever once it had happened the first time (which also involved me falling from the chair to the floor).

 

Very recently, I have started to carefully examine it. My current best explanation for what I did is a combination:

- Observing people in an unusual way due to a difficult childhood with unpredictable people, trying and trying to predict them or feel their emotions, eventually getting better at it

- Yet being bad at recognising how I actually feel and failing to learn to think of it in words (parents failed at naming my emotions, I am still learning it) so emotions and impulses seem like different kinds of heat and cold in my body, as do other people's (to an extent)

- Really wanting the experience, so eventually I gave it to myself without consciously noticing I did it - my mind is very powerful if I let it do its thing. I later discovered I'm actually a natural at self hypnosis, probably did it already then.

- I can feel my own alters outside me sometimes. I thought I was feeling Jesus. Apparently some alter of mine is able to make me feel like there are thoughts coming into me from outside. Now that I know it's just me again, it's much less mysterious. 

- Perhaps, maybe, maybe tapping into some kind of energy, not of a personal god but some...energy of nature, life, love, I don't know what, but it seems very real. 

 

I'm familiar with Anneliese Michel. What I think happened with her is that she got a severe brain illness, and since she was obsessed with religion to begin with, the imagery from the holy texts became real for her. Kind of like when people have NDE's, if they have a religious experience, it's one they recognise even if they're not currently practising that religion.

 

Though I'll have to study the rest of the cases you listed. Thanks - these things and stories fascinate me very much.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

What I found is that church people have a LOT of stories. Stories that cannot be verified and that they usually heard from someone else touting it as true, simply because it seems to indicate their faith is real. I even had a buddy of mine tell me he saw a Jamaican wizard appear in a bathroom at a Christian conference, and that he rebuked him in the name of Jesus and he disappeared. Believers are full of stories, but are any of them true? Believers used to tell me about how video games would ask kids to sign their souls over to the devil to get to the next round. EEEK! If such a game ever existed, no one could tell me the name.

 

When I deconverted from Christianity, I first spent a year praying, fasting, seeking, trying hard to get real answers to real questions. After a year of silence and mounting evidence that the Bible was not at all historical, I left the faith and haven't looked back. It still has taken years to shake the remnants off and retrain my subconscious to a new way of viewing reality, but life makes a lot more sense now that I don't try to perceive an invisible war with invisible angels and demons. Just simple reality.

[Lost]

6 hours ago, yunea said:

 

Though I'll have to study the rest of the cases you listed. Thanks - these things and stories fascinate me very much.

 

But please yunea don't try to do this in the evening or in the night. Although we all are much more on the rational side, reading and watching disturbing stories during late hours gives some goosebumps.

I still can't get rid of some pictures out of my head.

[Lost]

21 hours ago, Geezer said:

I am delighted to be able to say no. I have researched the origins & evolution of Christianity & the Bible sufficiently enough to convince me with absolutely no doubt that it is all manmade nonsense aka religious myths. 

 

19 hours ago, florduh said:

All that haunts me is that they are worming their way into government and secular life.

 

Geezer and florduh...like always short and rational without any shit   Wish my brain would work that simple, but I've got INFP type of personality. Need to analyze everything deeply.

[Lost]

20 hours ago, SkepticsApprentice said:

 

For me, it was stories like these that kept me from losing faith outright for a long time. I was sure that if things like this could happen with no forthcoming explanation from science, then God must be involved somehow. It was only after I pursued a deeper study into the Bible, the supposed 'Word of God' itself, that I realized how much the ancient texts contradicted with reality (and with each other!). At that point, I could say that even though unexplained phenomena might still be out there, there was only an infinitesimally small chance that the Christian God was involved. I'll admit, I'd love to have an explanation of every bizarre 'supernatural' occurrence known to man, but if there's one thing that I've learned over the course of my (admittedly short) journey it's that we don't know everything. In a way, modern supernatural claims share a similarity with claims of demon possession. Ancient people used to think that demons could possess people, until science discovered that mental illnesses like schizophrenia and epilepsy were the real culprits. Even then, it took centuries before this discovery was actually made. There are still lots of things about the brain that we don't know, so it doesn't exactly make sense to immediately chalk up strange phenomena to a divine source (or, in some cases, a diabolical one). 

 

 

You put it everything in right words. Lots of stories keep many believers one step far from quitting on faith.

[Lost]

4 hours ago, Fuego said:

Believers are full of stories, but are any of them true? .

 

 

Yeah, it's like their personal stories shouldn't be take as evidence, but in the same time there is something about it, that makes many people thinking about faith again.

[Ellinas]

What haunts me?

 

The Christianity of my wife and her family.

 

More accurately, it's what pisses me off.

[Insightful]

To me, a medical professional, the human body appears remarkably organized.  It looks thought out and planned.  Of course there are design flaws - like food passing by our trachea = choking deaths!  But it does work like a fine-tuned machine in many ways.  While my mind can definitely see the step-wise, incremental developments and improvements of our organization from single celled organisms all the way up to primates - and I accept common descent without a doubt -  EMOTIONALLY, and intuitively, however, it screams design to me still.  In fairness, though, that is really only deism or theism haunting me - it would be a big leap from there to Christianity.

 

Besides the illusion of design, I am also struck by the way that some Christians are driven by their faith to seek radical social justice - whether that is through adoption and orphan care or, recently, in an article I read about a man who took a prostitute out to lunch in Malaysia - paid for her food, bought her clothes, listened to her story, and told her that she is worth infinitely more than what she has become.  Wow.  I was blown away.  That inspiration toward radical humanism that some Christians live out certainly haunts me and makes me doubt my rejection of Christianity (at least momentarily).  Of course, I can also see how the Bible advances a sad and terrible view of human worth - killing children, sanctioning sex slavery, rape of captive women, etc.  But modern-day Christianity that has distanced itself from those horrific views on human worth has managed to put together an admirable valuing of each person's worth - and that is attractive.  But the great thing is that I can reject all of the supernatural stuff, reject the OT, and still retain and live out the humanistic portions of Jesus' message.  I think in many ways he was a great humanist - and if we just look at the humanist aspect of his teachings (or what is popularly ascribed to him by the gospel writers), most people would find it inspiring.  

 

 

[Lost]

1 hour ago, Insightful said:

To me, a medical professional, the human body appears remarkably organized.  It looks thought out and planned.  Of course there are design flaws - like food passing by our trachea = choking deaths!  But it does work like a fine-tuned machine in many ways.  While my mind can definitely see the step-wise, incremental developments and improvements of our organization from single celled organisms all the way up to primates - and I accept common descent without a doubt -  EMOTIONALLY, and intuitively, however, it screams design to me still.  In fairness, though, that is really only deism or theism haunting me - it would be a big leap from there to Christianity.

 

Besides the illusion of design, I am also struck by the way that some Christians are driven by their faith to seek radical social justice - whether that is through adoption and orphan care or, recently, in an article I read about a man who took a prostitute out to lunch in Malaysia - paid for her food, bought her clothes, listened to her story, and told her that she is worth infinitely more than what she has become.  Wow.  I was blown away.  That inspiration toward radical humanism that some Christians live out certainly haunts me and makes me doubt my rejection of Christianity (at least momentarily).  Of course, I can also see how the Bible advances a sad and terrible view of human worth - killing children, sanctioning sex slavery, rape of captive women, etc.  But modern-day Christianity that has distanced itself from those horrific views on human worth has managed to put together an admirable valuing of each person's worth - and that is attractive.  But the great thing is that I can reject all of the supernatural stuff, reject the OT, and still retain and live out the humanistic portions of Jesus' message.  I think in many ways he was a great humanist - and if we just look at the humanist aspect of his teachings (or what is popularly ascribed to him by the gospel writers), most people would find it inspiring.  

 

 

 

You are right in all way Insightful  Very deep.

[Geezer]

Religious people do a lot of good things but their motivation is self preservation. I call it collecting brownie points for heaven. If you believe an invisible deity is watching your every action & monitoring your thoughts too, all for the purpose of qualifying you for heaven, then your motives are suspect. 

 

Setting motives aside Christians do a lot of good things for a lot of people, but that has a lot to do with the fact they are well organized. Atheists lack organization on a large scale & that's a problem when it comes to helping others on a large scale. 

 

I think religion is a much bigger problem than a belief in a supernatural deity. 

[Guest]

Good question. I can't say I'm haunted much by Christianity anymore. But I can't seem to ward off the nagging questions about our existence, the nature of consciousness, and the possibility (dare I call it a belief?) that humans will evolve and expand ways of knowing far beyond what science is able to even imagine at this point in time. And I often wonder whether things (like electricity, for example) are ever-present, but it takes eons to discover them (as well as perserverance, a hunch, and a mind open to amazing possibilities). Alas, I digress!

[BlindersRemoved]

I deconverted  seven years ago and there are two things that haunt me.

 

1) thinking about all of the money I tithed over the years

 

2) how stupid I was to have believed that shit. 

 

I do sometimes think about how complex the body is and it's hard for me to comprehend how we evolved to this point. But if I were to believe in a creator, that would beg the question of where did it come from and how did it develop the power to create? 

 

[nutrichuckles93]

3 minutes ago, BlindersRemoved said:

I do sometimes think about how complex the body is and it's hard for me to comprehend how we evolved to this point. But if I were to believe in a creator, that would beg the question of where did it come from and how did it develop the power to create? 

I'd put it down as one of those "God's ways are higher than our ways" things. That is a good question that I bet anyone in my church would be stumped to come up with a reply to.

[Lost]

You ALL are so smart and have lots of to say, but I'm still kind of not completely satisfied with your answers.

 

I noticed that mostly that what keeps people bound with churches are their personal experiences with God, very often complicated. Some even say that "I would kill myself if Jesus would not rescue me".

Many people have emotional problems, many can't accept taking medication for depression or schizophrenia to the end of their life and they can't stand common ignorance of psychiatrists. They try to find hope in Jesus. There are people in the world that have no families, have sick minds and church seems to be their merciful shelter. They don't think about science.

 

Hard circumstances of their lives decide about their fate over their minds.

 

If I would experience God in the way like Ian McCormack or Howard Storm it would be really hard for me to just ignore this whole experience and continue to accept evolution.

 

But yeah...evolution is a pure TRUTH...at least I think or hope so.

[Storm]

Lost,

One thing that you have to remember is that even if an actual miracle occurred, it is still not proof that it was done by the Christian God. Its still merely speculation. The only way to know for sure is to witness Jesus (or God himself) actually in the room and actually do the healing. Then and only then is there legitimate proof that it was done by the Christian Trinity based God. Otherwise, its just a miracle without a known source.

 

But in looking at it all, experience is entirely subjective to the one experiencing it. If something good is happening to me and I believe in the Christian God, by default, I am giving him the credit, whether or not its justified and true. Christianity works this way. God gets all the credit and none of the blame. Just by knowing that, it sure sheds some negative light on whether or not Christianity is true.

 

Another thing that I have learned, from Christianity (of all places) is that we often compare our behind the scenes to other people's front and center. In other words, we know our lives and the things that are happening to us and we often see other people's experiences and stories and we place a higher level of value to their experiences because we only see them from a limited viewpoint, basically what we hear and see from them. But it isn't the full story. For some unknown (to me) reason, humans tend to put more value on the lives of others than we do in our own. Things we see and hear about other people tend to influence us in ways that shift us toward believing that their lives are more meaningful or real or whatever belief you want to enter here. But its simply not true. Humans primarily share the same experiences and are much more alike than we think.

 

You are doing great in questioning things. Keep it up. Remember that things are rarely black and white and often are much more complicated than we understand.

[Lost]

I WISH I was born in Christian family and never loose faith or in family without religion and feel natural and good about it or being a person who just doesn't care about any religion or spirituality of any kind.

 

Why I have to be an obsessive questioner, doubter and stuck in my life for no reason and then die alone with this uncomfortable sense of painful unsureness? 

 

 

[Ellinas]

On 15/04/2017 at 8:25 PM, Lost said:

I WISH I was born in Christian family and never loose faith or in family without religion and feel natural and good about it or being a person who just doesn't care about any religion or spirituality of any kind.

 

Why I have to be an obsessive questioner, doubter and stuck in my life for no reason and then die alone with this uncomfortable sense of painful unsureness? 

 

 

 

You are what you are; no point in wishing to be different.

 

I saw an advert for a t-shirt recently.  The shirt has printed on it "I'd rather have questions that cannot be answered than answers that cannot be questioned".  I agree with that.  As I've said a number of times (maybe here, maybe on another site), certainty is over-rated.

 

You can, however, be certain that Christianity makes no sense unless you posit god to be a lying psychopath with a homicidal inclination to torture his own creation.  That's a religion I can do without.  You can add to that the lack of any apparent supernatural intervention on the part of this all-powerful god.  Why would you feel uncertain about the inherent nonsense of something that is clearly, on its' own terms, based on a concept of an untruthful, cruel and impotent deity?

[Lucy]

 

On 4/23/2017 at 9:45 AM, Ellinas said:

You can, however, be certain that Christianity makes no sense unless you posit god to be a lying psychopath with a homicidal inclination to torture his own creation. 

 

This is the thing that still bothers me about Christianity. I find it so odd that people can read the Bible and all the things god did or told his followers to do, and still think of the Bible god as the absolute authority on morality. They believe all our morality came from this Bible god even though most modern day Christians have a higher moral standard than Bible god. They make up excuses for the atrocities attributed to him and still see him as good and just while he murders or commands the murder of whole tribes for no reason other than they worship some other god. If I were to believe this god is real, then I am forced to believe he is a master of deception through psychological manipulation because he can do all manner of vile things to His Creation and still be perceived as "good."

[Autumn2909]

More the social aspect. The community, the warmth, and also the music.

 

 

I envy them sometimes, to be honest.

[MOHO]

2 hours ago, Lucy said:

 

 

This is the thing that still bothers me about Christianity. I find it so odd that people can read the Bible and all the things god did or told his followers to do, and still think of the Bible god as the absolute authority on morality. They believe all our morality came from this Bible god even though most modern day Christians have a higher moral standard than Bible god. They make up excuses for the atrocities attributed to him and still see him as good and just while he murders or commands the murder of whole tribes for no reason other than they worship some other god. If I were to believe this god is real, then I am forced to believe he is a master of deception through psychological manipulation because he can do all manner of vile things to His Creation and still be perceived as "good."

 

EXACTLY, Lucy!

 

Mrs. MOHO firmly believes that non-xtians have absolutely 0 (zero) morality or sense of right and wrong (was that redundant?).

 

When I opined that those who have to learn how to treat others by reading a book must be sociopaths I got a stare from her suggesting she was pondering that point. Let's hope.

 

When I point out all the murdering by David and others in the old testicle, supposedly at the command of god, she exclaims "Of course! Because god is a vengeful god!"

 

No shit Sherlock! "So tell me how can he be vengeful and good and just all at the same time?" Asked I.

"Because sometimes you have to be vengeful to be just!" Replied the lovely young lady to whom I am related by marriage.

 

I sleep just fine...with one eye open.

[Lost]

I thought that this topic is going to be buried alive, but I see some new responses...so I'm glad.

 

On 25.04.2017 at 11:53 PM, daisyfields said:

More the social aspect. The community, the warmth, and also the music.

 

I envy them sometimes, to be honest.

Definitely I agree with You  daisyfields. I envy them that God for them is still alive and real and they seem to have no doubt about it. 

 

On 23.04.2017 at 4:45 PM, Ellinas said:

 

Why would you feel uncertain about the inherent nonsense of something that is clearly, on its' own terms, based on a concept of an untruthful, cruel and impotent deity?

 

Nice Ellinas that You wrote something to me.   I'm still uncertain, because of different stories that I heared from believers, their testimonies of new-borns on You Tube AND this whole transformation from within that people experience after inviting Jesus to their lives. Sometimes I'm not convinced that in every Christian case it's a fake, but actually they truly were touched by God. I don't know if in every case it's just a brain's trick.

That's what You are saying is completely true and in the same time there is this thought that maybe God's ways are not ours and he does some things even if we don't get it.

All forms of suffereing seem to be unfair with or without God to be honest.

 

I definitely go insane, cause when I'm in church I desire to be free and believe in science and evolution, but when I live my life and try to remove at least for some time church from my consciousness I remind myself different Christian testimonies or some people's cases (I wrote their names in the beginning of this topic).

 

I noticed that, individuals who experience answered prayers and transformation in their life after inviting Jesus to their lives they start to ignore science and secular thought (they claim that they don't need it, cause God revelated himself to them) and scientists who analyze evolution, facts and proofs they seem to reject every single spiritual or mystical experience that anyone can have... claiming that in every case it's just a brain's work.

 

It's hard to not go crazy thinking about all of that. Everyone has different minds, life's situation, struggles, family support or lack of support, alive family members or dead...everything what we experienced seems to influence the way we think about God and how our brain adopt imagination about him.

For some people it would be better to not to lose faith at all, cause it was literally only one thing that kept their lives together...last possible hope.

 

Recently, I admitted to myself that yeah, God was always there for me as a little motherless daughter in Catholic Church or now in Evangelical (I see no way out for now), but I always had actually worldly desires although I was always God-believing pale, shy blondie with sad eyes. I mean dancing, listening to 80's music and other genres, being famous at least for doing one good thing for the world of the film, screenwriting, psychology, psychiatry.

 

For years and still I choose jumping till midnight or longer to my favourite music and replaying same songs over and over again while watching video clips (I even got small letter from my neighbour to stop jumping and be quiet after 9 pm) than praying to God even though I had some precious conversations with him for hours, as I remember. 

 

SO YEAH, THAT'S WHAT BOTHERS ME :/

 

Today on sermon one elderly man said that world DID NOT came to existence from the big bag and sun, planets, stars DID NOT ordered themselves alone...someone had to do is and it's God.

Although I am in church, in the closet and I miss Christianity I wanted to attack this man, screaming or shooting myself.

 

Nowadays, I've got reactions typical for rational, critically thinking person, but still can't be OUT and fully satisfied about life, that is completely paranoid for me, cause it's full of beloved ones' death, laziness, shopaholism, debts, obsessions, maladaptive daydreaming, neverending curiosity, depersonalization (or rather panic and anxiety as my psychologist said), loneliness and...crazy dreaming. I focus on many things, but can't be truly productive at least in ONE.