Christians: Why would an all-good God base our salvation from Hell on whether or not we believe in a 2,000-year-old supernatural story?

[Stranger]

 

 

Then it's a good thing that Troy Brooks, the Christian who runs this site...

 

http://biblocality.com/forums/

 

...isn't the Christian who is disagreeing with you, here in Ex-C.

 

He believes that God's New Jerusalem will sited on the summit of Olympus Mons, the highest mountain on the planet Mars.

 

We therefore couldn't tell you apart from a raving lunatic.

 

I have never heard of this person.   

 

Are we supposed to be in disagreement?  

 

Whether you can tell me apart is immaterial.   Hopefully what I say will distinguish.  

 

Stranger

[Stranger]

 

 

Except that there is science delving "into the spirit": I will disregard (for now) that there is not a whole lot of evidence for a "spirit," and say simply thatscience does have a lot to say about our capacity for spirituality in our brains. Our brain is very flexible and adaptable, it feeds off of what we reinforce. 

 

But the 'spirit' is not synonymous with the brain.  

 

Stranger

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

I have never heard of this person.   

 

Are we supposed to be in disagreement?  

 

Whether you can tell me apart is immaterial.   Hopefully what I say will distinguish.  

 

Stranger

 

 

You hope that your words will distinguish you from a raving lunatic, but if we can't tell you and him apart... that's immaterial to you?

 

Nice to know that you care.

 

 

[Stranger]

 

 

You're starting to repeat yourself.

 

Specific examples of how you would know.  

 

Please.

 

 

 

When you know what you believe, you do that.

 

Well, when science says the six day creation is just a myth, I disagree.   Because Scripture is clear.

 

Stranger

 

 

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

When you know what you believe, you do that.

 

Well, when science says the six day creation is just a myth, I disagree.   Because Scripture is clear.

 

Stranger

 

 

 

That's not a specific example.

 

Citing your own beliefs doesn't inform us of a specific example.

 

Please do so.

 

 

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

When you know what you believe, you do that.

 

Well, when science says the six day creation is just a myth, I disagree.   Because Scripture is clear.

 

Stranger

 

 

 

Yes, just as I said.

 

You use your evidence-free faith to disagree with things which are supported by evidence.

 

 

[bornagainathiest]

Inconveniently, I now have to quit this thread until tomorrow, Stranger.   So here's what I'll leave with you.

 

 

General Relativity (GR) does conflict with the Bible.

 

Yet, every day you use products and services that are provided by technologies that rely on it.

 

 

 

I look forward to reading your response about this.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[LogicalFallacy]

 

Except (Rom. 1:19-20) disagrees with you.

 

You would think that after all our conversations you would realise that stating a passage in the bible disagrees with me holds no weight if you cannot show the bible to be true. And you have thus far failed to do that. So when a passage in the bible says all men have knowledge of god, and reality (i.e. that which is REAL) disagrees, then it is more rational to accept reality, not the words on a page. Let me quote you something so that you might understand that quoting the bible then stating it disagrees with me as if that is an argument is rather pointless. The Quran disagrees with you:

 

"Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, 'Trinity.' Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs" (4:171).

 

"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is but a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. God's curse be on them; how they are deluded away from the Truth!

 

Tell me, does me quoting this verse from another religion do anything to prove the truthfulness of those versus? I will warrant you will answer no, and thus it is with quoting the bible as a source of truth.

 

 

Had Paul not gone to Europe, then Europe would not be Christian.   You asked what I based it on and I showed you. 

 

Had Constantine not forced the Christian bishops to agree at Nicea then adopted Christianity as the state religion, Christianity would not have had the influence it had. You are missing the point of man made religion spreading, and showing that any god had any hand in that spread. We can trace the spread of both Christianity and Islam and see they were both spread by man, not by the hand of god. Of course for you its easy - you take any historical event and say "ah ha, there is the hand of God". Yet you fail to show any God.

 

 

The Canaanites did not worship the God of the Bible.  If they did, they wouldn't have been destroyed by the God of the Bible.

 

The God of the bible evolved out of the Canaanite gods. So in a way they worshiped the precursor the God of the bible.

 

Genesis 1:26-28King James Version (KJV)

²⁶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

 

Who is "us" and "our"?

 

 

Well, the Bible disagrees with your statement.

 

Well every other holy book disagrees with you. Lets not pretend that because a book disagrees with a statement that automatically makes that book true

 

 

Only God has 'free will'.  Man has a will.  But , it isn't free.

 

Thank you for admitting this. Therefore Adam and Eve had no free will. They could not have possibly done anything different that they did. God preordained it. God created the circumstances in which mankind would sin, then condemned man for that sin, then created the way to be saved from the punishment of the sin which he ordained man to commit. Man therefore has no choice, and therefore you cannot claim that anything in reality it because of anything man did.

 

[Fweethawt]

 

 

As I said, if you gave the price God did, that would be love.

 

Stranger

But -- when you're the creator of all that there is, how can you possibly pay for anything?

 

Think about it.

[Stranger]

 

 

So let's say Baby A is one of His people.  Is Baby A inevitably going to become a Christian and be saved?  

 

And if Baby B is NOT one of His people, is that baby inevitably lost?

 

Yes.

 

Stranger

[Stranger]

 

 

My comment was about the price vs reward. The price was not magic. I was using magic to describe the method. The method by which Jesus died and came back is irrelevant. He died and came back and now he gets to rule the universe forever. But then he was going to rule the world forever anyway. So he did it to save mankind from the hell he himself created? If that's the case, then he set an unpayable price for the salvation of mankind and then paid it himself to himself to exalt himself. He set a price so uniquely special that only he could ever pay it and then he paid it to himself to show how awesome he is. How is that paying a price? How does that show love? It shows abuse of power and emotional manipulation if anything. I don't see that any price was paid if nothing was lost. He gained "experience of suffering" and lost nothing. 

 

What if a trillionaire says all of humanity owes him money so he is going to nuke the whole planet, but he won't do it if the people pay him several trillion dollars even though it's impossible. After no one is able to do it, he pays it to himself and announces the debt is paid because he loves us all too much to nuke us all even though we deserve it. Would everyone praise his name? Did he pay a high price to show us his love? It's a pointless attention seeking gesture.

 

Understand that neither God nor Christ need any further exaltation.  They do not need man to exalt them.  They by their very Being are exalted.  But when God creates, whether it be angels or man,  God will be exalted.  And it is right for Him to be exalted.  And it is right that it is only Him that is exalted.  

 

So, God did not create man to exalt Him.  But the Creator will always be exalted by the creation. That is correct exaltation.  That is correct worship.  

 

You say no price was paid if nothing was lost.  But His people were lost.   The price must be paid in order to redeem them.  Had He not paid it, they would still be lost.  

 

Except, concerning your trillionaire story, the point of God is not attention seeking.   He doesn't need it.   He deserves it, and is worthy of it.  It is the correct attitude that the creation should have towards the Creator, and will have if the creation remains in right relationship with God.   In other words, it is wrong to not worship God.  It is wrong to not exalt God and Jesus Christ.  

 

Stranger

[Stranger]

 

 

But isn't the "reason of the world" made by god? Wouldn't our ability to reason and to find fallacies in arguments not only be made by god, but does it not reflect that we are "made in his image?" Who decides what is the "reason of the world" and what is "god given reason" if it's all god given?

 

Fair enough, on this point. I know when to pick my battles, you and I will argue until we are blue in the face on this point. All I can say is, if god made both a "reasonable, logical" brain and principles of logic.....who are you to go against them?  

 

The creation was made by God.  The laws of the creation were made by God.  Because there is an order in these things man can rightly deduce truths about the creation using reason which was originally given by God. (Gen. 1:28)   After the fall of man, man still reasons, but it is reason that excludes God.  Man can still learn truths about the creation, but man excludes God always in his findings.   

 

Very simply put, the reason of the world excludes God.  The reason of God and the believer acknowledges God.  

 

I do not go against them.  But I acknowledge that man is fallen and thus his logic and reason are now against God.  Which I say is illogical.  But then...I am a believer.

 

Stranger

[nutrichuckles93]

 

 

Yes.

 

Stranger

So essentially you freely admit that you understand that your god enjoys fucking with peoples' fates and predetermining them to damnation.

[Stranger]

 

 

That's not a specific example.

 

Citing your own beliefs doesn't inform us of a specific example.

 

Please do so.

 

 

 

I don't follow.  Do you want me to cite an example contrary to my belief?

 

Stranger

[Stranger]

 

Inconveniently, I now have to quit this thread until tomorrow, Stranger.   So here's what I'll leave with you.

 

 

General Relativity (GR) does conflict with the Bible.

 

Yet, every day you use products and services that are provided by technologies that rely on it.

 

 

 

I look forward to reading your response about this.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

I understand.  I am about done myself for today. 

 

I am no scientist.  So, how does GR conflict with the Bible?     And why shouldn't I use products or services provided by it?

 

Stranger

[Stranger]

 

But -- when you're the creator of all that there is, how can you possibly pay for anything?

 

Think about it.

 

Why does God being the Creator mean He cannot pay?   

 

Stranger

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

 

Why does God being the Creator mean He cannot pay?   

 

Stranger

 

He is making a payment to himself. Why would that even be necessary?

[Stranger]

 

So essentially you freely admit that you understand that your god enjoys fucking with peoples' fates and predetermining them to damnation.

 

I freely admit that God knows who His people are and that He has provided salvation for all of mankind to secure the salvation for His people.  Any who come to Christ will be saved.  Any.

 

Stranger.

[Stranger]

 

 

He is making a payment to himself. Why would that even be necessary?

 

Because He is the One to whom the payment is owed.  It is His righteousness that must be appeased.  It is His righteousness that demands the judgement.   

 

Stranger

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

 

I freely admit that God knows who His people are and that He has provided salvation for all of mankind to secure the salvation for His people.  Any who come to Christ will be saved.  Any.

 

Stranger.

 

The people that have not been predestined to be "His" will never be saved because he never intended them to be saved. Those individuals were created for no reason other than to be damned. These people also cannot save themselves through any means, no matter how hard they try. Do you agree with this?

[nutrichuckles93]

 

 

I freely admit that God knows who His people are and that He has provided salvation for all of mankind to secure the salvation for His people.  Any who come to Christ will be saved.  Any.

 

Stranger.

So he created people that he knew would never become his (aka heaven vs damnation). Clearly you do not wish to see how royally screwed up that concept it is, because it would mean admitting that your god created people to damn just because he wanted to, despite how they might feel or think.

[Fweethawt]

Oh, this rabbit hole is a little too deep for me...

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

So he created people that he knew would never become his (aka heaven vs damnation). Clearly you do not wish to see how royally screwed up that concept it is, because it would mean admitting that your god created people to damn just because he wanted to, despite how they might feel or think.

 

Based on everything that Stranger has said so far, I get this idea that in his version of reality, his god creates living things for his own personal entertainment, rather than because he has any love for them. It is as if we're all just puppets playing out some show, with "God" pulling the strings all for giggles. It's as if he is going through a list of the people he plans to create and then groups them all into two groups. The people in Group A are his chosen people who will get to live in Heaven, kissing his ass forever, while those in Group B are created for the sole purpose of being sent to Hell.

 

For all of these people, no amount of effort could ever get them into one group or the other, they are simply destined for a purpose before they ever exist. For all of those people in Group B, there could be many that at one time in their lives had a sincere belief in this Almighty Psychopath, but despite the intensity of their faith and all of their efforts to seek him, their faith never bears any fruit simply because they were not chosen to be in Group A before they were born. If such a creature truly is God, then there can be no hope because that would mean that we are here for his own personal entertainment and no other reason, despite the word games he plays with his "prophets" and their scriptures.

[Stranger]

 

 

The people that have not been predestined to be "His" will never be saved because he never intended them to be saved. Those individuals were created for no reason other than to be damned. These people also cannot save themselves through any means, no matter how hard they try. Do you agree with this?

 

First of all, you misuse the term 'predestined'.  Predestined  speaks to the believer being brought into sonship, or maturity.  No believer is predestined to be His.  They are His.  They are of Him.  

 

There are those who are of God, and not of God.  It is a matter of who they are of.   God created Adam and Eve. All others are born of them.    But, as a result of the fall, some are born of them that are not of God.   As to the exact how this occurs during the births, I don't know.   But, I know it occurs.   

 

God created Adam and Eve with the intent that their posterity would fill the earth and be sons of God.  Due to the fall, another seed line is introduced that is not of God.  God did not create them to be damned.  They are born of their father, which is not of God.   They will be damned because they are not of God.   And of course, they cannot save themselves.  Why?  Because to save themselves they must come the way God has prescribed.  And they won't.  

 

You say, 'no matter how hard they try'.   That is not true.   They want nothing to do with God.   They are not trying to be right with God.  They do not want God.   People who are in hell, don't want to be in hell.  But, neither do they want to be with God.  

 

Stranger

 

 

 

[Stranger]

 

 

Based on everything that Stranger has said so far, I get this idea that in his version of reality, his god creates living things for his own personal entertainment, rather than because he has any love for them. It is as if we're all just puppets playing out some show, with "God" pulling the strings all for giggles. It's as if he is going through a list of the people he plans to create and then groups them all into two groups. The people in Group A are his chosen people who will get to live in Heaven, kissing his ass forever, while those in Group B are created for the sole purpose of being sent to Hell.

 

For all of these people, no amount of effort could ever get them into one group or the other, they are simply destined for a purpose before they ever exist. For all of those people in Group B, there could be many that at one time in their lives had a sincere belief in this Almighty Psychopath, but despite the intensity of their faith and all of their efforts to seek him, their faith never bears any fruit simply because they were not chosen to be in Group A before they were born. If such a creature truly is God, then there can be no hope because that would mean that we are here for his own personal entertainment and no other reason, despite the word games he plays with his "prophets" and their scriptures.

 

Do you have children?   Would you be entertained watching your son crucified?   God is not 'entertained'.   He puts His people through what He knows they need.  

 

Your people in group B can come to Christ if they so will.   God has made the provision.  Any who come will not be rejected.   

 

Stranger