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Christians: Why would an all-good God base our salvation from Hell on whether or not we believe in a 2,000-year-old supernatural story?

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No one is condemned except for their rejection of Jesus Christ.

 

So then what happens to the person who never gets to hear of Jesus Christ but has lived their whole life worshiping idols?

 

 

 

Yes, God did create a nation of His own, the Jews.   And later, the Gentiles were offered the same salvation due to Israel's rejection of God.  Yes, Israel and Europe has been the focus of God's attention.   The other nations have been turned over to their false beliefs and idols.

 

I'm not sure if you realise what you are doing here. You are taking historical data - i.e. the spread of Christianity through Eurpoe then attributing that to god. What leads you to this conclusion? Why is the spread of Islam (at times a very rapid spread using the same methods) not gods hand. 

 

So God is racist then? - he appears to like powerful white people based on they way gods hand seems to have moved.

 

 

 

 

I see.  Because people believe differently than you, they are slaves.    There is some truth to what you say.  I am a 'slave' of God and Christ.     I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

You entirely missed my point here. I said that humanity are slaves to mental processes - we all are. Not just the ones that think differently than me, but everyone including myself. What I try and do is be aware of the factors that may cause me to belief in things that are not true and overcome them. You may be a slave, and I'm pretty sure Paul talks about this. However answer me this: How does one be a slave to God, while being his child, and fearing God while giving him unconditional love? We are talking about mutually exclusive things here.

 

 

 

I think I have said before, the Christian believes and knows.  It is not believing and not knowing.  It is believing and knowing.     It doesn't ring hollow to me.   Because I know.  

 

Again I think you are missing the point of what circular reasoning is. You are believing, that much is certain, but your knowledge is false. You think you know, you are absolutely certain you know, but you are almost certainly wrong. I think there is a famous quote that goes "Those who are most certain, are almost certainly wrong"

 

 

It rings hollow to you because you don't know.  And, don't want to know

 

We were talking about circular reasoning and the logic behind your statements ringing hollow, not any truth of any position.

 

However I can tell God is not talking to you, and I can tell you are asserting that which you don't know - you say "And (you) don't want to know". At this point I know you are full of christian crock because at some point every christian I speak to speaks this revealing load of codswallop. You see I do want to know. I haven't spent the last year searching because I don't want to know. I do want to know. And I know that see. I am just not convinced that what you are saying is true. You have given me no good reason to believe you, and having no good reason to believe you is a pretty good reason not to believe you! 

 

 

 

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No, I will never be like you.   God and Christ have been with throughout my whole life.   My experiences, and many have been very difficult, lead me only to the realization of God's love for us and His all watchful eye over us.  

 

 

 

 

I'm glad you are happy with your life.  I certainly see the end game as different than you do.  But I know if one does not see themselves as a sinner, then they don't need a Saviouir.  But, just keep these things in mind.  We never know what the future here holds.  

 

 

Just want to note that interesting bit of contradiction. Stranger says he will never be like me, an ex-believer. Seems fully confident of that thing, but then a few posts later cautions all of us that we never know what the future holds.  That's interesting.

 

 

I don't operate on feelings.  I know the Bible is the Word of God, because I know.   Feelings exempt.

 

You don't need to trust me.   You don't need to believe anything.   I am simply telling you what I believe as a Christian.  

 

Stranger

Also objectively wrong. We know enough brain science to know quite firmly that everybody operates on feelings, almost all of the time. Our more rational thinking mostly exists to justify our feelings after the fact. For you and everybody.

 

So I don't trust you, not because I think you are lying, but because (again) I think your feelings and your desires make it imperative that you not let yourself know what's really going on with you. You keep asserting that you aren't trying to accomplish anything by being here, that you're just telling us what you believe--but that makes no sense. You could be doing all kinds of other things. You could be out feeding the poor, or singing praise songs, or whatever you get up to for fun, or driving for Uber, or campaigning for a candidate, or whatever. You choose to spend a fair chunk of time here--so to you, that must be potentially accomplishing something. Maybe you really don't care what we do or don't believe, but you care about something.

 

Also: I note you keep asserting your faith in your supposedly-inerrant bible, but you breezed completely past my observation that this "inerrant" bible generates a multitude of contradictory interpretations among people who genuinely are seeking to use it to understand God's will. That means "inerrant" or not, it ain't doing the job. Which is one of many reasons we have no faith (that is, trust) in your bible-god's ability to communicate effectively.

 

But you don't have to believe anything. I am simply telling you what I have become convinced of as an ex-christian.

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You are JUST as vile as the Muslims you despise as you use FEAR (as they do) as the main crux of your message! 

 

As far as who makes up the Abrahamic faiths I suggest you do a little more study outside your indoctrinated egg shell!

 

Another way to put it: If Christians can understand why Muslims killing people for not converting to Islam is evil, then they can understand why their doctrine of hell is evil.

 

 

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No, I will never be like you.   God and Christ have been with throughout my whole life.   My experiences, and many have been very difficult, lead me only to the realization of God's love for us and His all watchful eye over us. 

 

I had already replied to this once by pointing out that I used to think the same way when I was a Christian. Now I thought I would share with you, Stranger, a couple things I wrote when I was a Christian.

 

Here is the first one:

 

 

The  Cross  of  Christ?

                With Good Friday and Easter quickly approaching, it is befitting that we followers of Jesus reflect on Christ and His cross. But, then again, was it really His cross?

                Let’s go back in time to Jesus’ trial before Pilate (Roman governor over Judea). By this time Jesus had already been betrayed by one of His own disciples (Mark 14:43-52). He had had His mock trial before the Jewish Sanhedrin (Mark 14:53-65). He had been taken to Pilate, who sent Him to Herod (Roman ruler over Galilee), who in turn sent Him back to Pilate! (Luke 23:1-12)

                The chief priests had been accusing Jesus of many things (Mark 15:3), including the accusation that Jesus was subverting the nation to overthrow Roman authority (Luke 23:2). Pilate responded, saying, “You brought me this man as one who was inciting the people to rebellion. I have examined him in your presence and have found no basis for your charges against him. Neither has Herod, for he sent him back to us; as you can see, he has done nothing deserving death. Therefore, I will punish him and then release him” (Luke 23:14-17). Pilate and Herod had both found Jesus innocent.  But what happens next is quite an interesting scene:
 

MARK 15:6-15

                Now it was the custom at the feast to release a prisoner whom the people requested.  A man called Barabbas was in prison with the insurrectionists who had committed murder in the uprising.  The crowd came up and asked Pilate to do for them what he usually did.

                “Do you want me to release to you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate, knowing it was out of envy that the chief priests had handed Jesus over to him.  But the chief priests stirred up the crowd to have Pilate release Barabbas instead.

                “What shall I do, then, with the one you call the king of the Jews?” Pilate asked them.

                “Crucify him!” they shouted.

                “Why?  What crime has he committed?” asked Pilate.

                But they shouted all the louder, “Crucify him!”

                Wanting to satisfy the crowd, Pilate released Barabbas to them.  He had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.
 

                This scene never ceases to amaze me. Here Jesus, who had been falsely accused of trying to overthrow Roman authority but declared innocent of such charges, is sentenced to death by crucifixion. At the same time, Barabbas, who was known to be guilty of the very thing Jesus was accused of (as well as murder), is set free! Barabbas, whose name literally means “son of the father” (bar = son of; abba = father), has been set free from his imprisonment and death sentence by the substitution of the Son of our Heavenly Father! The cross that Jesus was crucified on was actually the cross of Barabbas!

                This happened because Pilate was apparently concerned that the crowd may get out of hand, but it was all in keeping with God’s predetermined plan (Acts 2:23) to bring about redemption. Just like Barabbas was guilty of sin, so we “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). Just as Barabbas was in prison, “Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin” (Galatians 3:22). Just like Barabbas was on death row, so also “the wages of [our] sin is death” (Romans 6:23). Just as Barabbas was set free by the substitution of Jesus, who shed His blood in his place, so has Christ “freed us from our sins by his blood” (Revelation 1:5). So, not only was it Barabbas’ cross, but also yours and mine! Jesus was crucified on our cross! We deserved to be hanging there in agony on that cross!

                As Jesus was hanging on the cross, He was continually insulted and mocked. “Come down from the cross and save yourself!” the crowd jeered (Mark 15:30). Little did they know that it wasn’t Jesus who was in need of saving. 

               Though it is conceivable that someone might sacrifice his life for the sake of a “good man” (Romans 5:7), “God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8). “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21). “We have redemption through his blood” (Ephesians 1:7); “we have now been justified by his blood” and “saved from God’s wrath” (Romans 5:9). 

               Praise be to our dear Savior for taking the cross of Barabbas, your cross and my cross, and making “the atoning sacrifice… for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). Praise also be to God that the story doesn’t end with the cross and the tomb! Jesus rose from the dead (Matthew 28:1-7; Acts 2:32)! And, “just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life” (Romans 6:4). “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Corinthians 5:17). Amen.

 

 

Also, since you've mentioned before that you don't believe we're "ex-christians," the other piece I want to share shows that I thought the exact same thing when I was a Christian. Here it is:

 

 

Can A Christian Lose His/Her Salvation?

            The Bible tells us that we were saved by grace, through faith (Ephesians 2:8). We were buried with Christ through baptism into death in order that we may "live a new life" (Romans 6:4) and that "the body of sin might be done away with" (Romans 6:6). And, since "our old self was crucified with Him" (Romans 6:6), we have been "freed from sin" (Romans 6:7). "Since Christ was raised from the dead, He cannot die again" (Romans 6:9), and we are to, "in the same way," count ourselves "dead to sin but alive to God" (Romans 6:11), and to not let sin master us, because we are "not under law, but under grace" (Romans 6:14). Christ came to "set us free" from the law (Galatians 5:1).

            We also read that no one who continues in a lifestyle of sin has "either seen Him or known Him" (1 John 3:6). "We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" (Romans 6:2) "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him" (1 John 3:9). These are clearly referring to a deliberate continuance in sin. Of course, this is not to say that Christians never commit any sin, for even the Apostle Paul had struggles with sin. It is significant to note, though, that the sins he struggled with were not things he wanted to do, but rather were things he actually hated (Romans 7:15). Why did he hate sin? It was his desire to please God, for he was "crucified with Christ" and he no longer lived, but Christ lived in him (Galatians 2:20).

            Though we struggle with sin, we are clothed in Christ's righteousness (1 Corinthians 1:30) and thus are "made perfect forever" (Hebrews 10:14). This righteousness is "by faith from first to last" (Romans 1:17), meaning that it begins and finishes with faith rather than works. Since Jesus is the "Author and Perfecter of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2), it is God who makes us "stand firm in Christ" (2 Corinthians 1:21). The believer is marked in Christ with the "seal" (denoting ownership) of the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13), who is a "deposit guaranteeing our inheritance" (Ephesians 1:14).

            Jesus Himself said, "Whoever hears My Word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not be condemned" (John 5:24). As such, eternal life is something that the true believer presently possesses, and one cannot come to an end of something that is eternal. Jesus also said that those to whom He has given eternal life "shall never perish" (John 10:28). He said that His sheep listen to His voice and follow Him, and He knows those who belong to Him (John 10:27). Indeed, nothing in all creation can separate true Christians from "the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:38-39).

            Scripture tells us that "those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son" (Romans 8:29), and those who were predestined He also called, justified and glorified (Romans 8:30). Therefore, we can say with confidence that the believer is a "new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!" (2 Corinthians 5:17) Paul goes as far as to say that we who are born again are already "seated with [Christ] in the heavenly realms" (Ephesians 2:6).

            Being this new creation clothed in Christ's righteousness, our faith requires action because "faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead" (James 2:17). If it really is faith, won't it be evidenced in actions? "Every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit" (Matthew 7:17-18). A true, regenerated believer is the only one who can really, from the heart, bear good (Godly) fruit. In fact, our whole purpose is "to do good works" (Ephesians 2:10) and to "bear fruit to God" (Romans 7:4).

            Although some say they know someone who used to be a Christian but now isn't, the Bible tells us that "if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us" (1 John 2:19). There is a clear distinction between those who "shrink back and are destroyed" and those who "believe and are saved" (Hebrews 10:39). If we do not "hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first," then we have not "come to share in Christ" (Hebrews 3:14).

            Jesus plainly said, "First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean" (Matthew 23:26). And again, the Bible tells us, "No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him" (1 John 3:6), speaking of a deliberate (defiant) continuance in sin.

            The problem with modern churchianity is that we seem to have forgotten the true meaning of repentance. We seem to think that quoting a "sinner's prayer" and promising to do better will save us. However, our focus is on us praying and on us doing, but not really on what Christ has already done. But Jesus said, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" (John 6:44).

            When we truly begin to grasp just who Christ is -- God the Son (Hebrews 1:8) -- and the fact that any righteous act of ours is but "filthy rags" to God (Isaiah 64:6), we begin to realize that we are nothing! The "poor in spirit" are the ones to whom is given "the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:3). We must realize how spiritually bankrupt we are before God (Luke 18:10-14). How can we try to stand on anything we've done, even if it is reciting a "sinner's prayer"? Without Christ's sacrifice, such a prayer wouldn't do anything!

            Indeed, the Bible makes it abundantly clear that God knows who are His, and they are forever His. As the picture Jesus gave of a Shepherd and His sheep (John 10:11), so is the body of Christ. The sheep are totally dependent on the Shepherd (John 10:5), and no one can snatch them out of His hand (John 10:28). When one wanders, He goes and finds it (Matthew 18:12)! And when He finds it, it will follow Him (John 10:27).

            In the one who is truly born again, "God's seed remains; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.... Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God" (1 John 3:9-10). "Everyone born of God overcomes the world" (1 John 5:4). God's grace doesn't run out, but it will change us.

 

So, you see, Stranger, I used to be a lot like you. Just like you, I used to fully believe in the substitutionary atonement of Jesus and that the true believer was forever changed. Just like you, I thought I felt the Holy Spirit dwelling in me. Just like you, I was fully convinced that Christianity was absolute truth and that there was no way that I would ever stop believing.

 

Yet, now I am one of the ex-christians whom I used to swear didn't really exist.

 

 

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If there is a copyist mistake, then you can call it a copyist error.   

 

Stranger

 

How can something with errors be inerrant? ;)

 

I get where you're coming from, though. I used to think along the same lines. I accepted that there could be copyist mistakes that would lead to very minor inaccuracies, but I was convinced that the message of the Bible was unaffected, and therefore it was still inerrant in that regard. I also bought into the apologetics claim that translators are able to work through most of those copyist errors and supply us with a Bible that is 99.99% what was originally written.

 

However, there are serious problems with such claims.

 

First, we don't have the original writings to compare to, so there's no way to arrive at any calculation of how close our current Bibles are to the original writings. The 99.99% figure is nothing more than an arbitrary number selected for convenience.

 

Second, we know from manuscript evidence that more has changed than just copyist errors. Things have been added to the text, such as the ending of Mark and the passage in John about the woman caught in adultery, as well as other things. There are also internal problems within the Bible, as well as problems in the Bible with what has been discovered from history, archaeology and science, all of which undermine its believability.

 

Now, I know you disregard all external evidence that disagrees with the Bible, so I want to focus on the internal problems in the Bible. I want to ask what you think of certain categories of problems in the Bible, but I strongly recommend that you give serious consideration before you respond. Make sure that you are certain of what you say in your reply. As a forewarning, you may end up regretting it if you don't.

 

So, with that in mind, what do you think of the following Bible problems that undermine inerrancy?

 

1. Contradictions: There are things said in the Bible that contradict things said elsewhere in the Bible.

 

2. Fabricated Prophetic Fulfillments: There are claims of fulfilled prophecy in the Bible where the verses being quoted are taken completely out of context. The original OT writings were not saying anything about what the NT writers claimed.

 

3. Other Prophetic Issues: There are failed predictions in the Bible.

 

4. Cruelties and Injustices: There are supposedly divinely sanctioned cruelties and injustices in the Bible (you have cited cruelty as a reason to reject the Quran, so what about the Bible?).

 

5. Divine Deception: The Bible depicts God as being deceptive in a few places.

 

6. Absurdities: There are things in the Bible that clearly don't line up with reality.

 

7. Divine Inspiration: There are things stated in the Bible that undermine the Christian claim that the whole Bible is divinely inspired.

 

Please address each issue if you are confident that you have adequately assessed them.

 

 

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How can something with errors be inerrant? ;)

 

I get where you're coming from, though. I used to think along the same lines. I accepted that there could be copyist mistakes that would lead to very minor inaccuracies, but I was convinced that the message of the Bible was unaffected, and therefore it was still inerrant in that regard. I also bought into the apologetics claim that translators are able to work through most of those copyist errors and supply us with a Bible that is 99.99% what was originally written.

 

However, there are serious problems with such claims.

 

First, we don't have the original writings to compare to, so there's no way to arrive at any calculation of how close our current Bibles are to the original writings. The 99.99% figure is nothing more than an arbitrary number selected for convenience.

 

Second, we know from manuscript evidence that more has changed than just copyist errors. Things have been added to the text, such as the ending of Mark and the passage in John about the woman caught in adultery, as well as other things. There are also internal problems within the Bible, as well as problems in the Bible with what has been discovered from history, archaeology and science, all of which undermine its believability.

 

Now, I know you disregard all external evidence that disagrees with the Bible, so I want to focus on the internal problems in the Bible. I want to ask what you think of certain categories of problems in the Bible, but I strongly recommend that you give serious consideration before you respond. Make sure that you are certain of what you say in your reply. As a forewarning, you may end up regretting it if you don't.

 

So, with that in mind, what do you think of the following Bible problems that undermine inerrancy?

 

1. Contradictions: There are things said in the Bible that contradict things said elsewhere in the Bible.

 

2. Fabricated Prophetic Fulfillments: There are claims of fulfilled prophecy in the Bible where the verses being quoted are taken completely out of context. The original OT writings were not saying anything about what the NT writers claimed.

 

3. Other Prophetic Issues: There are failed predictions in the Bible.

 

4. Cruelties and Injustices: There are supposedly divinely sanctioned cruelties and injustices in the Bible (you have cited cruelty as a reason to reject the Quran, so what about the Bible?).

 

5. Divine Deception: The Bible depicts God as being deceptive in a few places.

 

6. Absurdities: There are things in the Bible that clearly don't line up with reality.

 

7. Divine Inspiration: There are things stated in the Bible that undermine the Christian claim that the whole Bible is divinely inspired.

 

Please address each issue if you are confident that you have adequately assessed them.

 

 

 

I just wanted to follow up on @Citsonga's terrific post with another thing to consider:

 

Consider how many different issues there are with the Bible. There are so many different issues stacked up against the one source you consistently use to explain life around you and so little reason to believe that it contains actual truth. It would be one thing to ignore mild suspicions that your significant other is cheating. It would be another to see piece after piece of evidence that they are cheating on you and still choose to ignore it.

 

It would be one thing if the Bible had only a few questionable "isolated" incidents. But this just isn't the case, the historical data is faulty, the origins of the text are questionable, the morality is questionable, the logic is questionable, it goes against a lot of modern science, there are documented untruths, there are inconsistencies in the scripture from beginning to end.....that is a LOT to answer for on your part. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, has feathers like a duck, has webbed feet and a bill like a duck, lays eggs like a duck, if everything that you have around you reasonably points to an animal being a duck in particular....is it a swan just because you say it is on the premise of faith?

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Of course I am going to Say God did in the Bible.   But, to explain, eternal death is not a decree really.  It is a product of sin.    This has to do with the righteousness of God.  God is righteous and will never be otherwise.  So disobedience immediately calls for a judgement from God.  It cannot be otherwise.  His nature demands it.

 

Stranger

 

Again, Christians talking on behalf of their imaginary non-entity.

 

 

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Again, Christians talking on behalf of their imaginary non-entity.

 

 

 

Mind blown. O_o

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This is the crux of the "good news":  god created you just the way you are; but he refuses to accept you just the way you are.  Who the fuck needs a god like that?

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This is the crux of the "good news":  god created you just the way you are; but he refuses to accept you just the way you are.  Who the fuck needs a god like that?

 

This could be rephrased to read... God refuses to accept you the way he made you.

 

Romans 9 : 11 - 13.

 

11 Before the children had been born or had done anything good or bad, Rebekah was told that the older child would serve the younger one. This was said to Rebekah so that God’s plan would remain a matter of his choice, 

12 a choice based on God’s call and not on anything people do. 

13 The Scriptures say, “I loved Jacob, but I hated Esau.”

 

Christians say that we send ourselves to hell.  That going there is our choice.  That eternal torment is our decision and not God's.

 

Yet God didn't hate Esau because of anything he did.  Instead, God has always hated him.  God hates him eternally.

 

So, who's decision sent Esau to hell? 

 

 

 

 

 

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This could be rephrased to read... God refuses to accept you the way he made you.

 

Romans 9 : 11 - 13.

 

11 Before the children had been born or had done anything good or bad, Rebekah was told that the older child would serve the younger one. This was said to Rebekah so that God’s plan would remain a matter of his choice, 

12 a choice based on God’s call and not on anything people do. 

13 The Scriptures say, “I loved Jacob, but I hated Esau.”

 

Christians say that we send ourselves to hell.  That going there is our choice.  That eternal torment is our decision and not God's.

 

Yet God didn't hate Esau because of anything he did.  Instead, God has always hated him.  God hates him eternally.

 

So, who's decision sent Esau to hell? 

 

Also bearing in mind passages in Isiah and in the NT where it is stated that God sends a "strong" delusion that their eyes might be blinded so they reject God so he does not have to heal them.

 

Paul also makes mention of being chosen: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"

 

Therefore, combined with other biblical versus there is nothing to back up a rejection by unbelievers, but plenty to back up God playing favorites with his children. (Are we not all children of god - some of which are gonna burn baby burn?)

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Also bearing in mind passages in Isiah and in the NT where it is stated that God sends a "strong" delusion that their eyes might be blinded so they reject God so he does not have to heal them.

 

Paul also makes mention of being chosen: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"

 

Therefore, combined with other biblical versus there is nothing to back up a rejection by unbelievers, but plenty to back up God playing favorites with his children. (Are we not all children of god - some of which are gonna burn baby burn?)

 

LF,

 

You just have to have faith.  By faith you can believe that even though God hates Esau eternally, there is no darkness in him at all.

 

1 John 1 : 5

 

 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

 

But if you use reason and logic to try and understand scripture, you will go astray!

 

Reason and logic will tell you that if God is light, then his eternal hatred for Esau can't be darkness - it must be light.

 

So God's hate is God's light.

 

Do you see how reason and logic can lead you into error?

 

Use faith, not reason.  Use faith, not logic.

 

Don't think - just believe!

 

 

 

 

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LF,

 

You just have to have faith.  By faith you can believe that even though God hates Esau eternally, there is no darkness in him at all.

 

1 John 1 : 5

 

 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

 

But if you use reason and logic to try and understand scripture, you will go astray!

 

Reason and logic will tell you that if God is light, then his eternal hatred for Esau can't be darkness - it must be light.

 

So God's hate is God's light.

 

Do you see how reason and logic can lead you into error?

 

Use faith, not reason.  Use faith, not logic.

 

Don't think - just believe!

 

 

 

 

 

Short answer: No

 

@bornagainathiest christian alter ego :D

 

Explain to me then this verse:

 

Isaiah 45:7King James Version (KJV)

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

 

 

Actually I should have quoted that to Stranger.... his assertion that God did not create evil is quite clearly wrong, and one does not need to do a philosophical and logical walk through of the Eden story to show that - the bible says so.

 

The bible says it and I believe it.... that's what the Christian says isn't it BAA?

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Do you Know it or do you Believe it? Knowing and believing mean different things.

 

I KNOW that Spiderman is as real as Jesus. I KNOW because I KNOW. That's all I need, right? As I SAY so shall it BE. As you say, so shall it be. Correct? 

 

 

 

 

 

The Christians 'faith' and 'belief' are not the same as the secular terms.  I can say to someone I believe it may rain today.  And it may or may not rain.   I can say to someone I have faith that this weld will hold.   But, it may or may not.  

 

When one comes to Christ, believes, It is not a 'may' or 'may not' be so.   'Belief' and 'knowing' work simultaneously.    

 

One cannot make themselves believe.  You either do or you don't.   If one just says 'I believe' but they don't, then they don't.  And they are not saved.  

 

Well, I would say the Christian knows because of the work of the Holy Spirit upon his spirit.  You would 'know' Jesus isn't real because...?

 

Stranger

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So your family didn't worship Jesus? Your family didn't go to church? Your family taught you nothing of Christianity?

 

No.  I 'was' raised to know Jesus Christ, to go to church, to trust God and Christ.   But as I said earlier, that is because God placed me in that family to know Him.   Christians are not Christians because they are raised that way.  They are raised that way because God wants His people living amongst His people and being taught His ways.  

 

Stranger

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Hey, Stranger, do you accept computer science? Electron theory? Do you believe computers are real? haha

 

I don't disregard the work of science.   I disregard the work of science when it conflicts with the Bible.

 

Stranger

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The basis for Christianity is original sin where people are supposed to be saved by God from the curse that this same God put on everyone. He is pitting himself against himself without our help.

 

He gives us the original curse us then later on wants to save us? LoL. But it requires this convoluted process of killing some guy on a cross cuz he can't just wave  his magic wand and fix the original screw up. That ridiculous. And he changed his mind about that curse. He is not unchanging.

 

Unchanging does not mean omnipotent. Omnipotent does not mean unchanging. But an INABILITY to do something, like change one's mind, for instance means one is not omnipotent. If God is without the ability to change, he's not omnipotent. Is your God missing the ability to change?

 

 

 

I don't think I would call the original sin a curse from God.   It is a result, but not a pronounced curse.  Actually mankind was not cursed by God.   The serpent was and the earth was.  

 

If God ceases to be God, then He is neither omnipotent, omnipresent, or omniscience.   He is not God.    What you are asking is for God to cease to be God.  And He can't.  

 

Stranger

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Yet, when you write here Stranger, all we can see are your words.

 

If you don't know whether to believe if General Relativity contradicts the Bible or not and I ask you to declare for or against, what will we see in your reply?

 

Will we see the words of a man who believes he is bring guided by God on this question?

 

or...

 

Will we see the words of a man who is being guided by God on this question?

 

 

 

I don't need to know all about General Relativity to believe the Bible.   I don't need to be a scientist to believe the Bible.  

 

Concerning the words I have just written, you are seeing the words of a man guided by God as these words reflect the teaching of the Bible.

 

Stranger

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I don't need to know all about General Relativity to believe the Bible.   I don't need to be a scientist to believe the Bible.  

 

Concerning the words I have just written, you are seeing the words of a man guided by God as these words reflect the teaching of the Bible.

 

Stranger

 

But do you know if General Relativity (GR) contradicts the Bible or not, Stranger?

 

You are against science that disagrees with the Bible, but for science that agrees with it.  

 

So, does GR agree or disagree with the Bible?

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I don't disregard the work of science.   I disregard the work of science when it conflicts with the Bible.

 

Stranger

 

And how do you know when science does that, Stranger?

 

Also, how do you know when you are using something that relies on science that conflicts with the Bible?

 

 

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No.  I 'was' raised to know Jesus Christ, to go to church, to trust God and Christ.   But as I said earlier, that is because God placed me in that family to know Him.   Christians are not Christians because they are raised that way.  They are raised that way because God wants His people living amongst His people and being taught His ways.  

 

Stranger

 

And can what you've outlined above be in any way demonstrated to us to different to how a Muslim child would be raised?

 

Please do not rely on faith in your reply, Stranger.

 

Doing that would be another of your circular arguments.

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     Great.  Then the answer is, according to the words of god himself, sin is something that a person can master themselves.  Nothing else it required.

 

     So Eve made another error.  She's really bad at understanding things, poor gal.

 

     However, "seed" lines make no sense whatsoever.  It simply says "seed" which is tantamount to offspring.  What a "seed line" is I have no idea.  That is anachronistic.  It would mean projecting backwards.  For Eve, looking forward, all her kids were "seed lines" weren't they?  She had a kid and it was going to also have kids and so on, therefore, a "seed line."  It makes no sense to say anything more about her lack of ability to know that another kid would be born and that would be the actual "seed line."

 

     Your use of this term has an expectation within it.  That Eve should have an offspring knowing that their lineage would eventually culminate, at some point, with someone or something.  But nowhere is that established.  She had no knowledge of such a thing so no expectation can be imposed upon her.

 

     Your argument that she knew that something was up because of v3:15 doesn't hold up.  The verse simple states that her offspring and the serpents offspring, both sets of offspring...not just a single person from her offspring against the serpent but her offspring and the offspring of the serpent, will be at odds.  And the offspring of Eve will hit them in the head while the offspring of the serpent will bite them on the heal.  You have to jump through some hoops to make this mean what you'd like it to mean and for Eve to understand it as you'd understand it.  Where does Eve gain this information as it is not in Genesis?

 

     Skins do come from animals.  People also come from people.  But in Genesis we're told that both people and animals can be magically spoken into existence.  We're also told people can also come from the ribs of other people.  So when god makes clothes does this actual mean god has to make them like you or I would have to make them?  Because I cannot speak animals or people into existing or make rib women.  I suppose I could reduce god to my level when it comes to making clothing but I don't see why I should after he literally made every single solitary thing that exists in some other way.

 

     But we went down your path.  We did reduce your omnipotent god to our level.  And you ignored what it would actually take to complete the task at hand.  Do you think god did all those things?  Built a proper alter?  Mined ore or found the proper tools to create a knife?  Made a fire from hand?  Tanned the hides?  Made the string to sew the clothes?  All that stuff?  Did god do all those things?  Not using any special powers or angelic assistants, because the text said god did it, but like a human did it because you're saying that he had to go that route to come up with bloody skins to perform his sacerdotal duties.

 

     I said you were resorting to your own form of midrash.  Basically, you're clarifying something in the text (usually using some other text or what have you).  At this point you're using a lot of new testament understanding to try to clarify this Genesis tale.  I understood you didn't read the Midrash and you're not performing actual Midrash.

 

     It's very material.  We're talking about Adam and Eve.  What they knew or at least could know.  And they didn't know one book much less sixty-five books (depending on your time, date and place).

 

     So when the punishment was handed out it was given to Adam, Eve and the serpent.  None, meaning null and/or void, was given to a Satan.  So Eve could not know she was dealing with anything more than a serpent given the whole time all references are made to a serpent and nothing else.

 

     If Satan *was* the serpent then he'd have the curse of the serpent.  He'd crawl on his belly and eat dust.  Does this sound correct?  Or are you only willing to attribute only a portion of the curse to Satan while attributing another portion of the curse to something else like a literal serpent?  If so, where is the evidence in Genesis?  Because that is what Eve would need in order to understand the situation when those words literally left gods mouth.  When god spoke the curse he didn't pause, he didn't say that one part was for a literal serpent while the other part was for the metaphorical serpent.  So how could Eve know?  I addressed this last part above.  You mention all this about jesus.  That somehow Eve should know, somehow, that eventually things would lead to a point where ultimately an offspring of hers would do something.  But nowhere in Genesis is this apparent.

 

     In Genesis it is apparent it is apparent she is dealing with a literal serpent.  The curse is given to a singular serpent.  If this serpent is something more it needs to be explained how this would be made clear to those present how this might be.  It's also unclear as to why god would be reduced to killing animals in a human fashion.  This requires as much Midrashic explanation as the marital explanation I offered.  It also has been shown that god literally contradicts the very concept of "original sin" and states that humans can overcome sin on their own.  Meaning there absolutely no imperative for Eve, or anyone else, to have any special line of "seed" or a belief in any form of salvation present or future.  Doing good is enough for god.  He says so himself.

 

     And, just to finish this off.  Satan was not destroyed at the crucifixion.  None of the gospels say this and if you accept The Revelation then you'd see Satan is around and hangs around for some time.  Now, on the other hand, jesus was very much killed at the crucifixion.  The gospels are quite clear on this.  That's really the whole point of the story.  He dies.  As in dead.  All the way dead.  The point of being dead is so he can be magically resurrected.  This is the opposite of what you're saying.  Nothing happened to Satan and jesus died.  Jesus just got rebooted after a few days.  But so did a bunch of Greeks.  It was how Greeks tended to become gods (ie. demi-gods, heroes, etc.).  I won't say it was common but it wasn't entirely uncommon.  The general pattern was you'd die, you couldn't have bodily decay, then you'd be resurrected with a physical translation (ie. you'd come back to life and appear somewhere else), and if you had certain bodily wounds they stay with you while others could heal or be healed.  Xianity just added the idea of a general resurrection which was largely opposed by other dominant religions of the time.

 

          mwc

 

 

Sin can only be dealt with by God.   Only to the degree that man is in agreement with God, concerning His work in dealing with sin, will sin be controlled in ones life.   But, in this life, it will never be mastered.  

 

The 'Seed' line is important to God.   (Gal. 3:16)  "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made.  He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."   And it travels through a certain Godly lineage.  It doesn't matter how many children Adam and Eve had.  The 'Seed' was going to travel a certain line.  Culminating in Christ.   I have no doubt Eve believed the promise in  (Gen. 3:15)  that the Redeemer would come from the woman's seed.  She demonstrated that in (Gen, 4:1) and (4:25).  Eve is not required to know everything involving this redemption process.   

 

Well, you assume 'magically spoken into existence'.   What God does is not magic but just His work.   It really isn't even 'supernatural' because it is very natural to God.    It says God made clothes of skins.   The process is not mentioned.  It does indicate a process.    I use both Old and New Testament to learn, or clarify any truth found in the Bible.   I am not limited to the book of Genesis, or any one book.    The Bible is One Book.

 

Again, how much Eve knew about Satan and the serpent is immaterial.  All that was required of Adam and Eve was to not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  Obedience was based simply on God's command.   There was no reason for them to obey that,  other than 'God said'    They didn't need the Bible at this time as they were unfallen and had the Word of God that was necessary for them.     I as a Christian, because I have the revelation of the Bible, am not limited to just one book of the Bible.   

 

Satan was defeated at the 'crucifixion'.     His defeat was always centered on the life, death, and resurrection, of the Seed, Jesus Christ.  It is a done deal.  The warfare continues until the time appointed by God.   He allows it to continue as to have those born into His family as He wants and to perfect them in the faith.    He will eventually place Satan in the Lake of Fire.   

 

Stranger

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 And He can't.  

 

Stranger

Thank you for acknowledging, yet again, that god is not omnipotent.

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So then what happens to the person who never gets to hear of Jesus Christ but has lived their whole life worshiping idols?

 

 

I'm not sure if you realise what you are doing here. You are taking historical data - i.e. the spread of Christianity through Eurpoe then attributing that to god. What leads you to this conclusion? Why is the spread of Islam (at times a very rapid spread using the same methods) not gods hand. 

 

So God is racist then? - he appears to like powerful white people based on they way gods hand seems to have moved.

 

 

 

You entirely missed my point here. I said that humanity are slaves to mental processes - we all are. Not just the ones that think differently than me, but everyone including myself. What I try and do is be aware of the factors that may cause me to belief in things that are not true and overcome them. You may be a slave, and I'm pretty sure Paul talks about this. However answer me this: How does one be a slave to God, while being his child, and fearing God while giving him unconditional love? We are talking about mutually exclusive things here.

 

 

 

Again I think you are missing the point of what circular reasoning is. You are believing, that much is certain, but your knowledge is false. You think you know, you are absolutely certain you know, but you are almost certainly wrong. I think there is a famous quote that goes "Those who are most certain, are almost certainly wrong"

 

 

We were talking about circular reasoning and the logic behind your statements ringing hollow, not any truth of any position.

 

However I can tell God is not talking to you, and I can tell you are asserting that which you don't know - you say "And (you) don't want to know". At this point I know you are full of christian crock because at some point every christian I speak to speaks this revealing load of codswallop. You see I do want to know. I haven't spent the last year searching because I don't want to know. I do want to know. And I know that see. I am just not convinced that what you are saying is true. You have given me no good reason to believe you, and having no good reason to believe you is a pretty good reason not to believe you! 

 

 

 

 

All men everywhere have the knowledge of God in them.  And are thus accountable to God.   (Rom.  1:19-20)

 

Yes, God's hand was seen in Christianizing Europe. (Acts 16: 6-10)   Islam is not of God.  Islam has perverted the Bible and changed it.    It was created by Muhammad for a religion to the Arab peoples.   It is actually based on their former idols but conformed to compete with Christianity.   It is not of God's hand because it is contrary to God and the Bible.

 

Well, God chose the Jews.   God blessed and cursed certain of Noah's sons from whom all the races would come from.  God Christianized Europe and not the other peoples.   If that is what you call a racist, then yes God is a racist.   

 

As a child of God I am a slave of God as I have been bought and paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ.  Being a slave doesn't mean God doesn't love me.    And the price He paid speaks to the love He has for His people.   

 

Stranger

 

 

 

 

 

 

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As a child of God I am a slave of God as I have been bought and paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ.  Being a slave doesn't mean God doesn't love me.    And the price He paid speaks to the love He has for His people.   

So it would loving for me to purchase a slave, as long as I pay a high price?

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