A reality check to the newly deconverted.

[RealityCheck]

The following may not apply to someone who came from a virulent/toxic strain of Christianity.  For those individuals, breaking away from those circles can only be an improvement.  If you come from a moderate form of the faith like me, then I've found the following to be true.

1.  Atheists will let you down at the same rate as Christians.  Many, including myself have made the assumption a lack of belief = better human beings but this isn't the case.  Thinking otherwise will only leave you disappointed.  The advantage that we get from a lack of belief is the ability to work out our shortcomings with a foundation in reality though.

2.  Atheist will still hold other irrational beliefs.  A quick tour of this forum will quickly confirm that.  This must be accepted as yet another quirk of human nature.

3.  Completely purging your Christian friends is not a wise choice.  Some (including myself again) have done this out of rebellion.  If they are entirely defined by religion (all they talk about is Jesus) then yeah, there isn't really a reason to associate with them.  However, if they don't meet that criteria then you must apply the last part of point two to them as well.  Recently, these Christians have lifted me up when non believers let me down so reconnecting with them was a good idea.

It might be difficult to adhere to these right now because you're filled with emotions.  However, at least in my experience, accepting these early on would have spared me some grief.  Once again, this might only apply of you escaped a moderate or liberal strain of Christianity like I did.  If you came from a toxic fundy background then chances are points 1 and 3 do not apply. 

[hockeyfan70]

Good points. In my case, my Christian friends purged me but I'm ok with it.

[ag_NO_stic]

I just wish it didn't have to be family. That is going to be very painful, when the time comes.

[Ablemate]

I think you should consider the saying: You Can Choose Your Friends But Not Your Family.

However your family should consider whether a book of dubious origin really is right when it tells them to dump family for not sharing their poorly chosen beliefs. Yes it will hurt but keep fighting by sending them info on the spurious bible crap.

Keep pointing out the contradictions ie turn the other cheek, love your enemy etc.

And remember you do have friends and can make new ones who will not dictate what you think or believe in.

[florduh]

Yes, it is unfortunate that religion can ruin friendships and families. This is not the fault of the one who does not believe. Read that again.

 

Some people, family members or even a spouse, may be in a toxic and virulent form of fundamentalism. There is no way a rational person can make that relationship work. You may lie to technically maintain it, but it doesn't work as a real relationship. People who won't accept anyone with a differing opinion are not worth having in your life, in fact they are detrimental.

 

I have plenty of Christian friends, and yet there are a few I can never have any sort of relationship with. It's all up to them.

[Guest]

This is good advice, in particular the point about not burning all your bridges with Christians if you find common ground outside Christianity.

@florduh Thanks for that because it's an important point, I've seen it time and again when all the blame is put on the person leaving, for ruining relationships and families. If there's anything I'm grieving, it's the loss of genuine relationships with some family members. It can't and it wont ever be the same again.

[Joshpantera]

 

The following may not apply to someone who came from a virulent/toxic strain of Christianity.  For those individuals, breaking away from those circles can only be an improvement.  If you come from a moderate form of the faith like me, then I've found the following to be true.

1.  Atheists will let you down at the same rate as Christians.  Many, including myself have made the assumption a lack of belief = better human beings but this isn't the case.  Thinking otherwise will only leave you disappointed.  The advantage that we get from a lack of belief is the ability to work out our shortcomings with a foundation in reality though.

2.  Atheist will still hold other irrational beliefs.  A quick tour of this forum will quickly confirm that.  This must be accepted as yet another quirk of human nature.

3.  Completely purging your Christian friends is not a wise choice.  Some (including myself again) have done this out of rebellion.  If they are entirely defined by religion (all they talk about is Jesus) then yeah, there isn't really a reason to associate with them.  However, if they don't meet that criteria then you must apply the last part of point two to them as well.  Recently, these Christians have lifted me up when non believers let me down so reconnecting with them was a good idea.

It might be difficult to adhere to these right now because you're filled with emotions.  However, at least in my experience, accepting these early on would have spared me some grief.  Once again, this might only apply of you escaped a moderate or liberal strain of Christianity like I did.  If you came from a toxic fundy background then chances are points 1 and 3 do not apply. 

@RealityCheck

1. That's an odd assumption to make. Do many people make that assumption? It seems a far cry from understanding that many atheists are actually much more morally responsible than many theists, to then assuming that lack of belief automatically = better human beings. I've not heard too many people make that assumption. It's usually the other way around - they expect atheists = worse human beings and are then surprised to find out that that's not always the case. One perspective could bring you down, the other perspective could raise you up. You went straight to choosing the later, I wonder why? 

 

2. Lack of belief in gods but other irrational beliefs? Most atheists are pretty hard edge about not believing in anything unproven. And more often than not, when people accuse atheists of having beliefs it usually turns out that it's not actually beliefs in question, but some type of straw man raised to try and claim the atheist has irrational belief like theists do. Do you have examples of this claim? And do those examples actually break down to irrational positive beliefs by atheists?  

 

3. I agree, that probably isn't a wise choice. No more than you're first two assumptions you've raised. 

 

Is this type of judgment and assumption common to liberal / moderate christians deconverting, or maybe just someone who naturally chooses the most depressive outlook given the opportunity? 

 

 

 

 

[RealityCheck]

 

@RealityCheck

1. That's an odd assumption to make. Do many people make that assumption? It seems a far cry from understanding that many atheists are actually much more morally responsible than many theists, to then assuming that lack of belief automatically = better human beings. I've not heard too many people make that assumption. It's usually the other way around - they expect atheists = worse human beings and are then surprised to find out that that's not always the case. One perspective could bring you down, the other perspective could raise you up. You went straight to choosing the later, I wonder why? 

 

2. Lack of belief in gods but other irrational beliefs? Most atheists are pretty hard edge about not believing in anything unproven. And more often than not, when people accuse atheists of having beliefs it usually turns out that it's not actually beliefs in question, but some type of straw man raised to try and claim the atheist has irrational belief like theists do. Do you have examples of this claim? And do those examples actually break down to irrational positive beliefs by atheists?  

 

3. I agree, that probably isn't a wise choice. No more than you're first two assumptions you've raised. 

 

Is this type of judgment and assumption common to liberal / moderate christians deconverting, or maybe just someone who naturally chooses the most depressive outlook given the opportunity? 

 

 

 

 

1.  People make that "grass is greener on the other side" assumption all the time.  How many posts on this site that bash Christian behavior?  Do you not believe the newly deconverted not want to flee those social circles for something else?  You only do this if you perceive that the alternative is better than what you have now.  Do you actually interact much on a personal level with anyone here? 

2.  Based on your post history, you frequent the Spirituality forum, I think you'll find plenty of examples there.  However, the the irrational beliefs that I am referring to don't necessarily pertain to alternate forms of spirituality.  Any notion that the non religious are mostly rational went out the window this last election season.  I left an atheist organization up in Miami because their Trump derangement syndrome was out of hand.  It was unsubstantiated claim after unsubstantiated claim, hysteria about being deported (though they were US citizens/residents), etc.  You will find this mindset extremely common when debating social issues and politics.  Now don't get me wrong, there are rational atheists here, some backed me up when I got into a debate during the BLM debacles of last summer.  However other than a belief in the Christian God, I found Atheists as irrational about certain topics as the rest of the population.  If a newly deconverted person is expecting more objectivity in all areas like I was, I think they're a tad SOL.

3. Okay.

As for the last question, expand on what you mean please. 

[Ablemate]

Hi

I thought Xians were deconverting because they are finding out how bad Xianity is. Full of lies, hypocrisy and arrogance in righteousness. They may hope to find something better but does that have to be atheists? Isn't agnosticism better and more optimistic for deconverting Xians?

people are people. I've met self declared Buddhists who weren't very Buddhist IMO. All sorts of things make up a human being, not just their religion. I know fundys are obsessed but plenty of Xians just try to live a life of Xian values as they see them and are not bad people per se. However people have all sorts of interests like sports, hobbies, past times etc that don't necessarily have anything to do with their religious beliefs. Surely Xians don't just play sports with other Xians for example.

I understand what RC says about politics but this is similar to religion in that people are being indoctrinated by politicians and trusting them without sound basis. Politics can be deconstructed much like religion too. However, again, this is not related to atheism. You will find people of all beliefs on either side of a political debate.

[Lucy]

Atheists tend to be more rational and skeptical than other people in terms of analyzing supernatural claims. I haven't found this trait to extend to any other area with many atheists. In particular, most people will hold their political and cultural views as strongly as though it's their religion.

 

As for atheists or Christians being more or less likely to let you down, I don't hold one to be better than the other. Personality traits are more important than religion. I do find that people who constantly praise god or talk about what good Christians they are while making financial agreements are far more likely to screw you over than people who don't mention their religion. Atheists will definitely try to screw you over too, they just have different tells.

[Geezer]

Having had a long relationship with the Church of Christ & being indoctrinated into believing every word in the Bible was put there personally by God, it was a pure black & white issue for me. 

 

In other words it was either true or it wasn't.  Dr. Bart Ehrman's books quickly convinced me that the Bible isn't true. And when I discovered that my faith quickly evaporated. Fundamentalism is clearly the problem but, like I noted, the Bible & Christianity, in all it's various forms, is either true or it isn't & my years of research has convinced me none of it is true. 

 

I see see no purpose or value in worshipping theological myths or allowing them to rule my life. 

[MOHO]

 

Yes, it is unfortunate that religion can ruin friendships and families. This is not the fault of the one who does not believe. Read that again.

 

Some people, family members or even a spouse, may be in a toxic and virulent form of fundamentalism. There is no way a rational person can make that relationship work. You may lie to technically maintain it, but it doesn't work as a real relationship. People who won't accept anyone with a differing opinion are not worth having in your life, in fact they are detrimental.

 

I have plenty of Christian friends, and yet there are a few I can never have any sort of relationship with. It's all up to them.

 

I can attest to THAT!

 

Yet another Mrs. MOHO reference to follow:

 

I pointed out to her a few years ago that immediately disliking someone due to their differing opinion was, perhaps, a knee-jerk reaction that should be mitigated. Her reply was that her dislike of anyone different than her, or with differing opinions, means that she is a strong woman and that she finds this trait a positive one.

 

As someone who has learned to listen (not necessarily agree with) someone who presents a differing opinion in a respectful, constructive manor, my feeling is that anyone who cannot do so is displaying a touch of immaturity. Others seem to feel that if they do not go in to a discussion 100% full throttle and "shut the other side down" then they are displaying sings of weakness.

[MOHO]

 

This is good advice, in particular the point about not burning all your bridges with Christians if you find common ground outside Christianity.

@florduh Thanks for that because it's an important point, I've seen it time and again when all the blame is put on the person leaving, for ruining relationships and families. If there's anything I'm grieving, it's the loss of genuine relationships with some family members. It can't and it wont ever be the same again.

 

Indeed,

Mrs. MOHO's church lays it out there that the deconverted spouse will always be the one to ruin the relationship and leave. They do this so they can "pursue their sin".

 

If I ever man-up enough to walk it won't be to pursue anything but peace.

[Guest]

 

 

Indeed,

Mrs. MOHO's church lays it out there that the deconverted spouse will always be the one to ruin the relationship and leave. They do this so they can "pursue their sin".

I understand this because I am guilty of it. I accused family members of becoming distant and ruining our relationship when they left the church. I was immune to their pain, it was ALL about my pain. I cringe when I think of how incredibly self-centered and callous I was, in the face of all their pain. The upside of this: I know what's coming.

[Joshpantera]

 

1.  People make that "grass is greener on the other side" assumption all the time.  How many posts on this site that bash Christian behavior?  Do you not believe the newly deconverted not want to flee those social circles for something else?  You only do this if you perceive that the alternative is better than what you have now.  Do you actually interact much on a personal level with anyone here? 

2.  Based on your post history, you frequent the Spirituality forum, I think you'll find plenty of examples there.  However, the the irrational beliefs that I am referring to don't necessarily pertain to alternate forms of spirituality.  Any notion that the non religious are mostly rational went out the window this last election season.  I left an atheist organization up in Miami because their Trump derangement syndrome was out of hand.  It was unsubstantiated claim after unsubstantiated claim, hysteria about being deported (though they were US citizens/residents), etc.  You will find this mindset extremely common when debating social issues and politics.  Now don't get me wrong, there are rational atheists here, some backed me up when I got into a debate during the BLM debacles of last summer.  However other than a belief in the Christian God, I found Atheists as irrational about certain topics as the rest of the population.  If a newly deconverted person is expecting more objectivity in all areas like I was, I think they're a tad SOL.

3. Okay.

As for the last question, expand on what you mean please. 

 

I'm gonna try and understand this better. 

 

1) That may be the case, they may think it's better to go atheist as opposed to theist, but then the rest seems a bit of a leap. I'm not sure what the big let down is exactly? Is there some particular moral problem we face here or that you've witnessed abroad from atheists? I myself do interact on a personal level with several people here - on the forums and with messages. 

 

2) I do frequent the spirituality forum and I do go as philosophical pantheist. Which is a spiritual oriented atheist. I'm very open about that. But there's not a lot in the way of positive belief claims going on. There's speculation, experimentation with mystical things, and things of that nature. But not so much christian level beliefs based on absolute claims, which is what positive belief assertions generally consist of. Hey, pertaining to the outrage and violence of secular liberals, I completely get it. It looks bad. It really does. I'm some where betwee apolitical to a little libertarian than anything else, and I don't enjoy the antics from the far left much at all. Nor the far right for that matter. Two versions of the same thing in a lot of ways. Personally, I think I get what you're saying. I thought that you meant people here at ex-C, atheists were letting you down here. I found that to be an odd claim, but apparently that's not the claim you were making. So I can stand corrected on that point. 

 

I'll just add that these antics from the radical left, which does include a presence of atheism and the atheist organizations, is an example of mundane beliefs, political oriented beliefs. These may be irrational beliefs but they're mundane in nature. In terms of religious beliefs the atheist organizations are more or less quite sound. They're far more on top of their game with respect to religion than they are when it comes to the political sphere. So I'd like to say that people ought not let the political sphere sour the insights coming from the academic and religious sphere. Christians will sometimes do that to try and demean the credibility of left wing oriented academics, that bring us things like archaeological minimalism, liberal theologians making cases against accepted teachings, etc. 

 

My last segment was in response to your depressive sounding tone. But considering the issues with the atheist organization I think I know why you're depressed sounding. So that is something that perhaps is worthy of giving people a heads up on, and not expecting certain things from the organization level of atheism. I find myself having to agree to agree with you on that point. 

 

I guess I'm a little confused about how this pertains to liberal / moderate christians deconverting in particular. 

 

Aren't they generally also left wing and liberal bent in politics as well as in religion? Conservatives are generally right wing in both politics and religion, for the most part. And if so, generally speaking, why would liberal theists be surprised or disappointed at left wing political irrationality when that's the political environment that they've always been in anyways? In that case they'd be just the same politically, but will have gained a great deal in the academic religious sphere for having crossed over. The antics of the left shouldn't discourage them from atheism I wouldn't think, it's just more of the same old, same old.  

 

 

[Orbit]

 

@RealityCheck

1. That's an odd assumption to make. Do many people make that assumption? It seems a far cry from understanding that many atheists are actually much more morally responsible than many theists, to then assuming that lack of belief automatically = better human beings. I've not heard too many people make that assumption. It's usually the other way around - they expect atheists = worse human beings and are then surprised to find out that that's not always the case. One perspective could bring you down, the other perspective could raise you up. You went straight to choosing the later, I wonder why? 

 

2. Lack of belief in gods but other irrational beliefs? Most atheists are pretty hard edge about not believing in anything unproven. And more often than not, when people accuse atheists of having beliefs it usually turns out that it's not actually beliefs in question, but some type of straw man raised to try and claim the atheist has irrational belief like theists do. Do you have examples of this claim? And do those examples actually break down to irrational positive beliefs by atheists?  

 

3. I agree, that probably isn't a wise choice. No more than you're first two assumptions you've raised. 

 

Is this type of judgment and assumption common to liberal / moderate christians deconverting, or maybe just someone who naturally chooses the most depressive outlook given the opportunity? 

 

 

 

 

I'm just speaking to the last question, as an ex-liberal xtian. I had no expectations of atheists, though I did wonder where they got their morals from. I tend to think people are people; some will always let you down, religious or not. As regards #2, I have noticed black and white thinking about  social issues in some atheists, even though they pride themselves on their logic on religious topics. For #3, when your friends are liberal xtains I think they are more likely to accept your deconversion. It depends on the people, obviously, but I think fundies would be more judgmental. I didn't sever any relationships over religion, there was no need. So there's a view from another liberal ex-c, another datapoint fwiw.