Christians: Why would an all-good God base our salvation from Hell on whether or not we believe in a 2,000-year-old supernatural story?

[Astreja]

 

All men everywhere have the knowledge of God in them.  And are thus accountable to God.   (Rom.  1:19-20)

 

 

I do not consider Paul of Tarsus to be a credible reference on what other people know, as I'm quite sure he lacked the ability to read minds.  That sounds like nothing more than a cultist scare tactic.

 

Yes, God's hand was seen in Christianizing Europe.

 

My ancestral lands were invaded by Christians.  Our village elders were murdered, sometimes tortured to death, by the invaders led by Olaf Tryggvason circa 1000 CE.

 

I want compensation for the homesteads that were stolen from my clan.  How much do you think I should ask you for, Stranger?

 

[Astreja]

 

Because He is the One to whom the payment is owed.  It is His righteousness that must be appeased.  It is His righteousness that demands the judgement.  

 

Wot, righteousness isn't its own reward?  Sounds more like a celestial loan shark, telling people that they somehow incurred a debt too big for them to pay.  Perhaps 'e shouldn't have given humans such a high credit limit in the first place.

[LogicalFallacy]

 

Do you have children?   Would you be entertained watching your son crucified?   God is not 'entertained'.   He puts His people through what He knows they need.  

 

No I wouldn't. Most people, except the sadistic ones would do ANYTHING to prevent any harm to their children. Unlike your god who sacrifices his son for the wrongs of others.

 

It's worse than that, because apparently Jesus IS God therefore God sacrificed himself to himself to save mortals from a plan that he set in motion with a punishment he created.

 

 

 

Your people in group B can come to Christ if they so will.   God has made the provision.  Any who come will not be rejected.   

 

What if God has preordained them to not come to them. What if God hates them from before birth? What if God predestines you to be the son of perdition? What if God sends a strong delusion so that they will not believe so that he doesn't have to save them? What then Stranger? You are trying to falsely make out this is all on the human. You say its the human that must accept or reject. You don't read your bible or you'd know that it's God that calls and chooses whom he will, and blinds the eyes of others that they will not believe.

[Stranger]

 

 

I do not consider Paul of Tarsus to be a credible reference on what other people know, as I'm quite sure he lacked the ability to read minds.  That sounds like nothing more than a cultist scare tactic.

 

 

 

 

My ancestral lands were invaded by Christians.  Our village elders were murdered, sometimes tortured to death, by the invaders led by Olaf Tryggvason circa 1000 CE.

 

I want compensation for the homesteads that were stolen from my clan.  How much do you think I should ask you for, Stranger?

 

 

Paul's writings in the Bible are Scripture.

 

Take it to the Canadian government.   I am a U.S. citizen.    Let me know how it goes.  My kinfolk have endured the same, though from different source.   

 

Stranger

 

 

[Stranger]

 

 

Wot, righteousness isn't its own reward?  Sounds more like a celestial loan shark, telling people that they somehow incurred a debt too big for them to pay.  Perhaps 'e shouldn't have given humans such a high credit limit in the first place.

 

God's righteousness is what must be appeased.   

 

Stranger

[Astreja]

 

Paul's writings in the Bible are Scripture.

 

And I reject scripture -- all of it.

 

Take it to the Canadian government.   I am a U.S. citizen.    Let me know how it goes.

 

No, I have my own means.  I was just curious as to how much responsibility you were prepared to take for the atrocities perpetrated by Christianity in bygone times.  (hands invoice to the Karma Faerie)

[Stranger]

 

 

No I wouldn't. Most people, except the sadistic ones would do ANYTHING to prevent any harm to their children. Unlike your god who sacrifices his son for the wrongs of others.

 

It's worse than that, because apparently Jesus IS God therefore God sacrificed himself to himself to save mortals from a plan that he set in motion with a punishment he created.

 

 

 

What if God has preordained them to not come to them. What if God hates them from before birth? What if God predestines you to be the son of perdition? What if God sends a strong delusion so that they will not believe so that he doesn't have to save them? What then Stranger? You are trying to falsely make out this is all on the human. You say its the human that must accept or reject. You don't read your bible or you'd know that it's God that calls and chooses whom he will, and blinds the eyes of others that they will not believe.

 

God hates those who are not of Him.   He knows those who are not of Him.  But, He has still made the provision for 'any' to come.  All they have to do is come to Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.   He rejects none who comes.

 

Stranger

[Astreja]

 

God's righteousness is what must be appeased.

 

In your mythology, the wilful creation of a hell utterly and permanently destroys any claim your imaginary friend might have had to righteousness.  The god of the Bible is pure evil pretending to be good.

[Stranger]

 

 

And I reject scripture -- all of it.

 

 

 

 

No, I have my own means.  I was just curious as to how much responsibility you were prepared to take for the atrocities perpetrated by Christianity in bygone times.  (hands invoice to the Karma Faerie)

 

Shucks.

 

Stranger

[Stranger]

 

 

In your mythology, the wilful creation of a hell utterly and permanently destroys any claim your imaginary friend might have had to righteousness.  The god of the Bible is pure evil pretending to be good.

 

Hell is a place of 'good'.  It displays the righteous judgement of God.

 

Stranger

[Astreja]

Hey, you could've gotten off cheap -- I would have been satisfied with a $10 donation to the American Red Cross or your local animal shelter, if made in good faith.  Now even I don't know what'll happen. *shrug*

[Astreja]

 

Hell is a place of 'good'.  It displays the righteous judgement of God.

 

That is absolutely disgusting.  There is nothing "good" about causing sentient beings to endure an eternity of suffering.  Your moral compass appears to be broken; kindly do not speak of good or evil till you get it repaired.

[Stranger]

 

Hey, you could've gotten off cheap -- I would have been satisfied with a $10 donation to the American Red Cross or your local animal shelter, if made in good faith.  Now even I don't know what'll happen. *shrug*

 

I was hoping you could set a benchmark that I could use also. 

 

Stranger

[LogicalFallacy]

 

 

Hell is a place of 'good'.  It displays the righteous judgement of God.

 

Stranger

 

Take note people - here is a person proclaiming that burning in anguish for eternity for the crime of lack of belief is "good".

 

At this point I might be inclined to agree with Christopher Hitchens when he says Christianity is a cancer that needs to be stamped out.

[Stranger]

 

 

That is absolutely disgusting.  There is nothing "good" about causing sentient beings to endure an eternity of suffering.  Your moral compass appears to be broken; kindly do not speak of good or evil till you get it repaired.

 

If my 'repair' means thinking as you do...you know that ain't going to happen.

 

Stranger

[Stranger]

 

 

Take note people - here is a person proclaiming that burning in anguish for eternity for the crime of lack of belief is "good".

 

At this point I might be inclined to agree with Christopher Hitchens when he says Christianity is a cancer that needs to be stamped out.

 

Go ahead.  Others have tried.   How did that work out?

 

Stranger

[LogicalFallacy]

 

 

God hates those who are not of Him.   He knows those who are not of Him.  But, He has still made the provision for 'any' to come.  All they have to do is come to Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.   He rejects none who comes.

 

Stranger

 

You don't know what omniscient and omnipotent mean do you?

 

If he knows who "are not of him" and he has foreordained that they not be saved then there is no provision whereby they might come to him. If that was the case they would never be foreordained to be lost, which goes against scripture.

 

Also if God can have predestined someone to god to hell, but then they can change his mind through their belief then he is not omniscient or else he would have known they would come to him and thus they would always have been predestined to come to god.  You start running into rabbit holes trying to claim that your god is omniscient, omnipotent and all loving, while saying people can change his mind, that there are things he cannot do, and that he created hell for those he loved.

[LogicalFallacy]

 

 

Go ahead.  Others have tried.   How did that work out?

 

Stranger

 

You are proud of a self infecting virus that produces people like you who revel in the concept of people burning in hell for eternity?

[midniterider]

 

 

The Christians 'faith' and 'belief' are not the same as the secular terms.  I can say to someone I believe it may rain today.  And it may or may not rain.   I can say to someone I have faith that this weld will hold.   But, it may or may not.  

 

When one comes to Christ, believes, It is not a 'may' or 'may not' be so.   'Belief' and 'knowing' work simultaneously.    

 

One cannot make themselves believe.  You either do or you don't.   If one just says 'I believe' but they don't, then they don't.  And they are not saved.  

 

Well, I would say the Christian knows because of the work of the Holy Spirit upon his spirit.  You would 'know' Jesus isn't real because...?

 

Stranger

 

I 'know' that Jesus isn't real because Christians have to talk on his behalf. Jesus is the puppet and Christians are the puppet masters. You breathe life into Jesus, not the other way around. Lots of Christians talk about Jesus. Jesus never speaks.

 

People can make themselves believe in things. It just takes time. Parents can make it 'undesirable' to not believe. Being raised Christian starts one in faith. Weekly indoctrination keeps people in the faith. Socializing with believers keeps people in the faith.

 

Life is not necessarily black or white, believe or not believe. There are varying degrees of belief. Do you ever have doubts? If you have doubts, are you saved? Or no?

 

 

[midniterider]

 

 

So your family didn't worship Jesus? Your family didn't go to church? Your family taught you nothing of Christianity?

 

No.  I 'was' raised to know Jesus Christ, to go to church, to trust God and Christ.   But as I said earlier, that is because God placed me in that family to know Him.   Christians are not Christians because they are raised that way.  They are raised that way because God wants His people living amongst His people and being taught His ways.  

 

Stranger

 

 

.....................................................

 

Isn't being 'taught His ways' the same thing as being 'raised' as a Christian by your parents?

 

 

[midniterider]

 

 

I don't think I would call the original sin a curse from God.   It is a result, but not a pronounced curse.  Actually mankind was not cursed by God.   The serpent was and the earth was.  

 

It was a curse but it wasn't a curse? Or it wasn't a curse from God?

 

 

 

 

 

[Stranger]

 

 

You don't know what omniscient and omnipotent mean do you?

 

If he knows who "are not of him" and he has foreordained that they not be saved then there is no provision whereby they might come to him. If that was the case they would never be foreordained to be lost, which goes against scripture.

 

Also if God can have predestined someone to god to hell, but then they can change his mind through their belief then he is not omniscient or else he would have known they would come to him and thus they would always have been predestined to come to god.  You start running into rabbit holes trying to claim that your god is omniscient, omnipotent and all loving, while saying people can change his mind, that there are things he cannot do, and that he created hell for those he loved.

 

I believe I do.

 

God has revealed that He knows those who are His.   Recognize that God knows this, we don't.  In other words, none can say I must not be of God so there is no salvation for me.   As long as one has breath on this earth, the invitation to come to Christ remains.   

 

This is so because the sacrifice of Jesus Christ covered all the race of Adam.   

 

Stranger

[Stranger]

 

 

You are proud of a self infecting virus that produces people like you who revel in the concept of people burning in hell for eternity?

 

That I believe there is a hell, yes.  That I revel in people being in hell, no.    That I recognize God is just in what He does, yes.    

 

Stranger

 

 

[LogicalFallacy]

 

 

I believe I do.

 

God has revealed that He knows those who are His.   Recognize that God knows this, we don't.  In other words, none can say I must not be of God so there is no salvation for me.   As long as one has breath on this earth, the invitation to come to Christ remains.   

 

This is so because the sacrifice of Jesus Christ covered all the race of Adam.   

 

Stranger

 

Once again you are missing the point.

 

We were talking about free will right. And the ability of people to choose to come to God, and in your words "He rejects none who comes." However you also stated that people don't have free will. I presume you are with the bible when it says that god chooses who he wills before the foundation of the world?

 

So as you state, in your universe god knows all that is going to happen. He knows this because he planned it all. Everything is set. Thus people have no ability to ability to choose. 

 

If someone is predestined by god to be the son of perdition, can they, by believing and accepting Jesus, be saved?

 

[TABA]

 

 

God has revealed that He knows those who are His.   Recognize that God knows this, we don't.  In other words, none can say I must not be of God so there is no salvation for me.   As long as one has breath on this earth, the invitation to come to Christ remains.   

 

 

Good Morning, Stranger!

 

So let's get more specific and more personal here: I was born into a family of faith and raised to belive in God and Jesus.  It was a Catholic family, which I realize you may not regard as Christian at all.  In any case in my twenties, after studying with some Church of Christ friends, I decided that since I believed in God and Jesus, I should be baptized by immersion as an adult.  For the next twenty years I was an active member of the church.  Around the age of fifty, however, some doubts that had always been present began to reemerge and after a period of reading and reflection I realized that I no longer believed.  I  now regret my years as a Christian, I reject Jesus and the Bible and I believe in no god; I am an agnostic atheist.  

 

Given all this, can you determine whether I am one of His people or not?  

 

I understand that you believe I either always was or always was not, that I didn't go from being one of them to not being one of them, or vice versa.  If I AM one of his people, am I certain to return to faith in him?  If I am NOT one of his people, am I doomed to Hell, or could I somehow be saved anyway by turning to him?

 

I guess it is this latter possibility that confuses me, as regards your beliefs:  the possibility that I am not one of His people, but I could still be saved by making the right choice.

 

I hope my questions were clear.  They always seem clear to me, at least when I first write them...