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Christians: Why would an all-good God base our salvation from Hell on whether or not we believe in a 2,000-year-old supernatural story?

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First of all, God doesn't murder anyone.  Everyones life is His to take when He so chooses.   Why would you say an all-powerful 'god' could find a way to deal with the problem without mass murder.?  What I would call mass killing. 

 

For using that particular "might makes right" argument, you are now prohibited from speaking of objective morality.  If killing is wrong, in an objective morality it is always wrong.  You're just making the usual utterly pathetic excuse that believers employ to explain away the evil of the god they worship.

 

 

God knew that destroying mankind in the flood, except Noah's family, would not eradicate evil in the world.  But evil had accelerated to such a degree that it was, yes, necessary to protect the seed line, culminating in Jesus Christ, and His people.

 

Then your god is an incompetent planner.  Oh, and as none of the other alleged mortal ancestors of Jesus were "sinless," the seed line would be tainted and your precious little "saviour" also infected with that silly "Original Sin" stuff --

 

-- If he ever existed at all, which I very much doubt.  At most, the Jesus of the Gospels was an ordinary rabbi who died and remains dead to this day, with his followers and their acolytes writing a heavily mythologized account of his life many decades later.  I don't believe for one fucking minute that he came back from the dead, or that he has any power at all.

 

 

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If killing is wrong, in an objective morality it is always wrong.

 

But why? Are you saying that objective morality is a constant and is not prone to change?

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But why? Are you saying that objective morality is a constant and is not prone to change?

 

Objective morality would have to be based on an unchanging standard and be universally applicable.

 

I think that objective morality is a nonsensical concept anyway, because morality is a value judgement and therefore subjective at its heart.  It certainly isn't objective if a god can exclude itself from its own rules (e.g. killing despite the "Thou shalt not kill" commandment), or simply declare certain things to be good or bad (e.g. not working on one particular day of the week).  That's just subjectivity with the god's subjective opinion being imposed on everyone else.

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Objective morality would have to be based on an unchanging standard and be universally applicable.

 

I think that objective morality is a nonsensical concept anyway, because morality is a value judgement and therefore subjective at its heart.  It certainly isn't objective if a god can exclude itself from its own rules (e.g. killing despite the "Thou shalt not kill" commandment), or simply declare certain things to be good or bad (e.g. not working on one particular day of the week).  That's just subjectivity with the god's subjective opinion being imposed on everyone else.

 

I agree. I also think that objective morality is nonsense.

 

Why would it have to be based on an unchanging standard for it to be objective? Reality all around us also changes endlessly yet that doesn't make it any less objective.

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What proof do you have that prayer is how you know god's will? How do you know the difference between what "god is saying" and whatever else may be going on in your mind at the time?

 

Frankly, it's that kind of stuff that made me realize god's voice was simply whatever I wanted to hear going on inside my head.

 

No proof that would satisfy you.  It is the way we are instructed in the Bible.  We pray about whatever it is and God will hear us.   He who spoke the universe into existence is capeable of making Himself understood.  Sometimes its a matter of waiting and seeing what God will do what you prayed over.   

 

Stranger

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For using that particular "might makes right" argument, you are now prohibited from speaking of objective morality.  If killing is wrong, in an objective morality it is always wrong.  You're just making the usual utterly pathetic excuse that believers employ to explain away the evil of the god they worship.

 

 

Then your god is an incompetent planner.  Oh, and as none of the other alleged mortal ancestors of Jesus were "sinless," the seed line would be tainted and your precious little "saviour" also infected with that silly "Original Sin" stuff --

 

-- If he ever existed at all, which I very much doubt.  At most, the Jesus of the Gospels was an ordinary rabbi who died and remains dead to this day, with his followers and their acolytes writing a heavily mythologized account of his life many decades later.  I don't believe for one fucking minute that he came back from the dead, or that he has any power at all.

 

 

  

I didn't say 'might makes right'.   I said God is not a murderer because all life is His to take.   What makes it right is that it is from God.

 

Important to remember that Christ came from the seed of the woman, not the man.   

 

Stranger

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No proof that would satisfy you.  It is the way we are instructed in the Bible.  We pray about whatever it is and God will hear us.   He who spoke the universe into existence is capeable of making Himself understood.  Sometimes its a matter of waiting and seeing what God will do what you prayed over.   

 

Stranger

If he is so capable of making himself understood, then it would be clear to everyone he exists because why on earth then would he not desire to make himself obvious.

 

It's all too convenient for the christian to say that god merely makes himself known to few, or that you must wait for him to reveal himself. All to explain away why no god is even there at all.

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If he is so capable of making himself understood, then it would be clear to everyone he exists because why on earth then would he not desire to make himself obvious.

 

It's all too convenient for the christian to say that god merely makes himself known to few, or that you must wait for him to reveal himself. All to explain away why no god is even there at all.

 

I would say this.  God is not interested at this time in making Himself known to the whole world.  He keeps it by faith.  He is a God Who hides Himself from man.   (Is.45:15)

 

And, man does not want God to make Himself known to all at this time.  Because when He does, it will be a day of judgement.  It will be the book of Revelation.   (Rev. 6:16-17)

 

Now, we are still in the day of Grace.    God has revealed Himself in Christ and the Bible.   But is only known by faith.

 

Stranger

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Arguments for God are fallacious or unsound. Evidence disintegrates upon examination. The lifestyle sucks unless you are at the top of the pyramid. Even the music sucks - at least, in the last century.

 

So why should we buy what you're selling? Give one reason.

 

I've been asking this question for the last 20 years. No one comes up with any answer that is not viciously question begging.

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The muslim tries to link himself to the Christian relilgion for validity.

 

Christianity did the same thing with Judaism.

 

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1.)  No, I would rather not go through the whole resurrection story.   

 

2.)  Prayer first of all, is more than just trying to get something from God.   It is also a fellowship with God.  A communication.   As far as getting things changed for us, God wants us to pray.  If I need a job, God wants me to pray.  If someone I know has cancer, God wants me to pray.  He wants me to pray to Him so that when He does give that job, or heal that cancer, then I giver Him the glory for it.  Prayer is a way of knowing God's will.  

 

3.)  Where did I ever give you the impression I am good?   I am not good.  I am however saved.   Well, If you don't believe the Bibles way of salvation, what else do you think I can say?  

 

4.)  Because God is doing what is the best for His people, in their salvation, and in what He wants in them. Something He has the power to do and can do.    I don't follow your illustration.

 

Stranger

 

 

 

1. I legitimately want to know why? Aren't you always supposed to have an answer for the hope that you have? 1 Peter 3:15? If the stories don't add up, what really happened?

 

2. Why does he never answer back? Why does he seem to prefer this silent, one-sided communication when he used to be audible?

 

3. I meant you come across as being nonchalant about our eternal hell because "you're good" with regard to being safe in heaven. Sorry for confusion. Does it bother you?

 

4. I mean....how does it make sense that the lord would "accept himself" as a sacrifice "to himself" to make the people he created acceptable again in his eyes when he did it in the first place? Why create a hell and send people there with no hope of being saved?

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God is not interested at this time in making Himself known to the whole world.  He keeps it by faith. 

 

How do you know this? I thought we would find him if we seek him and "knock"?

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I agree. I also think that objective morality is nonsense.

 

Why would it have to be based on an unchanging standard for it to be objective? Reality all around us also changes endlessly yet that doesn't make it any less objective.

 

Interesting question.  I would say that a standard that changes in response to external conditions could still be a stable, consistently-applied standard but would still have an element of subjectivity because it is subject to change.  Perhaps we need to come up with a third category, or pull apart the whole morality concept and see if we can get rid of terms like "subjective" and "objective" altogether.

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I didn't say 'might makes right'.   I said God is not a murderer because all life is His to take.   What makes it right is that it is from God.

 

Quit it with the weasel words.  If killing is wrong, it is wrong when your god does it.  "...all life is His to take" is an absolutely disgusting, abhorrent philosophy, and you should be deeply ashamed of yourself for using that excuse.

 

Important to remember that Christ came from the seed of the woman, not the man.

 

Ah, so you're also a misogynist?

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I don't believe so.  The distinction of persons in (Acts 10: 34) is the result of the change from salvation being found only in Israel, to salvation now to every nation.   And so 'everyone that feareth God and worketh righteousness is accepted with him.'  

 

Just as there is no respect of persons by God concerning judgement.  (Rom.2:11)  Both Jew and Gentile.  The Jew who had the law will be judged by the law and found wanting.  And the Gentiles who have not the law, will be judged by natural law which God says everyone has. (2:14-15)

 

My belief that God knows those who are His doesn't make Him a respecter of persons.  That is His side.  On our side, the offer is given for salvation.  It is to all.  And any who believe and come to Christ will be saved.   And those who don't, won't.

 

Stranger

The offer of salvation must be accepted by faith, which you stated earlier was given by god to some and not to others.  Salvation cannot be offered to all, if god has already predestined those who will receive (by giving them the faith he needs them to have in order to receive it).  Thus, god is playing favorites from the very beginning, choosing who will be saved and who will not, both jew and gentile and every nation.  god is a respecter of persons and your own argument demonstrates that.  god is a liar; and you still trust him.  What does that say about you?

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I would say this.  God is not interested at this time in making Himself known to the whole world.  He keeps it by faith.  He is a God Who hides Himself from man.   (Is.45:15)

 

And, man does not want God to make Himself known to all at this time.  Because when He does, it will be a day of judgement.  It will be the book of Revelation.   (Rev. 6:16-17)

 

Now, we are still in the day of Grace.    God has revealed Himself in Christ and the Bible.   But is only known by faith.

 

Stranger

 

Imagine how many more people could be saved if he made himself to known to everyone before the day of judgment, by offering those who are unable to rely on faith the evidence that we need. I guarantee that if he offered to us all of the evidence we need, that the vast majority of, if not all of, the members of ex-Christian.net would believe again. We might not willingly bow down to him right away, but eventually we would develop Stockholm syndrome and go back to being Christians again. The speed at which such a thing occurred would vary.

 

It seems like he only makes himself known to the gullible (but not in any detectable way, it's just a feeling of being certain about something, which can be wrong, and it gives believers the illusion of having special knowledge), but to the critical thinkers out there, he simply chooses to remain hidden from them and roasts them merely for not being gullible enough. Once again, how do you know that Yahweh hasn't always been the devil all along? What if you are deceived by this "God" you worship and do not know it?

 

 

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Yet this does not stop the believer from declaring the Gospel of Jesus Christ.   As we leave the result to the Holy Spirit.  We declare Him and let the chips fall.

 

Stranger

 

 

 

And here we have the most dishonest position a person could take. Is confront with evidence showing the bible to be wrong, and instead of refuting it with evidence Stranger simply says he will believe regardless.... because holy spooks and all.

 

Stranger, either your God doesn't exist, or he is so deceptive that he has made all evidence when considered with an open honest mind to lead away from a conclusion from God thus duping everyone.

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First of all, God doesn't murder anyone.  Everyones life is His to take when He so chooses.   Why would you say an all-powerful 'god' could find a way to deal with the problem without mass murder.?  What I would call mass killing.

 

God doesn't murder or kill. Only people kill and murder. God is in your imagination.

 

God knew that destroying mankind in the flood, except Noah's family, would not eradicate evil in the world.  But evil had accelerated to such a degree that it was, yes, necessary to protect the seed line, culminating in Jesus Christ, and His people.

 

The flood never happened in reality, but is that the only way a supposed all powerful being could protect the seed line? With a flood? Bullshit alert. I think an all-knowing and all-powerful being would have some better magic up his sleeve. Floods are the kind of simple BS a man would think up.

 

Well, I disagree that a benevolent God would find another solution.  God is benevolent, but He is not just benevolent.

 He is also holy and righteous.

 

That holy and righteous baby-killin. Halle-baby-killing-lujah, Lord!

 

  He is love and merciful, but there comes an end to it.  And concerning the world in Noahs day that end had come.  I assume you would use these same arguments against the crucifixion of Christ.

 

Does God want you to blindly adhere to stupid stuff or does God want you to use your thought processes? When someone tells you the muffler bearing on your car need to be replaced do you question it or just have faith in the mechanic! Did God tell you to listen to stupid shit that other church people tell you? Or does God want you to question things? Think about things. Do you ever question the bible? Why or why not? How do you know the bible is correct? Has a fellow parishioner given you a word from God that you thought was total BS? If so, why was it BS? If Jesus really exists then why dont any of us believe in him anymore? Why doesn't his magic enthrall us? Why do YOU have to defend God? Is he too busy hiding? Unless of course God is just part of your imagination, then you would feel like defending him, I suppose. 

 

Christianity is the mental prison of "God is always right." I'm glad to be free of it.

 

Yes, I agree that death and killing was part of God's plan.

 

Doesn't that seem wrong to you? 

 

Stranger

 

 

 

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They now had to have faith in the promise of the Seed or the Saviour to come.  That promise was first given in (Gen.3:15)."...between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."  That seed would be the Saviour to come, Jesus Christ. Adam showed he believed that in (3:20) when he called his wife "Eve, because she was the mother of all living."   Eve showed she believed that when Seth was born when she said, (Gen.4:25), "...For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew."    Even though Adam and Eve were in the unique position of knowing God before, they now were lost.  And they must come God's way to get back.  

 

The main reason it is by faith is because that is the way God has made it.   And so it works no other way.   And why God made it that way is so that He received the glory instead of man.   It would be faith in God's work, not self reliance in mans work.  (1Cor. 1:26-31).

 

So, salvation in the Bible always points to faith in the Seed, the Sacrifice, Jesus Christ, the way God has chosen.

 

Stranger

     So they, Adam and Eve, had to believe that one of their offspring would be a savior?  God couldn't just tell them that one of their offspring would be a savior?  And, once they believed in this they were saved?  And they couldn't learn of salvation directly from god?  So they learned of salvation in some other way or not at all?

 

     So I have to believe that one of my offspring will be a savior in order for me to gain salvation?  I don't have any offspring.  But since I only have to believe that one of my offspring will be a savior I'm not entirely sure if that is a problem or not.

 

     I don't know if these beliefs make sense.  Surely, there must be something more to it?

 

         mwc

 

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This is objectively wrong. For a full discussion, you can see The Bible Made Impossible by believer(!) Christian Smith. Short version: Even if we grant the assumption that the Bible is God's perfect revelation, the fact that Christians in different groups, times and places interpret its meaning so wildly differently mean that in practice it is not perfect or even effective communication.

 

If every sincere Christian who sought to get communication from God all agreed, then that would be strong evidence to suggest that some kind of being was out there, communicating, and was able to make itself understood. But in practice, you can have two guys in the same conference of the same sect of Christianity, both completely sincere in their beliefs and in seeking to understand God--like John Piper and Greg Boyd--and have them come to completely different answers about what God is saying.

 

That doesn't match with any kind of reasonable definition of "capable of making himself understood."

 

So while I'm mostly agnostic, not claiming to know about anything "beyond" or even much caring, one thing I say with confidence: if there is/are any god/s, she/he/it/they are unwilling or unable to communicate with humans in a clear and consistent way. Because if they could and wanted to, we'd know it, because the message would be consistently received.

 

Now, Stranger, I know your answer to this because I have amazing supernatural revelation: you will say "god is capable of making himself understood but only does it for who he chooses." And "who he chooses" will, when we poke at it, turn out to be "Stranger and all the people who happen to completely agree with Stranger."

 

That answer won't satisfy anybody here because it's so obviously contrived and arbitrary. ANYBODY can make a similar argument, and we can't really disprove any of them. A Buddhist, a Muslim, a Hindu could all say that god is able to communicate clearly, and has communicated clearly to them and anybody who agrees with them--and everybody else is wrong or lying. And I can say that the true god is Boobaloo the Moderately Cranky, and she has revealed her truth to me clearly, and anybody who disagrees she has chosen to conceal it from. But you aren't going to find that convincing, and neither will anybody else.

 

So what you've got there is not an argument and not evidence. It's just a convenient rationalization of what your believe. And you want to keep believing it because it feels good to think that you're one of the special ones who's been let in on the Real Truth. That kind of belief gives you certainty and a feeling of connection and importance, so it's an easy way to load up on dopamine. So as long as those feelings continue, you'll keep deploying rationailzations to keep yourself from seeing that it's not convincing or even particularly sensible. 

 

(and maybe someday, you, like us, will finally have enough accumulated expereinces that fly in the face of those rationalizations that they will break. and honestly, if that happens, it will suck, for a while. and then it will open up a whole better way of being. and then you can come here and talk to people who've also been through it and will get it. My contribution to that is just to provide you an experience of "I told a bunch of ex-christians that god could communicate clearly, and they were very unimpressed. And some of them had clearly already thought about it a lot more than I have. And my answers didn't convince any of them." None of that will change your mind, but as a piece of a larger thing, they might contribute.)

 

Very well put. I wish I could give it more than one like.

 

I don't think I've seen you around here before, thereisnoperfect, so here's a belated welcome. I look forward to seeing more of your input in the future.

 

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@Stranger @OrdinaryClay I just want both of you to know that you scare the living shit out of me, and I would not want people like you anywhere near my children or the children of others.  First, you both willingly worship and believe in an entity that is more evil than anything I've ever read about in any book, and you are perfectly okay with that.  Secondly, you don't believe in using logic to solve normal everyday problems which makes you both very dangerous.  Third, you've attempted to rebut nearly every sane, rational, and logical argument that has been tossed your way which tells me that neither one of you are thinking clearly anymore which, once again, also makes you very dangerous.  Fourth, you've lost the ability to know the real differences between good and evil which makes you a threat to yourselves and others.  At this point, you are literally not much different from the jihadists who blow themselves up and kill innocent women, men, and children in the name of Allah (you have more in common than you probably realize.)  Finally, you not only believe in stories like Noah's ark which literally involves bizarre things like two penguins making an impossible journey from Antarctica all the way to the Middle East to get on a big boat in the desert that was built by a "600 year old man" because your "loving God" decided to brutally annihilate every last living thing on the planet, but you also encourage others to do the same which makes you a threat to societal progress in general.

 

But you know what?  I still have a deep hope that one day you'll see the light.  You see, at one time I was just like you, and that fact alone gives me hope.  I have to believe that people like you can come back to reality because the future of civilized society, the government, and the entire planet hangs on it.  This might not resonate with you right now, but one day it is very possible that you'll look back at these debates and the people you're currently debating with a sense of fondness and gratitude.  You know why?  It will be because you will have come to the realization that these good people here on ex-Christian actually cared enough about the both of you to take time out of their regular lives to try to help you get back on the right path.  You may not see it now, but believe it or not, one day you just might, and for the sake of yourselves and your close friends and families, I sincerely hope that both of you do.

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So while I'm mostly agnostic, not claiming to know about anything "beyond" or even much caring, one thing I say with confidence: if there is/are any god/s, she/he/it/they are unwilling or unable to communicate with humans in a clear and consistent way. Because if they could and wanted to, we'd know it, because the message would be consistently received.

 

 

This concept alone is enough to make me reject Christianity and all theistic belief systems.

 

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1.)  I believe the Bibel is inerrant (without error) in the original autographs.   Of course we have no original autographs today.  We have copies.  But, as much as the copies record the original, they too are inerrant.  

 

Your typo made me think of how Bible rhymes with libel. Hmmmm..... ;)

 

Anyway, are you implying that the Bible we have today doesn't fully "record the original" and therefore is not really inerrant?

 

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1.)  No, I would rather not go through the whole resurrection story.   

 

You would rather not go through the most important story in your religion? Wow. 

 

Well, ignoring the contradictory resurrection accounts is one of the ways to avoid questioning your blind faith.

 

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