Ain't no Rest for the Wicked

[Prowl]

 Hello Everyone! Did I catch your attention?

 

My account was recently approved so I figured why not introduce thine self!

 

I've been lurking this forum for a good while, and I have to admit this forum/community is an absolute God send (see what I did there?). Especially during this stage, or period in my life where I'm questioning so much, and literally staggering between the crossroads. Sorry, I don't mean to be poetic, or use over flowery language! Just trying to cover up any grammatical errors in my paragraphs is all... I apologize for that too, ha ha.

 

Anyway, before I get to my point, I'll give you all a brief background of myself. Please brace yourself because I tend to write novels.

 

I, much like everyone, was born into a relatively religious family. My family's ultimate faith of choice has always been Christian--at least the foundation. Yet, in regards to Christian denomination and/or affiliation, my family has gone through several transitions ranging from Catholic to Pentecostal, Protestant, and finally Evangelical (Born Again). Although religion has been a huge component of my life, my family wasn't very consistent when it came to church attendance, or representing the faith. My family life was filled with strife, tension and anxiety growing up. My father was a very angry man who smoked, drank and occasionally did drugs. Thankfully, he stopped shortly after my younger sister was born(mainly because my mother gave him an ultimatum.) However, he's been an avid weed smoker--and currently still--through out his whole life. It wasn't only my father, but my mom was pretty stagnant in her faith too. Hell, my whole family didn't portray the lives of wholesome Christians with their drinking, swearing and partying. As you can see, I haven't had the best examples of "good" Christian models in my life, but I digress.

 

I didn't really take church seriously until high school. Because of a certain event that had happened to me in the past, I felt like I needed to be cleansed. In fact, it was quite a bit of stuff that lead me to accept Christ during the time. I absolutely hated myself, and was bullied in school, not severely, but enough to not like myself. It was a lot, and I realize I'm revealing a little bit here, but in order to understand my current struggle I feel the need to overshare, ha ha.

 

The church accepted me and the rest is history. I got really involved in church: bible studies, youth group, ministries. You name it. I even helped and attended a Christian bible study group in my High school. I was very devout for almost four years. While I had to admit, my negative feelings of myself did wane down, life was still as complicated. Perhaps even more complicated since becoming a hard core Christian. Before, I used to believe that life as "born again" Christian would be easy compared to "sinners". When I say easy, I refer to how one dealt with their issues. Until I learned that regardless of your beliefs, way of life, or whatever, none of us our exempt from life struggles or missing the mark.

However, back in Church, I remember the pastor talking about how life is ten times harder as christian, and I always curious as to why. I soon realized why during those four years.

 

Now, I'm not going to go into detail ,but all I can say after I graduated I realized that being a Christian wasn't all it was cracked up to be. Majority of these feelings stemmed from my disappointment with the church I was in. While there were many good people in the church--including the pastor(s)--I felt unwelcome there. I was often times ignored, or not taken seriously. It's quite a bit and I wish I could go into detail, but in short the church had a lot of cliques. And I saw that many people--especially after I left--were just as confused and messed up as me, ha ha.

 

Anyway, when I went to college, I just flat out left, and never came back. And out of all four years of being there, not one has reached out to me. Including the Christian club at my High school. I did remain in contact with one friend whom I still talk too, but majority of my "friends" went about their separate ways. But that's expected of High school really nothing Christian or secular about that.

 

Ok, let's get to the juicy part. So yes, since I left the church, and furthermore my previous way of life, I have engaged in things I never thought I would do. For example, having sex, drinking and smoking. Yes, I was slowly regressing into a "heathen", but nothing most of y'all haven't done. While I wasn't a practicing Christian, I did very much still adhere and believe many principles from the bible. Thinking one day, maybe I'll return to my previous way of life.

 

And then...

 

I began to explore my sexuality, and started messing with women. For the past two years I've been curious, and eventually the desire continued to grow. Just a side note, but I've always had a streak of bi-ness, or attraction to women since I was five. It was never prevalent during my youth (I mean I'm still young now) but it was always there lingering. Up until last year, I've always dated and slept with men until I took a risk and started dating women. And it was both frightening and exciting and unlike anything I have ever done or felt before.

 

Now, I am currently dating a woman, and the relationship while not perfect, is probably the best one I've had thus far. Yes, I did get a whole lot of shit for it from my immediate family, and it wasn't easy. And most of my Christian friends still are unaware of my girlfriend, but that's another story.

 

Anyway, the point of this rant was to bring to light this certain dilemma I have, and I thank anyone whose read up to this point.

While I'm still not practicing, I do find myself feeling bouts of guilt on occasion. And while I have felt guilty for not being a die hard Christian before, it has never overwhelmed me this much after I started dating my girlfriend. It's like I go through these cycles where I'm ok, life is good, etc and then feeling anxious, scared, ashamed. It fucking sucks.

 

 On one hand, I feel like religion/ faith/ morals are absolutely necessary because of all the evil occurring in this world. For instance, take a look at the current political climate we all find ourselves in. It's a total mess. But more importantly, I'm afraid of going to hell, and being tortured for an eternity because of what I've been told (As well as all of you) for most of our lives. If we don't accept Jesus and follow his ways we go to hell; Also I'm engaging in homosexuality everything I do is considered an abomination and I'm definitely going to hell. I don't know about you all, but that's fucking terrifying. So yeah, I can't help, but constantly worry about that.

 

Yet, on the other hand, I have no intention of joining a church anytime soon. In fact, I frankly dislike religion a lot now. I understand faith, and spirituality, but the religious dogma, rituals and tradition I refuse to accept or follow. Even though, I understand the role it plays in society when it comes to order...

 

Overall, at the moment, I'm just enjoying my life. Sure, it's not perfect but I'm currently in the best shape mentally, and personally. Despite my constant mental battles with my identity(via religion, spirituality etc). And yes, much like everyone else, I have issue with an all knowing and loving God willingly sending his children into a pit hole of torture and sorrow. I've come to the conclusion that my punishment should come from the consequences of my actions. If I'm wrong, the only thing I ask him is he kill me painlessly and quickly. I would rather that than be sent to eternal damnation. I thought it was all about character and how we treat people.

 

Also, I hear about these inconsistencies in the bible. I can think of maybe one or two examples, but  I never sought after the truth. I think I'm afraid of what the answer may be? Whether it supports the bible or not, I'm afraid of both outcomes. Because if it supports it, than I am willingly walking  into my own death sentence. If its against it, everything I have ever believed in, or held true is wrong. Most of my life as been lie. Yes, I'm very distraught over this because this in it's essence is a part of me I'm giving up. Where will I base my morality from now? And how about others? Are they now justified in the "evil" deeds they commit if there is no Hell or Heaven? As I stated, faith is very important to me, and I don't see myself giving up the belief of a God, but I am contemplating completely letting go of ideas--or at least attempting-- that have been ingrained in me. For example, the idea of hell...

 

And maybe I am trying to justify homosexuality, what of it? But, I would like to believe if we were given free will, unless we don't use it against others, or ourselves, why should I be punished for it? Why not let us learn, and grow instead of being thrown into fire and brimstone?

 

 Listen, I am completely open to the idea that I may be wrong? But am I crazy for not wanting to serve someone that may kill me if I disagree? Am I crazy for using the free will that was given to me? Like I said, all I ask of God/ Jesus/ Gandhi that he grant me mercy if I am...

 

I have so many questions...

 

Alas, I have written too much. I do thank anyone for staying until the very end; I appreciate it! Also, any feedback, advice, tips and tricks is really welcomed!

Right now, I'm trying to find a community of people that are in the same rut as me. Unfortunately there are no local meetups of ex-christian folks, so I have to settle for this lovely site.

 

Toodles!

--Prowl

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Prowl around for a while.

[Prowl]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Prowl around for a while.

Will do, sir. Will do...

[MOHO]

Welcome, Prowl,

 

Stick around.

We're here for 'ya regardless of sexual orientation, religious background, racial ethnicity, spelling challenges, or feeble minded attempts at humor.

[Margee]

Welcome to Ex-c Prowl. So glad you found us.... and thanks so much for sharing some of your story with us. We can relate in one way or another to all the stories that are written here. You are not alone - on this site anyway! ''Home sweet home'' you are, with people who totally get it. Looking forward to hearing more from you! Go and have some fun. We'll help you work out anything you need help with. Someone is always here to help you along! Keep reading all the stories and keep posting. We can help you 'unbrainwash' yourself. You're gonna be alright hon.

 

(hug)

[★ Citsonga ★]

Greetings!

 

Many of us can identify with your struggles in one way or another. We've gone through the phase of doubting but not being sure, and it can be rough. I remember feeling like I had the ground yanked out from under my feet and falling with nowhere to get a foothold. It sucked.

 

You should not feel guilty for who you love. It's nobody else's business what gender you're attracted to because it doesn't harm them in any way. If anyone feels that it harms them, what's really harming them is their own prejudice.

 

You mentioned a fear of hell. That is a pretty common fear people have as they leave religion, and it's an understandable fear if you're unsure. The reality is that hell is make-believe and is therefore nothing to fear. You also mentioned Bible inconsistencies and said you hadn't really looked into them too much. That's the issue that started my doubting, and what sealed it for me was looking into the allegedly fulfilled prophecies and seeing how the NT writers repeatedly took OT texts out of context in order to fabricate prophetic fulfillments. I tackle these issues and more in the letter I wrote my parents a few years ago. If you're interested in reading it, you can download it from post #13 in the link in my signature, which should be visible if you're using a computer (if you don't see it but are interested, let me know and I can post a link to it).

 

Anyway, good luck as you deal with all of this and move on with your life. In closing, I'd like to leave you with a song that I can't help but think of when I see the title of this thread:

 

 

[Geezer]

Welcome aboard Prowl. Leaving Christianity/Religion is a process not an event. It takes time and the journey is often bumpy. The potential repercussions from leaving your religion is often in proportion to how deeply involved and committed you were as a believer. If your social structure isn't directly tied to your faith then it will be easier to walk away.

 

Lots of info on this site that I'm sure you will find helpful and don't hesitate to ask questions.

 

Once again, welcome aboard.

[Prowl]

@MOHO  thanks, I guess, hee hee

 

@Margee Thank you so much! I look forward to conversing more with all of you. As well as reading everyone else's experiences and stories too.

 

@Citsonga  Wow, thanks for the insight! I'll be sure to check out your links when I get the chance. I really appreciate the feedback. Perhaps we can correspond more if you don't mind. I would love to learn what you know. And yes I thought this song would depict perfectly the feeling/message I was trying to convey! Glad you got the reference!

 

@Geezer  thank you! Yes, you are right. It is a process, and like every process it is a journey. I'm glad it led me here though where this journey takes me.

 

I really am grateful for all the warm welcomes everyone. I look forward to future conversations, discussions and words of wisdom from all of you. Please do not hesitate to pm me! I am open to discuss whatever!

 

Does anyone have any suggestions on where I should begin first? In regards to discovering life after religion and unraveling all the indoctrination I have received?

 

Until next time and warm regards!

 

Prowl

[DanForsman]

Hi Prowl and welcome. You seem to be coming at this problem from a little different angle as I think your motivation for questioning becomes most clear when you describe your earnest desire to pursue a relationship that you enjoy but seems to conflict with the teachings of your church. I think the answer you want is right out there waiting for you but you are at the very very beginning of going through the steps to get there. Christianity and especially fundamental christianity wants you to skip right to believing before asking the most basic questions of what exactly is christianity asserting and are those assertions true. I don't think there is a good way for you to move forward without stopping and taking the time to ask yourself these basic questions and then looking everywhere for the answers that seem to have the highest probability of being correct. You must look deep within yourself and on the internet and at relevant written materials until you find answers that absolutely satisfy yourself. If christianity is true then the search is on within the bible and other sects to find a way to integrate your sexual preferences with the wishes of your god. On the other hand if christianity is not true then there is no hell and as long as you live within the laws of your land you are free to do whatever you wish. Additionally if you discover the christianity isn't credible you will want to rethink morality within the very new and different landscape of non belief. Just because you find that you are free to destroy, plunder and harm whomever and whatever you wish doesn't mean that you, Prowl, will conclude that these are things you've always wanted to do nor does it mean you will determine that this is the wisest pattern of behaviors to pursue. Choosing to leave fundamental christianity (with it's child like faith) in many ways is like becoming an adult. Yes you can do anything you want but you and you alone bear full responsibility for your actions. In my opinion shedding your faith is a game you will win because we here at ExC have never seen any proof or compelling evidence to support any of the significant claims of the supernatural found throughout the old and new testament. Nevertheless if you want to free yourself from the fear or hell you will first have to prove to your own complete satisfaction that the bible is a man made construct and that Jesus (if the name does in fact reference an actual specific person) is completely and beyond anyreasonable doubt dead. This is your ticket to freedom. This is the good news you seek.  

[Loopylou]

On 4/27/2017 at 6:34 AM, Prowl said:

 

I, much like everyone, was born into a relatively religious family.

 

This tells me you're probably in the US, as it certainly doesn't apply in most Western countries apart from the US. Few Americans seem to realise how weird their country is in its obsession with religion. I believe the latest figures are that 85% of Australians don't go to any church, so the religious families are a small minority here. It certainly makes it easier for us to leave.

 

 

On 4/27/2017 at 6:34 AM, Prowl said:

 

 On one hand, I feel like religion/ faith/ morals are absolutely necessary because of all the evil occurring in this world. For instance, take a look at the current political climate we all find ourselves in. It's a total mess. But more importantly, I'm afraid of going to hell, and being tortured for an eternity because of what I've been told (As well as all of you) for most of our lives.

 

I don't really understand how religion or faith in non-existent gods are necessary to counteract the mess the world is in -- in fact it seems to me that religion is behind a lot of the mess. You can get your moral code from anywhere, and if you're going to try to get it from the Bible you're going to have to be extremely picky. As for the fear of hell, I'm not sure if this is a fundamentalist/pentecostal thing or what, but I went to three different denominations (Lutheran, Anglican, and Uniting Church) and I can't remember hell even being mentioned. It certainly wasn't drummed into us that it was something we should be afraid of or worry about.

 

On 4/27/2017 at 6:34 AM, Prowl said:

 

If we don't accept Jesus and follow his ways we go to hell;

 

Where does it say this, exactly? (And if it does say exactly that, how do you know that the writer, writing almost 2000 years ago, knew what the hell he was talking about? Remember they thought the Earth was flat and hell was a fiery place beneath the flat Earth.)

 

On 4/27/2017 at 6:34 AM, Prowl said:

Also I'm engaging in homosexuality everything I do is considered an abomination and I'm definitely going to hell.

 

Again, where exactly does it say that etc.? The fundamentalists who condemn homosexuality on the basis of Leviticus 20:13 are hypocrites because they ignore the second part:

'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." (NIV)

Also, since you're not a man, you would seem to be in the clear.

 

On 4/27/2017 at 6:34 AM, Prowl said:

 

Overall, at the moment, I'm just enjoying my life.

 

Great idea! And good to hear.

 

On 4/27/2017 at 6:34 AM, Prowl said:

 

Also, I hear about these inconsistencies in the bible. I can think of maybe one or two examples, but  I never sought after the truth.

 

If you want to be a good atheist and know the truth, read the bible from cover to cover. When I first became a Christian the first thing the minister did was to warn me against it! I soon realised why as I kept reading it. It's full of inconsistencies and some really weird and sick stuff that never ever gets preached about in any church. Look at Judges 19 for example, where the mob demand access to a male guest so they can rape him. The master of the house refuses and gives the mob his daughter and concubine to pack rape instead. The latter is raped and beaten to death, and the master chops the body into 12 bits and sends a piece to each tribe of Israel to show how faithful he was to God and to demonstrate he'd done the right thing in protecting his guest.  There's a similar passage in Genesis 19. So, according the bible pack rape and murder is fine, as long as the victims are women. But a loving relationship between two men is an abomination and they should be executed. 

 

On 4/27/2017 at 6:34 AM, Prowl said:

Where will I base my morality from now?

 

There's actually no reason why you can't keep the teachings of Jesus (the good ones at least), along with the morality teachings of other great preachers whose ideas resonate with you. You don't have to stop loving your neighbour  just because you've stopped believing in an invisible god in the sky. In fact your morality can be on a 'higher plane' than the morality of someone who is moral just because they're afraid of a hell.

 

On 4/27/2017 at 6:34 AM, Prowl said:

Right now, I'm trying to find a community of people that are in the same rut as me. Unfortunately there are no local meetups of ex-christian folks, so I have to settle for this lovely site.

 

 

I hope you find some like-minded people you can meet face-to-face, but I'm finding this site is a really good place to be.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Prowler,

        First, I would like to say welcome to ex-c. I hope you find the answers you are looking for here. There are many good resources and forum discussions you can use to help you get past your fears. We are glad to have you as part of the family.

 

On 4/26/2017 at 5:04 PM, Prowl said:

The church accepted me and the rest is history. I got really involved in church: bible studies, youth group, ministries. You name it. I even helped and attended a Christian bible study group in my High school. I was very devout for almost four years. While I had to admit, my negative feelings of myself did wane down, life was still as complicated. Perhaps even more complicated since becoming a hard core Christian. Before, I used to believe that life as "born again" Christian would be easy compared to "sinners". When I say easy, I refer to how one dealt with their issues. Until I learned that regardless of your beliefs, way of life, or whatever, none of us our exempt from life struggles or missing the mark.

However, back in Church, I remember the pastor talking about how life is ten times harder as christian, and I always curious as to why. I soon realized why during those four years.

 

Now, I'm not going to go into detail ,but all I can say after I graduated I realized that being a Christian wasn't all it was cracked up to be. Majority of these feelings stemmed from my disappointment with the church I was in. While there were many good people in the church--including the pastor(s)--I felt unwelcome there. I was often times ignored, or not taken seriously. It's quite a bit and I wish I could go into detail, but in short the church had a lot of cliques. And I saw that many people--especially after I left--were just as confused and messed up as me, ha ha.

 

Anyway, when I went to college, I just flat out left, and never came back. And out of all four years of being there, not one has reached out to me. Including the Christian club at my High school. I did remain in contact with one friend whom I still talk too, but majority of my "friends" went about their separate ways. But that's expected of High school really nothing Christian or secular about that.

 

Ok, let's get to the juicy part. So yes, since I left the church, and furthermore my previous way of life, I have engaged in things I never thought I would do. For example, having sex, drinking and smoking. Yes, I was slowly regressing into a "heathen", but nothing most of y'all haven't done. While I wasn't a practicing Christian, I did very much still adhere and believe many principles from the bible. Thinking one day, maybe I'll return to my previous way of life.

 

 

A lot of this sounds familiar. I also had to question why gods children needed to struggle like I saw so many do. It seems like a true testament of gods power would be to show the "heathen" that God had power over the lives of his people and they were blessed more so than the sinners. I mean that's what happened in the stories of the old testament. Repeatedly God always showed favor to those that followed him. And didn't Jesus even say that anything you ask in my name it shall be granted? Ahh, but if you question that then you get the whole God has a better plan speech, correct?

     Unfortunately all those old stories of gods power being shown were just that..... old stories. The bible says so many different things that contradict itself it isn't even funny. You see it more when you get fully on the outside of faith and your looking at it with a new perspective. 

On 4/26/2017 at 5:04 PM, Prowl said:

And then...

 

I began to explore my sexuality, and started messing with women. For the past two years I've been curious, and eventually the desire continued to grow. Just a side note, but I've always had a streak of bi-ness, or attraction to women since I was five. It was never prevalent during my youth (I mean I'm still young now) but it was always there lingering. Up until last year, I've always dated and slept with men until I took a risk and started dating women. And it was both frightening and exciting and unlike anything I have ever done or felt before.

 

Now, I am currently dating a woman, and the relationship while not perfect, is probably the best one I've had thus far. Yes, I did get a whole lot of shit for it from my immediate family, and it wasn't easy. And most of my Christian friends still are unaware of my girlfriend, but that's another story.

 

Anyway, the point of this rant was to bring to light this certain dilemma I have, and I thank anyone whose read up to this point.

While I'm still not practicing, I do find myself feeling bouts of guilt on occasion. And while I have felt guilty for not being a die hard Christian before, it has never overwhelmed me this much after I started dating my girlfriend. It's like I go through these cycles where I'm ok, life is good, etc and then feeling anxious, scared, ashamed. It fucking sucks.

 

 On one hand, I feel like religion/ faith/ morals are absolutely necessary because of all the evil occurring in this world. For instance, take a look at the current political climate we all find ourselves in. It's a total mess. But more importantly, I'm afraid of going to hell, and being tortured for an eternity because of what I've been told (As well as all of you) for most of our lives. If we don't accept Jesus and follow his ways we go to hell; Also I'm engaging in homosexuality everything I do is considered an abomination and I'm definitely going to hell. I don't know about you all, but that's fucking terrifying. So yeah, I can't help, but constantly worry about that.

If you want to go to a church there are churches that are more accepting of homosexuality, such as the Episcopalian church. But I was indoctrinated into a fundamentalist church as well and unlike loopy lou I can think of a few places that are hard to get past and still be comfortable as a homosexual christian. So I have an idea of what is influencing your fears. 

      Shortly after my deconversion my oldest son, who inadvertently initiated the final leg of my deconversion by telling me he thought the bible was BS, told me he felt like he might be gay. I won't go into any detail but he explained to me why he felt that way. I am thankful that my deconversion happened prior to him talking to me about this. I was a lot more accepting and I would go as far as to say encouraging, than I would have been as a fundy. 

    As I will be for him when he finds someone who makes him happy, I am happy for you that you have found someone. Honestly there is no reason, other than biblical teachings, for you not to be with a woman. I know you say you are afraid of completely losing your faith but I think you will find that after the initial deconversion, life is better in light of the truth. I encourage you to explore this sight. 

     I am actually one of the few on this site that are still spiritual minded. I still believe in something "supernatural" I guess you would say. But I no longer believe in the god of the bible as I have found to many lies to look past them. You do not have to be a Christian to have a good moral compass. The bible does not hold a monopoly on right and wrong. I think we can all naturally figure out that if we murder someone, inflict pain on someone, or steal from someone. That, that is wrong. We don't need a bible to tell us that. However the bible places a lot more rules on things like your current situation that aren't wrong and don't hurt anyone. 

On 4/26/2017 at 5:04 PM, Prowl said:

Also, I hear about these inconsistencies in the bible. I can think of maybe one or two examples, but  I never sought after the truth. I think I'm afraid of what the answer may be? Whether it supports the bible or not, I'm afraid of both outcomes. Because if it supports it, than I am willingly walking  into my own death sentence. If its against it, everything I have ever believed in, or held true is wrong. Most of my life as been lie. Yes, I'm very distraught over this because this in it's essence is a part of me I'm giving up. Where will I base my morality from now? And how about others? Are they now justified in the "evil" deeds they commit if there is no Hell or Heaven? As I stated, faith is very important to me, and I don't see myself giving up the belief of a God, but I am contemplating completely letting go of ideas--or at least attempting-- that have been ingrained in me. For example, the idea of hell...

 

And maybe I am trying to justify homosexuality, what of it? But, I would like to believe if we were given free will, unless we don't use it against others, or ourselves, why should I be punished for it? Why not let us learn, and grow instead of being thrown into fire and brimstone?

 

 Listen, I am completely open to the idea that I may be wrong? But am I crazy for not wanting to serve someone that may kill me if I disagree? Am I crazy for using the free will that was given to me?

No your not crazy for thinking that. In fact I was reading one forum here and came across a study that showed how hell in the old testament and the hell that Jesus preached were two very separate things. However when the bible was rewritten the grave in the old testament was reworded as Hell. I'm sure this was done to compliment the new testament teachings of an everlasting fiery hell. 

      Judaism and later Christianity have evolved over the course of hundreds and thousands of years to be what they are now.  The more I've studied and read the more I see the evolution of these theologies. From what I am reading it really wasn't until after the epistles of Paul that the gospels were written, and there were also a lot of forgeries that made it into the bible. Their was a lot of in fighting and doctrinal conflicts in the early church and it seems that it was during all this that the concept of an everlasting, torturous, hell emerged. Probably to keep members from questioning what they were being told by their various religious leaders. And of course the Catholic Church capitalised on this teaching and ruled the world for over 1000 years. 

     I denied it for a long time but hell really was crafted just to controll the population to the will of the ruling king and the church. You can see yourself now how powerful the fear of Hell is in your life. Imagine the same fear and how well it controlled people 1000 years ago, when the people couldn't read and had to rely on the priest to teach them about God and what/what not to believe. 

       I hope you find the answers you are looking for Prowl. Feel free to ask all those questions you mentioned. I've always said that the only stupid question is the one you don't ask. 

 

Best regards,

         Dark Bishop

 

[Aethelred]

Welcome, Prowl! This will be a long reply that befits a long post. Here goes.

 

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I do find myself feeling bouts of guilt on occasion. And while I have felt guilty for not being a die hard Christian before, it has never overwhelmed me this much after I started dating my girlfriend. It's like I go through these cycles where I'm ok, life is good, etc and then feeling anxious, scared, ashamed. It fucking sucks.

 

One of the most insidious effects of religion is that it makes you doubt yourself. I have struggled with this myself extensively. You have to understand, Christianity sells you on a narrative of your own brokenness so you'll buy their fake solution, which is grace through Jesus. This "solution" may make you feel good, but it fundamentally treats none of the problems ailing the human race. Furthermore, by constantly reviling its followers, Christianity erodes one of the most key skills needed in humanity. This is the ability to carefully, confidently think through tough ethical issues and come to robust conclusions, and then act on them. But if you believe you are so broken that nothing you do can really go right, how will you have the confidence to tackle tricky ethical issues? One should doubt one's judgment, but this level of doubt is just counterproductive. One of the things that solidified my choice to leave religion behind was my desire to raise my future children as strong, confident and independent ethical decision-makers.

 

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On one hand, I feel like religion/ faith/ morals are absolutely necessary because of all the evil occurring in this world.

 

Religion clouds morals. It does this by introducing a conflict of interests. On the one hand, you are supposed to love people exactly as they are. On the other hand, it is desperately important that they follow the rules found in this book, even when those rules are arbitrary or even demand that they change core aspects of their identity. One of the things that drove me out of the fold of God was that I found my faith inhibiting my ability to pursue moral courses of action. For example, shouldn't I be able to be happy for my friends who are in a healthy relationship, even if they are unmarried? Yet, they seemed uncomfortable talking about it around me, simply because they knew of my faith.

 

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But more importantly, I'm afraid of going to hell, and being tortured for an eternity because of what I've been told (As well as all of you) for most of our lives.

 

I don't know right away what to say to you on this; I lost faith in hell before I lost faith in Christianity, so I haven't had this struggle the way so many have. But there is a good thread started by SeaJay about this: 

 

 

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Also I'm engaging in homosexuality everything I do is considered an abomination and I'm definitely going to hell.

 

Everything you do is entwined with the beauty of your personality, which is so powerfully good that it comes through even in this post you wrote. Homosexuality is perfectly natural and good. Think about it: you make someone else really, deeply happy! How beautiful is that? You should be proud that you, with your awesome personality, can make that other person so happy.

 

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And yes, much like everyone else, I have issue with an all knowing and loving God willingly sending his children into a pit hole of torture and sorrow.

 

That's because he wouldn't.

 

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I've come to the conclusion that my punishment should come from the consequences of my actions.

 

This is a moving and brilliant example of how any individual, who thinks carefully for herself, can come up with a set of moral principles that are far better and far more just than the ones offered to us by the faith.

 

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If its against it, everything I have ever believed in, or held true is wrong. Most of my life as been lie. Yes, I'm very distraught over this because this in it's essence is a part of me I'm giving up.

 

I understand your pain. This is the one thing that still makes me look back: I lost who I was. I truly loved being a Christian. I led worship sessions. I gave a moving testimony. I was an apologist, and I wrote my own apologetics. I even had ideas (decent ones no less) for several books. Yet what worth was it to me, if my God was not real? That was all that I ever wanted. For him to be really, truly real. And on that count... he disappointed me. But a strong individual must embrace the truth for what it is, and seek the beauty that is to be found in the world that is.

 

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Where will I base my morality from now?

 

I have some ideas. I'm thinking of starting a thread on here to discuss them. I welcome you to join me once I get around to it...

 

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And how about others? Are they now justified in the "evil" deeds they commit if there is no Hell or Heaven?

 

I would argue "No," because doing evil things requires either A) pretending like the pain of others doesn't exist (which is dishonest) or else B) pretending that it doesn't matter (which is immoral).

 

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faith is very important to me, and I don't see myself giving up the belief of a God, but I am contemplating completely letting go of ideas--or at least attempting-- that have been ingrained in me.

 

I'll admit, Deism is pretty badass.

 

As for letting go of ideas that have been ingrained in you, we on Ex-Christian.net call that "deconversion." And we are a pretty effective deconversion support group, which can help with that if you want to pursue it here.

 

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And maybe I am trying to justify homosexuality, what of it?

 

You should be proud of the beautiful person that you are. I can tell, just by the way you write, that you are a thoughtful and empathic person. Your homosexuality, as a core piece of your identity, is also a major piece of that beauty. 

 

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Why not let us learn, and grow instead of being thrown into fire and brimstone?

 

Yet another brilliant example is provided to us by Prowl, who proves to us how smart girls who think on their own can produce a better system of ethics than faith does.

 

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 Listen, I am completely open to the idea that I may be wrong? But am I crazy for not wanting to serve someone that may kill me if I disagree? Am I crazy for using the free will that was given to me? Like I said, all I ask of God/ Jesus/ Gandhi that he grant me mercy if I am...

 

This... moves me. Personally, should I turn out to be wrong about Christianity... I believe that I still desire to live in a way that is pleasing to God. I simply have a better idea now of what it means to do that. It means to love others, much as Jesus did. I am no longer constricted by arbitrary and frustrating rules. If I died and was set before the throne of God, I would ask for his grace to cover my failings in a heartbeat. But I don't think that will happen, because if he does exist, he's not that sort of a God; he's probably a more deistic sort of a god.

 

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Alas, I have written too much.

 

Do not say "too much." Say rather, "I have written so much." Then say, "And it is a beautiful thing."  Because you are a brilliant and beautiful person who has expressed herself movingly.

 

Welcome to our community, Prowl. We hope you come often.

[AlienGoddess]

 

 Hello Everyone! Did I catch your attention?

 

My account was recently approved so I figured why not introduce thine self!

 

I've been lurking this forum for a good while, and I have to admit this forum/community is an absolute God send (see what I did there?). Especially during this stage, or period in my life where I'm questioning so much, and literally staggering between the crossroads. Sorry, I don't mean to be poetic, or use over flowery language! Just trying to cover up any grammatical errors in my paragraphs is all... I apologize for that too, ha ha.

 

Anyway, before I get to my point, I'll give you all a brief background of myself. Please brace yourself because I tend to write novels.

 

I, much like everyone, was born into a relatively religious family. My family's ultimate faith of choice has always been Christian--at least the foundation. Yet, in regards to Christian denomination and/or affiliation, my family has gone through several transitions ranging from Catholic to Pentecostal, Protestant, and finally Evangelical (Born Again). Although religion has been a huge component of my life, my family wasn't very consistent when it came to church attendance, or representing the faith. My family life was filled with strife, tension and anxiety growing up. My father was a very angry man who smoked, drank and occasionally did drugs. Thankfully, he stopped shortly after my younger sister was born(mainly because my mother gave him an ultimatum.) However, he's been an avid weed smoker--and currently still--through out his whole life. It wasn't only my father, but my mom was pretty stagnant in her faith too. Hell, my whole family didn't portray the lives of wholesome Christians with their drinking, swearing and partying. As you can see, I haven't had the best examples of "good" Christian models in my life, but I digress.

 

I didn't really take church seriously until high school. Because of a certain event that had happened to me in the past, I felt like I needed to be cleansed. In fact, it was quite a bit of stuff that lead me to accept Christ during the time. I absolutely hated myself, and was bullied in school, not severely, but enough to not like myself. It was a lot, and I realize I'm revealing a little bit here, but in order to understand my current struggle I feel the need to overshare, ha ha.

 

The church accepted me and the rest is history. I got really involved in church: bible studies, youth group, ministries. You name it. I even helped and attended a Christian bible study group in my High school. I was very devout for almost four years. While I had to admit, my negative feelings of myself did wane down, life was still as complicated. Perhaps even more complicated since becoming a hard core Christian. Before, I used to believe that life as "born again" Christian would be easy compared to "sinners". When I say easy, I refer to how one dealt with their issues. Until I learned that regardless of your beliefs, way of life, or whatever, none of us our exempt from life struggles or missing the mark.

However, back in Church, I remember the pastor talking about how life is ten times harder as christian, and I always curious as to why. I soon realized why during those four years.

 

Now, I'm not going to go into detail ,but all I can say after I graduated I realized that being a Christian wasn't all it was cracked up to be. Majority of these feelings stemmed from my disappointment with the church I was in. While there were many good people in the church--including the pastor(s)--I felt unwelcome there. I was often times ignored, or not taken seriously. It's quite a bit and I wish I could go into detail, but in short the church had a lot of cliques. And I saw that many people--especially after I left--were just as confused and messed up as me, ha ha.

 

Anyway, when I went to college, I just flat out left, and never came back. And out of all four years of being there, not one has reached out to me. Including the Christian club at my High school. I did remain in contact with one friend whom I still talk too, but majority of my "friends" went about their separate ways. But that's expected of High school really nothing Christian or secular about that.

 

Ok, let's get to the juicy part. So yes, since I left the church, and furthermore my previous way of life, I have engaged in things I never thought I would do. For example, having sex, drinking and smoking. Yes, I was slowly regressing into a "heathen", but nothing most of y'all haven't done. While I wasn't a practicing Christian, I did very much still adhere and believe many principles from the bible. Thinking one day, maybe I'll return to my previous way of life.

 

And then...

 

I began to explore my sexuality, and started messing with women. For the past two years I've been curious, and eventually the desire continued to grow. Just a side note, but I've always had a streak of bi-ness, or attraction to women since I was five. It was never prevalent during my youth (I mean I'm still young now) but it was always there lingering. Up until last year, I've always dated and slept with men until I took a risk and started dating women. And it was both frightening and exciting and unlike anything I have ever done or felt before.

 

Now, I am currently dating a woman, and the relationship while not perfect, is probably the best one I've had thus far. Yes, I did get a whole lot of shit for it from my immediate family, and it wasn't easy. And most of my Christian friends still are unaware of my girlfriend, but that's another story.

 

Anyway, the point of this rant was to bring to light this certain dilemma I have, and I thank anyone whose read up to this point.

While I'm still not practicing, I do find myself feeling bouts of guilt on occasion. And while I have felt guilty for not being a die hard Christian before, it has never overwhelmed me this much after I started dating my girlfriend. It's like I go through these cycles where I'm ok, life is good, etc and then feeling anxious, scared, ashamed. It fucking sucks.

 

 On one hand, I feel like religion/ faith/ morals are absolutely necessary because of all the evil occurring in this world. For instance, take a look at the current political climate we all find ourselves in. It's a total mess. But more importantly, I'm afraid of going to hell, and being tortured for an eternity because of what I've been told (As well as all of you) for most of our lives. If we don't accept Jesus and follow his ways we go to hell; Also I'm engaging in homosexuality everything I do is considered an abomination and I'm definitely going to hell. I don't know about you all, but that's fucking terrifying. So yeah, I can't help, but constantly worry about that.

 

Yet, on the other hand, I have no intention of joining a church anytime soon. In fact, I frankly dislike religion a lot now. I understand faith, and spirituality, but the religious dogma, rituals and tradition I refuse to accept or follow. Even though, I understand the role it plays in society when it comes to order...

 

Overall, at the moment, I'm just enjoying my life. Sure, it's not perfect but I'm currently in the best shape mentally, and personally. Despite my constant mental battles with my identity(via religion, spirituality etc). And yes, much like everyone else, I have issue with an all knowing and loving God willingly sending his children into a pit hole of torture and sorrow. I've come to the conclusion that my punishment should come from the consequences of my actions. If I'm wrong, the only thing I ask him is he kill me painlessly and quickly. I would rather that than be sent to eternal damnation. I thought it was all about character and how we treat people.

 

Also, I hear about these inconsistencies in the bible. I can think of maybe one or two examples, but  I never sought after the truth. I think I'm afraid of what the answer may be? Whether it supports the bible or not, I'm afraid of both outcomes. Because if it supports it, than I am willingly walking  into my own death sentence. If its against it, everything I have ever believed in, or held true is wrong. Most of my life as been lie. Yes, I'm very distraught over this because this in it's essence is a part of me I'm giving up. Where will I base my morality from now? And how about others? Are they now justified in the "evil" deeds they commit if there is no Hell or Heaven? As I stated, faith is very important to me, and I don't see myself giving up the belief of a God, but I am contemplating completely letting go of ideas--or at least attempting-- that have been ingrained in me. For example, the idea of hell...

 

And maybe I am trying to justify homosexuality, what of it? But, I would like to believe if we were given free will, unless we don't use it against others, or ourselves, why should I be punished for it? Why not let us learn, and grow instead of being thrown into fire and brimstone?

 

 Listen, I am completely open to the idea that I may be wrong? But am I crazy for not wanting to serve someone that may kill me if I disagree? Am I crazy for using the free will that was given to me? Like I said, all I ask of God/ Jesus/ Gandhi that he grant me mercy if I am...

 

I have so many questions...

 

Alas, I have written too much. I do thank anyone for staying until the very end; I appreciate it! Also, any feedback, advice, tips and tricks is really welcomed!

Right now, I'm trying to find a community of people that are in the same rut as me. Unfortunately there are no local meetups of ex-christian folks, so I have to settle for this lovely site.

 

Toodles!

--Prowl

Hear! Hear!