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Christians: Why would an all-good God base our salvation from Hell on whether or not we believe in a 2,000-year-old supernatural story?


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This is objectively wrong. For a full discussion, you can see The Bible Made Impossible by believer(!) Christian Smith. Short version: Even if we grant the assumption that the Bible is God's perfect r

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I'm describing you about as "dishonestly" as you are describing us. You may not be meaning to convey that you think we are these ignorant rebels, who "understand not what we do," but that's wrong. We

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I believe it is because God did not want just perfect individuals.   He created Adam and Eve and they were perfect and without sin.   But, they were not as God.  They were not literally born of Him.   They were created by Him.   And God wanted those to be born of Him.   And so when God creates, He creates with His righteousness in view.  He must create so that nothing goes against His righteous character.  

 

So God did not want just sinless individuals.  He wanted those born of Him.  And so death and rebirth was the process He chose.  He now gets, not just sinless ones, but He gets ones born of Him and redeemed from sin.  And they are as righteous as God.   They are truly 'sons of God'.  They are of Him.

 

Stranger

 

So why didn't God simply create humans that were born of Him in the first place, Stranger?

 

 

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I believe it is because God did not want just perfect individuals.   He created Adam and Eve and they were perfect and without sin.   But, they were not as God.  They were not literally born of Him.   They were created by Him.   And God wanted those to be born of Him.   And so when God creates, He creates with His righteousness in view.  He must create so that nothing goes against His righteous character.  

 

So God did not want just sinless individuals.  He wanted those born of Him.  And so death and rebirth was the process He chose.  He now gets, not just sinless ones, but He gets ones born of Him and redeemed from sin.  And they are as righteous as God.   They are truly 'sons of God'.  They are of Him.

 

Stranger

 

You've introduced a new concept into this thread, Stranger.  

That of being, 'Born of God'.  It falls to you to explain what this phrase means.  

 

If you have to appeal to faith to do so, then I'm afraid you're are committing a logical fallacy.  

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/31/Appeal-to-Faith

 

If you cannot explain what this phrase means without using faith, then your 'explanation' of what it means is no explanation at all.

It is nothing more than an statement of faith on your part.  Which leaves us no closer to understanding what you mean by being, Born of God.

 

Please explain what this means.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

 

 

 

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 Does that help?

 

Not at all.

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So why didn't God simply create humans that were born of Him in the first place, Stranger?

 

 

 

I believe because the creative act is different than being born of One.

 

Stranger

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I believe because the creative act is different than being born of One.

 

Stranger

 

Ah... so this is a belief of yours?

 

Meaning that you cannot explain the difference between that which is created by God and that which is born of God ...except by resorting to faith?

 

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Ah... so this is a belief of yours?

 

Meaning that you cannot explain the difference between that which is created by God and that which is born of God ...except by resorting to faith?

 

 

No, meaning I believe that which is created by God is different than that which is born of God.   If by faith, you mean I believe the Bible, then yes.

 

Stanger

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No, meaning I believe that which is created by God is different than that which is born of God.   If by faith, you mean I believe the Bible, then yes.

 

Stanger

 

But can you explain the difference between the two without resorting to faith, Stranger?

 

Please note that if you have to refer to the Bible to explain this difference, then you are resorting to faith. 

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But can you explain the difference between the two without resorting to faith, Stranger?

 

Please note that if you have to refer to the Bible to explain this difference, then you are resorting to faith. 

 

If you don't allow me to resort to the Bible, then what can I say?   The Bible is the basis of what I believe.     Indeed I do resort to faith.   

 

Stranger

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You've introduced a new concept into this thread, Stranger.  

That of being, 'Born of God'.  It falls to you to explain what this phrase means.  

 

If you have to appeal to faith to do so, then I'm afraid you're are committing a logical fallacy.  

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/31/Appeal-to-Faith

 

If you cannot explain what this phrase means without using faith, then your 'explanation' of what it means is no explanation at all.

It is nothing more than an statement of faith on your part.  Which leaves us no closer to understanding what you mean by being, Born of God.

 

Please explain what this means.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

 

 

 

 

(John 3:3) says a  man must be 'born again'.   But that phrase 'born again' is really 'born from above'.   Check your concordance.  That speaks of 'origin'.  Later the 'born again' experience is described in (John 3:5) " ...Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."   So, ones origin must be correct in order for him to be able to enter the kingdom of God.   

 

Or, as Christ said, "He that is of God heareth God's words:  ye therefore hear the not, because ye are not of God."

 

If my believing the Bible as the Word of God is faith, and you don't want me to respond in kind,  then I don't know how to answer.  The Christian is a man of faith.

 

Stranger

 

 

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But can you explain the difference between the two without resorting to faith, Stranger?

 

Please note that if you have to refer to the Bible to explain this difference, then you are resorting to faith. 

 

No, I cannot.

 

Yes, I do resort to faith.  

 

Stranger

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So why didn't God simply create humans that were born of Him in the first place, Stranger?

 

 

 

Well, those two terms are opposed.  One is created.  One is born.

 

Stranger

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No, I cannot.

 

Yes, I do resort to faith.  

 

Stranger

 

 

Logic can never defeat faith. 

 

@Stranger First, please define faith. What is faith to you? We need this because I have prior heard of 2-3 definitions of faith, from the same person, that are mutually exclusive to each other.

 

Then explain how using faith is a reliable pathway to determining what is true.

 

Cheers

LF

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Florduh wrote...  'Logic can never defeat faith.'

 

Stranger replied... 'I agree.'

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Yet logic can demonstrate the level of irrationality of Stranger's evidence-free faith.

He believes (by faith and without evidence) that when God creates a person, this is a categorically different process from when a person is 'Born of God'.  So, without using any evidence, he can identify two different supernatural processes - but cannot understand them or explain anything about them.  Also, because they are supernatural, neither of these two different processes can be investigated, explained or understood by unbelievers.  Only believers like Stranger accept that they are real.   Yet even true believers are just as stymied as unbelievers when it comes to investigating, understanding or explaining either of these two processes.  Instead, they are required to accept (without evidence) that they are real, that they are different and that they happen.  

 

So, for all intents and purposes, there seems to be no real difference between Stranger's beliefs and... making shit up.

 

Therefore, the level of rationality of his beliefs equals... making shit up. 

 

(My thanks to sdelsoray for this apt description.)

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

 

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Sorry.

 

Stranger

 

I'll muddle through.

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@Stranger First, please define faith. What is faith to you? We need this because I have prior heard of 2-3 definitions of faith, from the same person, that are mutually exclusive to each other.

 

Then explain how using faith is a reliable pathway to determining what is true.

 

Cheers

LF

 

Faith is simply believing.   It is reliable and necessary to obtain truth about God.  It is so because God has made it so.

 

Stranger

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Florduh wrote...  'Logic can never defeat faith.'

 

Stranger replied... 'I agree.'

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Yet logic can demonstrate the level of irrationality of Stranger's evidence-free faith.

He believes (by faith and without evidence) that when God creates a person, this is a categorically different process from when a person is 'Born of God'.  So, without using any evidence, he can identify two different supernatural processes - but cannot understand them or explain anything about them.  Also, because they are supernatural, neither of these two different processes can be investigated, explained or understood by unbelievers.  Only believers like Stranger accept that they are real.   Yet even true believers are just as stymied as unbelievers when it comes to investigating, understanding or explaining either of these two processes.  Instead, they are required to accept (without evidence) that they are real, that they are different and that they happen.  

 

So, for all intents and purposes, there seems to be no real difference between Stranger's beliefs and... making shit up.

 

Therefore, the level of rationality of his beliefs equals... making shit up. 

 

(My thanks to sdelsoray for this apt description.)

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

 

Religious faith, by definition, is a declaration of ignorance. When one does not KNOW something to be a fact but chooses to believe it anyway, that's faith. No faith is required to believe things that have evidence they are true. All your logic and factual information is summarily dismissed by the faithful as they have no need for truth, only their belief.

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Faith is simply believing.   It is reliable and necessary to obtain truth about God.  It is so because God has made it so.

 

Stranger

 

If faith is simply believing does this make it a reliable pathway to truth? If I simply believe in something, having no good reason to, does that make what I am believing in true?

 

"It is so because God has made it so." This statement holds as much weight as me saying "It is so because my invisible pink unicorn made it so"

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Faith is simply believing.   It is reliable and necessary to obtain truth about God.  It is so because God has made it so.

 

Stranger

 

Correction:

Faith is believing without evidence.  If you had evidence, then you would have a way of checking if what you believe by faith is actually true.  But, without evidence your faith is blind belief.

 

Correction:

You believe by faith that faith is reliable.  However, this is a circular argument and all circular arguments are invalid.

 

Correction:

You believe by faith that faith is necessary to obtain truth about God.  Another invalid, circular argument.

 

Correction:

You believe by faith that God has made it necessary for us to obtain truth about Him by faith.  Circular argument.

 

Correction:

You believe by faith that truth about God can be obtained by faith.  Circular argument.

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Blind belief and four circular arguments in three sentences.  Impressive!

 

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If faith is simply believing does this make it a reliable pathway to truth? If I simply believe in something, having no good reason to, does that make what I am believing in true?

 

"It is so because God has made it so." This statement holds as much weight as me saying "It is so because my invisible pink unicorn made it so"

 

The only reason faith is the only way to know God and the truth about God is because God has set it up that way.   Otherwise, you are correct it could not be trusted.  Anyone could say I believe this or that so it must be so.   And of course that makes no sense.  But concerning God, that is the way He has made to obtain knowlege from Him and about Him.  

 

I realize it sounds ridiculous to you, but that is what Scripture teaches. 

 

Stranger

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Correction:

Faith is believing without evidence.  If you had evidence, then you would have a way of checking if what you believe by faith is actually true.  But, without evidence your faith is blind belief.

 

Correction:

You believe by faith that faith is reliable.  However, this is a circular argument and all circular arguments are invalid.

 

Correction:

You believe by faith that faith is necessary to obtain truth about God.  Another invalid, circular argument.

 

Correction:

You believe by faith that God has made it necessary for us to obtain truth about Him by faith.  Circular argument.

 

Correction:

You believe by faith that truth about God can be obtained by faith.  Circular argument.

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Blind belief and four circular arguments in three sentences.  Impressive!

 

 

That is your faith, not mine.  Mine is simply believing.   It itself is the evidence of things not seen.

 

Understand my belief is not like your belief.  You're portraying 'belief' like I don't know.  Like it may be so or not.   The Christians faith involves knowing.  

 

Well, if it is circular so be it.   Just because it is invalid to you doesn't mean it is not true.  

 

The Christians faith is not blind.  He sees and knows these things are true.

 

Stranger

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