False Prophetic Claims

[Joshpantera]

Here's link to endless false claims in the bible, just in case any one may be thinking that any of it has actually come true or was foretold:  http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html

 

"I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations." But the Davidic line of Kings ended with Zedekiah; there were none during the Babylonian captivity, and there are none today. 89:3-4, 34-37

 

The King James Version mistranslates the Hebrew word "almah", which means "young woman" as "virgin". (The Hebrew word, "bethulah", means "virgin".) In addition, the young woman referred to in this verse was living at the time of the prophecy. And Jesus, of course, was called Jesus -- and is not called Emmanuel in any verse in the New Testament. 7:14

 

These verses falsely predict that Babylon will never again be inhabited. 13:19-20

 

This verse prophesies that Damascus will be completely destroyed and no longer be inhabited. Yet Damascus has never been completely destroyed and is one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities. 17:1

 

Ezekiel makes another false prophecy: that Egypt would be uninhabited by humans or animals for forty years after being destroyed by Nebuchadrezzar. But there was never a time when Egypt was uninhabited. Humans and animals have lived there continuously since Ezekiel's prophecy. 29:10-11

 

1.  

2. Daniel
   
   "I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it." (If Daniel couldn't understand his visions, then how could anyone else?) This is the one true prophecy in the book of Daniel: "none understood it." 8:27

 

1. Revelation
   
    

2. John believed that the things that he wrote about would happen soon, within his own lifetime. After nearly 2000 years, believers still believe that "the time is at hand" and that the events described in Revelation will "shortly come to pass." 1:1, 3

    

3. "Every eye shall see him," including those who executed him. Everyone will "wail because of him." But millions have lived and died without ever seeing him coming "with clouds." 1:7

    

4. John quotes Jesus (1900 years ago) as saying, "Behold, I come quickly." 3:11, 22:7, 12, 20

    

5. "And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth...." To John, the stars are just little lights a few miles away that can easily fall to the earth. 6:13

    

6. "And the name of the star is called Wormwood."
   Some believers say that the 1986 nuclear disaster at Chernobyl was the fulfillment of the third trumpet in 8:10-11. 8:10-11

    

7. "And there was no more sea."
   For an old sailor like me, this verse, if it were true, would be one of the saddest verses in the Bible.21:1

    

8. "Things which must shortly be done" 22:6 
9. "Behold, I come quickly." 22:7, 12, 20

 

[TABA]

Thanks for digging this up and sharing.  You've earned your keep as a valuable ex-christian for another day.  You've also earned a beer.  I will drink it for you now.

[Joshpantera]

It may do some people good to scour over the lists in the link, working their way through the whole bible, talking note of how many times these prophecies are complete bunk. And then consider how in the world we arrive at modern Israel as fulfilled prophecy starting from a foundation in that old bunk, which was never correct to begin with. Simply put, nothing happening today was prophecied in any substantial way by ancient writers writing about their own contemporary time and place. That's the claim. And I'll be so bold as to declare that no one, christian or otherwise can refute the claim....

[rjn]

That part about the line of David could of course be interpreted as referring to Jesus, and I bet this is the route Christians tend to take.

[LogicalFallacy]

Ezekiel 26 King James Version (KJV)

1 And it came to pass in the eleventh year, in the first day of the month, that the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

...

⁷ For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.

...

¹⁹ For thus saith the Lord God; When I shall make thee a desolate city, like the cities that are not inhabited; when I shall bring up the deep upon thee, and great waters shall cover thee;

²⁰ When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;

²¹ I will make thee a terror, and thou shalt be no more: though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord God.

 

So basically this prophesy states that Tyre would be completely destroyed by Nebuchadrezzar, that it would never be rebuilt and inhabited, and that people would look for, but never find Tyre.

 

1) Nebuchadrezzar didn't actually destroy Tyre - the Tyrians surrendered and were allowed to remain so long as they gave allegiance to Nebuchadrezzar which they did. It was not until Alexander the Great came that he completely razed the city. Point this out to the Christians and they don't care - the prophesy said destroyed, they don't care it said Nebuchadrezzar would do the destroying.

2) The city has been mostly continually inhabited since its founding and today is the forth largest city in Lebanon. Christians say "but not the ancient city". Well no, the a city was destroyed, and they build a new one on top, still inhabiting the same city. There was a 250 year period after Alexander that it was not inhabited until a Roman General rebuilt Tyre. Tyre has been destroyed and rebuilt many many times in its history. A bit like Jerusalem, Jericho, Rome etc

3) We have sought the city and have found it. We can point the other ancient ruins, visit the ancient city.

 

Most Christians attempt to place Ezekiel at 587 BCE in order for it to be a prophesy for Nebuchadrezzar at 585 BCE. The timing is close and I wonder if the writer was not writing after Nebuchadrezzar  came and took the Israelites into captivity? A retrospective warning if you will - bah I told you this would happen cause I received a vision on X date that I am telling you after Tyre has been destroyed.

 

 

[mwc]

     They're all false claims.  There is no such thing as *true* prophetic claims.

 

     Unless we're counting things like predicting the obvious, lucky guesses or after the fact claims and the like then the world is chock full of prophets.

 

          mwc

 

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

     They're all false claims.  There is no such thing as *true* prophetic claims.

 

     Unless we're counting things like predicting the obvious, lucky guesses or after the fact claims and the like then the world is chock full of prophets.

 

          mwc

 

 

Very true. That makes me think of an odd discussion I once had online with a Christian, though. He was arguing that calling something "false" implies that there has to be a "true" version. I don't remember exactly how we got to that point, but it was based on a reference to "false Christ," and he was asserting that there must be a "true Christ" for there to be any "false Christ." I couldn't get over how serious the guy was. That's as downright stupid as saying that the false Santa Claus at the shopping mall proves that there's a real Santa Claus.

 

[LogicalFallacy]

 

Most Christians attempt to place Ezekiel at 587 BCE in order for it to be a prophesy for Nebuchadrezzar at 585 BCE. The timing is close and I wonder if the writer was not writing after Nebuchadrezzar  came and took the Israelites into captivity? A retrospective warning if you will - bah I told you this would happen cause I received a vision on X date that I am telling you after Tyre has been destroyed.

 

Further research shows that Ezekiel was a captive at the time Nebuchadnezzar was assaulting the Mid East. In my opinion, assuming the 'prophesy' was not written after the fact, and we can assume this to be true because he got things wrong in it, then it can be reasonably assumed that the writer at least knew of the potential for Nebuchadnezzar to attack Tyre. The  rest of the prediction is not far off.

 

I would have to say, of all the biblical prophesies this is the hardest to counter. I would advise not going up against someone proving this prophesy without having studied Tyre's history and understanding what Ezekiel is predicting.

 

Remember the Christian does apply much slight of hand. The key thing to nail down in any conversation with a Christian is whether they accept the prophesy would be fulfilled by Nebuchadnezzar (Per the bible) If they are informed they will say no, because in order for them to say the prophesy was fulfilled they need Alexander the Great razing the city 300 years later. If they do mention this, ask why is Nebuchadnezzar, who never destroyed the city, mentioned by name, but Alexander the great was not? Was it perhaps because the writer was predicting things for his time with people he knew about?

 

If I was allowed I'd post a conversation between a Christian on youtube and myself debating this. I think I've done poorly because of not being prepared enough and researching on the go. This is a major prophesy for Christians, thus they are well researched in apologetic. You need to research those same apologetic to counter the claim.

 

Has anyone else had much experience with this Tyre prophesy?

 

PS: mentioning the rest of Ezekiel prophesies that he clearly got wrong does nothing to dissuade the Christian of the argument for the Tyre prophesy.  

[rerics]

 

That part about the line of David could of course be interpreted as referring to Jesus, and I bet this is the route Christians tend to take.

 

I look at it this way--Jews believed a messiah would be descended from David, so when someone came along that was sufficiently messiah-like in their minds, they contrive a biography after the fact that shows that lineage. Voila, prophesy fulfilled. Never mind that a man fathered by God shouldn't have any human paternal lineage to speak of.

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

 

I look at it this way--Jews believed a messiah would be descended from David, so when someone came along that was sufficiently messiah-like in their minds, they contrive a biography after the fact that shows that lineage. Voila, prophesy fulfilled. Never mind that a man fathered by God shouldn't have any human paternal lineage to speak of.

 

Exactly! Also, the two gospels that report Jesus' lineage through Joseph (Matthew and Luke) are highly contradictory, which shows that the authors were just throwing things together.

 

[Joshpantera]

Those were the two things that stood out at me when I reread the bible after years of non belief. First, the contradictions in Genesis and secondly, the contradiction in Matthew. A seven day creation where days are going by without the existence of the sun, moon or stars. And a lineage from David to Joseph where Jesus was not Joseph's son. Two major contradictions at the beginning of both the old and new testaments. And I saw right away the sand foundations that judeo-christianity has been built upon. 

[Wertbag]

Isn't the biggest problem that we don't know who, when or why the various books of the bible were written?  How do you tell the difference between reported news and future predictions if you don't know for sure when it starts?

I don't believe any of the supposed prophets actually stated they were?

There is also the risk of forced prophesies, in that the prophet tells his followers what his claim is, then you have hundreds of people actively working to make it come true.

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

Isn't the biggest problem that we don't know who, when or why the various books of the bible were written?  How do you tell the difference between reported news and future predictions if you don't know for sure when it starts?

 

While we don't really know who the writers were and there's plenty of debate over issues surrounding the writings, some things are clear simply from reading what is said. The Gospel writers were notorious for taking Old Testament quotes completely out of context when claiming that things were fulfilled prophecy.

 

For example, Matthew 2:15 claims that Jesus' family's alleged departure from their stint in Egypt was foretold with the quote, "Out of Egypt I called my son." However, that quote comes from Hosea 11:1, which is absolutely not foretelling anything of the sort. A simple look at the statement there within its surrounding context makes it abundantly clear that it is referring to the Israelites' alleged exodus from Egypt. One need not know who the writers were nor all the details surrounding the writings in order to see that the claim in Matthew 2:15 clearly rips the Hosea 11:1 quote completely out of context.

 

[LogicalFallacy]

 

     They're all false claims.  There is no such thing as *true* prophetic claims.

 

     Unless we're counting things like predicting the obvious, lucky guesses or after the fact claims and the like then the world is chock full of prophets.

 

          mwc

 

 

MWC what is your take on the Ezekiel Tyre prophesy? As far as I can tell it was written before Nebuchadnezzar attacked Tyre (Ezekiel later writes that Neb and his army got no reward or some such), and certainly before Alexander razed it. I, and any Christian can build a pretty solid case for it being a true prophesy, and I've never encountered a rebuttal to it that wasn't easily countered.

 

Below is the main parts of the prophesy, and the general Christian position in red.

 

Ezekiel 26King James Version (KJV)

 

³ Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.

Ancient Tyre was attacked many times, first by Nebuchadrezzar, then by Alexander the Great. It was later successively attacked by others. A list of the attacks dating after the prophesy is provided:

·         Siege of Tyre (586–573 BC) by the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar II

·         Siege of Tyre (332 BC) by the Macedonians under Alexander the Great

·         Siege of Tyre (315–314 BC) by Antigonus I Monophthalmus

·         Siege of Tyre (996–998) by the Fatimids

·         Siege of Tyre (1111–1112) by the Crusaders under Baldwin I of Jerusalem

·         Siege of Tyre (1124) by the Venetians

·         Siege of Tyre (1187) by the Ayyubids under Saladin

 

Note that after 332 BC the city, though called Tyre, was no longer the city of the Tyrians - it was the new city built by Alexander. 

 

⁴ And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.

⁵ It shall be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God: and it shall become a spoil to the nations.

⁶ And her daughters which are in the field shall be slain by the sword; and they shall know that I am the Lord.

⁷ For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.

⁸ He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee.

⁹ And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers.

¹⁰ By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach.

¹¹ With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground.

 

This is the specific to Neb prophesy - Neb wreaked the Mainland portion of the city during a 13 year siege.

 

¹² And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water.

 

Alexander the great filled this part of the prophesy when he used stones from the mainland city to build a causeway out to island Tyre. He then proceeded to break down the walls and destroy the island city.

 

¹³ And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard.

¹⁴ And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the Lord have spoken it, saith the Lord God.

¹⁵ Thus saith the Lord God to Tyrus; Shall not the isles shake at the sound of thy fall, when the wounded cry, when the slaughter is made in the midst of thee?

¹⁶ Then all the princes of the sea shall come down from their thrones, and lay away their robes, and put off their broidered garments: they shall clothe themselves with trembling; they shall sit upon the ground, and shall tremble at every moment, and be astonished at thee.

¹⁷ And they shall take up a lamentation for thee, and say to thee, How art thou destroyed, that wast inhabited of seafaring men, the renowned city, which wast strong in the sea, she and her inhabitants, which cause their terror to be on all that haunt it!

¹⁸ Now shall the isles tremble in the day of thy fall; yea, the isles that are in the sea shall be troubled at thy departure.

¹⁹ For thus saith the Lord God; When I shall make thee a desolate city, like the cities that are not inhabited; when I shall bring up the deep upon thee, and great waters shall cover thee;

²⁰ When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;

²¹ I will make thee a terror, and thou shalt be no more: though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord God.

 

Alexander killed/ sold into slavery all the inhabitants. He built a new city  and immigrated other nationalities, thus the prophesy that Tyre would not be rebuilt and inhabited was fulfilled. Today modern Tyre (Sur) is not the rebuilt ancient city of Tyre. The city was so destroyed that we can't really tell where it used to be - the ruins today are ruins from the cities that Alexander and the Romans built, not the Tyrians.

 

 

[Joshpantera]

 

 

Further research shows that Ezekiel was a captive at the time Nebuchadnezzar was assaulting the Mid East. In my opinion, assuming the 'prophesy' was not written after the fact, and we can assume this to be true because he got things wrong in it, then it can be reasonably assumed that the writer at least knew of the potential for Nebuchadnezzar to attack Tyre. The  rest of the prediction is not far off.

 

I would have to say, of all the biblical prophesies this is the hardest to counter. I would advise not going up against someone proving this prophesy without having studied Tyre's history and understanding what Ezekiel is predicting.

 

Remember the Christian does apply much slight of hand. The key thing to nail down in any conversation with a Christian is whether they accept the prophesy would be fulfilled by Nebuchadnezzar (Per the bible) If they are informed they will say no, because in order for them to say the prophesy was fulfilled they need Alexander the Great razing the city 300 years later. If they do mention this, ask why is Nebuchadnezzar, who never destroyed the city, mentioned by name, but Alexander the great was not? Was it perhaps because the writer was predicting things for his time with people he knew about?

 

If I was allowed I'd post a conversation between a Christian on youtube and myself debating this. I think I've done poorly because of not being prepared enough and researching on the go. This is a major prophesy for Christians, thus they are well researched in apologetic. You need to research those same apologetic to counter the claim.

 

Has anyone else had much experience with this Tyre prophesy?

 

PS: mentioning the rest of Ezekiel prophesies that he clearly got wrong does nothing to dissuade the Christian of the argument for the Tyre prophesy.  

 

The entire OT is a post Babylonian Exile event. Nothing exists today that wasn't written after the exile. And the oldest translation is the Septuagint from Alexandria. So in any event everything in the OT was filtered through this process. And Just like Daniel has clues of being written way, way after the supposed time, the same is probably true here as well. 

[mwc]

 

 

MWC what is your take on the Ezekiel Tyre prophesy? As far as I can tell it was written before Nebuchadnezzar attacked Tyre (Ezekiel later writes that Neb and his army got no reward or some such), and certainly before Alexander razed it. I, and any Christian can build a pretty solid case for it being a true prophesy, and I've never encountered a rebuttal to it that wasn't easily countered.

 

Below is the main parts of the prophesy, and the general Christian position in red.

 

Ezekiel 26King James Version (KJV)

 

³ Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.

Ancient Tyre was attacked many times, first by Nebuchadrezzar, then by Alexander the Great. It was later successively attacked by others. A list of the attacks dating after the prophesy is provided:

·         Siege of Tyre (586–573 BC) by the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar II

·         Siege of Tyre (332 BC) by the Macedonians under Alexander the Great

·         Siege of Tyre (315–314 BC) by Antigonus I Monophthalmus

·         Siege of Tyre (996–998) by the Fatimids

·         Siege of Tyre (1111–1112) by the Crusaders under Baldwin I of Jerusalem

·         Siege of Tyre (1124) by the Venetians

·         Siege of Tyre (1187) by the Ayyubids under Saladin

 

Note that after 332 BC the city, though called Tyre, was no longer the city of the Tyrians - it was the new city built by Alexander. 

 

⁴ And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.

⁵ It shall be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God: and it shall become a spoil to the nations.

⁶ And her daughters which are in the field shall be slain by the sword; and they shall know that I am the Lord.

⁷ For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.

⁸ He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee.

⁹ And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers.

¹⁰ By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach.

¹¹ With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground.

 

This is the specific to Neb prophesy - Neb wreaked the Mainland portion of the city during a 13 year siege.

 

¹² And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water.

 

Alexander the great filled this part of the prophesy when he used stones from the mainland city to build a causeway out to island Tyre. He then proceeded to break down the walls and destroy the island city.

 

¹³ And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard.

¹⁴ And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the Lord have spoken it, saith the Lord God.

¹⁵ Thus saith the Lord God to Tyrus; Shall not the isles shake at the sound of thy fall, when the wounded cry, when the slaughter is made in the midst of thee?

¹⁶ Then all the princes of the sea shall come down from their thrones, and lay away their robes, and put off their broidered garments: they shall clothe themselves with trembling; they shall sit upon the ground, and shall tremble at every moment, and be astonished at thee.

¹⁷ And they shall take up a lamentation for thee, and say to thee, How art thou destroyed, that wast inhabited of seafaring men, the renowned city, which wast strong in the sea, she and her inhabitants, which cause their terror to be on all that haunt it!

¹⁸ Now shall the isles tremble in the day of thy fall; yea, the isles that are in the sea shall be troubled at thy departure.

¹⁹ For thus saith the Lord God; When I shall make thee a desolate city, like the cities that are not inhabited; when I shall bring up the deep upon thee, and great waters shall cover thee;

²⁰ When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;

²¹ I will make thee a terror, and thou shalt be no more: though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord God.

 

Alexander killed/ sold into slavery all the inhabitants. He built a new city  and immigrated other nationalities, thus the prophesy that Tyre would not be rebuilt and inhabited was fulfilled. Today modern Tyre (Sur) is not the rebuilt ancient city of Tyre. The city was so destroyed that we can't really tell where it used to be - the ruins today are ruins from the cities that Alexander and the Romans built, not the Tyrians.

 

 

     Looks pretty bad.  Except god tells exactly what's going to happen in this prophecy doesn't he?

 

     He says in v7 that he's bring Nebby from the north (a huge army of the nations because it's not a small army of some locals).  He then says all they're going to do in the following verses.  And then in v14 the end result.  And that the whole place will be nothing more than a place to spread out fish nets.  Just a wasteland.  Nothing.

 

     If the plan is wave after wave over millennia then this prophecy makes little sense.  God is going to utterly desolate them but he's not going to utterly desolate them so he can utterly desolate them a little later but not really so he can later and so on?  Are they utterly desolated or not?  Is it only suitable for spreading out fishnets or not?  It appears not because they rebuilt and went on with life.

 

     It's a logical fallacy to think that it's an ongoing cycle of destruction since it states that Nebby's siege will end in total destruction.  A person has to reimagine what the idea of the idea of wave of many nations thing means so they can then say that this means Tyre will be attacked over a long period by different countries culminating in desolation and Nebby's attack is the first of these many for this to work.  It ignores the fact that sieges were done in waves.  Attack.  Retreat.  Wait.  Attack.  And so on.  Attacking in waives (unless we're talking a war of attrition where they'd just cut of their supplies and starve them out but that's not what's being mentioned).

 

     The reason that the whole prophecy ends in failure is that Tyre pays tribute so Nebby packs up and moves on.  They're not reduced to nothing.  So our prophet was likely writing during the time of the siege.  They anticipated the fall of the city not the payment of tribute.  They should have burned the books once they shit the bed but that didn't happen.  We know they kept writing.  They went on about Sidon.  And Egypt.  They kept getting it all wrong.  They couldn't predict what was going on with Nebby as hard as they tried.

 

          mwc

 

[Wertbag]

The other thing to consider is the volume of prophecies. There were dozens of prophets writing at the same time you just don't hear about the others as their guesses were completely wrong. With enough guesses eventually someone is going to get something right.  Whereas if Nebby hadn't won we would be talking about the great prophet Bob and his prediction of Tyre's great victory, Ezikiel's writings would have been consigned the fire.

 

Also Ez says Tyre will be flooded, covered by great waters and yet it remains dry to this day.

[LogicalFallacy]

Here is my response (Remember my Christian hat is in red)

 

 

     Looks pretty bad.  Except god tells exactly what's going to happen in this prophecy doesn't he?

 

     He says in v7 that he's bring Nebby from the north (a huge army of the nations because it's not a small army of some locals).  He then says all they're going to do in the following verses.  And then in v14 the end result.  And that the whole place will be nothing more than a place to spread out fish nets.  Just a wasteland.  Nothing...

 

   It's a logical fallacy to think that it's an ongoing cycle of destruction since it states that Nebby's siege will end in total destruction.  A person has to reimagine what the idea of the idea of wave of many nations thing means so they can then say that this means Tyre will be attacked over a long period by different countries culminating in desolation and Nebby's attack is the first of these many for this to work.  It ignores the fact that sieges were done in waves.  Attack.  Retreat.  Wait.  Attack.  And so on.  Attacking in waives (unless we're talking a war of attrition where they'd just cut of their supplies and starve them out but that's not what's being mentioned)....

 

 

God doesn't say he will only bring in Neb. God starts of saying "many nations" will come wave after wave. Then comes the Neb specific part - the portion for the people of the time. At no time does God say that Neb would totally destroy Tyre with his attack alone. Neb's part ends at verse 11. God then switches to saying and "They" - they being the many nations at the start of the prophesy.

 

¹² And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water.

¹³ And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard.

¹⁴ And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the Lord have spoken it, saith the Lord God.

 

So it is at the end of the "They" that Tyre will be completely destroyed and a bare rock. Which ever way you want to claim this, it happened. Alexander so destroyed the city that a brand new one was built - it wasn't the ancient Tyre.

 

 

 

 

     If the plan is wave after wave over millennia then this prophecy makes little sense.  God is going to utterly desolate them but he's not going to utterly desolate them so he can utterly desolate them a little later but not really so he can later and so on?  Are they utterly desolated or not?  Is it only suitable for spreading out fishnets or not?  It appears not because they rebuilt and went on with life.

 

The utterly desolate them will be in "waves" so the prophesy makes sense. And the rebuilt city was not Tyre - they called it another name, imported different peoples etc. The ancient city and its people were completely destroyed.

 

 

The reason that the whole prophecy ends in failure is that Tyre pays tribute so Nebby packs up and moves on.  They're not reduced to nothing.  So our prophet was likely writing during the time of the siege.  They anticipated the fall of the city not the payment of tribute.  They should have burned the books once they shit the bed but that didn't happen.  We know they kept writing.  They went on about Sidon.  And Egypt.  They kept getting it all wrong.  They couldn't predict what was going on with Nebby as hard as they tried.

 

          mwc

 

Yes exactly - Tyre pays tribute - this is part of the nations getting the spoils of Tyre.

 

(At this point I think this is a poor argument - the spoils are referring to sacking the city and taking its plunder.)

 

 

The other thing to consider is the volume of prophecies. There were dozens of prophets writing at the same time you just don't hear about the others as their guesses were completely wrong. With enough guesses eventually someone is going to get something right.  Whereas if Nebby hadn't won we would be talking about the great prophet Bob and his prediction of Tyre's great victory, Ezikiel's writings would have been consigned the fire.

 

Also Ez says Tyre will be flooded, covered by great waters and yet it remains dry to this day.

 

That's a good point wertbag. We only read the select few books out of many that claimed to be revelations from God. In selecting Ezekiel the bible founders would have been aware of the Tyre prophesy and that it was easily defended. Today it is the "go to" prophesy for Christians because if that one is plausibly correct, then hey all prophesies are correct right?

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

Today it is the "go to" prophesy for Christians because if that one is plausibly correct, then hey all prophesies are correct right?

 

I'm sure they think that, but it really doesn't follow.

 

When a psychic makes 100 predictions for the coming year and gets one right, does that automatically mean that all the ones he/she got wrong are to be seen as right, too? And does it mean that he/she really has authentic psychic power? Of course not; by sheer statistical probability, it's not at all surprising that one making a whole bunch of predictions could get lucky on one of them. In the same way, even if one of the Bible's plethora of predictions turned out to hit the mark, it would be no more amazing than the one thing the psychic happened to get right.

 

Though I've seen a video that seemed convincing about there being serious problems with the claim of the Tyre prophecy being fulfilled, I've never studied the matter in depth myself. However, I have studied enough of the Bible's claimed prophetic fulfillments to see a pattern of Bible authors manipulating things by taking quotes completely out of context in order to fabricate fulfillments. That completely undermines the whole notion of Biblical prophecy for me, and therefore I saw no need to continue digging in other areas. The Bible is bullshit, even if there may be one or two things that one of the authors predicted that just happened to come true.

 

[Joshpantera]

 

We only read the select few books out of many that claimed to be revelations from God. In selecting Ezekiel the bible founders would have been aware of the Tyre prophesy and that it was easily defended. Today it is the "go to" prophesy for Christians because if that one is plausibly correct, then hey all prophesies are correct right?

 

But all prophecies are not correct. See the opening post and follow the link. That's where the responses to christians should be focused. We have here wave, after wave, after wave of blatantly false prophecies and after the fact writings that try and shoe horn their way into working. They have no benefit from hugging to this Tyre thing. And ultimately this Tyre thing is no different than any other myriad of problems described in the link, in fact it falls right in line with the rest. They list a plethora of problems with Ezekiel as they cover the entire bible: 

 

1.  

2. Ezekiel
   
    

3. "Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy." 13:2

    

4. God deceives some of his prophets and then kills them for believing his lies. 14:9

    

5. Ezekiel prophesies that Tyrus will be completely destroyed by Nebuchadrezzar and will never be built again. But it wasn't destroyed, as evidenced by the visits to Tyre by Jesus and Paul (Mt 15:21,Mk 7:24, 31, Acts 21:3).  26:14,21, 27:36, 28:19

    

6. Ezekiel prophesies that Israel will reside in its homeland safely and securely, never again to fight neighboring nations. 28:24-26

    

7. Ezekiel makes another false prophecy: that Egypt would be uninhabited by humans or animals for forty years after being destroyed by Nebuchadrezzar. But there was never a time when Egypt was uninhabited. Humans and animals have lived there continuously since Ezekiel's prophecy. 29:10-11

    

8. "The day of the LORD is near ... it shall be the time of the heathen." 30:3

    

9. The rivers of Egypt (identified as the Nile in NIV, NASB, and RSV) shall dry up. This has never occurred. 30:12

    

10. Ezekiel prophesies God will protect the Israelites from "the heathen". "And they shall be safe in their land." But the Israelites have never lived peacefully with their neighbors, and they've never been safe from attack. 34:28-29

     

11. "And David my servant shall be king over them."
    How's that supposed to happen? David had been dead (if he ever lived) for more than 400 years when these words were written. 37:24

     

12. "Thou shalt come up against my people of Israel ... in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me ... O Gog." 38:16

     

13. The prophecy about Gog and Magog has been interpreted dozens of different ways; none of them came to pass. Goths, Huns, Saracens, Tatars, Scythians, Hitler, Russia, and Sadam Husein -- all these and more have been identified as the fulfillment of this prophecy. 39:1-29

[LogicalFallacy]

 

 However, I have studied enough of the Bible's claimed prophetic fulfillments to see a pattern of Bible authors manipulating things by taking quotes completely out of context in order to fabricate fulfillments. That completely undermines the whole notion of Biblical prophecy for me, and therefore I saw no need to continue digging in other areas. The Bible is bullshit, even if there may be one or two things that one of the authors predicted that just happened to come true.

 

 

Agreed, but when debating this with a Christian this line of reasoning doesn't sway much so I'm looking for a decent argument against this one prophesy as it pops up a lot.... hence me challenging Ex-C members to come up with a solid argument against it that I think would make even the guy I'm debating with atm stop and think.

 

There are several lines one can argue against the prophesy from an historical perspective, but they all break down at some point.. or so I've found. It could be my bad arguing skills

[mwc]

 

Here is my response (Remember my Christian hat is in red)

 

 

God doesn't say he will only bring in Neb. God starts of saying "many nations" will come wave after wave. Then comes the Neb specific part - the portion for the people of the time. At no time does God say that Neb would totally destroy Tyre with his attack alone. Neb's part ends at verse 11. God then switches to saying and "They" - they being the many nations at the start of the prophesy.

 

¹² And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water.

¹³ And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard.

¹⁴ And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the Lord have spoken it, saith the Lord God.

 

So it is at the end of the "They" that Tyre will be completely destroyed and a bare rock. Which ever way you want to claim this, it happened. Alexander so destroyed the city that a brand new one was built - it wasn't the ancient Tyre.

 

 

 

The utterly desolate them will be in "waves" so the prophesy makes sense. And the rebuilt city was not Tyre - they called it another name, imported different peoples etc. The ancient city and its people were completely destroyed.

 

 

Yes exactly - Tyre pays tribute - this is part of the nations getting the spoils of Tyre.

 

(At this point I think this is a poor argument - the spoils are referring to sacking the city and taking its plunder.)

 

     Then the "I" in the prophecy wasn't god it was Alexander the Great?  Because it's first person after all.  If "they" refers to the "nations" and the "nations" should include the Greeks then the "I" should be god personally doing that thing but it wasn't god.  It was the Greeks.  So we're starting to just play semantic games at this point.

 

     The nations of the world were the nations that were in Nebby's army.  All the many nations that he had conquered and otherwise absorbed into his neo-Babylon empire.  And they were the ones in the prophecy.  Just as if we simply assume it was Alexander's army it would be the many nations he also did this to.  It's all the same.  They unified the world under their empires.  And they came after Tyre.  Only the prophecy doesn't mention Alex it mentions Nebby.  And it keeps on mentioning him in one failed prediction, not prophecy, after the next.

 

     But even if we go your route the city isn't gone.  In that it's not a bare rock that they're spreading fish nets upon.  There's something there.  If you want to call it Tyre 2.0 or whatever it's not what is described.  That's what matters.  It doesn't say it will be left a barren rock for fishnets for a certain time and then people will rebuild but we should remember that this new place really isn't the original Tyre so there.  What about places like San Fransisco or Chicago that have had earthquakes and fires that destroyed them?  We don't simply call the new rebuilt cities frauds.  They're not the originals but few ancient cities are.  We don't discount Rome for not still having the original nearly 3000 year old buildings in operation.  It's still Rome.  And I can't think of their names but I know their are examples of cities that have actually moved but retained their names.  That's more of an issue than simply rebuilding as Tyre has.  Because, I said when I started, rebuilding wasn't even an option in the prophecy.

 

          mwc

 

[LogicalFallacy]

 

     Then the "I" in the prophecy wasn't god it was Alexander the Great?  Because it's first person after all.  If "they" refers to the "nations" and the "nations" should include the Greeks then the "I" should be god personally doing that thing but it wasn't god.  It was the Greeks.  So we're starting to just play semantic games at this point.

 

Oooh good point here. The problem I'm currently facing is I have said the prophesy says Neb will do the destroying, but I know the counter that will come will be the "They nations" in the verses preceding and after the Neb part. If they argue that your point above is a very good point because it shows at that point we are talking semantics not facts. +1 for good point.

 

 

 

 

     The nations of the world were the nations that were in Nebby's army.  All the many nations that he had conquered and otherwise absorbed into his neo-Babylon empire.  And they were the ones in the prophecy.  Just as if we simply assume it was Alexander's army it would be the many nations he also did this to.  It's all the same.  They unified the world under their empires.  And they came after Tyre.  Only the prophecy doesn't mention Alex it mentions Nebby.  And it keeps on mentioning him in one failed prediction, not prophecy, after the next.

 

Again, a good point - while the Christian MUST interpret the "they, and nations" as separate empires (When it suits) you can also easily interpret the many nations as those that Nebs empire was made up of.

 

 

 

     But even if we go your route the city isn't gone.  In that it's not a bare rock that they're spreading fish nets upon.  There's something there.  If you want to call it Tyre 2.0 or whatever it's not what is described.  That's what matters.  It doesn't say it will be left a barren rock for fishnets for a certain time and then people will rebuild but we should remember that this new place really isn't the original Tyre so there.  What about places like San Fransisco or Chicago that have had earthquakes and fires that destroyed them?  We don't simply call the new rebuilt cities frauds.  They're not the originals but few ancient cities are.  We don't discount Rome for not still having the original nearly 3000 year old buildings in operation.  It's still Rome.  And I can't think of their names but I know their are examples of cities that have actually moved but retained their names.  That's more of an issue than simply rebuilding as Tyre has.  Because, I said when I started, rebuilding wasn't even an option in the prophecy.

 

          mwc

 

 

I've tried this line of reasoning but keep getting "you are confusing the ancient city that was prophesied against with the modern city with KFC in it" thrown at me, which when you study the history of the city makes sense if you interpret it that way. 

[mwc]

 

 

Oooh good point here. The problem I'm currently facing is I have said the prophesy says Neb will do the destroying, but I know the counter that will come will be the "They nations" in the verses preceding and after the Neb part. If they argue that your point above is a very good point because it shows at that point we are talking semantics not facts. +1 for good point.

 

 

 

Again, a good point - while the Christian MUST interpret the "they, and nations" as separate empires (When it suits) you can also easily interpret the many nations as those that Nebs empire was made up of.

 

 

I've tried this line of reasoning but keep getting "you are confusing the ancient city that was prophesied against with the modern city with KFC in it" thrown at me, which when you study the history of the city makes sense if you interpret it that way. 

     So when god destroys something is it destroyed or not?

 

     Is god going to destroy hell and satan (and all that other nonsense) in the final apocalyptic battle?  And, if so, will it be finished?  Over with?  Forever?  Or will there be a hell and satan (and demons and unbelievers, etc.) 2.0?  Will this all get rebuilt?  Sure, not the original necessarily but still all the same things rising like a phoenix out of their ashes with their same names/identities?  If this is not the case then why is it allowed with places like Tyre?  Why is this prophecy different? 

 

     If god can't be consistent then we cannot know, for certain, that the ultimate end is truly the ultimate end and all the evil that will be laid waste will truly be done away with and won't come back then either.  Either these things are destroyed or they're not.  They're not destroyed according to some way of interpretation or they're not.  I'd hate to think satan was gone forever only to find yet another had risen up in his place.  The new one may be different from the old but evil is evil.  And satan plus KFC sounds like extra evil not less.  No matter how you slice it it's simply not any sort of satan whatsoever which is the prophecy.

 

     Likewise there is a city called Tyre in the same location as Tyre and the prediction is pretty clear as to what should be there and what it says should be there is not there.  The only thing that can be there now, out of all things, is what Ezekiel says.  It can't be a city.  A park.  A garbage dump.  A trailer park.  An opium den.  A zoo.  An anything.  Except...a rock where fish nets are spread out.  That's it.  And it's not that.  I don't care if it was that for any length of time or not because that's what it's supposed to always be.  That's the prophecy.  If it's not that then the prophecy got it wrong.  It might have come close but prophecies are an all or nothing sport.

 

          mwc

 

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

Agreed, but when debating this with a Christian this line of reasoning doesn't sway much

 

Yeah, but those who don't care about the plethora of glaring problems apparently don't really care about the truth, so I don't see how you'd get anywhere with them anyway. I guess it's possible, but it doesn't seem likely to me.

 

I do understand wanting to have responses ready, though, and it appears that mwc has given some good ammunition.