triv Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 This is in reply to the Jefferson post above that is closed. Of the 55 delegates that were present at the Constitutional convention, only 3 were diests. Jefferson, Williamson and Wilson. In fact, not only were the founding fathers mostly Christian, they were also largely Calvinists. The whole deism story came about from people like Steve Morris from Athiests United in L.A. Some of the names mentioned as Deists: Washington, Adams, Henry, Madison; Morris simply ignores anything that they said that is contradictory to his deist hypothesis. What next? Is there going to be a post about how there was no Holocaust? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shiva H. Vishnu Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 This is in reply to the Jefferson post above that is closed. Of the 55 delegates that were present at the Constitutional convention, only 3 were diests. Jefferson, Williamson and Wilson. In fact, not only were the founding fathers mostly Christian, they were also largely Calvinists. The whole deism story came about from people like Steve Morris from Athiests United in L.A. Some of the names mentioned as Deists: Washington, Adams, Henry, Madison; Morris simply ignores anything that they said that is contradictory to his deist hypothesis. What next? Is there going to be a post about how there was no Holocaust? How about a post about how there is no "Triune God". No Jesus. No reason for Jesus. No reason to believe in Jesus. No sense in the idea that God is 3 persons but 1 person. No Holy Spirit. No Devil. No Hell. No.......no reason to care if there were 3 or 30 deist founding fathers. The constitution is the same either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 This is in reply to the Jefferson post above that is closed. Of the 55 delegates that were present at the Constitutional convention, only 3 were diests. Jefferson, Williamson and Wilson. In fact, not only were the founding fathers mostly Christian, they were also largely Calvinists. The whole deism story came about from people like Steve Morris from Athiests United in L.A. Some of the names mentioned as Deists: Washington, Adams, Henry, Madison; Morris simply ignores anything that they said that is contradictory to his deist hypothesis. What next? Is there going to be a post about how there was no Holocaust? yeah sure, it was just the most notible people who were deists...even so, Jefferson was a Deist for sure, Washinton, may have been a christian, but was certianly not a fundamentalist (he refused to take communion for one, and for two refused to speak openly about his religion) Also you should remember Thomas Paine (many forget him even though he was the FIRST person to call for a revolution) He hated the christian religion with a passion, and even went as far to say that the bible was a blasphemous book. Sure some of the founding fathers were christian, maybe even a lot of them, but most of them were certainly not the sort of christian that most fundamentlists would appriciate, nor did the base this country on biblical values...they bassed it on elightenment philosophy, which you would know if you ever read a book. P.S. Mostly Calvinists? are you off your rocker? Sorry but I'll need to see some proof before I buy that one...where did you hear that? did your pastor tell you? Please, unless you have some source text that I can look at and judge for myself, don't waste my time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Triv, read some history. If your god was so important to the Founders, why is he not mentioned by name in the Declaration, the Constitution, or the vast majority of founding documents of the US? The lie that the Founders were Xians was begun by fundy nutjobs in the 20th century, and swallowed up by a populace wholly ignorant of their own history, and moreover too lazy to research it. If this were a Xian country, there would be no freedom of speech (since that allows for anti-Xian talk), no freedom of the press (since that allows for the press to defy Christ by reporting things that cast your cult in a bad light) and no free elections, since Xian countries are run by those who believe in divine mandates by the Lard, not leave things up to the people to decide. The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution may make room for Xians to believe and practice as they wish, but they are some of the most ethically un-Xian documents ever written. The Fathers of this country had great disdain for Xianity. Click here if you care to read what some of them said about Xianity. Jesus, the Scum of Gawd, was not what they bowed down to, or else this nation would've been explicitly Xian in nature right from the get go. The notion that this is a Xian nation is one of the biggest lies ever. And trying to tie in the Holocaust to it just shows how little proof you have to defend the Xian American Myth. Those two things are totally unrelated. Show up with some better evidence next time or don't waste bandwidth by spouting zombie propaganda you know you can't back up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greasemonkey Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 I always end up going back to the Treaty of Tripoli and ask this simple question: If they were all bible thumpers of the sort we have nowdays, then how in the world would they have let the "As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion..." part slip by...?! And not only did they let it "slip by;" they did it unanimously! The treaty was written by George Washington (yes, your deist!); it was the 339th item that needed a recorded vote by the senate to pass. It was only one of three (out of 339!) that passed unanimously; records show there was no debate about it either (and there are very good and verifiable records). I should mention that every member of the senate recieved a copy of the treaty; and it was published in at least three newspapers with no record of any kind of public backlash recorded as a result, so it wasn't like anyone just slipped it through the cracks. I seem to recall that a large number of people came here escaping religious persecution. Guess what? They weren't being persucuted by Moslems or Buhhdists either ...they were being persecuted by other Christians! This doesn't seem like the actions (or inaction) of a people who really yearned for a "Christian Nation," does it now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrmarlin Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 This is in reply to the Jefferson post above that is closed. Of the 55 delegates that were present at the Constitutional convention, only 3 were diests. Jefferson, Williamson and Wilson. In fact, not only were the founding fathers mostly Christian, they were also largely Calvinists. The whole deism story came about from people like Steve Morris from Athiests United in L.A. Some of the names mentioned as Deists: Washington, Adams, Henry, Madison; Morris simply ignores anything that they said that is contradictory to his deist hypothesis. What next? Is there going to be a post about how there was no Holocaust? Triv you obviously don't have a clue. Washington and Franklin were both FREE MASONS. Free Masons don't even believe in Xianity. They shun it almost as frevalently as Deists, Agnostics, Atheists... Etc. See what I mean! This country has some of the stupidest people in the world. You go to France and French people have a handle on their history. You talk to someone in the UK and they know their history... And both of these countries have a longer history than America. Yet, you ask Americans for the history of their country and they constantly misquote, misinform and flat out lie to prove their point as being the right point. Triv, go back to school. You obviously slept through your US History classes. And while you're at it get a grip. Thanks for the laugh. You really cracked me up. I always end up going back to the Treaty of Tripoli and ask this simple question: If they were all bible thumpers of the sort we have nowdays, then how in the world would they have let the "As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion..." part slip by...?! And not only did they let it "slip by;" they did it unanimously! The treaty was written by George Washington (yes, your deist!); it was the 339th item that needed a recorded vote by the senate to pass. It was only one of three (out of 339) that passed unanimously; records show there was no debate about it either (and there are very good and verifiable records). I should mention that every member of the senate recieved a copy of the treaty; and it was published in at least three newspapers with no record of any kind of public backlash recorded as a result, so it wasn't like anyone just slipped it through the cracks. I seem to recall that a large number of people came here escaping religious persecution. This doesn't seem like the actions (or inaction) of a people who really yearned for a "Christian Nation," does it now? Thank you. I completely forgot about that one. You're a doll, Greasemonkey. PS, Triv, I am the person who had it closed because I was sick of people defaming Jefferson. Don't even go there with me and try to tell me Jefferson was a Xian. You don't want to dare to open that can of shit. Don't go where angels dare to tread. OK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrmarlin Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Just an aside...I personally know of Christians who are freemasons, met one in VA who is Methodist and another was a life-long Christian and friend of the family during my childhood. He is no longer one but told my dad that he is not allowed to discuss what exactly went on during those meetings. And I have a friend right now who is a Free Mason and he says that at his meetings they are forbidden to even bring up such, as he called it, "nonsense." So there you go, two conflicting stories -- once again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greasemonkey Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Just an aside...I personally know of Christians who are freemasons, met one in VA who is Methodist and another was a life-long Christian and friend of the family during my childhood. He is no longer one but told my dad that he is not allowed to discuss what exactly went on during those meetings. My pops is a (retired) Southern Baptist preacher and a Mason; dunno what goes on in the meetings, but he's about as far from an atheist as you can go... ...and yes, he was still a minister when he started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 This is in reply to the Jefferson post above that is closed. Of the 55 delegates that were present at the Constitutional convention, only 3 were diests. Jefferson, Williamson and Wilson. In fact, not only were the founding fathers mostly Christian, they were also largely Calvinists. The whole deism story came about from people like Steve Morris from Athiests United in L.A. Some of the names mentioned as Deists: Washington, Adams, Henry, Madison; Morris simply ignores anything that they said that is contradictory to his deist hypothesis. What next? Is there going to be a post about how there was no Holocaust? Triv you obviously don't have a clue. Washington and Franklin were both FREE MASONS. Free Masons don't even believe in Xianity. They shun it almost as frevalently as Deists, Agnostics, Atheists... Etc. See what I mean! This country has some of the stupidest people in the world. You go to France and French people have a handle on their history. You talk to someone in the UK and they know their history... And both of these countries have a longer history than America. Yet, you ask Americans for the history of their country and they constantly misquote, misinform and flat out lie to prove their point as being the right point. Triv, go back to school. You obviously slept through your US History classes. And while you're at it get a grip. Thanks for the laugh. You really cracked me up. I always end up going back to the Treaty of Tripoli and ask this simple question: If they were all bible thumpers of the sort we have nowdays, then how in the world would they have let the "As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion..." part slip by...?! And not only did they let it "slip by;" they did it unanimously! The treaty was written by George Washington (yes, your deist!); it was the 339th item that needed a recorded vote by the senate to pass. It was only one of three (out of 339) that passed unanimously; records show there was no debate about it either (and there are very good and verifiable records). I should mention that every member of the senate recieved a copy of the treaty; and it was published in at least three newspapers with no record of any kind of public backlash recorded as a result, so it wasn't like anyone just slipped it through the cracks. I seem to recall that a large number of people came here escaping religious persecution. This doesn't seem like the actions (or inaction) of a people who really yearned for a "Christian Nation," does it now? Thank you. I completely forgot about that one. You're a doll, Greasemonkey. PS, Triv, I am the person who had it closed because I was sick of people defaming Jefferson. Don't even go there with me and try to tell me Jefferson was a Xian. You don't want to dare to open that can of shit. Don't go where angels dare to tread. OK? It's the Unitarian thing. I saw on CF where they all said that Unitarians were non denominational, so the founding fathers were in fact Christians. Jefferson said that he wished all men would be Unitarians and the founding father's who weren't Diest were Unitarians. Unitarians at that time believe in God, but not the Trinity. They believed Jesus was a superior moral person, and we should try to pattern our life after him, but they did not believe him to be devine. They also believed that all good men were Christians, regardless of their theological beliefs. They believed that a good character and moral responsibility was the way to an eternal reward. I think that Triv needs to read a damn history book. Even the clergy of the times complained about the lack of orthodox beliefs of the founding fathers. Taph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greasemonkey Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 JR, after what happened in previous posts, I don't know how to take this. What are you saying here? If anything it goes to show that even FreeMasons can't agree on legistics. Heaven forbid anyone should think that any large organized group would have doctrinal diferences in this country! it's a non-issue folks. no organization as large as the Masons is going to agree on everything. Religion among them. 30,000 (give or take) Christian denominations and counting... lots of people in the country. 80% self-identified Christian. do the math ...maybe they avoid religion for that very reason. One guys nonsense is another guys gospel; best bet is to avoid the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrmarlin Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Just an aside...I personally know of Christians who are freemasons, met one in VA who is Methodist and another was a life-long Christian and friend of the family during my childhood. He is no longer one but told my dad that he is not allowed to discuss what exactly went on during those meetings. And I have a friend right now who is a Free Mason and he says that at his meetings they are forbidden to even bring up such, as he called it, "nonsense." So there you go, two conflicting stories -- once again. JR, after what happened in previous posts, I don't know how to take this. What are you saying here? If anything it goes to show that even FreeMasons can't agree on legistics. I guess not. Who knows. I'm not a Free Mason so I have no idea. All I can relay is what my friend was able to tell me. And when I did further research, there were no references to Xianity, while that info on the entire organization is sparse at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrmarlin Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 BTW, JRMarlin, you have a lot of nerve to tell others to grow thicker skin while at the same time you continue to whine about a closed thread not only in this discussion but over in rants, get over it already. You keep dragging out the Thomas Jefferson issue and your problem with me into other threads, grow up. Do you want to start another disagreement, Serene? For someone who toots serenity in their bio, you certainly are an argumentative person... The problem is, I don't agree with you and I found your remarks inflammatory to say the least. You went out of your way and completely off topic to defame Jefferson. If you think I was angered by what you said on the other tread, you put a lot more into these message boards than I do. I know people are going to disagree with me. It's a free country. I was miffed that you went off topic only to sit there and defame someone who fought for the very freedom for you to sit here on an ex-christian website and dispute God in the first place. I think that's rich. If you think that's a personal attack, that's your own problem. Not mine. However, I did put a little last liner on that tread and it was completely in deference to you: Jefferson was an ass because he owned slaves and not worthy of any respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 This is in reply to the Jefferson post above that is closed. Of the 55 delegates that were present at the Constitutional convention, only 3 were diests. Jefferson, Williamson and Wilson. In fact, not only were the founding fathers mostly Christian, they were also largely Calvinists. The whole deism story came about from people like Steve Morris from Athiests United in L.A. Some of the names mentioned as Deists: Washington, Adams, Henry, Madison; Morris simply ignores anything that they said that is contradictory to his deist hypothesis. What next? Is there going to be a post about how there was no Holocaust? I vote that this thread be moved to the Lion's Den. 1) Inflammatory arguments are fine, but no verifiable evidence is given to support the assertions made. So without proof, this post has the sole purpose of inflaming which makes it more appropriate Lion's Den material. 2) The section regarding the Holocaust is purely designed to cause a volitile emotional response.... not only is it it no way historically supported, but this poster cannot have found any reference in any Forum here that would lead him to the belief that such a moronic statement would be logically supported by anyone here.....so it's intent is purely to goad. Goading is more appropriate for the Lion's Den. I hope someone seconds this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrmarlin Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 This is in reply to the Jefferson post above that is closed. Of the 55 delegates that were present at the Constitutional convention, only 3 were diests. Jefferson, Williamson and Wilson. In fact, not only were the founding fathers mostly Christian, they were also largely Calvinists. The whole deism story came about from people like Steve Morris from Athiests United in L.A. Some of the names mentioned as Deists: Washington, Adams, Henry, Madison; Morris simply ignores anything that they said that is contradictory to his deist hypothesis. What next? Is there going to be a post about how there was no Holocaust? I vote that this thread be moved to the Lion's Den. 1) Inflammatory arguments are fine, but no verifiable evidence is given to support the assertions made. So without proof, this post has the sole purpose of inflaming which makes it more appropriate Lion's Den material. 2) The section regarding the Holocaust is purely designed to cause a volitile emotional response.... not only is it it no way historically supported, but this poster cannot have found any reference in any Forum here that would lead him to the belief that such a moronic statement would be logically supported by anyone here.....so it's intent is purely to goad. Goading is more appropriate for the Lion's Den. I hope someone seconds this. I concur with you! 2nd VOTE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anakin Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 What next? Is there going to be a post about how there was no Holocaust? Anyone else feel we've been equated with Nazis? I guess the assertion is that since we actually don't agree with the revision of US history that we would be low enough to deny the Holocaust. I third the motion to move this to the Lion's Den. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponymic Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 I hope someone seconds this. True dat! I'll give ya a third. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quicksand Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 This is in reply to the Jefferson post above that is closed. Of the 55 delegates that were present at the Constitutional convention, only 3 were diests. Jefferson, Williamson and Wilson. In fact, not only were the founding fathers mostly Christian, they were also largely Calvinists. The whole deism story came about from people like Steve Morris from Athiests United in L.A. Some of the names mentioned as Deists: Washington, Adams, Henry, Madison; Morris simply ignores anything that they said that is contradictory to his deist hypothesis. What next? Is there going to be a post about how there was no Holocaust? Who cares really what the founder's were. Theocracy does not work. Theocracy is not democracy. Its pretty simple, Fish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Triv, Kuroikaze is right. If you're not ready for his book entitled The Age of Reason concerning God, perhaps you'd be better off reading his book Common Sense. I believe that both are available free to read online. Also, regarding your post title "Founding Fathers and Deism is a Myth", are you a comedian? Please, the bible is a book intertwined with not only myth but historical fiction....just like Greek, Egyptian and Roman myths. Just because they believed in gods and actually existed as a people, and some of what they wrote were about 'real' things and issues of that time, does not make their gods real. Thank you - very well said. So many Xians give the Babble credence because a few things really did happen, and some of the places and people mentioned did - and do still - exist. That displays the lack of reasoning and that the Xians' desire to believe their holy book is so strong they'll make a mountain out of a molehill and swallow the whole story because of a few tidbits of "proof". I vote that this thread be moved to the Lion's Den. I concur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Broke Free Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 What faith did the Founding Fathers have? What did the Founding Father’s actually mean regarding each phrase of the Constitution? Who Cares! It has NO relevance today! It is the people of today that have the responsibility to interpret the Constitution. The Constitution is not the Bible; it is a living, breathing document open to changes and reinterpretation anytime we see fit. We can dump the whole thing and start over if we want. Trying to determine the mindset (or religion) of the Founding Fathers as a way to shape current law is just plain stupid. Noting irks me more than a fundy trying to tell me what the Founding Fathers ‘really’ meant. Who cares? They’re dead! IBF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 What faith did the Founding Fathers have? What did the Founding Father’s actually mean regarding each phrase of the Constitution? Who Cares! It has NO relevance today! It is the people of today that have the responsibility to interpret the Constitution. The Constitution is not the Bible; it is a living, breathing document open to changes and reinterpretation anytime we see fit. We can dump the whole thing and start over if we want. Trying to determine the mindset (or religion) of the Founding Fathers as a way to shape current law is just plain stupid. Noting irks me more than a fundy trying to tell me what the Founding Fathers ‘really’ meant. Who cares? They’re dead! IBF Yes, you know that Thomas Paine actually said this as well. That we should not allow dead people to dictate our laws, but should decide what is best for ourselves. Even our founding fathers didn't think of the constitution as some holy book that was beyond error...they understood that future people would likely disagree with them on things, that was why they wrote in the ability to amend it in the first place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triv Posted March 20, 2006 Author Share Posted March 20, 2006 I didn't include Paine because he was not part of the writing of the Constitution. I wasn't making any statements on how the U.S. started as a theocracy or anything like that. I just was pointing out that the whole idea that this country was founded on diest ideas was false. You guys can't even decide whats true about the Masons and I didn't even bring that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticOfBible Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 I didn't include Paine because he was not part of the writing of the Constitution. I wasn't making any statements on how the U.S. started as a theocracy or anything like that. I just was pointing out that the whole idea that this country was founded on diest ideas was false. You guys can't even decide whats true about the Masons and I didn't even bring that up. For a bunch of chirtians they certainly were rebelling against God. America's God-mocking Christian Founders Since fundamentalist Christians are fond of claiming that America was founded and established by God-fearing Christians, they are left with the problem that these "Christian founders" were all rebels and workers of evil in the eyes of the Almighty. The Christian founders of America were actually a bunch of insolent, rebellious, God-mockers. The Bible makes it clear that those who rebel against God's established authority are not doing His will at all. Rom 13:1-5 Let every soul be subject to the authorities(human rulers) that are above him. For there is no authority except from God; and those that exist are set up by God. So that he that sets himself in opposition to the authority resists the ordinance of God; and they who thus resist shall bring sentence of guilt on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to a good work, but to an evil one. Dost thou desire then not to be afraid of the authority? practise what is good(obey authority), and thou shalt have praise from it; for it(a human ruler) is God's minister to thee for good. But if thou practisest evil, fear; for it bears not the sword in vain; for it is God's minister, an avenger for wrath to him that does evil. Wherefore it is necessary to be subject, not only on account of wrath, but also on account of conscience. The same mandate to obey human authority is echoed in the following: 1 Peter 2:13-15 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: The commands for Christians to obey all human authority, which has been established by God according to his will, is clear and unambiguous. You can bet that Christian fundamentalists won't quote these verses when they chirp about the Christian founders of this nation. The Christian founders were all guilty of resisting God's authority. The servant and authority who God established, Old King George III of England, is in heaven right now, pointing his finger at all the rebellious Christian founders of America telling God, "Yup, that's the rebel bunch who refused your authority on earth. Let them burn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuaiDan Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 QUOTE(triv @ Mar 14 2006, 11:35 PM) This is in reply to the Jefferson post above that is closed. Of the 55 delegates that were present at the Constitutional convention, only 3 were diests. Jefferson, Williamson and Wilson. In fact, not only were the founding fathers mostly Christian, they were also largely Calvinists. The whole deism story came about from people like Steve Morris from Athiests United in L.A. Some of the names mentioned as Deists: Washington, Adams, Henry, Madison; Morris simply ignores anything that they said that is contradictory to his deist hypothesis. What next? Is there going to be a post about how there was no Holocaust? I vote that this thread be moved to the Lion's Den. 1) Inflammatory arguments are fine, but no verifiable evidence is given to support the assertions made. So without proof, this post has the sole purpose of inflaming which makes it more appropriate Lion's Den material. 2) The section regarding the Holocaust is purely designed to cause a volitile emotional response.... not only is it it no way historically supported, but this poster cannot have found any reference in any Forum here that would lead him to the belief that such a moronic statement would be logically supported by anyone here.....so it's intent is purely to goad. Goading is more appropriate for the Lion's Den. I hope someone seconds this. Concur. Up to six votes now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 You guys can't even decide whats true about the Masons and I didn't even bring that up. And you Xians can't even decide what's true about the Babble - guess that automatically disqualifies you to make a rational observation on the subject, huh? If this were a Xian country, it'd be obviously Xian from the get go. No freedom of speech or belief or anything else, only the freedom to glorify the Lard or be branded a heretic. Every single nation which has ever decided to run itself by Xian ideology has behaved precisely like that, curtailing freedoms and mandating Xian belief with various punishments. Jesus is not mentioned once in any of the primary founding documents of this country, and Deism was the new and popular outlook on religion and such back then, especially amongst the educated, such as those who wrote our basic documents. The uneducated were still cowering before their nearly-as-uneducated preachers, just going along with the status quo, inspired only to kiss up to an invisible god rather than improve the world in which they live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quicksand Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 I didn't include Paine because he was not part of the writing of the Constitution. I wasn't making any statements on how the U.S. started as a theocracy or anything like that. I just was pointing out that the whole idea that this country was founded on diest ideas was false. You guys can't even decide whats true about the Masons and I didn't even bring that up. However Triv, the argument invariably runs that if the founders were Christian, then the U.S. is founded as a Christian nation and so therefore things like a women's reproductive rights are forbidden and homosexuality is similarly a crime against the state - with some on the far extreme christian-right advocating capital punishment (by the state) if you are gay. Of course, the Founders are, again, always molded and reflective of the species of Christianity that the theocrat personally subscribes too. Usually a fundie on the right. The same dynamic happens with the bible. Liberals focus on Jesus as some kind of social worker and food pantry clerk, quoting relevant verses from the synpotics. Fundies focus on Leviticus, Paul and Revelation quoting the verses that subscribes accordingly to their religous principles as to what they think that god approves or disapproves of. But in each case, both fundies and liberals have to shoehorn the Consitution into a theocratic document and not a secular one. It's clearly a secular document. No surprises there. _______ Oh and one more thing... I just was pointing out that the whole idea that this country was founded on diest ideas was false. Strawman. No one educated in these matters would ever argue that the Consitution is founded on deist principles. Which brings me to question you. If you were not arguing that the U.S. is a Christian theocratic state, why bother to argue against deism as a founding "religious" principle of the founders? Deisim has no dogmas - unlike Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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