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Goodbye Jesus

Christians: Why would an all-good God base our salvation from Hell on whether or not we believe in a 2,000-year-old supernatural story?


Lyra

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I'm logging off now.

 

When I log back on tomorrow, I wonder what I'll find from the Stranger?

 

More 'honesty'?

 

:wave:

 

Not bothering any more in this thread.

 

Too much 'honesty' for my taste.

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Not bothering any more in this thread.

 

Too much 'honesty' for my taste.

... BAA, you sure did put allot of effort into this retard! Unfortunately you are talking to a stone!

 

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Not bothering any more in this thread.

 

Too much 'honesty' for my taste.

 

Gota admit I'm nearing the end of my physical capacity to continually hit a brick wall with my head.... my head is not that hard!

 

@Realist How dare you pray to a false god. Thou shalt only pray to the one true god" The Invisible Pink Unicorn, and Logical Fallacy is his prophet.

 

Let us intone now: May your noses be raised and your behinds fluffed:

 

Our great pink unicorn who art in rainbow land

Hallowed be thy horn, thy feet be stomped, thy mane shaken

On earth as it is in rainbow land

Give us this day our daily wisdom

And stop us from disparaging those who argue in fallacies

As we try not to argue in fallacies

But give us intellectual honesty 

For thine is the horn of wisdom, logic, and reason

Forever and ever

Neigh! 

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So, you disagree with (Is.9:6).

 

I disagree with the christian interpretation forced upon it. Once you study how the ancients wrote, and what they wrote about you gain a clearer understanding of what's going on.

 

So in Isaiah 7 a sign is given to King Ahaz that a child will be conceived from a young woman who would be a sign that the beleaguered Israelite's would be saved from the Syrians.

 

In chapter 8 verse 3 it says "Then I went to the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son. Then the Lord said to me, “Call his name Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz; for before the child shall have knowledge to cry ‘My father’ and ‘My mother,’ the riches of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria will be taken away before the king of Assyria.”"

 

Then in 9:6 it says "For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." 

 

However, as mentioned for 7:14 this is a massive translation error. The actual verse should read something like: "For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace.""  So the translators got their verbs and subjects way messed up.

 

It is not saying that he would be god, it is saying that god would call his name "prince of peace". And notice the past tense of the verse "For unto us a child is born" What child? The one in 8:3! The Christians are trying to isolate one passage of writing into separate parts when in fact it is one whole passage telling the one story of King Ahaz and trouble with the Syrians.

 

As a Christian I could not understand why the Jews didn't believe what was written in their own writings.... its because its NOT in their writings. It is mistranslated and had meanings forced upon it by those who didn't understand the nuances of the language or its intended meanings.

 

Note that in the KJV version chapter 9 ends "Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this."

 

So the prophesy if you say its Jesus fails any way. Jesus was not of the throne of David, never sat on the throne and ruled over his kingdom, and never had everlasting peace.

 

In order to deal with the, the Christians once again turn to apologetic's and say it's coming. It's always coming, because if its coming, you don't need to worry about it having never happened.

 

 

They are there for God's people to believe and instruct them.

 

The Bible is the Word of God written by God    Should get you started also.  See how easy that was?

 

Stranger

 

Per my portion above, God should have ensured the translations were correct then if he wanted people to believe. 

 

For a Bible written by God, its sure riddled with errors - I just briefed you on translation errors in a small part of the bible, and every single biblical scholar, no matter what their doctrinal differences says there are translation errors, as well as numerous other errors.

 

 

 Yes, sin is another wil against God's will.

 

Ah, so if we take what you said earlier, all sin (i.e. will against gods will) was brought into the world by Adam. Therefore Adam had a will that was not gods will.

 

This raised a quandary - God presumably knew and planned all of this and salvation, therefore everything that occurs is his will, including Adam having a will that was not his will. However this created a logic loop - you can't have everything occurring due to Gods will, but then someone denying that will unless your god is not omnipotent.

 

How can our will be against gods will? If he is omniscient and omnipotent then everything is his will including our will against his will.

 

The only way for our will to be against his would be if his will isn’t absolute and he is not omnipotent.

 

So... which is it?

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How have i demonstrated  it so?

 

Stranger

Because of who you are.

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Blasphemer.....the father would be the FSM and intercession through Florduh....

Not sure where either one of you picked up these fallacious views on prayer.  Let me show you how it should be done:

 

Hail Margee, full of grace.
Our florduh is with thee.
Blessed art thou among heathens
and blessed is the fruit of thy mind,
Kindness.
Holy Margee, Mother of FSM
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our deconversion.
Amen.

 

See?  That is how you're supposed to pray.  Now both of you say 100 Hail Margees apiece to atone for your heresy.  Fucking idolaters.

 

@Margee

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For goodness sake learn to read and comprehend. Really hard having a conversation with someone when you have to hold their hand and walk them through everything you say.

 

Where did I say you changed your position?

 

See 937.

 

Stranger

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You choose to believe that God wrote the bible, yet ironically that is not a biblical belief. In fact I don't know a single Christian who doesn't understand that men wrote the bible.  Is this something that you overheard a grown-up say in Sunday school? What grade are you in, Stranger?

 

I believe God wrote the Bible, yes. 

 

Men were inspired by God to write the Bible.   The words written are the Word of God.

 

I did overhear someone saying that in Sunday school once also.  

 

Does it matter?

 

 

 

 

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I disagree with the christian interpretation forced upon it. Once you study how the ancients wrote, and what they wrote about you gain a clearer understanding of what's going on.

 

So in Isaiah 7 a sign is given to King Ahaz that a child will be conceived from a young woman who would be a sign that the beleaguered Israelite's would be saved from the Syrians.

 

In chapter 8 verse 3 it says "Then I went to the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son. Then the Lord said to me, “Call his name Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz; for before the child shall have knowledge to cry ‘My father’ and ‘My mother,’ the riches of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria will be taken away before the king of Assyria.”"

 

Then in 9:6 it says "For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." 

 

However, as mentioned for 7:14 this is a massive translation error. The actual verse should read something like: "For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace.""  So the translators got their verbs and subjects way messed up.

 

It is not saying that he would be god, it is saying that god would call his name "prince of peace". And notice the past tense of the verse "For unto us a child is born" What child? The one in 8:3! The Christians are trying to isolate one passage of writing into separate parts when in fact it is one whole passage telling the one story of King Ahaz and trouble with the Syrians.

 

As a Christian I could not understand why the Jews didn't believe what was written in their own writings.... its because its NOT in their writings. It is mistranslated and had meanings forced upon it by those who didn't understand the nuances of the language or its intended meanings.

 

Note that in the KJV version chapter 9 ends "Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this."

 

So the prophesy if you say its Jesus fails any way. Jesus was not of the throne of David, never sat on the throne and ruled over his kingdom, and never had everlasting peace.

 

In order to deal with the, the Christians once again turn to apologetic's and say it's coming. It's always coming, because if its coming, you don't need to worry about it having never happened.

 

 

Per my portion above, God should have ensured the translations were correct then if he wanted people to believe. 

 

For a Bible written by God, its sure riddled with errors - I just briefed you on translation errors in a small part of the bible, and every single biblical scholar, no matter what their doctrinal differences says there are translation errors, as well as numerous other errors.

 

 

Ah, so if we take what you said earlier, all sin (i.e. will against gods will) was brought into the world by Adam. Therefore Adam had a will that was not gods will.

 

This raised a quandary - God presumably knew and planned all of this and salvation, therefore everything that occurs is his will, including Adam having a will that was not his will. However this created a logic loop - you can't have everything occurring due to Gods will, but then someone denying that will unless your god is not omnipotent.

 

How can our will be against gods will? If he is omniscient and omnipotent then everything is his will including our will against his will.

 

The only way for our will to be against his would be if his will isn’t absolute and he is not omnipotent.

 

So... which is it?

 

It is important that Jesus be of the Davidic line.   Which He is.  There are many prophecies in the Old Testament yet to be fulfilled.   The thing is still being played out.  

 

Again with (Is.7:14) there is a near and far fulfillment.   The Hebrew word speaks to a young woman of marrying age.  By, implication a virgin.   Yes, the near fulfillment is accomplished in Isaiah's son where  a virgin birth is not necessary.  The farther fulfillment will be the virgin birth of Christ as needed to fulfill the 'seed' of the woman prophecey in (Gen. 3:15)  So, there is nothing wrong in the New Testament translation of  'virgin'.    The prophecy in (Is.9:6-7) does fail if Isaiah's son is the one being spoken of.   This shows it speaks to the future fulfillment.  

 

The translators didn't get the verbs or subjects messed up.  

 

Once Eve and Adam exercised their will contrary to God's will, that was sin.  Until Adam sinned there was no sin in the world of man.   Irregardless of whether God set the stage and the fall was part of His plan, mans will when contrary to God's will is sin.    Man's will was tested at the tree when he ate the fruit which he knew he shouldn't.   Adam did not eat the fruit to fulfill Gods overall plan.   He ate in disobedience.    A will in conflict with God's will.

 

No, God's will is absolute and He is omnipotent.   He accomplishes His will, even through the disobedience of man's will.   

 

Stranger

 

 

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I believe God wrote the Bible, yes. 

 

Men were inspired by God to write the Bible.   The words written are the Word of God.

 

I did overhear someone saying that in Sunday school once also.  

 

Does it matter?

 

 

 

 

Lou Gehrig also inspired a lot of books to be written; but he didn't actually write any of them himself.  There is a big difference.  Maybe not to someone like Stranger, who is clearly incapable of seeing simple distinctions between the meanings of words.

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Lou Gehrig also inspired a lot of books to be written; but he didn't actually write any of them himself.  There is a big difference.  Maybe not to someone like Stranger, who is clearly incapable of seeing simple distinctions between the meanings of words.

 

Yes, there is a big difference.  With Lou Gehrig you have inspiration beginning in individuals and they write about him.  With the Bible, inspiration originates with God and it, the Spirit of God,  comes upon man to write, so that what is written is from God.  See (2 Peter 1:20-21)

 

Stranger

 

 

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And we have already seen that there are numerous "copyist" errors, or "editorial" errors in the bible, not to mention the exponential number of translation errors that arise between the original Aramaic and English, or the original Greek and Spanish.

 

Apparently, yet another thing your "omnipotent" god cannot do is proofread his own "writing".  Maybe that's why he needs so many people to editorialize on his behalf.

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So if the doctor fucks up, is it on him/her or god? Did god predetermine the doctor to screw up, or did they do it on their own?

 

The doctor gets sued... but the family says, "It was God's will. Praise Jesus!" lol.

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Gota admit I'm nearing the end of my physical capacity to continually hit a brick wall with my head.... my head is not that hard!

 

@Realist How dare you pray to a false god. Thou shalt only pray to the one true god" The Invisible Pink Unicorn, and Logical Fallacy is his prophet.

 

Let us intone now: May your noses be raised and your behinds fluffed:

 

Our great pink unicorn who art in rainbow land

Hallowed be thy horn, thy feet be stomped, thy mane shaken

On earth as it is in rainbow land

Give us this day our daily wisdom

And stop us from disparaging those who argue in fallacies

As we try not to argue in fallacies

But give us intellectual honesty 

For thine is the horn of wisdom, logic, and reason

Forever and ever

Neigh! 

 

Neigh-men!

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The doctrine of the holy trinity is, if I recall, not actually found in the bible (feel free to chime in, if I'm wrong @ficino).  

Yes, you're right, Prof. There is no Bible verse that articulates that doctrine.

 

When I was in seminary, our NT prof told the following story (he was a full-bore inerrantist Calvinist). Erasmus, the famous Renaissance scholar, opponent of Luther, faithful but not hardcore Catholic, was editing a Greek New Testament. Erasmus said that the Latin Vulgate was mistaken when it presented a verse that basically states the Trinity doctrine. At I John 5:8, we read, "Because there are three witnesses, the Spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are of one accord." But before those words, the Latin had additional words: "Because there are three witnesses in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three witnesses on earth, the Spirit, the water and the blood..." etc.

 

Erasmus said the additional words in the Latin do not appear in Greek manuscripts, and he was not going to print it in his new edition unless a Greek manuscript attested them. He challenged his opponents to produce a Greek manuscript that contained them. But sure enough, after some months, ta da! - a Greek manuscript was produced that contained these words. The manuscript was written in a modern style of writing. Erasmus grumbled that obviously someone had quickly arranged for a Greek manuscript to be copied with those words translated from the Latin and inserted. But he had to stick with what he had said, so he printed his Greek NT with these words in it. They are known as the Comma Johanneum. No serious Bible prints them today, but they remain in old-style  KJV Bibles.

 

 

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An observation: it merely creates confusion to use a term under one meaning and then in the very next sentence use it under another meaning. E.g. non-physical DNA and then physical DNA, w/ no hint to the reader that "DNA" is being used under different senses.

 

On the other hand, if God's DNA is not some metaphorical sort of DNA but instead is physical, then we're back to God having a body. I Tim 1:17 says that God is invisible. So God's "form" is grasped by the intellect/faith, not by the senses. If Jesus' body is to be taken as "God's body" without qualification, then a lot of work needs to be done to demonstrate that the Father and the Holy Spirit also now have the body that Jesus in his human nature took on. Someone who wants to try to demonstrate the truth of heresies long since condemned needs to do more than throw around slogans like "Trinity". Such a person needs to be careful that all of reality doesn't wind up somehow becoming also God's body, if that person wants to claim he has God's material DNA. David of Dinant was condemned as a heretic for teachings kind of like this. His books were burned, and he managed to escape to a fate unknown. That was when the Church had real cojones and knew how to carry out true Christian love in action. Only problem was the police weren't quick enough.

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See 937.

 

Stranger

 

Back to our reading comprehension lesson:

 

This is what I said verbatim.

"Remember where BAA said you were changing what was being discussed? - you are doing the EXACT same thing here. "

 

Show me where in that sentence that I say you are changing YOUR position.

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It is important that Jesus be of the Davidic line.   Which He is.  There are many prophecies in the Old Testament yet to be fulfilled.   The thing is still being played out.

 

Does Jesus have an earthly father?

 

 

  Again with (Is.7:14) there is a near and far fulfillment.   This shows it speaks to the future fulfillment.

 

Justify your belief that there is "near and far fulfilment". You ar essentially holding the doctrine that all scriptures have compound meaning and revelation - however there is no justification for this doctrine. It's made up by Christians taking verses out of context.

 

 

The translators didn't get the verbs or subjects messed up. 

 

Yeah, they did. Go study bible translation history instead of blindly believing that your favourite translation has come down without any errors.

 

 

A will (Adams) in conflict with God's will.

 

No, God's will is absolute and He is omnipotent.   He accomplishes His will, even through the disobedience of man's will.   

 

Ok, this time this is an Oxymoron.

 

Perhaps you don't understand the meaning of the terms "absolute" and "omnipotent"

 

Essentially they mean nothing can happen outside of the subjects (God) will. So mans will against gods will is because it is gods will.

 

If God had a plan, and that plan included man sinning, then by definition man did not go against gods will. Seriously the concept that man can do anything against omnipotent absolute will is an oxymoron. It's a contradiction in terms. So you have a problem that needs resolving. Either God is omnipotent and everything that happens is his will, or he is not omnipotent and things happen outside his will. Which is it?

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Back to our reading comprehension lesson:

 

This is what I said verbatim.

"Remember where BAA said you were changing what was being discussed? - you are doing the EXACT same thing here. "

 

Show me where in that sentence that I say you are changing YOUR position.

 

Just reread.  I don't know what to tell  you if you can't see itl

 

Stranger

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Just reread.  I don't know what to tell  you if you can't see itl

 

Stranger

PicardDoubleFacepalm-1.jpg

 

At... which... point.... did... I... say.... you.... changed.... YOUR position (Look your is in caps, it is emphasised, you said I claimed that you changed YOUR POSITION - look more emphasis) 

 

Now children, remember our school lessons and how the sentence structure interacts. So I am asking you to identify when in my sentence that I say you changed YOUR (emphasis) position.

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Does Jesus have an earthly father?

 

 

Justify your belief that there is "near and far fulfilment". You ar essentially holding the doctrine that all scriptures have compound meaning and revelation - however there is no justification for this doctrine. It's made up by Christians taking verses out of context.

 

 

Yeah, they did. Go study bible translation history instead of blindly believing that your favourite translation has come down without any errors.

 

 

Ok, this time this is an Oxymoron.

 

Perhaps you don't understand the meaning of the terms "absolute" and "omnipotent"

 

Essentially they mean nothing can happen outside of the subjects (God) will. So mans will against gods will is because it is gods will.

 

If God had a plan, and that plan included man sinning, then by definition man did not go against gods will. Seriously the concept that man can do anything against omnipotent absolute will is an oxymoron. It's a contradiction in terms. So you have a problem that needs resolving. Either God is omnipotent and everything that happens is his will, or he is not omnipotent and things happen outside his will. Which is it?

 

No.

 

If there is not a near fulfillment, then the prophets message means nothing to those to whom he prophecied.   I already showed how a future fulfillment was necessary.   

 

The Bible translators knew the Greek and Hebrew.   They translated correctly.   

 

Omnipotent means God is all powerful.     Which He is.   Man's will in conflict with God's will, does not make God not omnipotent.  God will accomplish His will.  Irregardless.   Adam went against God's will in disobeying the command concerning the fruit.   Simple as that.  Sin entered the world.   

 

God is omnipotent and will accomplish His will irregardless of any other will against His will.  

 

Stranger

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PicardDoubleFacepalm-1.jpg

 

At... which... point.... did... I... say.... you.... changed.... YOUR position (Look your is in caps, it is emphasised, you said I claimed that you changed YOUR POSITION - look more emphasis) 

 

Now children, remember our school lessons and how the sentence structure interacts. So I am asking you to identify when in my sentence that I say you changed YOUR (emphasis) position.

 

Nice picture.   I know how you feel.

 

Stranger

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I see how Stranger likes to ignore when he is told what words actually mean, opposed to what he wants them to mean.

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If there is not a near fulfillment, then the prophets message means nothing to those to whom he prophecied.   

Stranger

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.  Matthew 24:34

 

OOPS!

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Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.  Matthew 24:34

 

OOPS!

 

Why oops?

 

Stranger

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