Christians: Why would an all-good God base our salvation from Hell on whether or not we believe in a 2,000-year-old supernatural story?

June 27, 2017

I 'know' that Jesus isn't real because Christians have to talk on his behalf. Jesus is the puppet and Christians are the puppet masters. You breathe life into Jesus, not the other way around. Lots of Christians talk about Jesus. Jesus never speaks.

People can make themselves believe in things. It just takes time. Parents can make it 'undesirable' to not believe. Being raised Christian starts one in faith. Weekly indoctrination keeps people in the faith. Socializing with believers keeps people in the faith.

Life is not necessarily black or white, believe or not believe. There are varying degrees of belief. Do you ever have doubts? If you have doubts, are you saved? Or no?

Do I ever have doubts about God, and Christ and salvation? I would say no. I'm sure there are believers who have doubts for some reason or other. Usually it would be caused by something in their walk with God that they cannot overcome. Are they still saved, yes. Their salvation was based on their faith in coming to Christ. And that faith will grow.

Stranger

June 27, 2017

Once again you are missing the point.

We were talking about free will right. And the ability of people to choose to come to God, and in your words "He rejects none who comes." However you also stated that people don't have free will. I presume you are with the bible when it says that god chooses who he wills before the foundation of the world?

So as you state, in your universe god knows all that is going to happen. He knows this because he planned it all. Everything is set. Thus people have no ability to ability to choose.

If someone is predestined by god to be the son of perdition, can they, by believing and accepting Jesus, be saved?

I don't think I am missing the point.

When I say people don't have 'free will' I am not saying they don't have a will. Those who God chooses still must exercise their will to be saved. So, if such a thing were possible, and one who God chose did not exercise his will to come to Christ, then theoretically, he would be lost.

By the same token, if such a thing were possible, if one is not chosen, and comes to Jesus Christ to be saved, then theoretically, he would be saved.

Will any who are of God not come to Christ? No. Will any who are not of God come to Christ? No.

Again, these are things from God's view, not ours. The salvation He has provided is sufficient to cover every member of Adam's race.

So, it is true that only those who God chooses will come. It is equally true that any who come will be saved.

Stranger

June 27, 2017

.....................................................

Isn't being 'taught His ways' the same thing as being 'raised' as a Christian by your parents?

Yes. But the first act is God placing the believer in the Christian family.

Stranger

June 27, 2017

Good Morning, Stranger!

So let's get more specific and more personal here: I was born into a family of faith and raised to belive in God and Jesus. It was a Catholic family, which I realize you may not regard as Christian at all. In any case in my twenties, after studying with some Church of Christ friends, I decided that since I believed in God and Jesus, I should be baptized by immersion as an adult. For the next twenty years I was an active member of the church. Around the age of fifty, however, some doubts that had always been present began to reemerge and after a period of reading and reflection I realized that I no longer believed. I now regret my years as a Christian, I reject Jesus and the Bible and I believe in no god; I am an agnostic atheist.

Given all this, can you determine whether I am one of His people or not?

I understand that you believe I either always was or always was not, that I didn't go from being one of them to not being one of them, or vice versa. If I AM one of his people, am I certain to return to faith in him? If I am NOT one of his people, am I doomed to Hell, or could I somehow be saved anyway by turning to him?

I guess it is this latter possibility that confuses me, as regards your beliefs: the possibility that I am not one of His people, but I could still be saved by making the right choice.

I hope my questions were clear. They always seem clear to me, at least when I first write them...

Good morning.

The Catholic Church is Christian. It does have many things I disagree with. But nowadays the same is true with the Protestant Church. Church of Christ is a good church but they do believe you can lose your salvation, which I disagree with.

I believe I touched on what you are asking in my post #454. You have described yourself as a believer and then a non-believer. Whether one is of God or not of God is known to God. Not me.

I will say this, salvation is not a flippant thing one can go in and out of. If one is a believer, he cannot choose to be a non-believer. The believer may turn away from God, but God will not let him go. I realize many will disagree with me here, but it is my understanding of the Bible. Understand that I believe also that God will stop at nothing to restore the believer. And that could be unpleasant. I am not saying this pertains to you. It is my understanding.

Your questions were clear. I doubt I answered you fully.

Stranger

June 27, 2017

Hell is a place of 'good'. It displays the righteous judgement of God.

Stranger

That I believe there is a hell, yes. That I revel in people being in hell, no. That I recognize God is just in what He does, yes.

Stranger

Ah yes, because as Scripture tells us, "Whoever slaps you on your right cheek, throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him be cast into the outer darkness also." Christianity can teach us so much about morality in our daily lives.

June 27, 2017

The creation was made by God. The laws of the creation were made by God. Because there is an order in these things man can rightly deduce truths about the creation using reason which was originally given by God. (Gen. 1:28) After the fall of man, man still reasons, but it is reason that excludes God. Man can still learn truths about the creation, but man excludes God always in his findings.

Very simply put, the reason of the world excludes God. The reason of God and the believer acknowledges God.

I do not go against them. But I acknowledge that man is fallen and thus his logic and reason are now against God. Which I say is illogical. But then...I am a believer.

Stranger

To that, I have a few questions:

1) Is it possible that your "fallen" understanding is incorrect? I know that's a bit of a mindf%$k, but for argument's sake... couldn't another Christian who is more "in Him" and more "righteous" be correct in his/her understanding of scripture? Or perhaps it has nothing to do with righteousness, what if god has spoken to someone else and not you? Or what if you are taking the "god created, god given" law of logic and perverting it to exclude him, but then saying we are doing it? What if you are spreading misinformation that costs one of us our soul? Proverbs says not to lean on your own understanding....do you think you are doing this here?

2) To touch on an earlier comment, it still isn't making one ounce of sense to me that God should "owe himself what he is due." It is....like impossible for me to pay myself $5, because my child slave's $5 isn't acceptable, and have it be meaningful. Nothing has changed, in fact, I have canceled out my own debt by declaring the debt paid? There is no sarcasm here, this legitimately confuses the shit out of me. If I declare to myself that something is owed to me that no one can possibly pay on their own, it must be my own sacrifice.....can't I just say, "lol nevermind, I'm good, I took care of it?"

3) Furthermore, isn't sending us to hell "not forgiving us" which would make him guilty of his own commandment to us? If he tells us to forgive those who hate us....declares that by our sin we hate god....sends us to hell....is this not a transgression against his own law?

4) How do you think the Bible got here? Like do you think there was a scribe in Eden transcribing the events? How did the people that wrote the Bible know that they were speaking for God and not just writing down their own opinion? Are you writing scripture now in being "inspired" by him? What makes the bible different from these forum posts by you?

June 27, 2017

Good morning.

The Catholic Church is Christian. It does have many things I disagree with. But nowadays the same is true with the Protestant Church. Church of Christ is a good church but they do believe you can lose your salvation, which I disagree with.

I believe I touched on what you are asking in my post #454. You have described yourself as a believer and then a non-believer. Whether one is of God or not of God is known to God. Not me.

I will say this, salvation is not a flippant thing one can go in and out of. If one is a believer, he cannot choose to be a non-believer. The believer may turn away from God, but God will not let him go. I realize many will disagree with me here, but it is my understanding of the Bible. Understand that I believe also that God will stop at nothing to restore the believer. And that could be unpleasant. I am not saying this pertains to you. It is my understanding.

Your questions were clear. I doubt I answered you fully.

Stranger

I appreciate you answering my questions. I also appreciate your respectful approach. You are a man of faith, I am not. I'm not one of His people. That's OK with me. We are poles apart, but I wish you well, Stranger.

June 27, 2017

I will say this, salvation is not a flippant thing one can go in and out of. If one is a believer, he cannot choose to be a non-believer.

Emphasis mine.

Choice has nothing to do with it. Sometimes you just start questioning, and in time the questions destroy the faith that you wanted so desperately to keep.

Personally I believe that "salvation" is a complete and utter myth, and that your god is mythical, and that heaven and hell are mythical, and that no one gets eternal life because that, too is just a myth.

Words on an Internet page cannot adequately convey how deeply I pity you, Stranger. You are wasting the only life you will ever have, and getting nothing but a worthless delusion in exchange for it.

June 27, 2017

To that, I have a few questions:

1) Is it possible that your "fallen" understanding is incorrect? I know that's a bit of a mindf%$k, but for argument's sake... couldn't another Christian who is more "in Him" and more "righteous" be correct in his/her understanding of scripture? Or perhaps it has nothing to do with righteousness, what if god has spoken to someone else and not you? Or what if you are taking the "god created, god given" law of logic and perverting it to exclude him, but then saying we are doing it? What if you are spreading misinformation that costs one of us our soul? Proverbs says not to lean on your own understanding....do you think you are doing this here?

2) To touch on an earlier comment, it still isn't making one ounce of sense to me that God should "owe himself what he is due." It is....like impossible for me to pay myself $5, because my child slave's $5 isn't acceptable, and have it be meaningful. Nothing has changed, in fact, I have canceled out my own debt by declaring the debt paid? There is no sarcasm here, this legitimately confuses the shit out of me. If I declare to myself that something is owed to me that no one can possibly pay on their own, it must be my own sacrifice.....can't I just say, "lol nevermind, I'm good, I took care of it?"

3) Furthermore, isn't sending us to hell "not forgiving us" which would make him guilty of his own commandment to us? If he tells us to forgive those who hate us....declares that by our sin we hate god....sends us to hell....is this not a transgression against his own law?

4) How do you think the Bible got here? Like do you think there was a scribe in Eden transcribing the events? How did the people that wrote the Bible know that they were speaking for God and not just writing down their own opinion? Are you writing scripture now in being "inspired" by him? What makes the bible different from these forum posts by you?

1.) Yes, of course I can be mistaken and others can show me where in the Bible I have made the mistake. And God does not just speak to me. He speaks to all through the Bible. I do not believe I am leaning to my own understanding. Some things I say are very difficult to say as they do go against the way I would have done it. If I am wrong then the Bible must not be the Word of God. I'm not sure what I have said that would cost one their soul.

2.) No. God cannot just say I took care of it. He must take care of it.

For example: John Doe is lost. God is up there in Heaven and sees John Doe. God says, I sure like old John. I would like him to be here in Heaven with Me so I will forget the Sin thing. And when John dies God opens the gates of Heaven to let him in. But then there is immediate judgement from God that destroys John.

God righteous nature will not allow sin in His presence without judgement. He cannot just say it's ok to be here. He must make it right that the believer is there. He must really and literally remove the sin. Only in this way can He be both 'just and the justifier'. (Rom. 3:26)

3.) The Christian is to exercise forgiveness to others. But, our forgiveness is not the same as God's. If we are wronged and forgive those who wronged us, we in essence are saying, let it go. Any wrong done to me I will not pursue any action against. But, God must deal with every wrong. And only as God has dealt with every wrong can He forgive that wrong. This is why Jesus Christ was not forgiving sins on the cross. He was paying for Sin. Now that the payment is made, He can forgive.

I realize Jesus said on the cross, 'Father forgive them for they know not what they do'. But that was Christ interceding for those who were having Him nailed to the cross, for the purpose of staying the Fathers hand that it might not come against them at that moment.

So, God does forgive, but it is only as the sin has been paid for. It has been paid in Christ. If one is not in Christ, it has not been paid.

4.) I don't believe there was any scribe in Eden. I believe the first five books of the Bible would be written by Moses. This would be something like 15th century b.c. After him others would be 'inspired' by God to write. Moses would surely know that what he wrote was from God, as God wrote it first and then Moses had to write it. Later, I believe many did know that what they wrote was the Word of God. But maybe not all. God used men to write His Word. Men would be addressing a certain immediate situation that concerned them. But God was writing another chapter in His Book.

I certainly am not writing Scripture. Nor is anyone else today. God can give believers understanding in His Word as they mature. But this is not the same as writing under inspiration which results in Scripture.

Stranger

June 27, 2017

Emphasis mine.

Choice has nothing to do with it. Sometimes you just start questioning, and in time the questions destroy the faith that you wanted so desperately to keep.

Personally I believe that "salvation" is a complete and utter myth, and that your god is mythical, and that heaven and hell are mythical, and that no one gets eternal life because that, too is just a myth.

Words on an Internet page cannot adequately convey how deeply I pity you, Stranger. You are wasting the only life you will ever have, and getting nothing but a worthless delusion in exchange for it.

I understand questioning. I don't understand 'questioning' destroying faith. If that faith was not mine in the first place, how is it my questions can destroy it? (Eph. 2:8)

I believe you are sincere in what you are saying. I appreciate your concern.

Stranger

June 27, 2017

I appreciate you answering my questions. I also appreciate your respectful approach. You are a man of faith, I am not. I'm not one of His people. That's OK with me. We are poles apart, but I wish you well, Stranger.

You're welcome. I wish you well also.

Stranger

June 27, 2017

I don't follow. Do you want me to cite an example contrary to my belief?

Stranger

Not exactly.

I'd like you to provide a worked example of your methodology for dismissing something from science that you consider to be contrary to the Bible.

I'd like to find out more about just how much you actually understand about science. Not what you've been indoctrinated to think about science - but your actual understanding of what it is, what it does and what it doesn't do.

I reckon that this will reveal flaws, gaps and errors in your understanding.

Which may well mean that you reject it for improper reasons. That is, you reject it because of what you mistakenly believe it is and not what it actually is. Meaning that you condemn it and dismiss it on a false basis.

After all, wouldn't you agree that it's best to judge things for what they actually are and not what they are wrongly made out to be?

June 27, 2017

I understand. I am about done myself for today.

I am no scientist. So, how does GR conflict with the Bible? And why shouldn't I use products or services provided by it?

Stranger

GR conflicts with the Bible because of it's prediction of and confirming evidence of the universe being infinite in size.

In an infinitely-large universe matter and energy can only arrange themselves into stars, planets and people in a finite number of ways. So, when infinity is divided by any finite number, the result is always... infinity. In a nutshell, this math tells us that there are an infinite number of copies of everything in the universe. An infinite number of Strangers, an infinite number of BAA's and an infinite number of everyone, all populating an infinite number of Earth's, strewn across infinite space.

This means that Adam and Eve fell from grace an infinite number of times in an infinite number of Edens and an infinite number of Jesus Christs had to die on an infinite number of crosses to save the humans on each of those Earths.

That contradicts the Bible, wouldn't you say?

But before we get into products and services, I'll let you respond, Stranger.

How you do that and what you say should illuminate just how much you really understand of science.

Thanks,

BAA.

June 27, 2017

Yes. But the first act is God placing the believer in the Christian family.

Stranger

To our eyes, how is this in any way different from a child being indoctrinated by their Christian family?

June 27, 2017

I understand questioning. I don't understand 'questioning' destroying faith. If that faith was not mine in the first place, how is it my questions can destroy it? (Eph. 2:8)

I believe you are sincere in what you are saying. I appreciate your concern.

Stranger

When people question a contradiction in the bible, different people come to different conclusions. You might just say, "I don't know, but God is always right and my faith is unshakable. That contradiction is a mystery."

Other believers who may be growing weary of Christianity for whatever reason may begin to doubt their faith and start to compile evidence against it by finding more contradictions in the bible or in the illogic of their faith.

I think people change their thinking over the years. Plenty of people here who were on fire for Jesus started to value logic, reason, and critical thinking more than faith. Questioning destroyed their faith. Have you ever questioned God's authority? Maybe a better word than 'questioning' is 'challenging the validity of'.

Why do you accept without challenge that Jesus is your Lord?

June 27, 2017

Yes. But the first act is God placing the believer in the Christian family.

Stranger

So God places a 'believing' infant into a 'believing' family to teach the child 'His ways.' So much for free will. Sounds like a family of Christbots programmed to serve the Master. What a fun life that must be. I bet there is substantial obsessive behavior in a Christbot family.

June 27, 2017

I'm finding this thread increasingly depressing to read. It is such a tragedy that so many people prefer belief over fact. I feel helpless and sad.

June 27, 2017

1.) Yes, of course I can be mistaken and others can show me where in the Bible I have made the mistake. And God does not just speak to me. He speaks to all through the Bible. I do not believe I am leaning to my own understanding. Some things I say are very difficult to say as they do go against the way I would have done it. If I am wrong then the Bible must not be the Word of God. I'm not sure what I have said that would cost one their soul.

2.) No. God cannot just say I took care of it. He must take care of it.

For example: John Doe is lost. God is up there in Heaven and sees John Doe. God says, I sure like old John. I would like him to be here in Heaven with Me so I will forget the Sin thing. And when John dies God opens the gates of Heaven to let him in. But then there is immediate judgement from God that destroys John.

God righteous nature will not allow sin in His presence without judgement. He cannot just say it's ok to be here. He must make it right that the believer is there. He must really and literally remove the sin. Only in this way can He be both 'just and the justifier'. (Rom. 3:26)

3.) The Christian is to exercise forgiveness to others. But, our forgiveness is not the same as God's. If we are wronged and forgive those who wronged us, we in essence are saying, let it go. Any wrong done to me I will not pursue any action against. But, God must deal with every wrong. And only as God has dealt with every wrong can He forgive that wrong. This is why Jesus Christ was not forgiving sins on the cross. He was paying for Sin. Now that the payment is made, He can forgive.

I realize Jesus said on the cross, 'Father forgive them for they know not what they do'. But that was Christ interceding for those who were having Him nailed to the cross, for the purpose of staying the Fathers hand that it might not come against them at that moment.

So, God does forgive, but it is only as the sin has been paid for. It has been paid in Christ. If one is not in Christ, it has not been paid.

4.) I don't believe there was any scribe in Eden. I believe the first five books of the Bible would be written by Moses. This would be something like 15th century b.c. After him others would be 'inspired' by God to write. Moses would surely know that what he wrote was from God, as God wrote it first and then Moses had to write it. Later, I believe many did know that what they wrote was the Word of God. But maybe not all. God used men to write His Word. Men would be addressing a certain immediate situation that concerned them. But God was writing another chapter in His Book.

I certainly am not writing Scripture. Nor is anyone else today. God can give believers understanding in His Word as they mature. But this is not the same as writing under inspiration which results in Scripture.

Stranger

1) Are we not included in "others?" Wasn't "Pharoh's hardened heart" ultimately used for his will? What if god is using us heathens to put a hole in your erroneous thinking? Also, it's still "your understanding" if you don't believe you are leaning on your own understanding.

2) Where is this "immediate judgment" you are talking about in Scripture? We are talking in hypotheticals, it sounds like you think you know for sure what would happen.

Counter Example: Your mother is a conservative and she raises you this way. She teaches you things like, "homosexuality is wrong," "don't cuss," "don't smoke the weed," "don't drink." You grow up, decide to reject those values and live your own life. You embrace friends who are gay, cuss, drink, and smoke. If she declares to you that you owe her for all your childhood expenses....and that nothing you pay personally will suffice. But only her own money (or possibly your near-perfect, conservative half-brother's reincarnated money) (I'll ignore the creepiness of blood atonement for now) will do as atonement....does your mother not also have the option to just call off the declared debt? Isn't she already calling it off by paying herself? When you say "God doesn't have the option, it's in his nature...." that is a ludicrous statement if he is omnipotent. If he's omnipotent, he can change it or he isn't omnipotent.

3) Why in the world is our forgiveness not the same as God's? Why must God deal with "every wrong?"

4) How did Moses know that it was real and not our version of "Cinderella's once upon a time?"

June 27, 2017

Not exactly.

I'd like you to provide a worked example of your methodology for dismissing something from science that you consider to be contrary to the Bible.

I'd like to find out more about just how much you actually understand about science. Not what you've been indoctrinated to think about science - but your actual understanding of what it is, what it does and what it doesn't do.

I reckon that this will reveal flaws, gaps and errors in your understanding.

Which may well mean that you reject it for improper reasons. That is, you reject it because of what you mistakenly believe it is and not what it actually is. Meaning that you condemn it and dismiss it on a false basis.

After all, wouldn't you agree that it's best to judge things for what they actually are and not what they are wrongly made out to be?

As I said, I am not a scientist. But, I know when something in science or scientist's are going against the Bible. And once it does, then I ignore science and believe the Bible.

As for an example, I would say the flood of Noah or evolution. I'm not sure if that is what you want, but I would use them.

Understand...I don't reject science. I reject science when it is in conflict with the Bible.

Can science really say how things actually are? I mean...that really is only possible when all knowledge is known. Isn't it?

Stranger

June 27, 2017

GR conflicts with the Bible because of it's prediction of and confirming evidence of the universe being infinite in size.

In an infinitely-large universe matter and energy can only arrange themselves into stars, planets and people in a finite number of ways. So, when infinity is divided by any finite number, the result is always... infinity. In a nutshell, this math tells us that there are an infinite number of copies of everything in the universe. An infinite number of Strangers, an infinite number of BAA's and an infinite number of everyone, all populating an infinite number of Earth's, strewn across infinite space.

This means that Adam and Eve fell from grace an infinite number of times in an infinite number of Edens and an infinite number of Jesus Christs had to die on an infinite number of crosses to save the humans on each of those Earths.

That contradicts the Bible, wouldn't you say?

But before we get into products and services, I'll let you respond, Stranger.

How you do that and what you say should illuminate just how much you really understand of science.

Thanks,

BAA.

Yes, that would contradict the Bible which means I would reject it.

Stranger

June 27, 2017

To our eyes, how is this in any way different from a child being indoctrinated by their Christian family?

It isn't. But the important thing is, that is what God wants. God places His people among His people.

And, why is it wrong to teach your children what you believe to be right? Don't you?

Stranger

June 27, 2017

As I said, I am not a scientist. But, I know when something in science or scientist's are going against the Bible. And once it does, then I ignore science and believe the Bible.

How do you know? Please be exact.

As for an example, I would say the flood of Noah or evolution. I'm not sure if that is what you want, but I would use them.

Then let us see the science that supports them.

Understand...I don't reject science. I reject science when it is in conflict with the Bible.

Examples please.

Can science really say how things actually are? I mean...that really is only possible when all knowledge is known. Isn't it?

Yes. It can. It does.

Total knowledge isn't necessary to know things. A total knowledge of all math isn't necessary to know that 2 + 2 = 4. A total knowledge of every road in the world isn't necessary for me to go to the mall. And so it goes for many, many things. Your point is simply wrong.

Stranger

June 27, 2017

When people question a contradiction in the bible, different people come to different conclusions. You might just say, "I don't know, but God is always right and my faith is unshakable. That contradiction is a mystery."

Other believers who may be growing weary of Christianity for whatever reason may begin to doubt their faith and start to compile evidence against it by finding more contradictions in the bible or in the illogic of their faith.

I think people change their thinking over the years. Plenty of people here who were on fire for Jesus started to value logic, reason, and critical thinking more than faith. Questioning destroyed their faith. Have you ever questioned God's authority? Maybe a better word than 'questioning' is 'challenging the validity of'.

Why do you accept without challenge that Jesus is your Lord?

First of all, no Christian knows all the Bible. We are always learning. There are apparent contradictions but I as a believer am willing to wait until I have the answer. So, just because a believer doesn't have an answer, should not discourage the believer. We are learning.

I have never questioned God's authority. I have asked why. I have gotten mad. But I never question His authority.

Because Jesus Christ is my Lord.

Stranger

June 27, 2017

So God places a 'believing' infant into a 'believing' family to teach the child 'His ways.' So much for free will. Sounds like a family of Christbots programmed to serve the Master. What a fun life that must be. I bet there is substantial obsessive behavior in a Christbot family.

As I have said, I don't believe there is any 'free' will. We have a will but it is always acted upon by other sources.

Who are you serving?

Stranger

June 27, 2017

Yes, that would contradict the Bible which means I would reject it.

Stranger

Well, you don't need to be a scientist to understand the following.

General Relativity is fundamental to GPS. http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html

GPS affects your life in the following ways.

https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-12.0/centery:25.0/zoom:4

http://www.gps.gov/applications/aviation/

http://heavy.com/tech/2015/02/top-best-gps-navigation-tracking-devices-for-cars-car/

http://us.gps-phonetracker.com/

Any time you rely on GPS for driving or use any product that traveled to where you bought it, you are relying on General Relativity.

Anything that has been shipped or flown into this country has come via GPS and therefore via General Relativity.

When you've flown you've unwittingly put your trust in GPS and therefore General Relativity.

General Relativity affects you, every hour of every day.

Still reject it?

Christians: Why would an all-good God base our salvation from Hell on whether or not we believe in a 2,000-year-old supernatural story?

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