Christians: Why would an all-good God base our salvation from Hell on whether or not we believe in a 2,000-year-old supernatural story?

June 26, 2017

Just want to note that interesting bit of contradiction. Stranger says he will never be like me, an ex-believer. Seems fully confident of that thing, but then a few posts later cautions all of us that we never know what the future holds. That's interesting.

Also objectively wrong. We know enough brain science to know quite firmly that everybody operates on feelings, almost all of the time. Our more rational thinking mostly exists to justify our feelings after the fact. For you and everybody.

So I don't trust you, not because I think you are lying, but because (again) I think your feelings and your desires make it imperative that you not let yourself know what's really going on with you. You keep asserting that you aren't trying to accomplish anything by being here, that you're just telling us what you believe--but that makes no sense. You could be doing all kinds of other things. You could be out feeding the poor, or singing praise songs, or whatever you get up to for fun, or driving for Uber, or campaigning for a candidate, or whatever. You choose to spend a fair chunk of time here--so to you, that must be potentially accomplishing something. Maybe you really don't care what we do or don't believe, but you care about something.

Also: I note you keep asserting your faith in your supposedly-inerrant bible, but you breezed completely past my observation that this "inerrant" bible generates a multitude of contradictory interpretations among people who genuinely are seeking to use it to understand God's will. That means "inerrant" or not, it ain't doing the job. Which is one of many reasons we have no faith (that is, trust) in your bible-god's ability to communicate effectively.

But you don't have to believe anything. I am simply telling you what I have become convinced of as an ex-christian.

What I am trying to accomplish here is to give what I believe is true about God and Christ as I have learned from Him and the Bible. That involves only what I know up to this time. There is much I don't know. There are questions I have which I have no answer. There are apparent contradictions which I have no answer for. But as a believer I pursue to find out answers and continue learning.

So, is your being an ex-christian based on feelings?

Stranger

June 26, 2017

I had already replied to this once by pointing out that I used to think the same way when I was a Christian. Now I thought I would share with you, Stranger, a couple things I wrote when I was a Christian.

Here is the first one:

Also, since you've mentioned before that you don't believe we're "ex-christians," the other piece I want to share shows that I thought the exact same thing when I was a Christian. Here it is:

So, you see, Stranger, I used to be a lot like you. Just like you, I used to fully believe in the substitutionary atonement of Jesus and that the true believer was forever changed. Just like you, I thought I felt the Holy Spirit dwelling in me. Just like you, I was fully convinced that Christianity was absolute truth and that there was no way that I would ever stop believing.

Yet, now I am one of the ex-christians whom I used to swear didn't really exist.

Well, as I have said, all I can say is that I don't see it in the Scripture. Do you believe you were incorrect in your doctrine of 'Once Saved Always Saved'?

In other words, were you saved and then not saved? Or were you never saved as now you don't believe any of it, and none of it was ever true?

Stranger

June 26, 2017

How can something with errors be inerrant?

I get where you're coming from, though. I used to think along the same lines. I accepted that there could be copyist mistakes that would lead to very minor inaccuracies, but I was convinced that the message of the Bible was unaffected, and therefore it was still inerrant in that regard. I also bought into the apologetics claim that translators are able to work through most of those copyist errors and supply us with a Bible that is 99.99% what was originally written.

However, there are serious problems with such claims.

First, we don't have the original writings to compare to, so there's no way to arrive at any calculation of how close our current Bibles are to the original writings. The 99.99% figure is nothing more than an arbitrary number selected for convenience.

Second, we know from manuscript evidence that more has changed than just copyist errors. Things have been added to the text, such as the ending of Mark and the passage in John about the woman caught in adultery, as well as other things. There are also internal problems within the Bible, as well as problems in the Bible with what has been discovered from history, archaeology and science, all of which undermine its believability.

Now, I know you disregard all external evidence that disagrees with the Bible, so I want to focus on the internal problems in the Bible. I want to ask what you think of certain categories of problems in the Bible, but I strongly recommend that you give serious consideration before you respond. Make sure that you are certain of what you say in your reply. As a forewarning, you may end up regretting it if you don't.

So, with that in mind, what do you think of the following Bible problems that undermine inerrancy?

1. Contradictions: There are things said in the Bible that contradict things said elsewhere in the Bible.

2. Fabricated Prophetic Fulfillments: There are claims of fulfilled prophecy in the Bible where the verses being quoted are taken completely out of context. The original OT writings were not saying anything about what the NT writers claimed.

3. Other Prophetic Issues: There are failed predictions in the Bible.

4. Cruelties and Injustices: There are supposedly divinely sanctioned cruelties and injustices in the Bible (you have cited cruelty as a reason to reject the Quran, so what about the Bible?).

5. Divine Deception: The Bible depicts God as being deceptive in a few places.

6. Absurdities: There are things in the Bible that clearly don't line up with reality.

7. Divine Inspiration: There are things stated in the Bible that undermine the Christian claim that the whole Bible is divinely inspired.

Please address each issue if you are confident that you have adequately assessed them.

1.) There are apparent contradictions in the Bible. I see them as a chance to learn some truth God is wanting to reveal.

2.) There are no fabricated prophetic fulfillments.

3.) Not all prophecies have been fulfilled yet.

4.) Because there is no injustice with God. When God destroys and kills it is not cruelty or injustice. With the koran , muslims are to destroy and kill to bring the nation they live in under submission to Shariah Law. Islam has changed the Bible.

5.) And the problem is?

6.) Isn't that to be expected when you are dealing with the supernatural?

7.) I'm sure you believe so. I simply disagree.

I'm sure these are not adequate answers but enough to get started.

Stranger

June 26, 2017

I just wanted to follow up on @Citsonga's terrific post with another thing to consider:

Consider how many different issues there are with the Bible. There are so many different issues stacked up against the one source you consistently use to explain life around you and so little reason to believe that it contains actual truth. It would be one thing to ignore mild suspicions that your significant other is cheating. It would be another to see piece after piece of evidence that they are cheating on you and still choose to ignore it.

It would be one thing if the Bible had only a few questionable "isolated" incidents. But this just isn't the case, the historical data is faulty, the origins of the text are questionable, the morality is questionable, the logic is questionable, it goes against a lot of modern science, there are documented untruths, there are inconsistencies in the scripture from beginning to end.....that is a LOT to answer for on your part. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, has feathers like a duck, has webbed feet and a bill like a duck, lays eggs like a duck, if everything that you have around you reasonably points to an animal being a duck in particular....is it a swan just because you say it is on the premise of faith?

My faith does not make anything so. Just as your reason does not make anything so. Something is so because it is so.

I have put faith in what I believe is so. You use your reason to question what I believe, and what the Bible says is so.

So, neither your reason or my faith makes God exist or not exist.

Stranger

June 26, 2017

Sin can only be dealt with by God. Only to the degree that man is in agreement with God, concerning His work in dealing with sin, will sin be controlled in ones life. But, in this life, it will never be mastered.

So god left out part of the message to Cain? The important part that sin really can't be mastered in this life?

I mean, lets face it, if the "next" life is one where you're in perfect place where there is no sin then there's nothing to master so what you're saying is meaningless. And if you're in the "bad" place where sin simply is then you cannot master sin there and this is meaningless as far as that goes as well.

So for god to say that sin is something that a person can master seems to be a lie. Here we have someone on the verge of committing the very first murder and in comes god. God tells him that he can master sin. God knows sin *can* be mastered. He appears at a point when Cain needs to rule over sin. God explains this all to him in a very straightforward way. But Cain pushes ahead, allowing sin to rule over him, and kills his brother. It poignant.

But if god knows sin works how you describe then it makes no difference. It loses all its meaning and power. Cain is about to do something but that's just fine because that's just how it is. God appears and tells Cain a partial truth about sin. Cain then kills Abel but Abel is also guilty of sin. Seth and everyone else. It doesn't matter.

God tells them they can master sin but this is this is a partial truth. It's misleading. So now Cain, and anyone who listens to Cain, will be led astray. They will actually come to *believe* (I know you love this concept) that humans can actually overcome sin on their own in this life. This will make perfect since to them because GOD went out of his way to make a personal appearance to Cain and explain sin in this fashion. It was ultimately recorded in the Genesis text for posterity where others could ultimately draw this conclusion. This makes little sense unless you want to accept god wanted to mislead people in this way because his words didn't mean what was written.

The 'Seed' line is important to God. (Gal. 3:16) "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." And it travels through a certain Godly lineage. It doesn't matter how many children Adam and Eve had. The 'Seed' was going to travel a certain line. Culminating in Christ. I have no doubt Eve believed the promise in (Gen. 3:15) that the Redeemer would come from the woman's seed. She demonstrated that in (Gen, 4:1) and (4:25). Eve is not required to know everything involving this redemption process.

She had to know in order to believe. You don't just believe things. You have information and that forms your beliefs. But you keep adding things that Eve could not know. Like "Culminating in Christ." Eve had no knowledge of such things. So she couldn't know what could be meant by special lineages. You mention the "promise" which was a curse not a promise. So what's to believe? That snakes would bite people on the foot while people smacked them on the head? That's the curse. That's what it says. It makes no mention of anything more. But you keep telling me that Eve understood more beyond what she was told without telling me *how* she could possibly know this. You can quote the new testament at me all day but no one was around to do the same to her so that doesn't work for an answer. It doesn't work quoting anything other than the first few chapters of Genesis because that's all she could know so that's all I care about when it comes to these things.

Well, you assume 'magically spoken into existence'. What God does is not magic but just His work. It really isn't even 'supernatural' because it is very natural to God. It says God made clothes of skins. The process is not mentioned. It does indicate a process. I use both Old and New Testament to learn, or clarify any truth found in the Bible. I am not limited to the book of Genesis, or any one book. The Bible is One Book.

Call it what you will that doesn't change the magical end result.

The process is what matters in regard to these skins. It's rather vital. I know it says nothing about the process. That's my point. But you told me that god killed some animals and setup a whole sacrificial system. We know what that system was like and we know what it entails. So it matters because that means god would have had to had performed all those tasks soup to nuts, for all trades involved, in order to pull it off unless we start taking liberties and otherwise working in all sorts of other miraculous things except for the killing of a couple of animals just to get the things we want to get out of that verse. And that seems an unfair reading. I can't say it's the first but it's still worth pointing out.

As for the bible being "one book," well, that's an odd statement. The Hebrew bible doesn't have that pesky new testament but they use other writings you refuse to look at. Or the Catholic bible? It has more than 66 books. Oopsie. Or the Ethiopian bible? Not the same as yours either. Or the very first xian bible? You'd probably not like all the books in that one. We probably shouldn't be talking about this since it looks like the whole idea is just stupid.

Again, how much Eve knew about Satan and the serpent is immaterial. All that was required of Adam and Eve was to not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Obedience was based simply on God's command. There was no reason for them to obey that, other than 'God said' They didn't need the Bible at this time as they were unfallen and had the Word of God that was necessary for them. I as a Christian, because I have the revelation of the Bible, am not limited to just one book of the Bible.

We're not talking about before eating the fruit. I don't care. I'm talking about the curse. Afterward.

So it's punishment time. There's a line-up. Who is there? Adam. A human man. Eve. A human woman. And finally we have who? A nameless serpent? An nameless ex-angel that we'll call Satan? Both a serpent and Satan? Who is there? Because the story is telling me that a serpent is there but you're telling me that it says serpent but I should read it as Satan. So who was the last one standing there?

And this answer needs to be done in such a way that if you could get into a time machine and be hiding in a bush what would you see? Who would be there? What would Adam and Eve be with? Who would be there? How would they understand the situation? Would they understand the serpent to be a serpent since they refer to it in that fashion throughout the story? Because I'm looking for evidence to see how someone, in that moment, should understand it differently. I'm not looking as to how someone, at a later date, cast it differently.

Satan was defeated at the 'crucifixion'. His defeat was always centered on the life, death, and resurrection, of the Seed, Jesus Christ. It is a done deal. The warfare continues until the time appointed by God. He allows it to continue as to have those born into His family as He wants and to perfect them in the faith. He will eventually place Satan in the Lake of Fire.

The warfare? That sounds horrible. God sounds stupid for allowing a war to go on since he can just stop it at any time. I mean he's magic and all. Oops. I mean he's naturally magic and all. Thought I'd put that oxymoron in there so I didn't offend. If could just wiggle my nose and end a war no one could see, hear or touch and only knew about through their imagination you know I'd do it if I had that power. Sadly, my nose doesn't wiggle in that way.

Now, is this Lake of Fire a real lake or is it a supernatural lake? What are its properties? It sounds real but it seems ridiculous to put a supernatural thing like a satan into a real lake of anything. We know that Death and Hades are also thrown into this same lake so this lake doesn't sound entirely real. It has some magical qualities to it. The funny thing is once this is done and the new heaven and new earth, both things I'm sure you're looking forward to, come around that all the same troubles still exist. Isn't that something? The earth is still shitty after all that. Oh well. The best laid plans.

mwc

June 26, 2017

Short answer: No

@bornagainathiest christian alter ego

Explain to me then this verse:

Isaiah 45:7King James Version (KJV)

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Actually I should have quoted that to Stranger.... his assertion that God did not create evil is quite clearly wrong, and one does not need to do a philosophical and logical walk through of the Eden story to show that - the bible says so.

The bible says it and I believe it.... that's what the Christian says isn't it BAA?

'Evil' here is the opposite of 'peace'. God can make peace and He can create evil upon a person or persons or nation.

'Evil' as a force against God is not what is being addressed. 'Evil' as a force against God is simply a will outside of God's will. A will other than God's.

Stranger

June 26, 2017

But do you know if General Relativity (GR) contradicts the Bible or not, Stranger?

You are against science that disagrees with the Bible, but for science that agrees with it.

So, does GR agree or disagree with the Bible?

No, I don't. Should I?

Stranger

June 26, 2017

Short answer: No

@bornagainathiest christian alter ego

Explain to me then this verse:

Isaiah 45:7King James Version (KJV)

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Actually I should have quoted that to Stranger.... his assertion that God did not create evil is quite clearly wrong, and one does not need to do a philosophical and logical walk through of the Eden story to show that - the bible says so.

The bible says it and I believe it.... that's what the Christian says isn't it BAA?

That's certainly what some Christians say, LF. But if I read the Stranger correctly he would give the following answers to these questions.

Did God create evil? No.

Does God know evil. Yes, but he cannot do evil and has never done so.

Does God hate Esau? Yes.

Has God always hated Esau? Yes, God is unchanging.

Is God's eternal hatred of Esau evil? No, God is love.

And God's eternal hatred of Esau is good? Yes, God is only ever good.

And God's eternal hatred of Esau is just? Yes, God is only ever just and fair.

And God's eternal hatred of Esau is loving? Yes, God is love.

June 26, 2017

And how do you know when science does that, Stranger?

Also, how do you know when you are using something that relies on science that conflicts with the Bible?

When scientists make those claims.

I don't understand what you are asking? I don't try and know all about science.

Stranger

June 26, 2017

And can what you've outlined above be in any way demonstrated to us to different to how a Muslim child would be raised?

Please do not rely on faith in your reply, Stranger.

Doing that would be another of your circular arguments.

Could you rephrase your first question? I think you have left out a word or two that would help.

Well, what I have said I believe comes from Scripture. So, my faith is always going to be involved.

I have no problem with circular arguments. If it is circular, so be it.

Stranger

June 26, 2017

No, I don't. Should I?

Stranger

Well, if GR did conflict with Bible, would you stop using any technology that uses it?

June 26, 2017

So it would loving for me to purchase a slave, as long as I pay a high price?

No. You may love or not love a slave at a high price. If you gave the price God did, that would be love.

Stranger

June 26, 2017

My faith does not make anything so. Just as your reason does not make anything so. Something is so because it is so.

I have put faith in what I believe is so. You use your reason to question what I believe, and what the Bible says is so.

So, neither your reason or my faith makes God exist or not exist.

Stranger

I could not agree more with this, @Stranger. The problem is you putting equal weight in "reason" vs. faith as though me trying to be reasonable is a negative thing compared to belief in and of itself. No one believes anything without a reason to believe it, your reason is the bible. If that can be historically deconstructed, what is your basis?

June 26, 2017

Could you rephrase your first question? I think you have left out a word or two that would help.

Well, what I have said I believe comes from Scripture. So, my faith is always going to be involved.

I have no problem with circular arguments. If it is circular, so be it.

Stranger

No. I 'was' raised to know Allah, to go to the mosque, to trust Allah and Mohammed. But as I said earlier, that is because Allah placed me in that family to know Him. Muslims are not Muslims because they are raised that way. They are raised that way because Allah wants His people living amongst His people and being taught His ways.

Stranger

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I've rephrased your words instead, Stranger.

To us, there's no difference between you and a Muslim.

You both can make identical claims, both rely on identical circular arguments and both claim to guided spiritually.

We cannot tell you apart.

Can you resolve this for us?

June 26, 2017

No. You may love or not love a slave at a high price. If you gave the price God did, that would be love.

How is owning a person ever a loving thing to do? How is sacrificing a child ever a loving thing to do? How is using someone as a scapegoat ever a just or loving thing to do?

June 26, 2017

No. You may love or not love a slave at a high price. If you gave the price God did, that would be love.

Stranger

Let's say, they were having a 2 for 1 sale and I convinced the trader to cut the top price by 50%, all the while, I'm still loving all of them -- almost as much as god does (after all, i did just meet them).

Would that be okay, too?

June 26, 2017

Well, if GR did conflict with Bible, would you stop using any technology that uses it?

Where General Relativity is used in technology I would use it. Where General Relativity is used to conflict with the Bible I would reject it.

Stranger

June 26, 2017

No. You may love or not love a slave at a high price. If you gave the price God did, that would be love.

Stranger

What price did he give? He got his son to perform some minor magic tricks to gain followers. Then he died and came back from the dead as the grand finale to the magic show. For this, he became exalted above all others to rule the throne of heaven and earth for all eternity. I don't see any great price paid here considering what he gained out of that deal. That's like paying $10 and getting Ferrari with a perpetual motion engine.

June 26, 2017

I could not agree more with this, @Stranger. The problem is you putting equal weight in "reason" vs. faith as though me trying to be reasonable is a negative thing compared to belief in and of itself. No one believes anything without a reason to believe it, your reason is the bible. If that can be historically deconstructed, what is your basis?

Well, my faith to you is a negative thing also.

What do you mean 'historically deconstructed'?

Stranger

June 26, 2017

No. I 'was' raised to know Allah, to go to the mosque, to trust Allah and Mohammed. But as I said earlier, that is because Allah placed me in that family to know Him. Muslims are not Muslims because they are raised that way. They are raised that way because Allah wants His people living amongst His people and being taught His ways.

Stranger

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've rephrased your words instead, Stranger.

To us, there's no difference between you and a Muslim.

You both can make identical claims, both rely on identical circular arguments and both claim to guided spiritually.

We cannot tell you apart.

Can you resolve this for us?

I have never head islam say this. You are saying it as an example, but have you ever heard them say this?

Christianity and islam do not make identical claims.

Just because both come under the topic of 'religion' doesn't make them the same. Just because you see them the same due to their being religions, doesn't make them the same.

Probably not.

Stranger

June 26, 2017

How is owning a person ever a loving thing to do? How is sacrificing a child ever a loving thing to do? How is using someone as a scapegoat ever a just or loving thing to do?

Slavery is the condition of the human race.

Humans are slaves of sin and Satan in this world, or they are slaves of God. To redeem one from sin and the ruler of this world, is a loving thing to do.

God saved many through the sacrifice of One. And God saved the Son.

Being a scapegoat, the sin bearer, is a just and loving thing to do because God did it to save others. And, He did it because it works.

Stranger

June 26, 2017

Let's say, they were having a 2 for 1 sale and I convinced the trader to cut the top price by 50%, all the while, I'm still loving all of them -- almost as much as god does (after all, i did just meet them).

Would that be okay, too?

As I said, if you gave the price God did, that would be love.

Stranger

June 26, 2017

What price did he give? He got his son to perform some minor magic tricks to gain followers. Then he died and came back from the dead as the grand finale to the magic show. For this, he became exalted above all others to rule the throne of heaven and earth for all eternity. I don't see any great price paid here considering what he gained out of that deal. That's like paying $10 and getting Ferrari with a perpetual motion engine.

The Bible didn't say it was a magic show, or that they were magic tricks.

Stranger

June 26, 2017

Well, my faith to you is a negative thing also.

What do you mean 'historically deconstructed'?

Stranger

Not at all, I think "faith" can be a positive thing, when it's based in reason. For example, I have faith (complete trust or confidence, per dictionary) in my husband not to cheat on me. I base this faith on the history of his actions thus far, his trustworthiness in other facets of his life, and his audible promise not to do so. I don't think the faith and reason are mutually exclusive. I do think faith in christianity, specifically, is not compatible with reason. This is suspect to me because of the other ways faith can be shown to work with reason in a positive way.

As for historical deconstruction, the definition of deconstruct is "to take apart or examine (something) in order to reveal the basis or composition often with the intention of exposing biases, flaws, or inconsistencies." So to do this historically, we would keep our beliefs (for or against) to ourselves, and look objectively at the evidence before us. We look at the inconsistencies not only contained within the bible itself, but also at it's incompatibility with other contemporary texts and for physical evidence of what is contained in the Bible. So not only do we want to know the actual historical account of the resurrection (which is confusion and inconsistent within Scripture), but we look at other historical facts. Was there really a census that made Joseph go to Bethlehem? Historically speaking no. How do other pagan religions of the time influence the authors of the bible? Are the authors who they said they were? Did the Noah's Flood story come from the Epic of Gilgamesh (which came from an even older flood tale)? Did Dante's inferno influence our understanding of hell? Is Adam and Eve allegory or was there a historical, literal creation? We have historical evidence of the Sumerians, of the Roman empire....we should be able to find evidence of the 40 years the Hebrews spent in Egypt.

Keep in mind, I'm speaking only of historical deconstruction. I am not taking into account moral, philosophical/metaphysical, scientific, cultural, logical, or even emotional deconstructions, among many more.

June 26, 2017

No. I 'was' raised to know Jesus Christ, to go to church, to trust God and Christ. But as I said earlier, that is because God placed me in that family to know Him. Christians are not Christians because they are raised that way. They are raised that way because God wants His people living amongst His people and being taught His ways.

Stranger

Hi Stranger,

You say you were raised to know Jesus because God wants His people living amongst His people and being taught His ways. So does this mean that children born to non-Christian parents are already not "His people"?

Christians: Why would an all-good God base our salvation from Hell on whether or not we believe in a 2,000-year-old supernatural story?

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