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HisGrace

General "Why I Left the Church" Topic

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Welcome to the forum, @HisGrace,

 

You made some very good points and pointed out the illogical, inconsistent, irrational, emotional, and just plain icky aspects of the bable, as well as those who believe therein.

 

A.) Someone ELSE begin punished for petty shit that I did will prevent ME from being tortured forever. WTF?

 

B.) Some actions or thoughts (or lack thereof) are serious enough to punish you for eternity but the supreme being won't stop them. WTF?

 

C.) Inconsistencies with the one and only written communication, supposedly, from said supreme begin? If god really wrote, or even "inspired" those writings, would they not be perfect (or even clear) ???  WTF?

 

Hanging with the folks and living with their rules and trying to make them happy until you are out on your own is a very good plan. Unless, of course, they are abusive - which does not sound the case.

 

BTW: What is your MS/MA in?

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BTW: What is your MS/MA in?

 

Political science. 

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Political science. 

 

I hear the Trump administration is hiring!  :P

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I hear the Trump administration is hiring!  :P

 

Fake news! :lmao:

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I really enjoyed reading this post. Welcome to the forum, I am really excited to see more of your content!

 

As for a response, I only ever wondered why god could be jealous and we couldn't. I also always wondered why hell was even necessary, it seems cruel. It's only now that I see how many contradictory behaviors there are!

 

"Perfect love casts out fear..." unless you're god and use fear to get people to love you. Apparently it is patient, doesn't envy or boast, not proud. It's not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs....except for if you're god and you keep a record of every wrong, lose your shit over an apple, create beings to boast your own glory, and will send these beings to eternal torment for not finding this behavior acceptable...Where is the patience and the self control and the forgiveness?

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A lot of things spark a reverse "Come to Jesus" moment. It was studing & researching the origins & evolution of the Bible & Christianity that killed my faith. I found the secret that church leaders fear will become common knowledge. None of it is true! :o

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For me it always seemed weird how the Bible was put together. God nowhere ever outlined how he put the Bible together and why. He didn't list the books and their purposes, and he allowed for a lot of contextual information to be lost to the ages. More bizarrely, he decided that he was going to start getting people to write letters to each other and use these letters to teach his values. Once again, he did not specify which letters were cannon. The apostles never stated which letters were inspired and it was left to the church to hopefully figure out how to separate the wheat from the tares.

 

The points you brought up as well are ones that crossed my mind. For example, the death of Jesus on the cross and this being symbolic of the Jewish custom of sacrificing animals at the temple. Why was this symbolism needed? Wouldn't God know this symbolism would be lost on the vast majority of believers considering that the vast majority have been and will continue to be gentiles? Then you have to contrast this with the fact that the current evangelical and fundamentalist understanding of salvation differed from the early church. They believed in the ransom theory of atonement vs the substitutionary atonement most hold today. The above symbolism makes less sense when you consider the fact that Jesus died for completely different reasons than the original temple sacrifices (supposedly).

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For me it always seemed weird how the Bible was put together. God nowhere ever outlined how he put the Bible together and why. He didn't list the books and their purposes, and he allowed for a lot of contextual information to be lost to the ages. More bizarrely, he decided that he was going to start getting people to write letters to each other and use these letters to teach his values. Once again, he did not specify which letters were cannon. The apostles never stated which letters were inspired and it was left to the church to hopefully figure out how to separate the wheat from the tares.

 

The points you brought up as well are ones that crossed my mind. For example, the death of Jesus on the cross and this being symbolic of the Jewish custom of sacrificing animals at the temple. Why was this symbolism needed? Wouldn't God know this symbolism would be lost on the vast majority of believers considering that the vast majority have been and will continue to be gentiles? Then you have to contrast this with the fact that the current evangelical and fundamentalist understanding of salvation differed from the early church. They believed in the ransom theory of atonement vs the substitutionary atonement most hold today. The above symbolism makes less sense when you consider the fact that Jesus died for completely different reasons than the original temple sacrifices (supposedly).

 

And many of these theories & beliefs took as much as 1500 years to develop & become accepted. Inspite of popular belief the 4 gospels were not officially canonized at the Council of Nicea. The Gnostic's outnumbered the Orthodox so nothing was resolved. The Orthodox eventually killed off enough of the Gnostic's to take the majority position. Eventually the 4 gospels we have now were  just accepted by the faithful as true and were accepted as cannon.

 

There were 40 or 50 gospels to chose from by the time the Council of Nicea met. So choosing the right ones was anything but a slam dunk. And then there is the problem that none of them were true or historically accurate, not that that would have been a major problem.

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Thank you so much for your post!!!

 

I am glad I am not the only one who does not understand why someone else would have to die for me to be forgiven. That makes absolutely no sense at all. This is why I just can't believe it.

 

 

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Yep, we're supposed to turn the other cheek, but he demands payment for forgiveness, which means it isn't forgiveness.

 

He can burn people alive because he's holy, but holy people are kind and good and don't burn others alive. Evil sadistic cruel people do things like that. God of the Bible is evil.

 

Parents will spank a kid and send him/her to their room, or give them a time-out for disobedience. God of the Bible kills them. All of them. And ruins the planet. After setting them up for failure in the first place. God of the Bible is a vile bloodthirsty conniving shit.

 

Centuries of believers have wept genuine tears of anguish over being normal humans after being promised that they were born-again, pure, incorruptible, shining like stars in the dark sky. Some have cut off their genitals to try and stop lusting, when lusting is normal and part of procreation of all sexual creatures on Earth. There is nothing bad about it unless used to harm someone. Normal isn't bent or broken or displeasing to some petulant shit in the sky, it is normal, as he would know if he actually created us.

 

Church and religion in general is fucked up nonsense that destroys lives while having a veneer of respectable goodness. It is a mind virus that has polluted human kind for recorded history. Today it is responsible for untold cruelty, justified by the believers as destroying sin. We found our way out, and we need to find ways to unplug the faiths worldwide.

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11 hours ago, Fuego said:

Yep, we're supposed to turn the other cheek, but he demands payment for forgiveness, which means it isn't forgiveness.

 

He can burn people alive because he's holy, but holy people are kind and good and don't burn others alive. Evil sadistic cruel people do things like that. God of the Bible is evil.

 

Parents will spank a kid and send him/her to their room, or give them a time-out for disobedience. God of the Bible kills them. All of them. And ruins the planet. After setting them up for failure in the first place. God of the Bible is a vile bloodthirsty conniving shit.

 

Centuries of believers have wept genuine tears of anguish over being normal humans after being promised that they were born-again, pure, incorruptible, shining like stars in the dark sky. Some have cut off their genitals to try and stop lusting, when lusting is normal and part of procreation of all sexual creatures on Earth. There is nothing bad about it unless used to harm someone. Normal isn't bent or broken or displeasing to some petulant shit in the sky, it is normal, as he would know if he actually created us.

 

Church and religion in general is fucked up nonsense that destroys lives while having a veneer of respectable goodness. It is a mind virus that has polluted human kind for recorded history. Today it is responsible for untold cruelty, justified by the believers as destroying sin. We found our way out, and we need to find ways to unplug the faiths worldwide.

 

Bravo, @Fuego!

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On 13/07/2017 at 1:40 AM, ag_NO_stic said:

As for a response, I only ever wondered why god could be jealous and we couldn't.

 

I don't think this means jealousy in the same way we get jealous. I think the verse says something like God is jealous for our love (unless I'm mistaken), meaning God gets hurt if we go after other gods or even, no gods. I don't think it's a selfish jealousy tinged with bitterness that's being spoken of here. 

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Why did Jesus have to die for the sins of the world? This is one thought on the matter.

 

Because sin leads to death, spiritual (and physical; the Biblical reason for why everything is in decay). Sin entered the world through one 'man' so the parallel is that it leaves the world through one 'man'. One man brought sin in, so one man takes sin out. Jesus lived a sinless life, so was the perfect sacrifice. Why a human sacrifice? Well the human part is touched upon above, but also life and the loss of life is something we can all relate to and understand. We know our lives are precious, so this laying down of someone's life (when they really didn't need to do so - because they were sinless), is the ultimate show of love. Giving your life up so that others can continue to live. 

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5 hours ago, SeaJay said:

 

I don't think this means jealousy in the same way we get jealous. I think the verse says something like God is jealous for our love (unless I'm mistaken), meaning God gets hurt if we go after other gods or even, no gods. I don't think it's a selfish jealousy tinged with bitterness that's being spoken of here. 

 

The bible was written by men, men who imagined Gods, those gods were made in mans image thus they have human emotions. That's part of the issue with God - for a being beyond all humanity he sure acts like a human at times. This is best explained by: In the image of man god was created, male only created they him.

 

5 hours ago, SeaJay said:

Why did Jesus have to die for the sins of the world? This is one thought on the matter.

 

Because sin leads to death, spiritual (and physical; the Biblical reason for why everything is in decay). Sin entered the world through one 'man' so the parallel is that it leaves the world through one 'man'. One man brought sin in, so one man takes sin out. Jesus lived a sinless life, so was the perfect sacrifice. Why a human sacrifice? Well the human part is touched upon above, but also life and the loss of life is something we can all relate to and understand. We know our lives are precious, so this laying down of someone's life (when they really didn't need to do so - because they were sinless), is the ultimate show of love. Giving your life up so that others can continue to live. 

 

For a book that apparently abhors human sacrifice, the idea of Jesus being sacrificed to himself to save humanity from himself is rather ironic.

 

For this to make any sense Adam, Eve, Steve and Eden had to be real. While you might be able to realistically argue that Jesus was a real person, you cannot make the same argument for Adam and Eve.

 

Also the notion that we are all cursed because of the actions of one person, and therefore need a human sacrifice to save us for stuff we didn't do is abhorrent. Any being worth being called God should be more moral than this.

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I see you settled on the name HisGrace. Sin, Forgiveness, Grace, Substitionary Atonement, Heaven, & Hell are all things the Church created as part of their rewards, punishment, control scheme. None of those things are real. They are all manmade. That is especially true for sin. That is a concept that only exist in the religious world. There is no such thing as sin in the real world. In the real world criminal & civil law have replaced sin & if you break the law juries judge you not God. And the Supreme Court has ruled nobody can burn you alive forever.......that would be cruel & unusual punishment. So, you can stop being concerned about hell. 

 

:fdevil: :woohoo:

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On 8/6/2017 at 11:43 AM, SeaJay said:

 

I don't think this means jealousy in the same way we get jealous. I think the verse says something like God is jealous for our love (unless I'm mistaken), meaning God gets hurt if we go after other gods or even, no gods. I don't think it's a selfish jealousy tinged with bitterness that's being spoken of here. 

 

@LogicalFallacy already did a great job, but doesn't mean I want to ignore you by any means. The example I gave was my misunderstanding as a young child, when I remember reading about god being jealous and wondering why we weren't allowed. I have since heard the biblical reasoning and moved on to the more troubling forms of bible god's hypocrisy. All of that to say "jealous" is still a negative word, in my humble opinion, and the excuse wouldn't hold weight if I tried to explain away my insecure behavior as "being jealous for my husband's love." It is 100% selfish jealousy, he doesn't want any gods before himself. It is possessively, selfishly jealous.

 

On 8/6/2017 at 11:50 AM, SeaJay said:

Why did Jesus have to die for the sins of the world? This is one thought on the matter.

 

Because sin leads to death, spiritual (and physical; the Biblical reason for why everything is in decay). Sin entered the world through one 'man' so the parallel is that it leaves the world through one 'man'. One man brought sin in, so one man takes sin out. Jesus lived a sinless life, so was the perfect sacrifice. Why a human sacrifice? Well the human part is touched upon above, but also life and the loss of life is something we can all relate to and understand. We know our lives are precious, so this laying down of someone's life (when they really didn't need to do so - because they were sinless), is the ultimate show of love. Giving your life up so that others can continue to live. 

 

Your entire argument hinges on "sin" which I reject. What is sin? Stuff "god" doesn't like? How do we know "god" doesn't like it? Because a book claims to speak for "god" and defines things that "god" finds abhorrent? The entire christian argument depends ENTIRELY on the assumption of a god. You have to do mental acrobatics to fit broken arguments into the narrative. "God" has never introduced himself to me, smote me for "disobedience," or made clear what he does or does not like. Just because Joe Schmoe says that "god" says that Jesus is his son and that we need to be saved from things because he doesn't like them, via some ancient book, does not mean I have to listen to it. If the bible were historically accurate, or held truths unknown to people at the time it was written, or was morally appropriate/consistent, or even made into an audiobook narrated by Yahweh himself, I would not believe it until he showed up, said hi, and told me himself. Why, if "god is omnipotent" and "doesn't want me to go to hell" would it be unrealistic for me to expect basic interaction? Because perhaps he does not exist and you must now say that "god doesn't speak to us audibly" etc. And what sucks for you even more is that, according to you, "god" made my brain/skepticism this way and, also according to christianity, the gift of "faith" has apparently not been given to me. So lookin like there's nothing I can do anyway.

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2 hours ago, ag_NO_stic said:

And what sucks for you even more is that, according to you, "god" made my brain/skepticism this way and, also according to christianity, the gift of "faith" has apparently not been given to me. So lookin like there's nothing I can do anyway.

 

And add to that the verbiage in the bable stating that god is omnipotent and knew everything in advance. So we can't change anything anyway.

 

May as well enjoy life.

Hmmmmm it's almost grape juice time...:58:

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On 8/6/2017 at 11:50 AM, SeaJay said:

Because sin leads to death, spiritual (and physical; the Biblical reason for why everything is in decay). Sin entered the world through one 'man' so the parallel is that it leaves the world through one 'man'. One man brought sin in, so one man takes sin out. Jesus lived a sinless life, so was the perfect sacrifice. Why a human sacrifice? Well the human part is touched upon above, but also life and the loss of life is something we can all relate to and understand. We know our lives are precious, so this laying down of someone's life (when they really didn't need to do so - because they were sinless), is the ultimate show of love. Giving your life up so that others can continue to live. 

 

Okay, but none of that explains why Jesus had to die. He could have shown his love just through forgiveness, rather than self-flagellation. The core idea here is that a supposedly omnipotent god was bound by ritualism and for some reason needed a sacrifice to satiate his anger. In which case he wouldn't be omnipotent.  

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On 8/6/2017 at 11:06 PM, Geezer said:

I see you settled on the name HisGrace.

 

It's a reference to being a Duke and being called "His Grace". It's a username I use for things all the time, didn't realize the possible religious connotations on this site until later. 

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So glad you are here with us HG. We totally understand why you are here. And thank you very much  for sharing so many wonderful points in your post .  Looking forward to hearing more from you ! 

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6 hours ago, HisGrace said:

 

Okay, but none of that explains why Jesus had to die. He could have shown his love just through forgiveness, rather than self-flagellation. The core idea here is that a supposedly omnipotent god was bound by ritualism and for some reason needed a sacrifice to satiate his anger. In which case he wouldn't be omnipotent.  

 

I had a few replies but it always comes back to, why not just forgive.

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The explanation I have heard so often for Jesus having to die for our sins is related to a Jewish custom wherein a relative or friend could pay off a financial debt thus freeing the debtor from debtor's prison.

 

Of course, this concept differs from punishment which is intended to correct an unwanted behavior. This is were I personally take issue with the entire concept of someone else begin punished for my boo boo.

 

Just one of the many many concepts in the xtian doctrine that makes as much sense as a screen-door in a submarine.

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Why I left? In short. Looking at the bible and actual history, crap didnt add up. Then there’s the whole anti-gay thing, that really was the nail in the coffin for me. Then to top it off to learn how xtianity spread, i knew I didnt want any part of this evil cult anymore. 

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On 7/12/2017 at 3:38 PM, HisGrace said:

It's just an issue of someone suffering a loss and that loss being made right

 EXACTLY! Someone can pay a debt for someone else, and it makes it right for the person who was wronged. But someone cannot accept punishment for someone else, because -- as the old cliche goes -- two wrongs don't make a right! Their god can't possibly demand that a punishment is required for every sin against him, and that it doesn't matter whether the guilty party is the one punished or not, that he just has to punish somebody and everything will be back in balance.

 

Welcome aboard!

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