Christians: Why would an all-good God base our salvation from Hell on whether or not we believe in a 2,000-year-old supernatural story?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

Why oops?

 

Stranger

Why not oops?

[LogicalFallacy]

 

 

Nice picture.   I know how you feel.

 

Stranger

 

So you want to focus on the picture instead of actually honestly owning up to the fact that nowhere did I say you changed YOUR position? (I mean, you don't even question what you believe even when shown to be absolutely wrong about everything)

 

I'll hand you hand and work through what I said. I said you are changing what is being DISCUSSED, not YOUR position. They are two very different things.

 

So please rescind your incorrect assertion that I said you are changing your position.

[Stranger]

 

 

So you want to focus on the picture instead of actually honestly owning up to the fact that nowhere did I say you changed YOUR position? (I mean, you don't even question what you believe even when shown to be absolutely wrong about everything)

 

I'll hand you hand and work through what I said. I said you are changing what is being DISCUSSED, not YOUR position. They are two very different things.

 

So please rescind your incorrect assertion that I said you are changing your position.

 

I already gave you the post number to which I responded.

 

Stranger

[Guest]

 

 

Yes, there is a big difference.  With Lou Gehrig you have inspiration beginning in individuals and they write about him.  With the Bible, inspiration originates with God and it, the Spirit of God,  comes upon man to write, so that what is written is from God [but still not by God].  See (2 Peter 1:20-21)

 

Stranger

 

 

Ah, so you've changed your position now. Now you're saying that men did write the bible and God did not write the bible, but he inspired the men to do the actual writing. As proof of this you offer a bible verse. Ok. So who wrote 2 Peter 20-21?

You've establshed that God didn't sit down and write that. So who did? And why is it impossible for you to believe that inspiration could not have started in the men who wrote the bible? If your answer is "because the bible said so," what you're really saying is "because the men who wrote the bible said so."

 

And in all seriousness, have you graduated highschool yet? I'm just trying to get a handle on your age range. You seem young.

[Stranger]

 

Ah, so you've changed your position now. Now you're saying that men did write the bible and God did not write the bible, but he inspired the men to do the actual writing. As proof of this you offer a bible verse. Ok. So who wrote 2 Peter 20-21?

You've establshed that God didn't sit down and write that. So who did? And why is it impossible for you to believe that inspiration could not have started in the men who wrote the bible? If your answer is "because the bible said so," what you're really saying is "because the men who wrote the bible said so."

 

And in all seriousness, have you graduated highschool yet? I'm just trying to get a handle on your age range. You seem young.

 

I haven't changed my position.  It is God who wrote the Bible.  Men wrote under the inspiration of God's Spirit.  But it was God who wrote the Bible.  

 

Men who wrote under the inspiration of God say so.   

 

Tell me how young I appear to you.

 

Stranger

[LogicalFallacy]

 

 

I already gave you the post number to which I responded.

 

Stranger

 

We are done.

 

You are dishonest, won't consider any points made, cannot comprehend simple concepts and refuse to engage what is being discussed.

 

From now on any posts in this thread will be addressed to the audience to correct your blatantly false assertions.

 

Good day to your sir, I only hope that the effort we Ex-Christians have put in here has helped someone struggling with what was discussed.

[LogicalFallacy]

Dear lurkers

 

I still feel it prudent to correct some misconceptions with what Stranger asserts.

 

 

 The Bible translators knew the Greek and Hebrew.   They translated correctly.

 

If the poster Stranger wants to assert this then he should back it up with references to scholars who hold that there are no translation errors in the bible. As can be seen, he has not done so, he has, as is his custom, merely asserted. Stranger cannot provide references to back his assertion because no scholar holds there are no translation errors.

 

Contrary, many scholars, including Christians, know, and have known for hundreds of years, the many translations and copy errors in the bible.

 

To the subject of the translation error in Isaiah - Our modern English bibles were translated NOT from the Hebrew, but from the Greek Septuagint. When one goes back to earlier Aramaic versions, and scholars specialising in Aramaic they will tell you there are mistranslations. This of course happens when one knows a language but is not intimately familiar with it - we see this all the time in our modern world, where say a Russian can speak English, but sometimes you pick up little errors in their sentence structure. Similar things happened with the translators of the Old Testament, and even the New Testament.

 

Thus Isaiah 9:6 should read that god called the child who was born "prince of peace", not that the child was god.

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I feel it is pointless rehashing what I have already said in regards to the Oxymoron between having an Omnipotent being with absolute will and his creation being able to have a will against that will. It's simply not possible because of the nature of omnipotence and absolute. Therefore one holding the view of omnipotence must accept that god intended for sin to enter the world, and therefore cannot attribute blame to humanity as there was no choice against omnipotent will. If however god is not absolute and omnipotent then I would concede it is possible to act against that gods will.... but then why is that god worth worshiping?

 

If you are having doubts about God and the bible, I feel a great place to start is with the bible itself. How did it come to be, what are its origins, who wrote it, what issues are there with it. Ask these questions, seek the answers.

 

Regards

 

LF

 

[Orbit]

 

 

I believe God wrote the Bible, yes. 

 

Men were inspired by God to write the Bible.   The words written are the Word of God.

 

I did overhear someone saying that in Sunday school once also.  

 

Does it matter?

 

 

 

 

No book is infallible when the interpreter of said book is fallible.

[Guest]

 

 

I haven't changed my position.  It is God who wrote the Bible.  Men wrote under the inspiration of God's Spirit.  But it was God who wrote the Bible.  

 

Men who wrote under the inspiration of God say so.   

 

Tell me how young I appear to you.

 

Stranger

 

Re-Read what you wrote above. Your ignorance of your own circular reasoning is actually hilarious. You appear to have the writing, reasoning, and emotional intelligence of someone well under the age of 18. You don't know how to answer questions honestly and it's clear that you don't read very much -outside of the bible - so you have not developed much of an education.

Have your parents given you permission to cavort with non-believers on the Internet?

[nutrichuckles93]

 

 

Re-Read what you wrote above. Your ignorance of your own circular reasoning is actually hilarious. You appear to have the writing, reasoning, and emotional intelligence of someone well under the age of 18. You don't know how to answer questions honestly and it's clear that you don't read very much -outside of the bible - so you have not developed much of an education.

Have your parents given you permission to cavort with non-believers on the Internet?

I noticed that as well. It is baffling how he doesn't even read what he writes. And hilarious, I agree.

[Margee]

 

Not sure where either one of you picked up these fallacious views on prayer.  Let me show you how it should be done:

 

Hail Margee, full of grace.
Our florduh is with thee.
Blessed art thou among heathens
and blessed is the fruit of thy mind,
Kindness.
Holy Margee, Mother of FSM
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our deconversion.
Amen.

 

See?  That is how you're supposed to pray.  Now both of you say 100 Hail Margees apiece to atone for your heresy.  Fucking idolaters.

 

@Margee

Jeeuss, Prof. Don't get anyne to pray to me. I'm the effin' devil incarnate......

[Travi]

 

Jeeuss, Prof. Don't get anyne to pray to me. I'm the effin' devil incarnate......

Hence why we pray dear @Margee

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

Jeeuss, Prof. Don't get anyne to pray to me. I'm the effin' devil incarnate......

[Margee]

 

How old do I appear to be? Stranger

Stranger, you are as brainwashed as these dear children. Same thing. Different religion. And you know what Stranger? We were all once brainwashed too until the veil came off our eyes. You become 'grown up' once you stop believeing everything that the world tells you and you maturly question things.. You are as a little child being led by a foolish, tribal religion.

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

I would like him to come up with some evidence from outside the bible to prove that it is real. I mean we can read Alice in Wonderland land all day long. We can quote it and preach it as scripture if we wanted to. Preach how Alice is a saviour and the queen of hearts is a devil. Etc etc etc. We could do that easily. We could even make up a whole religion based around the story of Alice in Wonderland. 

 

But if we look for the rabbit whole we won't find it

 

If we look for evidence of the disappearing Cheshire cat we won't find it.

 

We will never find evidence that Wonderland exists or that Alice walked this earth.

 

@Stranger

 

That's the problem with the bible bud. When archeologist tried to use it as a guide to find evidence of the exploits found in the bible it fails. When places mentioned are cross referenced with periods of time missing we find whole cities didn't exist yet. We find no evidence at all of anything remotely close to what the bible portrays from genesis until isreal formed as a nation. It can not be verified. Even the parts of the bible that should be able to be verified and have evidence fail miserably. I'm sorry bud but I can't put my faith in a failed book any longer. 

 

DB

[Stranger]

 

 

Re-Read what you wrote above. Your ignorance of your own circular reasoning is actually hilarious. You appear to have the writing, reasoning, and emotional intelligence of someone well under the age of 18. You don't know how to answer questions honestly and it's clear that you don't read very much -outside of the bible - so you have not developed much of an education.

Have your parents given you permission to cavort with non-believers on the Internet?

 

You didn't say how young you think I am.    And, since we are discussing age...how 'old' are you?

 

Stranger

[Stranger]

 

Stranger, you are as brainwashed as these dear children. Same thing. Different religion. And you know what Stranger? We were all once brainwashed too until the veil came off our eyes. You become 'grown up' once you stop believeing everything that the world tells you and you maturly question things.. You are as a little child being led by a foolish, tribal religion.

 

 

 

Well, what brought the veil off your eyes?

 

Stranger

 

 

[Stranger]

 

I would like him to come up with some evidence from outside the bible to prove that it is real. I mean we can read Alice in Wonderland land all day long. We can quote it and preach it as scripture if we wanted to. Preach how Alice is a saviour and the queen of hearts is a devil. Etc etc etc. We could do that easily. We could even make up a whole religion based around the story of Alice in Wonderland. 

 

But if we look for the rabbit whole we won't find it

 

If we look for evidence of the disappearing Cheshire cat we won't find it.

 

We will never find evidence that Wonderland exists or that Alice walked this earth.

 

@Stranger

 

That's the problem with the bible bud. When archeologist tried to use it as a guide to find evidence of the exploits found in the bible it fails. When places mentioned are cross referenced with periods of time missing we find whole cities didn't exist yet. We find no evidence at all of anything remotely close to what the bible portrays from exodus until isreal formed as a nation. It can not be verified. Even the parts of the bible that should be able to be verified and have evidence fail miserably. I'm sorry bud but I can't put my faith in a failed book any longer. 

 

DB

 

Go ahead.  Make up a religion that others will follow.   I dare you.   Let me know how it goes.   

 

Stranger

[readyforchange]

 

 

No, I am not a Mormon.  I am Christian.

 

The 2nd Person of the Trinity, God the Son, took on a body.   Before the Son took on a body, God was Spirit only.  But, though Spirit, He still was a Person and with shape. (John 5:37)  That shape was the very shape of the Man Jesus Christ.  (Heb. 1:3)  God has a body.  Jesus Christ.  

 

Stranger

 

Stranger, you mentioned that before the Son took on a body, God was Spirit only.  How do you interpret instances where the authors of the Torah use anthropomorphic terms in describing God?  For instance, in Genesis 3:8, God "walks" in the garden of Eden.  Or in Genesis 32:22-32, God, appearing as a man, "wrestles" with Jacob.  In Genesis 32:30, Jacob/Israel calls the location Peniel because he had seen God "face to face". 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

 

 

Go ahead.  Make up a religion that others will follow.   I dare you.   Let me know how it goes.   

 

Stranger

I don't have to its already been done. Look at the Mormon church. Completely made up in the past 100 years and is thriving.

 

In many ways the story from Joseph Smith reminds me a lot of the Jesus story. It was only revealed to him. And only his wife and his most trusted friends saw it. Other than that there was no proof of these gold tablets. Just like there is no real proof that Jesus died on a cross. And there is definitely not any proof if he did exist that he was God's son. 

 

@Stranger I challenge you to find proof of the exodus from egypt. 2 million people in the desert. Many camps near and in many different cities. Look at the studies archeologists have done concerning artifacts found while following God's exodus.

 

 

DB

[readyforchange]

 

 

The koran simply took truths from the Bible and perverted them.   So, of course I reject all it says.  The claim that Christianity  did the same with the Old Testament is not true.  Jesus Christ and the New Testament are a fulfillment of the Old Testament.    Yes,, I reject all other religions and their writings.   

 

 

 

 

Stranger, I understand there are Muslims who believe that John 16:7-15 is Jesus speaking about sending Mohammed to the world.  In the context of John, I think this is a reference to the holy spirit.  But in considering your responses about immediate and later fulfillment of prophecy in relation to Isaiah 7:14, how can you be certain that there was not a hidden message or double-fulfillment for John 16:7-15?

 

⁷ Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Advocate^[a] will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. ⁸ And when he comes, he will prove the world wrong about^[b] sin and righteousness and judgment: ⁹ about sin, because they do not believe in me; ¹⁰ about righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will see me no longer; ¹¹ about judgment, because the ruler of this world has been condemned. ¹² “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. ¹³ When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. ¹⁴ He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. ¹⁵ All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

[readyforchange]

 

I don't have to its already been done. Look at the Mormon church. Completely made up in the past 100 years and is thriving.

 

In many ways the story from Joseph Smith reminds me a lot of the Jesus story. It was only revealed to him. And only his wife and his most trusted friends saw it. Other than that there was no proof of these gold tablets. Just like there is no real proof that Jesus died on a cross. And there is definitely not any proof if he did exist that he was God's son. 

 

DB

 

Sai Baba is another good example.  He has many followers, including temples in several American cities - http://www.yoursaibaba.com/

[Stranger]

 

 

Stranger, you mentioned that before the Son took on a body, God was Spirit only.  How do you interpret instances where the authors of the Torah use anthropomorphic terms in describing God?  For instance, in Genesis 3:8, God "walks" in the garden of Eden.  Or in Genesis 32:22-32, God, appearing as a man, "wrestles" with Jacob.  In Genesis 32:30, Jacob/Israel calls the location Peniel because he had seen God "face to face". 

 

 

 

It was just that.  God appearing as a man or as the angel of the LORD.

 

Stranger

[Stranger]

 

I don't have to its already been done. Look at the Mormon church. Completely made up in the past 100 years and is thriving.

 

In many ways the story from Joseph Smith reminds me a lot of the Jesus story. It was only revealed to him. And only his wife and his most trusted friends saw it. Other than that there was no proof of these gold tablets. Just like there is no real proof that Jesus died on a cross. And there is definitely not any proof if he did exist that he was God's son. 

 

@Stranger I challenge you to find proof of the exodus from egypt. 2 million people in the desert. Many camps near and in many different cities. Look at the studies archeologists have done concerning artifacts found while following God's exodus.

 

 

DB

 

The exodus was miraculous from the start.   I don't need to prove it.   

 

Stranger

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Lol yeh sure if ya wanna turn a blind eye. Come on surely you can agree there should be tons of evidence left behind. Your just a wuss. There is nor evidence and you know it.

 

DB