Right & wrong

[whitehorse]

What's the best way of determining right and wrong without the good and evil religious mentality. If I throw out all concepts of good and evil, what do I replace them with when forming moral models?

 

 

 

 

[★ Citsonga ★]

Evaluate the effects. As long as you're not harming anyone, do whatever you want.

[sdelsolray]

 

What's the best way of determining right and wrong without the good and evil religious mentality. If I throw out all concepts of good and evil, what do I replace them with when forming moral models?

 

Historically, religions have adopted the morals and ethics of the societies and cultures in which the religions arose, at least that is what the evidence reveals.  Religions did not create the ethics or morals despite bald claims otherwise from many religions' believers.  That being said, many religions have incorporated those ethics and morals within the overall dogma of those religions and, it can take some work to extract them from that dogma.

 

Right and wrong, good and evil, moral and immoral and ethical and unethical are words we use to have conversations about the dualistic nature of the inquiry.  Each pair has significant overlap with the other pairs.  Often they mean the same thing.

 

I suspect you already have good ways of determining right and wrong in your own life.

 

[Rounin]

I agree with sdelsolray that you probably already have a way, even if only in the sense of "I know it when I see it".

Perhaps reading up on different moral philosophies and seeing what you think of them can be of help to you.

Personally, I found rational egoism to be enlightening. A former neighbour of mine is a utilitarian. And there are many, many others.

[whitehorse]

 

I agree with sdelsolray that you probably already have a way, even if only in the sense of "I know it when I see it".

Perhaps reading up on different moral philosophies and seeing what you think of them can be of help to you.

Personally, I found rational egoism to be enlightening. A former neighbour of mine is a utilitarian. And there are many, many others.

Ok.

[ag_NO_stic]

 

What's the best way of determining right and wrong without the good and evil religious mentality. If I throw out all concepts of good and evil, what do I replace them with when forming moral models?

 

 

 

 

 

The short answer: Social conditioning.

 

The long answer: What everyone else is telling you is 100% true. When a Christian tells you that you need God for a moral compass, all you need ask is "than why are there so many different "moral compasses?" It's all social. One example you can see of this in Western history is how each generation has dealt with the issue of racism. Our great grandparents would have used God's "moral compass" as evidence that we should keep slaves, not mix races, or that white people were inherently superior to people of color. Now, many Christians will use the same exact moral compass to back up treating everyone fairly and equally, no slavery, with respect and even celebration of a mixed family. There is a reason that people say, "I mean I've told a lie or two, but I'm no murderer" in the United States, because that is one of the worst transgressions determined by the laws in the US.

 

Another example: Christians in the US might look down upon any homosexual acts as "going against the morality that God has written on our hearts." However (not even considering how many homosexuals there are who don't have that morality written on their own hearts), there is an tribe/ethnic group in Papua New Guinea (The Etoro/Edolo tribe) that I studied in my cultural psychology class. A controversial fact about them is that they believe that young boys must consume the semen of older men daily until they are adolescents to strong properly and achieve masculinity, because they believe their man juice has the highest concentration of life.

 

The question to ask yourself is why so many different cultures and social groups have different "moral codes" and the answer is that it's all socially learned. You learn "morality" from your parents, community, and culture and transmit these to your children. Study what we know about feral children who have no concept of morality because they haven't been taught it socially. Study countries not tied with any religion and look at their lower crime rates, lower pregnancy rates, etc. No god....still "morality."

[SherpaJones]

Right and wrong are values that are deeply entrenched in religion.  I'm of the personal conviction that "right" and "wrong" or "good and evil", as descriptive qualifiers, don't have any value when it comes to more natural human interaction.  As said before, we simply evaluate our actions and their outcomes.  If something you did causes harm, learn from that.  Calling it "bad" or "wrong" or "evil" invites moralistic judgment that can pile on unnecessary shame and guilt, and that is the domain of religion.  Instead, allow yourself to feel sad, hurt, remorseful, regretful, uncomfortable, etc.  Those feelings are more true to what has actually happened.  Then identify concretely how what you did has effected other people.  Say things like "I'm sad that I did that; the other person needs respect."  Bring the other person's humanity into focus by attempting to understand their inner life, and how your actions might have interfered with their happiness and well being.  And careful not to say things like "I didn't respect them, they didn't respect me."  Respect is difficult to observe, much like hunger.  I can say I am hungry or I am full.  If someone hasn't given me food I can't say they make me hungry, now that would be silly.  I'm hungry because I need food.  Respect, as an example of many, many things we need as humans, is a vacancy to be filled, and in any given moment, actions and words can fill it.  But a person's character or attitude, or any sort of vague or general demand or request, such as "I want you to respect me," cannot fill it, and such requests are often impossible to fill because they cannot be concretely demonstrated or observed.

 

A few other pointers;

Observe the world around you as people making choices as best as they can to fill what they need.  See that a lot of people and even yourself are stuck in patterns of thinking that lead to unnecessary conflict, and feel compassion for them and yourself.  A lot of what we do actually gets in the way of getting what we want, because we create enemies that aren't there.  We do this by judging, evaluating, criticizing or blaming ourselves or others for things that happen that we don't like.  When addressing a problem, be as objective as you can.  Translate "you are always mean to me!" into, "today when you came home and spoke to me that way, I felt very upset and detached."  

 

Don't ever take responsibility for another person's feelings, or give them responsibility for yours.  That is a dangerous trap.  Our feelings are generated by the state of our life.  Much like knowing that hunger is generated by our need for food, knowing how your feelings connect to your life will help you identify what you need and to help other people see that.  When they see that how you feel is about your life and not theirs, they may become eager to help you.  "I felt upset and detached because I need understanding and fairness."

 

Don't ever think that only one person can get you what you need, or that you are the only person who can get someone else what they need.  That is also a trap.  The things we need in life can be met by various means and a variety of people.  We often have strong preferences of who will help us and who we want to help, and others might have that of us.  But if we trap ourselves into thinking I or They are the only one, it becomes a desperate situation where the person giving often feels resentment.  The only person in the world who can truly get you what you need is you.  And once you figure that out, there are about 7 billion other people who could be elated to help you, knowing that you don't rely on them but they are free to give.  "It would help me get the understanding and fairness I need if I could really hear what is real to you right now.  Can you tell me how you feel and what you need in a way that could help me to understand you better?"

 

Don't ever think that saying no to someone, or hearing no from them, is unacceptable.  Don't ever think that making demands is the only way to get what you want.  People respond resentfully to demands, and you don't want people helping you that way.  Always speak and hear requests, placing the exchange in the context of the last 3 points.  If someone says no (even you), then hear them saying that to do what was requested would get in the way of filling what they need.  "No, I don't want to talk about it, I just want you to do what I told you to do and quit complaining!"  "I'm not willing to do as you have asked, because it is difficult for me right now.  I'm guessing that you may be feeling impatient and want some help.  I want to help you but only if I can see how that really matters to you, and to find a way we can work together that makes us both feeling satisfied and connected."

 

If you can integrate these 4 points into a set of values, but more than that, an empathic, compassionate consciousness of the complexity of everyone's life and living states, moment to moment, then the words you speak won't matter so much because the intent of your care will come through them.  There are some ways of speaking that I would discourage, but that is too much to cover here in what I started out as a simple response.  But I would be happy to carry on a discussion if anyone is interested in what I said.  This is my take on the teachings of Nonviolent Communication as developed by Dr. Marshall Rosenberg, link to a video below.