Insightful Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 I don't typically struggle with irrational thinking [ok, maybe sometimes... =)], but I can't seem to snap out of this little thought trap: Although I am confident enough in my reasons for doubting/disbelieving, I am not confident enough to press my wife to reconsider her faith (not that it's wise to do that anyway, but even in subtle, gentle ways) because I am worried that if I am wrong, I would be responsible for her going to hell. I know that's INSANE. I get it. But it governs me. I'm sure enough to say "screw Pascal and his wager." Pascal's wager doesn't scare me away from the my disbelief. But it scares me away from trying to influence my wife. I think it's because spending an eternity in hell - even though I suspect this risk is quite small! - PERSONALLY is not as terrifying as knowing for all eternity that my erroneous thinking and subsequent influence resulted in SOMEONE I LOVE spending eternity there. I don't fear God hurting me but I fear him hurting someone I love. It would be like if my bad driving caused me to lose an arm or leg in an accident. I could handle that psychologically a lot better than if my driving caused my wife to lose a limb - or her life. Can anyone relate?? If not, it's ok. You can just tell me I'm crazy =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 19, 2017 Super Moderator Share Posted July 19, 2017 You're still a struggling believer and you are invoking Pascal. If we assume for a moment that the absurd is in fact true, we can deduce from the religious narrative that mere mortal YOU are not strong enough to take her away from magic Jesus! Then again, better safe than sorry. After all, Christianity COULD be true. Islam COULD be true. Scientology COULD be true. Mormonism COULD be true. Bigfoot COULD be true. I guess it's not safe to inject any facts or reason regarding any of that. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOHO Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 @Insightful, I also struggle with influencing Mrs. MOHO against her faith, not because I think is any truth to any of it, but because she'll be devastated. Still further I was sad at first just after my deconversion but then began to enjoy the freedom that truth and thinking can reveal. I did express, at one point, that I would refrain from attempting to deconvert her due to the "what if" concept. I have gotten over that though so I think @florduh has a valid point. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 4 hours ago, Insightful said: I don't typically struggle with irrational thinking [ok, maybe sometimes... =)], but I can't seem to snap out of this little thought trap: Although I am confident enough in my reasons for doubting/disbelieving, I am not confident enough to press my wife to reconsider her faith (not that it's wise to do that anyway, but even in subtle, gentle ways) because I am worried that if I am wrong, I would be responsible for her going to hell. I know that's INSANE. I get it. But it governs me. I'm sure enough to say "screw Pascal and his wager." Pascal's wager doesn't scare me away from the my disbelief. But it scares me away from trying to influence my wife. I think it's because spending an eternity in hell - even though I suspect this risk is quite small! - PERSONALLY is not as terrifying as knowing for all eternity that my erroneous thinking and subsequent influence resulted in SOMEONE I LOVE spending eternity there. I don't fear God hurting me but I fear him hurting someone I love. It would be like if my bad driving caused me to lose an arm or leg in an accident. I could handle that psychologically a lot better than if my driving caused my wife to lose a limb - or her life. Can anyone relate?? If not, it's ok. You can just tell me I'm crazy =) Is your wife having issues because of her faith? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TABA Posted July 21, 2017 Moderator Share Posted July 21, 2017 Hi Insightful, your residual fear of hell is not crazy. I mean, it's unfounded, but it is understandable too. We are not always rational creatures by any means. We can fear things and at the same time know that the fear is unjustified. Getting theism out of your mind can be a long process and traces of it tend to hold on stubbornly. My wife is not averse to questioning some things. She has listened to some Bart Ehrman lectures with me and is inclined to learn more. But I don't think she could give up on god belief completely. I'm fine with there being no god or afterlife, but I don't know that she could go there. I would rather she be a happy believer than an unhappy atheist or agnostic. So even though I don't hide my own unbelief, I hesitate to sow those seeds of doubt... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag_NO_stic Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 What you're saying makes sense to me. There is a part of me that relates to what you're saying, but at the same time, I recognize that his belief or unbelief is his own decision. So I am not hesitant to really want my husband to want to find the truth for himself. I wouldn't care at ALL if he believed in god after he looked into the facts, but he just doesn't care enough to do it. This frustrates me, as someone who is not satisfied believing a comfortable lie. For whatever reason, I REALLY care about the truth over all else. Some people really don't have this as a priority. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 21, 2017 Super Moderator Share Posted July 21, 2017 People seem to come to unbelief by their own discoveries and efforts. I doubt anyone else can do it for them. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 My wife is still a believer. I was able to convince her to get away from fundamentalism & join a mainstream more liberal version of Christianity (Methodist) though. I don't feel a need to destroy anyone's faith as long as they don't get in my face about it. Liberal versions of Christianity tend to be pretty benign. They sort of are like religious country clubs in many ways. As as long as they aren't evangelicals I can co-exist with them. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 On 7/19/2017 at 0:23 PM, Insightful said: Although I am confident enough in my reasons for doubting/disbelieving, I am not confident enough to press my wife to reconsider her faith (not that it's wise to do that anyway, but even in subtle, gentle ways) because I am worried that if I am wrong, I would be responsible for her going to hell. I'm wondering why you feel that you have to do this? If there's nothing going on between the two of you then I'd just leave it alone. The best way to do this is just live by example. I noticed you live in OC. Just take her to Disneyland (odds are you're pass holders like the rest of us) and stay away from Saddleback. Disney's a better cult. Costs about the same, better hours and is more fun. Who knows we might even run into one another in "church" some day. mwc 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisGrace Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 Not sure how into theology you guys are, but most Christians think god knows who is going to heaven and hell before he creates them. So if she goes to hell, it's due to god's will, not you. Of course that leads to the question of why if "god so loved the world" he would create people knowing he would end up torturing them for eternity (one of the many things that lead me to where I am) but that's a separate issue. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOHO Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 8 hours ago, HisGrace said: Not sure how into theology you guys are, but most Christians think god knows who is going to heaven and hell before he creates them. So if she goes to hell, it's due to god's will, not you. Of course that leads to the question of why if "god so loved the world" he would create people knowing he would end up torturing them for eternity (one of the many things that lead me to where I am) but that's a separate issue. And related is the gist of Roman's 9 where god is said to "soften" the hearts of some so that they believe and go t heaven. God "hardens" the hearts of others so they don't believe and go to hell. So, whether god creates humans, knowing full well in advance the outcome, or intentionally influences the outcome, our fate is, according to the doctrine, in god's hands. Of course this tact was taken, by the framers of the bable, to resolve two issues: god is in control and is perfect and knew our fate ahead of time - because he is perfect and knows everything. It also attempts to explain why work around the fact that some if us have such strong B.S. sensors. They (framers of the bable) couldn't just be honest (or they did not know) that some are emotional and some are logical/reasonable/rational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insightful Posted August 1, 2017 Author Share Posted August 1, 2017 Thanks guys! I appreciate the thoughts and feedback. I agree with all of you who advise AGAINST trying to change another person's beliefs - the futility of it and the risk it presents to the relationship! And thanks for sympathizing with the disconnect between what I believe to be true vs what I'm conditioned to fear.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moxie Posted August 1, 2017 Share Posted August 1, 2017 Hello insightful! I personally believe that it is not our place as nonbelievers to try to convince, or plant seeds, or otherwise proselytize the way evangelicals do. It took me a very long time, 13 years, to finally realize there is no hell. I hope the best for you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgemi Posted August 2, 2017 Share Posted August 2, 2017 I can relate to the original post. For quite a while, I continued to take my kids to church (they went to Sunday school not knowing I was waiting in the car). After a while, I got tired of forcing them out of bed. So we haven't gone to church in several months and they haven't asked to go back. Also, at first, I was concerned about telling anyone my reasons for deconverting for fear of leading someone astray. Now I am aligned with those who say they will not push their beliefs on anyone unprompted, but if asked, would be glad to help someone unsee the "light." So my position has evolved, but no one here locally has asked about my status/beliefs so I have told no one. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted August 2, 2017 Share Posted August 2, 2017 I think it's important that non-believers not sit around a be utterly silent so as not to exist. I think they should "advertise" to the extent people know they exist (so like-minded others can know they're not alone) but I'm against proselytizing like xians where you bother people to seek recruits (usually by "love bombing" and offering an incomplete picture, like god is all-lovey dovey, until you've got that person on the hook, then god is also toss you into burning pit-y if you don't obey). Sadly, since xians only really understand proselytizing with intent to convert any time you simply mention you're say an atheist, or even dare talk about it meaning a life or universe sans a xian god, they think you're coming for them and theirs. mwc 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOHO Posted August 2, 2017 Share Posted August 2, 2017 If someone brings up the topic of religion and/or doconverting, AND is willing to LISTEN, then I let it rip. Those two things are usually not observed together, however. We should "advertise" with the intent of providing support to those who have/are deconverting. Not only is this a kind thing to do but political and community leaders will have to take us more seriously - the more of us there obviously are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 You're not wrong. That said, don't push. In my experience, if there is even a question of whether it's the right time or not, then it isn't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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