Was Paul a real apostle

[Castiel233]

I'm not going to get bogged down who was or not a real person in the Bible....

 

I'm treating the text flatly and dealing with what it says.....

 

Paul never met an earthly Jesus (or did he *)

 

The book of acts claims that apostles must have been with Jesus the whole time, which Paul wasn't.

 

So was Paul, who really is the co-founder of Christianity worthy to be considered a full member of the team......

 

*who really knows what went on, the NT is written terribly in parts

[florduh]

Chewbacca was a real Wookiee and actually did much to aid the rebels. This can be verified by reading Yoda's references to him.

[Castiel233]

5 minutes ago, florduh said:

Chewbacca was a real Wookiee and actually did much to aid the rebels. This can be verified by reading Yoda's references to him.

Why didn't he get a medal then at the same time as Han and Luke?

[Geezer]

1 hour ago, Garry said:

I'm not going to get bogged down who was or not a real person in the Bible....

 

I'm treating the text flatly and dealing with what it says.....

 

Paul never met an earthly Jesus (or did he *)

 

The book of acts claims that apostles must have been with Jesus the whole time, which Paul wasn't.

 

So was Paul, who really is the co-founder of Christianity worthy to be considered a full member of the team......

 

*who really knows what went on, the NT is written terribly in parts

 

 

I have invested years of study & research to see if there is valid evidence that supports the Gospels & Epistles as be true & at least somewhat accurate. My research has convinced me they are neither true or accurate. 

 

Therefore, if historians are correct, assuming the text to be an accurate representation of an actual historical event is a fatal assumption. Scholars commonly accept the entire book of Acts as fabricated fiction for a ton of reasons. 

 

Validating something is true would seem to be a vital first step. At least it was for me. 

[florduh]

2 hours ago, Garry said:

Why didn't he get a medal then at the same time as Han and Luke?

Politics and racial prejudice.

[mwc]

     I've mentioned this a long time ago.  Revelation 21 has this:

 

¹⁴ The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

 

     So who were the twelve?  We're told in Acts that Judas was replaced, putting the number back to twelve, but not with Saul/Paul.  So either someone drops out and we're not told about it or the simple math doesn't add up. 

 

     At face value the apostle that was chosen didn't count and the number was still eleven so Paul made it twelve.  The new guy counted and Paul didn't count.  Both of these counted and someone else didn't actually count.  Someone else fell out that we're not told about and Paul took his place making twelve.  The author of the Revelation never knew about or did know but didn't acknowledge Paul (or wasn't aware that Judas "betrayed" jesus or didn't know anything more than twelve was the number of apostles).

 

     No matter how you slice it the number of apostles according to Revelation is exactly twelve.  No more.  No less.  We don't know who they are but if the Acts states that the apostles filled the slot then Paul cannot be an apostle.

 

          mwc

 

[knightcore]

20 hours ago, Geezer said:

 

 

I have invested years of study & research to see if there is valid evidence that supports the Gospels & Epistles as be true & at least somewhat accurate. My research has convinced me they are neither true or accurate. 

 

Therefore, if historians are correct, assuming the text to be an accurate representation of an actual historical event is a fatal assumption. Scholars commonly accept the entire book of Acts as fabricated fiction for a ton of reasons. 

 

Validating something is true would seem to be a vital first step. At least it was for me. 

 

Do you have any resources that you could pass on? A lot of the time people throw the epistles at me when it comes to homosexuality. I'd love to have a way to disprove it. I mostly resort to "Jesus never mentions homosexuality when he is setting the new commandments and Paul is only human" but if there's a way to actually disprove the letters I would be over the moon!

 

Also Garry I have never viewed Paul as an apostle? Even when I was SUPER religious. I was always taught to view him as a missionary and that being his sole role. That could have been because I was being taught by missionaries though :/ 

[Geezer]

2 hours ago, knightcore said:

 

Do you have any resources that you could pass on? A lot of the time people throw the epistles at me when it comes to homosexuality. I'd love to have a way to disprove it. I mostly resort to "Jesus never mentions homosexuality when he is setting the new commandments and Paul is only human" but if there's a way to actually disprove the letters I would be over the moon!

 

Also Garry I have never viewed Paul as an apostle? Even when I was SUPER religious. I was always taught to view him as a missionary and that being his sole role. That could have been because I was being taught by missionaries though :/ 

 

For information about the Apostle Paul I would recommend Dr. Robert M. Price book The Amazing Colossal Apostle.

An easier to read and less wordy book that says essentially the same thing is Hermann Detering's book The Fabricated Paul. (And less expensive too on Kindle)

 

Even a novice should be able to see that Gospels and the Epistles are promoting very different religions. Apologist assume the Epistles were written first, estimated 35--50 AD and then the Gospels, estimated 63-90 AD, but historians see that differently. Historians believe the Gospel was written first estimated around 71-90 AD and the Epistles were created in the late first century up to approximately the first quarter of the second century. When you read one of the books I've referenced you will see why the dating of these writings is important for historians.

 

If Price, Detering, and other historians are correct then Paul, like Jesus, was a literary figure not a real person. Price & Detering believe Simon Magus was the actual writer of Paul's Epistles along with Marcion and his followers. And if historians are correct they were written after the Gospels, and that is important. Simon & Marcion believed in 2 Gods. The Jewish creator God was real but he was also evil. Jesus was the son of another higher God, an unknown God, that was more powerful that the creator God. This unknown God is the one who sent Jesus to redeem the world from sin because this unknown God was a God of love, grace, and compassion.This belief in 2 Gods got Simon & Marcion labeled as Heretics of the worst kind and an enemy of the emerging Catholic Church.

 

Simon and Marcion's religion was a form of Gnosticism. That was the basis of "Paul's" faith only teaching. Although Simon & Marcion believed strongly in grace and faith they also believed just as strongly in sexual purity, and they took that belief/teaching to extreme limits. The Epistles that are found in todays Bibles have been extensively redacted by the Catholic Church to soften or outright refute Paul's (Marcion's) teaching.

 

Paul's Heretical teaching is the reason Peter is the more important Apostle in the Catholic Church and Paul is considered to be of minimal importance. That situation, of course, is just reversed in protestant Churches. I found the Fabricated Paul a fascinating read & I think you and others would enjoy it too.

 

As far as homosexuality in the bible that would appear to be a culturally accepted norm that has been elevated to a theological issue.

 

 

[knightcore]

@Geezer Thank you so much!!! I will definitely try to read up on those soon that's super helpful. I had no idea about Simon and Marcion, I will read up more. You're awesome! 

[♦ nivek ♦]

OP answer?

 

No.

 

kL