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Christians: Why would an all-good God base our salvation from Hell on whether or not we believe in a 2,000-year-old supernatural story?

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Just because it is true to you does not mean that it is all-encompassing true. Just because you think or "know" something doesn't make it fact.

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That is your faith, not mine.  Mine is simply believing.   It itself is the evidence of things not seen.

 

Understand my belief is not like your belief.  You're portraying 'belief' like I don't know.  Like it may be so or not.   The Christians faith involves knowing.  

 

Well, if it is circular so be it.   Just because it is invalid to you doesn't mean it is not true.  

 

The Christians faith is not blind.  He sees and knows these things are true.

 

Stranger

 

We have a gnostic theist here, folks.  That makes for a better and longer lasting chew toy.

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The only reason faith is the only way to know God and the truth about God is because God has set it up that way.   Otherwise, you are correct it could not be trusted.  Anyone could say I believe this or that so it must be so.   And of course that makes no sense.  But concerning God, that is the way He has made to obtain knowlege from Him and about Him.  

 

I realize it sounds ridiculous to you, but that is what Scripture teaches. 

 

Stranger

 

Why would you trust and love a god that demands faith in order to receive information about him? Does he hide himself for a reason? Does he want people to not be saved? Why not use facts, logic, and evidence to reveal truth about himself? Wouldn't that make more sense? If that was the case, then faith would not be required. What scripture teaches is that it is better to be gullible and believe without evidence.

 

The claim that "Faith is the evidence of things hoped for and unseen" is nothing but an assertion, with no evidence to back it up. One could also say that "faith is the evidence of the invisible pink unicorn". Both assertions would still be false.

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Why would you trust and love a god that demands faith in order to receive information about him? Does he hide himself for a reason? Does he want people to not be saved? Why not use facts, logic, and evidence to reveal truth about himself. Wouldn't that make more sense? If that was the case, then faith would not be required. What scripture teaches is that it is better to be gullible and believe without evidence.

 

The claim that "Faith is the evidence of things hoped for and unseen" is nothing but an assertion, with no evidence to back it up. One could also say that "faith is the evidence of the invisible pink unicorn". Both assertions would still be false.

 

I'm out of likes for the day, but I give you a hearty "Amen!"

 

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Why would you trust and love a god that demands faith in order to receive information about him? Does he hide himself for a reason? Does he want people to not be saved? Why not use facts, logic, and evidence to reveal truth about himself? Wouldn't that make more sense? If that was the case, then faith would not be required. What scripture teaches is that it is better to be gullible and believe without evidence.

 

The claim that "Faith is the evidence of things hoped for and unseen" is nothing but an assertion, with no evidence to back it up. One could also say that "faith is the evidence of the invisible pink unicorn". Both assertions would still be false.

 

Yes. He hides Himself for a reason.  Yes, He wants people to be saved.   He doesn't use facts and logic of man because that doesn't draw His people to Him.  He uses what draws His people.  That is faith.   That is certainly proven by the resistance of those who hate this coming 'by faith'.

 

The faith that God requires is the faith that He gives.  Thus He knows who are His.

 

Well, faith is just an assertion to you.  The jury is out. And will be out until that day.  And on that day...we will know...for better or worse.

 

Stranger

 

 

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The only reason faith is the only way to know God and the truth about God is because God has set it up that way.   Otherwise, you are correct it could not be trusted.  Anyone could say I believe this or that so it must be so.   And of course that makes no sense.  But concerning God, that is the way He has made to obtain knowlege from Him and about Him.  

 

I realize it sounds ridiculous to you, but that is what Scripture teaches. 

 

Stranger

 

You realise that saying you have evidence because you have faith, and faith is the evidence is a circular argument?

 

"but that is what Scripture teaches" We are Ex-Christians......... we know what is taught. We disagree with it.

 

You haven't answered how faith is a reliable pathway to truth. If I have faith in Zeus, is my faith justified? How do you determine that your faith in your god is correct? Do you have faith that your faith is correct?

 

 

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Just because it is true to you does not mean that it is all-encompassing true. Just because you think or "know" something doesn't make it fact.

 

Well, I agree.  Just because I believe something doesn't make it true.  It is either true or not.   And, just because one does not believe it, doesn't make it untrue.  It is either true or not.  

 

Stranger

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Yes. He hides Himself for a reason.  Yes, He wants people to be saved.   He doesn't use facts and logic of man because that doesn't draw His people to Him.  He uses what draws His people.  That is faith.   That is certainly proven by the resistance of those who hate this coming 'by faith'.

 

The faith that God requires is the faith that He gives.  Thus He knows who are His.

 

Well, faith is just an assertion to you.  The jury is out. And will be out until that day.  And on that day...we will know...for better or worse.

 

Stranger

 

 

 

If he wanted people to be saved, then he would demonstrate his existence to everyone in a way that he already knows would make them believe. If, as you say, he chooses not to, then he must not want everyone to be saved. If that is the case, then it means that he WANTS people in Hell (whether that is merely separation from him or eternal sadistic torment). For some people, they can only rely on facts and logic to believe something. Why leave people out for only that reason?

 

It seems to me that only the gullible are "His", while those who are able to think for themselves are not. Why would that be? How do you know your god isn't the devil, intentionally trying to deceive the gullible?

 

What you believe ARE just assertions. Not to me or anyone in particular, they just ARE, until they can be demonstrated as correct. The jury is certainly not out on this, because if it was, then everyone would have all of the facts and everyone would know that your god is real, instead of just merely believing. Belief =/= Knowledge. They are entirely different.

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Well, I agree.  Just because I believe something doesn't make it true.  It is either true or not.   And, just because one does not believe it, doesn't make it untrue.  It is either true or not.  

 

Stranger

I agree with this. The bible is either true or not true. Given how the bible does not correlate with the world outside it, however, it is likely not true.

 

Ah, yes. Putting the burden of proof on me to disprove it. Which is impossible. As one of my favorite books says, 'You can claim that anything exists if the only basis for believing in it is that you can't prove it doesn't exist.' I've already seen that used a dozen times in the few months I've been on this board.

 

You are the one making a claim that your god exists. It is on you to prove that he does; not me to prove that he does not.

 

But you've already said your faith in the bible is truth enough for you. If you can't prove your god outside of the bible, then we are at an impass, with you continuing to go in circles.

 

Personal belief and experience are not proof. You need more than that to claim something is true. If you can provide it, I may just be happy to listen. You'd be the first though.

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That is your faith, not mine.  

 

False.  

There is no faith in anything unseen in my comments.  But since you hold to the definition from Hebrews that faith is evidence of things unseen, then you confirm what I said - that you have no evidence for your beliefs. If you had that evidence it wouldn't be unseen, it would be seen by you. Therefore, my first correction stands.  You believe without evidence, just as Hebrews 11 describes.  I do not need to have faith that this is so - it is a fact.

 

 

 

Mine is simply believing.   It itself is the evidence of things not seen.

 

Yes, exactly.

Belief without evidence.  Since you invoke Hebrews as a justification for that and since you also believe the book of Hebrews by faith and not by evidence, you are using faith to validate faith, which is a circular argument.  All circular arguments are invalid.  That is not a statement of faith on my part, either.  That is a demonstrable fact.  Therefore, my second correction stands.

 

 

 

Understand my belief is not like your belief.  You're portraying 'belief' like I don't know.  Like it may be so or not.   The Christians faith involves knowing.  

 

False.

Hebrews 11 : 3 describes Christians understanding without evidence, not knowing without evidence.  There is a vital difference.  http://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/11-3.htm  "By faith we understand..."  http://biblehub.com/greek/3539.htm  So what is being described here is understanding without evidence.  If knowledge were involved then the Koine word would be gnosis.  Since that is not so, your claim does not hold up under scrutiny.  I.e., the facts do not bear it out.  Most likely you believe by faith that the Christian faith involves knowing.  Which would be another circular argument.

 

 

 

Well, if it is circular so be it.   Just because it is invalid to you doesn't mean it is not true.  

 

False.

Since the rules of logical argument apply to us all, what is invalid for all of us is also invalid for you.  However, you seem to be in denial of that fact.  The rules of logical argument apply to us all, whether we accept that fact or not.  

 

 

 

The Christians faith is not blind.  

 

Then you contradict yourself.

How can you see that which isn't seen by you?  

Hebrews 11 : 1... Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

 

 

 

He sees and knows these things are true.

 

Stranger

 

Correction:

You do not know this.  You believe this by faith, not evidence.

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You realise that saying you have evidence because you have faith, and faith is the evidence is a circular argument?

 

"but that is what Scripture teaches" We are Ex-Christians......... we know what is taught. We disagree with it.

 

You haven't answered how faith is a reliable pathway to truth. If I have faith in Zeus, is my faith justified? How do you determine that your faith in your god is correct? Do you have faith that your faith is correct?

 

 

 

If it is a circular argument, then so be it.  I can't change it.  It is valid before God even though you reject it.  

 

OK.  I personally do not think there is any such thing as 'ex-christians'.  Because you know what is taught, doesn't make one a Christian.  

 

No.  if you had faith in Zeus, your faith is not justified.  Did Zeus require faith alone to believe in him in order to obtain eternal life.  In fact, what other religion requires 'faith' in order to be saved?

 

Because I have faith in the true God, I know that my faith is correct. Because that is what He required.    The Christian knows.

 

Stranger

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Well, I agree.  Just because I believe something doesn't make it true.  It is either true or not.   And, just because one does not believe it, doesn't make it untrue.  It is either true or not.  

 

Stranger

The burden of proof is on the one making the assertion. Belief can't define truth, only evidence can do that. You have no evidence.

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I agree with this. The bible is either true or not true. Given how the bible does not correlate with the world outside it, however, it is likely not true.

 

Ah, yes. Putting the burden of proof on me to disprove it. Which is impossible. As one of my favorite books says, 'You can claim that anything exists if the only basis for believing in it is that you can't prove it doesn't exist.' I've already seen that used a dozen times in the few months I've been on this board.

 

You are the one making a claim that your god exists. It is on you to prove that he does; not me to prove that he does not.

 

But you've already said your faith in the bible is truth enough for you. If you can't prove your god outside of the bible, then we are at an impass, with you continuing to go in circles.

 

Personal belief and experience are not proof. You need more than that to claim something is true. If you can provide it, I may just be happy to listen. You'd be the first though.

 

If you are only wanting physical truth...ok...forget the Bible.  It deals also with spiritual and etenal matters.  

 

I don't have to prove God exists.  I know He exists.  I declare that He does exist.  I am not required  by God to prove Him to you.  And His requirement is the only one I am concerned with. 

 

Then we are at an impass.  Nothing wrong with listening.
 

Stranger

 

 

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If it is a circular argument, then so be it.  I can't change it.  It is valid before God even though you reject it.  

 

OK.  I personally do not think there is any such thing as 'ex-christians'.  Because you know what is taught, doesn't make one a Christian.  

 

No.  if you had faith in Zeus, your faith is not justified.  Did Zeus require faith alone to believe in him in order to obtain eternal life.  In fact, what other religion requires 'faith' in order to be saved?

 

Because I have faith in the true God, I know that my faith is correct. Because that is what He required.    The Christian knows.

 

Stranger

 

Correction:

 

The Christian believes (without evidence) that he knows.

Whereas, since the Christian believes without evidence, he does not know at all.  Knowledge cannot be divorced from evidence.

 

Ask Adam and Eve.

They had no knowledge of good or evil and so had no evidence with which to inform the choice they made.  They made a knowledge-free decision.  They did not know, just as any Christian who believes without evidence does not know.

 

Belief without evidence is not knowledge.

 

Knowledge requires evidence.

 

In the absence of evidence, there is no knowledge.

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If you are only wanting physical truth...ok...forget the Bible.  It deals also with spiritual and etenal matters.  

 

I don't have to prove God exists.  I know He exists.  I declare that He does exist.  I am not required  by God to prove Him to you.  And His requirement is the only one I am concerned with. 

 

Then we are at an impass.  Nothing wrong with listening.
 

Stranger

 

 

 

Correction:

 

You believe that God exists.

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False.  

There is no faith in anything unseen in my comments.  But since you hold to the definition from Hebrews that faith is evidence of things unseen, then you confirm what I said - that you have no evidence for your beliefs. If you had that evidence it wouldn't be unseen, it would be seen by you. Therefore, my first correction stands.  You believe without evidence, just as Hebrews 11 describes.  I do not need to have faith that this is so - it is a fact.

 

 

Yes, exactly.

Belief without evidence.  Since you invoke Hebrews as a justification for that and since you also believe the book of Hebrews by faith and not by evidence, you are using faith to validate faith, which is a circular argument.  All circular arguments are invalid.  That is not a statement of faith on my part, either.  That is a demonstrable fact.  Therefore, my second correction stands.

 

 

False.

Hebrews 11 : 3 describes Christians understanding without evidence, not knowing without evidence.  There is a vital difference.  http://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/11-3.htm  "By faith we understand..."  http://biblehub.com/greek/3539.htm  So what is being described here is understanding without evidence.  If knowledge were involved then the Koine word would be gnosis.  Since that is not so, your claim does not hold up under scrutiny.  I.e., the facts do not bear it out.  Most likely you believe by faith that the Christian faith involves knowing.  Which would be another circular argument.

 

 

False.

Since the rules of logical argument apply to us all, what is invalid for all of us is also invalid for you.  However, you seem to be in denial of that fact.  The rules of logical argument apply to us all, whether we accept that fact or not.  

 

 

Then you contradict yourself.

How can you see that which isn't seen by you?  

Hebrews 11 : 1... Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

 

 

Correction:

You do not know this.  You believe this by faith, not evidence.

 

As I have said, faith doesn't need evidence.   It believes.  That is why my faith is not your faith.

 

Sorry, as I have already said, I don't care if my argument is 'circular'.    That it is true is my concern.  

 

(Heb.11:3) says nothing about the believer not knowing without evidence.  It states that by faith the believer knows.   Which is my point. 

 

Reject then what I say if you disagree.  I can't help that.  

 

The believer sees that which is given him of God to see.  His faith is the evidence of things not seen by the world.  The Christians faith is not blind.

 

No.  The Christian knows this.  Faith brings a knowing unknown to the world.

 

Stranger

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As I have said, faith doesn't need evidence.   It believes.  That is why my faith is not your faith.

 

Sorry, as I have already said, I don't care if my argument is 'circular'.    That it is true is my concern.  

 

(Heb.11:3) says nothing about the believer not knowing without evidence.  It states that by faith the believer knows.   Which is my point. 

 

Reject then what I say if you disagree.  I can't help that.  

 

The believer sees that which is given him of God to see.  His faith is the evidence of things not seen by the world.  The Christians faith is not blind.

 

Stranger

No.  The Christian knows this.  Faith brings a knowing unknown to the world.

 

Please show me where Hebrews 11 says that by faith the believer... knows.

 

Start here... http://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/11-1.htm ...and go through each verse of the Koine (New Testament Greek) and find where the word gnosis or one of it's derivatives occurs.  

 

Thanks.

 

 

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...

The bible is either true or not true.

...

 

There is a third possibility.  The Bible is true in part and false in part.

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This one is already beginning to repeat himself.  He doesn't have much material after all.

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If it is a circular argument, then so be it.  I can't change it.  It is valid before God even though you reject it.  

 

Stranger with this one line you just conclusively demonstrated that you don' give a damn about truth. You simply want to believe what you believe. This is an intellectually dishonest position.

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Correction:

 

The Christian believes (without evidence) that he knows.

Whereas, since the Christian believes without evidence, he does not know at all.  Knowledge cannot be divorced from evidence.

 

Ask Adam and Eve.

They had no knowledge of good or evil and so had no evidence with which to inform the choice they made.  They made a knowledge-free decision.  They did not know, just as any Christian who believes without evidence does not know.

 

Belief without evidence is not knowledge.

 

Knowledge requires evidence.

 

In the absence of evidence, there is no knowledge.

 

No, the Christian knows.  Evidence was never a requirement by God.  You disregard the work of the Spirit in giving knowledge.  

 

How was Adam and Eve knowledge free when they were told not to eat of the tree?   That is all they needed to know. 

 

For the Christian, knowledge is based  on their belief.

 

Your knowledge requires evidence.  The believers knowledge  requires faith. 

 

The believer who believes knows.

 

Stanger

 

 

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Stranger with this one line you just conclusively demonstrated that you don' give a damn about truth. You simply want to believe what you believe. This is an intellectually dishonest position.

 

I can only believe what the Scriptures teach concerning what the Scriptures teach.  Indeed anything against that is worthless to me.

 

Stranger

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Correction:

 

You believe that God exists.

 

BAA,

 

You are dealing with someone who is practically devoid of rational thought, at least on this topic.  In addition, he has his own set of definitions for common words, a lack of curiosity and (I predict) a well-developed sense of self-importance and grandiosity lurking below the surface.  Classic Dunning-Kruger.

 

He's stuck with the Scripture, Authority and Revelation addiction.

 

As previously observed, his posts indicate his brain development (particularly the frontal cortex) was and remains severely affected and stifled from years and years of religious indoctrination and peer pressure.  He functions primarily from the primitive limbic system of his brain (emotion), as, no doubt, the Christian cult to which he belongs promotes.

 

Most likely, he'll just keep repeating his religious dogma, logical fallacies and nonsense.  His brain is that atrophied.

 

I had hopes but he's turning out to be a rather pathetic chew toy.

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No, the Christian knows.  

 

Evidence was never a requirement by God.  You disregard the work of the Spirit in giving knowledge.  

 

How was Adam and Eve knowledge free when they were told not to eat of the tree?   That is all they needed to know. 

 

For the Christian, knowledge is based  on their belief.

 

Your knowledge requires evidence.  The believers knowledge  requires faith. 

 

The believer who believes knows.

 

Stanger

 

 

 

All that you claim here depends upon you demonstrating from scripture that belief without evidence equals knowledge.

 

Please demonstrate that.

 

From the original Hebrew or the original Greek.

 

 

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The burden of proof is on the one making the assertion. Belief can't define truth, only evidence can do that. You have no evidence.

 

I don't need evidence.

 

Stranger

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